Hi, I'm Jeff Rea, your host for Economic Outlook.

Welcome to our show, where each week we take a deep dive into the regional economy and the people, the companies, the communities and projects that are helping our region grow.

A booming construction industry has created good career opportunities and construction trades is an enticing job market for many.

But like many industries, finding people to fill open positions is a real challenge.

We'll take a closer look at the construction trades and efforts to build its future workforce.

Coming up on Economic Outlook.

Help wanted signs are everywhere as employers are looking to find people to replace retiring workers or simply meet growing demand for the products and services.

The construction industry is no different and with significant demand for their services, employers are working hard to recruit and train the next generation of workers.

We're going to dove deeper into the industry today, Matt Ginter, construction operations manager with Midland Engineering Company.

Bill Wallace, the president and CEO of the Big C Lumber.

And Shawn O'Brien, the executive director of Michiana Builders Association, are my guests.

Just one other note before we get started here at WNIT.

We're respecting social distancing and as such have both our hosts and our guests joining us today virtually instead of in person.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining me today.

Appreciate you coming on.

Happy to be here.

Thank you for having us Yeah, so so we've got three great voices in the construction industry, and so I want to talk a little bit about really workforce and kind of preparing the next generation of workers.

But--but I also want to frame a little bit of who you are, who the experts are that we have on to.

So--so maybe if you would do a quick introduction.

So, Shawn, let me come your way first, and so tell us a little bit about the work that you do.

So I'm here today representing the Michiana Builders Association.

We have another entity, MACIAF.

It's an acronym that people may have heard of.

And we've been around for about one hundred years representing the large commercial builders in the area, people that build the tall buildings in South Bend, the people that build Notre Dame, we represent work with them, do advocacy on their behalf and basically represent and advance the construction industry in our region.

Great.

And Bill, let me come your way.

People know Big C or celebrating a big birthday this year, your 100th anniversary.

But for those who aren't familiar.

Tell us a little bit about Big C. So Big C Lumber's a family-owned company.

We're on our fourth generation, as you said, celebrating our 100th anniversary this year.

It's been in the same family for those a hundred years.

So quite a milestone and we're real excited about it.

We currently operate 50 retail locations and three manufacturing facilities in northern Indiana, southern Michigan.

We have one location in Ohio.

Great.

Thanks, Bill.

We look forward to hearing more from you as well.

Matt, let's come your way.

Tell us for people who don't know about Midland engineering, what Midland does.

We're a commercial roofing and sheet metal contractor, we work on pretty large buildings from Notre Dame campus.

One thing we do, too, is we travel all throughout the United States, do a lot of service work, really getting diverse and a lot of different systems we're doing these days with the green buildings and solar and just continually evolving with the industry.

Great.

Well, thank you, Matt, for being here and appreciate it.

Look forward to hearing about a few more--I've seen your resume as some of the great projects you've done around the country, some great buildings that people are familiar with.

And so we're going to chat more about that.

Shawn, let me come back your way and let's talk a little bit about just construction industry as a whole.

You know, kind of what's going on with it.

Where is it at?

Is this a busy time for folks?

Have--was the industry impacted severely by the pandemic?

You know, just kind of give us a feel for the economy and how construction is going right now?

Absolutely.

So the run into the pandemic, construction was fantastic in the area.

The best it's probably been in many years, at least on the commercial side.

And once the pandemic hit, without doubt, the impact on the economy impacted construction and things slowed down a bit.

But as we're coming out the other end of it and vaccines are taking hold and people are starting to be able to predict the future a little bit, construction's coming back and coming back strong.

We've been fortunate in our region that we didn't shut down as some other places around the country did.

From a construction standpoint, there are areas that stopped everything completely.

So we--we kept through it.

We were fortunate, too, that we steered our way through the pandemic pretty well without a lot of illness and need for shut down on job sites.

So we're predicting a fairly strong recovery.

When exactly that's going to hit?

It's starting now and we're hopeful that by third, fourth quarter this year, we might be back to something like normal anyway.

Great.

