Hi, I'm Jeff Rea, your host for Economic Outlook.

Welcome to our show.

We hope you make plans each week to join us as we discuss the region's most important economic development initiatives with a panel of experts.

Last year, the South Shore Line the Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District embarked on the largest projects they've undertaken in more than a century.

The Westlake Corridor and the double track projects are well underway.

We'll sit down with the South Shore leadership for some important updates coming up on economic outlook.

The South Shore Line is currently in the midst of more than $1.5 billion of improvements.

All aimed at making your travels on the railroad quicker and safer.

We're taking a closer look at what's happening on the South Shore today with Mike Noland, the president, general manager of the South Shore line and the northern of the northern Indiana commuter Transportation district.

And David Niezgodski Indiana state senator and former board member at NICTD Gentlemen, thank you for joining me today.

It's a pleasure.

Thanks for having us today.

We always love talking South Shore.

It's a it's an important transportation link for our community.

And it is appropriate that you're back today because we have a lot to talk about.

As we just heard Mike talk a little bit about just just give us some nuts and bolts about, you know, kind of your role in somebody who's not familiar with the South Shore, what the South Shore is?

Sure, Jeff.

South Shore is about 115 year old railroad running from 90 miles from South Bend International Airport to Millennium Station in Chicago.

Along the way, we have 13 stops that we make between South Bend and Chicago.

Pre-pandemic, we carried three and a half million riders per year.

We're about half that now.

So we're gaining our riders back as people start coming back to work.

Over 12,000 trains a year are operating on the system.

Today, the travel time between South Bend and downtown Chicago is about two and a half hours.

We have one early morning train that can do better than that.

But we're embarking on to, as you mentioned, projects to the West Lake Corridor, $950 million project in the $650 million double track project, which will vastly improve the system, add 26 new trains, tremendous improvements to on time performance, frequency of trains and reduction in time to market that really are going to change the face of who this railroad, of what this railroad's been for the past 115 years.

Great.

We'll look for the dive in a little bit deeper.

So, Senator, you have been involved with.

So talk a little about your involvement in the South Shore.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity here today, Jeff.

As a current legislator, state senator for the last seven years and as a state representative for ten years, I kind of wear two hats today because this goes back before then what was on the county council.

I served on the NICTD board for eight years and actually seven of those years as the chairman.

And some of these things that we talked about today are good to talk about today, the West Lake corridor and a double tracking and possibly moving the the south shore to the western portion of the airport.

These were in their infancy stages we had.

It was a process that had begun.

But seeing this unfold while being in the General Assembly is just it's just awesome.

Great.

So, Mike, let me come back your way.

So so as David mentioned, some seeds planted a long time ago as you're thinking about some major projects.

So let's get into those a little bit.

First, let's talk let's focus specifically on double track so people don't understand double track on what's happening there.

Help us better understand that project.

Sure.

So I mentioned our 90 mile system, mostly from Gary, Indiana, towards South Bend, a 60 mile or 50 mile corridor.

We're basically a single track railroad that runs two way traffic.

So I always kind of liken it to a highway construction project where there's there's the flagger who's got the stop sign.

Everybody stops on the one end, Then the traffic comes the other direction and then when that all clears the flagger or turns around and brings every back the other way.

That's our operating environment on a daily basis for much of our corridor.

And so the the idea is to double track the railroad from Gary, Indiana, to Michigan Boulevard in Michigan City, and that's the bulk of our train system, that bulk of our runs.

And so that'll significantly open up opportunities to add more trains and reduce time to market.

South Bend being 90, 90 miles is more of intercity service.

So we do well with a single track railroad between Michigan City and South Bend.

That's not a constraint for us.

And so we've got passing sidings between here and in Michigan City.

So combining the opportunities from that open up from Michigan City to south or to Gary, Indiana, with with this stretch of track we have South Bend, we really can improve service for the entire network.

All right.

So I'm going to stick with you for saying so.

So it's speed.

And I think that's the maybe top priority.

Right?

I want to get to the third biggest economy in the world.

Faster.

But it's also a safety piece.

Talk about sort of the the how double track helps you achieve some of those kind of things.

Sure.

Think about Michigan City that is being a quote unquote, inner urban railroad, which runs through the middle of a community.

We run through Michigan City with 32 grade crossings, mostly stop signs and cross pucks, and we run at slow speeds.

Cars run on either side of us.

Cars go in front of us.

But this project closes 20 grade crossings, and any time you can close at grade crossing and improves and enhances safety and the remaining crossings that will be open in Michigan City, there's still going to be 13 crossings left.

All of those be protected by gates, lights and bells.

So it's a huge, huge improvement to safety.

Actually, the head of the US Federal Railroad Administration and the FTA have both commented that that this project, there's not a scorecard that they have to qualify when you apply for grant funding.

But there should be because we would have gotten an A-plus because of that element of this project.

Major safety improvement.

I was just going to ask with with those grade crossings eliminated, obviously they'll still be a few more.

But what's how much time will be saved with that?

I mean, normally doesn't go to NICTD, to you, the train to 10 to 15 miles an hour and you'll be able to pick up today.

We run our maximum speed through Michigan cities about 20 miles an hour.