And Matt, let me come your way.

You talked about in your intro, not only is your company doing some significant projects here locally or in our region, but across the country.

So talk about just kind of the company and how you've navigated this past year and what business has been like for you.

Yeah, we've been kind of fortunate to have some reputation with contractors all throughout the United States.

So some of the larger projects came available in the southern states.

So we're-- we're mobilized right now in North Carolina doing a Publix grocery food chain distribution center.

We have one coming up for Aldi's in Loxley, Alabama.

We're doing a Clemens Foods in Hatfield Pennsylvania.

And we actually got our first job done at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee.

So we're excited about those.

That just makes my life a little harder trying to man it.

I currently have about 40 people on site in North Carolina and on average, on a good year I'll fly around about seventy five to one hundred, so we'll be exceeding that significantly.

So I got my work cut out for me on there.

Matt, has--have pandemic restrictions impacted you?

Are you--are you having to live by different rules in four different states, for example?

How has that impacted you?

Yeah, it has.

Like Sean kind of mentioned, there's certain areas that have shut down, like all work.

Looking at Michigan, for example, some of our projects up there were shut down for a while.

So going away from there and trying to keep people busy and then remobilizing once they opened up.

A lot of stuff we're seeing now, the impact is material shortages, which I'm sure Bill can share on that, too.

But I mean everything from insulation to wood to fasteners right now, it's--it's a headache trying to get it and get it lined up.

If even if you've got a purchase order written, it's up to the facilities to get the stuff fabricated and then even down to getting it delivered to job sites, the trucking industry is kind of taking a hit.

So they're having a hard time getting drivers to get the things, items on to job sites.

Great, Bill, let me come your way.

And Matt teased it there.

But, so you have a couple of challenges.

One, if you help us understand, you mentioned having 15 locations and--and having to navigate the pandemic and kind of--kind of how you did that, but,too, you have this need to meet the needs of--of me who's renovating my house at home and want some lumber and--and the Matts of the world who want it out on the job site as well?

Talk a little bit about how the pandemic has impacted that.

Yeah, so over 90 percent of our business goes to the professional.

We do a very large business with the do it yourselfer as well.

And, you know, at the beginning of last year, we started out very strong.

Course the pandemic hit, as Matt said, Michigan shut down.

Everybody sort of pulled back and was beginning to wonder, you know, when it might come back.

We were hunkering down.

And lo and behold, six, eight weeks later, everything took off.

Like people sat around their house.

They had extra money in their pocket.

They didn't go on vacation.

They saw some honey-do projects or maybe the misses saw some honey-do projects.

Then, we all got stuck with a few of those.

But fortunately for our business, it was great.

The problem was all of the-- while the mills and the different producers of material in our industry all pulled back as well and thinking it was going to be a slow down nationally, not just in our region.

And unfortunately, they laid people off.

They weren't producing.

And the next thing you know, the market took off and now everybody's playing catch up.

And as Matt alluded to, it's--the supply is far exceeding the demand of this or vice versa.

Demand is far exceeding the supply at this point.

And nobody can catch up.

If we don't have it in stock, we are very reluctant to call it a lead time.

Now, again, Matt alluded to the transportation.

That's another huge problem.

A lot of truck drivers got out of the business six, seven, eight years ago.

Not many getting into that business at this time.

So it's just not a business that the young kids, the young generation are looking at.

So getting the product sitting at the mill or sitting at a supplier, getting it to our facility has been a struggle as well.

Great, thank you, Bill, and appreciate that.

And as I think Shawn was predicting, hopefully some of that supply chain piece picks up because it sounds like from Matt and Shawn, there's some great demand for work.

But--but it really does sort of open up this--this--this discussion on workforce challenges a little bit.

So--so maybe, Shawn, let me start with you talking a little bit.

Let's just start construction trades in particular, and let's just talk about the workforce there.

My guess is, like many industries, it's an aging workforce.

And my guess is it's physically demanding and I don't know, talk to a little bit maybe about the--the state of sort of workforce in the construction trades industry.

Maybe set the stage for kind of the efforts we'll talk about to sort of fix that.

You know, absolutely.

You talk about an aging generation.

This is true in every industry, not just construction, but baby boomers are getting to a point where they're starting to retire out and construction because you do retire a bit earlier probably than you would in an office job, you're seeing it more and more.

So there has been a push over the last years.

I can speak to regionally, especially for us to generate more workers in the trades.

And a great example is the project around Notre Dame stadium, the Crossroads project that was built.

That job had at some point a thousand workers on a given day working on that project.

That's an enormous amount of people for a single project.

And that kind of drain as we return back into construction is going to impact workforce needs again.

So as we are losing aging population, as Bill mentioned, there's people that have left not only the trucking industry, but the building trades, because if things slow down a bit, especially the commercial side, it's been slow for a while.

Again, relighting commercials, very hot right now or, um, residential is very hot right now.

So we have been under some efforts here in the last couple of years to try to generate workforce and the chamber of building trades, which is definitely a part of it.

Matt, let me come your way and--and maybe help--maybe if you don't mind, maybe even sharing a little bit of your own personal experience, you know.

So what was it that--that made Matt decide that he wanted to get into the construction trades at some point?

Yeah, appreciate that.

Yeah, I really like working with my hands.

I like being outside as much as I can.

That's a little different these days.

I spent a lot more time in the office, but I like--growing up being hands on.

I mean, my first job out of high school was doing maintenance and landscaping that led to carpentry work.

And then I installed ceramic tile, did a lot of roofing and then got done with all that and went to school for construction management and kind of went down to build some houses in Indianapolis and did a little electrical work down there.

And then I've been back home here for about ten years now, moving my way through Midland.

But yeah, it's so gratifying to be outside working hard and, you know, it builds work ethic and, you know, you get to work with people with the same mindset.

So that's kind of how I got started.

Great.

And Bill, let me come your way, because you had the lens of your business, for example, working with the--with contractors for four generations now over your last one hundred years there at a Big C. Talk a little bit about, you know, kind of the--the evolution, even, of what you've seen from the--from the workforce side with--with folks in the construction industry.

Well, excuse me, Shawn touched on it again, much like the transportation industry a few years ago, a lot of people got out of this business and it is a quickly aging industry.

In fact, we did a survey here about two or three years ago and we determined over a third of the employees, three hundred and fifty of us at the time, over a third of us at Big C, were over the age of 55.

And I think that's indicative of the entire industry.

And I think that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

There's an awful lot of people that are getting ready to retire and maybe would have retired but the business is too good.

They can't walk away from it right now.

So know some of the schools get away with the tech programs and--and the kids didn't get involved in the hands on.

So that hurt a little bit.

It's not quite the sexy business that the computer world offers these days.

So it's hard attracting kids into the trades program and taking the opportunity to go around with some of the trades, building trades that we supply and support.

And Southwestern Michigan College does a big deal every year that I attend, and I'm just trying to sell the industry.

I'm not selling Big C lumber.

I'm saying somebody sold me the dream back in 1984 when interest rates were coming off 15, 16 points and falling down and the whole industry took off and somebody sold me the dream that you work hard and you could get on with a good company, you can work your way up.

And that's--that's the dream I'm trying to sell right now to these kids.

Just find a-- find a passion and find something you believe in and find something you enjoy it.

Find a good, reputable company that'll teach you the right way and give you good values.

And in 10 years, you're going to own the world.

Yeah.

So, Bill, I want to stay with you for a second because you sort of have this dual lens, if you will, right?

Where--where not only are you encouraging folks to get into the industry because it's--because your business is important, that industry, but you also have your own needs too, right?

With your 15 locations and stuff across the Midwest.

Talk a little bit about, even your--within your company, specifically your ability to attract the talent that you need to--to staff your stores and your lumber yards.

Well, it's a struggle.

You can't walk 10 feet without seeing a help wanted sign on a marquee.

And that's, you know, again, that's a great situation to have.

But it's troublesome for companies like Big C Lumber trying to--trying to hire people again, especially in transportation.

Hiring truck drivers is nearly impossible.

We've kind of turned our focus a little bit from finding somebody who has qualifications or experience to just trying to find the right person, a good cultural fit, somebody who wants to start somewhere in the beginning of their career and work their way up.

And if you've got the right person, if you got the right culture, we feel like we can teach them any job they want to learn.

So really, we're almost up in no experience is necessary part of our hiring process and stopped--stopped really going after job positions and more started posting 'here's what makes it lumber is all about.

Here's all the perks that goes along with one hundred year old family owned company'.

You know, if you're a good person and you want to--want to get in on the ground floor of an industry where you have an opportunity to move up Big C's a great choice.

But it's still a struggle.

It's in every one of our markets.

Yeah.

Matt, I want to come back your way.

You touched early on about some of your job sites currently that you're operating, that you have half of the--the people, maybe even that you need on those job sites.

What kind of person, what kind of skill set?

What's the ideal employee look like to Midland?

Yeah, I mean, ideally, you'd want somebody with any kind of construction experience at all of these days that could learn, run a tape measure or run a screwgun.

But kind of like Bill mentioned, you're at a point now or you're looking for anybody interested in any kind of a job all the way down from somebody that just helps us with housekeeping on job sites that can pick up trash and stay with the crew and make sure the job site stays clean and the guys got what they need to do the installations.

It's very competitive right now, not only within trades against one another, but the RV industry is huge right now.

So you're losing people to that industry and they bounce around from place to place just depending on who's paying the most.

And one thing you get into a good trade, you're going to build a pension with that.

That's what we try to push is if you're going to have some benefits and a retirement plan, if you get into a good trade.

And I focus on two trades, but the whole industry in general is--is hurting for the younger generations to come up.

I mean, they're more interested in the computers and things like that.

I mean, you're losing a lot of experience with people that have been doing this for 30 plus years.

And it's hard getting people in the door to take that next step.

So--so it's a struggle.

So, Shawn, if I'm coming your way.

So--so similar to other industries, the construction industry has to figure out how to fill this future pipeline.

So--so talk specifically about maybe some of the things either your companies that you represent or your organization is doing to, you know, where do you go find those bodies?

Yeah, so we represent union-affiliated contractors and the union building trades are typically excellent in pursuing new workforce and supplying workforce to our contractors.

But it's--it's been a challenge.

And one of the things that we've seen that's been a positive in the last couple of years is a bit of a shift back toward building trades in high schools.

There had been a stigma about building trades for many years and it was removed from a required curriculum piece.

I personally got into architecture because of the building trades class that I was required to take, shop class when I was in high school, and we did drafting and I found that thrilling and it got me into architecture, which led me into the industry.

And that's starting to come back.

And so we are making efforts to work with guidance counselors and to educate parents about the opportunities that are available, because the three of us are sitting here explaining a great need for workforce.

So there is nothing but opportunity right now in construction.

And people are raising wages, quite frankly, in order to raise that starting wage to get people in.

So I think there's a lot of growing opportunity.

We're chasing it around from a high school level.

We're trying to find, as Matt said, people that have some experience in any kind of construction.

If you understand construction, if you understand manufacturing, that already puts you in a mindset where you can be helpful to a career in the construction industry.

And if you happen to choose a union trade, you do have that pension and health insurance benefit piece.

That's a part of it.

So, Matt, we're down to our maybe our last five minutes or so, so it--is--is as high school students are watching this, or maybe folks who are unemployed, unsure what they want to do career wise, and they're thinking about the industry.

Can you give a little bit of the--the sales pitch, if you will, some of the advantages, maybe a little of the training required, kind of help us convince our viewers that--that this might be a path they want to take?

Yeah, I mean, like mentioned, there's a lot of opportunity out there for multiple trades, but you're going to get trained through--with us being union contractors.

There's a sheet metal union and the roofers union, there's apprenticeship programs.

I mean, I know a lot of people don't go to a secondary education or further into college.

So there's an opportunity to go through an apprenticeship program where you might actually get an associate's degree from Ivy Tech to a lot of the programs off of that.

But you're going to get some hands on training not only in the field when you start working, but in the apprenticeship school as well.

Like I said, there's just a lot of opportunity.

You're going to have a lot of people moving on, retiring.

So there's opportunity to be a foreman level.

And the rates, like Shawn mentioned, I mean, I remember when I started here 10 years ago the starting wage was eleven dollars an hour and we're already up to sixteen fifty for a starting roofing position.

So that's a huge increase.

And it's just trying to compete with other businesses and stay ahead of that and make it more enticing for individuals.

Shawn, help me understand maybe the training that like--like I think we all have a good understanding of college is four years and you get a degree and you walk out of there.

I'm not sure people have as great of an understanding of the--the trades path.

And how long--what does training look like?

How long is something to be invested in that?

So we have people enter the building trades apprenticeship programs at varying points in their life and their careers.

Some people do start right out of high school.

If you enter into the apprentice program, they're four or five year programs typically, and you're working the whole time that you attend school as part of that.

So you're getting hands on experience in the field.

You're getting training, so you're getting paid essentially to get that education and that career skill.

And then at the point that you're done with your apprenticeship program, you move on to become a journeyman and that's where the bigger money even pops in.

We have people joining the trades that are in their late 20s, early 30s that are deciding, you know, I've had a career, I've done this, I've done that.

And they like the idea of being able to provide a job that is a lifelong career with retirement involved, and they can support their family on it.

So they get involved that way.

And one of the things, Jeff, that that we've talked about to a lot of people is the pride that comes along with working in construction.

I don't I can't tell you how many times I've seen the pride in the guy's face where he says, well, I helped build that.

You know, the thousand people that I mentioned that we're working on Notre Dame's Crossroads piece.

Imagine going to a game or just being on campus and showing your son or daughter, hey, I worked on that.

I helped build that thing.

So there's a lot of different reasons that people get into the industry.

But there's flexibility, it's dynamic.

It's no desk required That's probably one of the best parts to people.

Bill, in our last minute or so, I'm going to give you a chance to maybe leave some final words with our folks.

You've obviously had some tremendous success at your business for the last one hundred years, serving not only this industry, but--but also your own workforce there and stuff.

What kind of advice again, to take young people who are--who are unsure about what they want to do to, help us make the pitch to them that this is a good career path?

They both touched on it, Shawn and Matt.

Open your eyes to this industry.

Even if you didn't think about it before, you don't have to go in with a lot of educational debt.

In fact, get paid to learn, as Shawn was saying.

And I encourage anybody to get on Big C Lumber dotcom careers page and look at all the benefits we offer.

And if it's not Big C, just open your eyes to the industry once again, find--find what your passion might be.

I think there's probably not a division in this business right now that wouldn't take a good kid on him and teach him the ropes.

Great.

Sean, I got thirty seconds and come back your way.

So--so if I--if I don't know, should I reach out to my guidance counselor, where should I go?

Maybe, I don't know.

Electric, plumbing, roofing, whatever.

What's the best path for somebody?

There's great opportunities.

You can contact us.

We'll be happy to steer you through something.

You can--we're working with guidance counselors to give them the information that they need to answer those questions.

Call somebody like Matt at Midland and he'd be happy to walk you through.

If roofing is not your thing, I'm sure Matt can point you in another direction.

Bill's got all kinds of different positions out there from what he was talking about.

I think that just stick your foot into it, get your big toe wet and figure out where--work a summer job if you're a high school kid.

Swinging a hammer with your parents, I mean, anything you can do would help to get you on the path toward it.

Shawn, that's a good point on or off the segment.

But we hire a ton of summer help every year, too.

Kids over 18 in between going to their first year, second year at college or whatever it might be.

You want to see what it's all about for every location, desire two or three intern summer helpers, so.

Great.

Well, thank you, guys.

What a great conversation.

Really appreciate you joining me today.

That's it for our show.

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