There's some other civil speed restrictions because of curves that are in place that we're going to be eliminating.

So our throughput through Michigan City will be reduced.

Safety will be enhanced and the throughput through Michigan City will be substantially reduced.

So absolutely.

So I'm going to come to actually both you I'll come to you first, Dave.

So this is a patchwork quilt of how you put the resources together to fund such an important project.

So a critical priority of the state of Indiana the state has been an important part to talk about why why it's an important thing for for the state to be involved with with something like the South Shore?

Well, it's so important.

Obviously, whenever you have a project that falls within, it takes part within your legislative district.

Absolutely.

That's a huge honor being a part of that and be able to be a part in helping to make it happen.

But it's not just for a legislative district.

It's not only just for the entire region, it's for the entire state.

I mean, we've been told for years just exactly what northern Indiana brings.

When you talk about your dark fiber, your future network, your communications, your travel, you know, just the commerce back and forth, this is just one other huge part of that.

And Governor Holcomb, I think, recognize well, the past governors as well but Governor Holcomb really put a lot of this into action.

And and he saw that this is going to be an economic boom for the entire state.

I do love I think it connects the four counties in particular in a way that they're not otherwise connected.

And I think that's an important piece.

Maybe build on this a little bit.

So.

So because you get to be the guy that tries to find pennies and nickels to to put together to try to pay for a project.

Talk a little bit about that patchwork quilt and what that looks like starting from the very beginning.

Think about regional cities.

One when we needed to get this project off the ground to do the study work, they, the premier engineering and the environmental, we came to South Bend and your regional city out here gave us the seed money and each county, each of the four counties put up the seed money and the NICTD did match that and we got the 30% engineering and the environmental done.

And then from that we then took that to the FTA and started the process to get a federal grant from that.

We went to the four counties and each county contributed 18.25 million towards the project.

And in that here in Saint Joe County, South Bend, and the county split that they each put 9.1 million in over in LaPorte County that was shared between the city of Michigan City and LaPorte County and then the RDA in in Lake and Porter Counties threw in a share as well.

And with that, the state then said, We'll partner with you.

You guys are putting in local share.

We see the value.

As a matter of fact, the state saw at least a $2 for every dollar of that and they've invested return and that's conservative.

It's probably more like $4 to every dollar that will come back to the General Assembly.

And I think Governor Holcomb.

I agree with you, Dave, he was instrumental in in saying, hey, yeah, this is great for the four counties in northwest Indiana, but it's great for the people in Evansville.

This is going to bring more economic and investment into the entire state.

Two and a half billion dollars worth of private sector investment is anticipated to follow this.

And Dave was there when we were getting this pushed through the General Assembly, the vote between the two houses combined to support this project was 145 to 5 in favor of the project.

That's not something you see on a lot of legislation.

No.

And the question I always get is who are the five?

Yeah, right, exactly.

We're going to take take names here.

So let me ask it.

Maybe just so you can help us.

So when we talk first about double track, you mentioned the construction is mostly upstream, but you just said South Bend and Saint Joe County have been important investors.

What's the benefit to them if none of the work happens here?

Yeah, every single train to and from South Bend benefits from this project.

So some some of the trains along the line so if somebody jumps on a train in East Chicago there's no work being done in East Chicago.

They're going to get more service.

But the reduction in time, every single minute of time reduction is going to be enjoyed by the residents of Saint John County.

It's a huge reduction for them.

Yes.

The works not being a done Saint Joe, but all the benefits because you're going to and from Chicago are going to be achieved along the way.

It's interesting.

I think it was former Commissioner Kostielney who explained it like we almost like we had fooled everybody else.

We had to put the same amount as everybody else.

But we got the biggest benefit because of exactly what you said, because every single train here benefits from that way, because we're really the studio.

Real quick, I'm going to go out into the field.

We're going to talk to George Lepeniotis.

My co-host is going to dive in a little bit deeper on the South Shore story.

George, let me toss it to you.

Thanks, Jeff.

I'm here at one of our favorite places, South Bend International Airport.

And I'm joined by one of our old friends, Bill Schalliol Bill, thanks for being with me today.

No problem, George.

Unfortunately, we're not going to be riding the South Shore train today.

As our viewers can see, it is closed here at the airport for renovations.

Currently, the renovations are taking place over near the Gary Stop, is that right?

Correct.

Everywhere from Gary to downtown Michigan City.

And that is something that we affectionately call double tracking.

And that is what it sounds like, isn't it?

Exactly.

So they're building a parallel train line for the subsequent passenger service to the existing line.

So it will allow for more trains to run at a level for better access for the freight service.

So it will absolutely improve efficiency and effectiveness of the rail line.

So for those of us that have been born and raised around Michiana to the South Shore has been such a vital link between South Bend, Michigan City, the region and ultimately Chicago in connecting such vibrant communities and economies.

Does it still play that role?

Is it still a valuable part of our community?

It certainly is a huge value add, but what we really believe is once double track is done and the relocation of the train to the east, to the west side of the airport, we really think with the efficiency that that 90 minute trip from downtown South Bend or from the airport to downtown Chicago, that'll be huge for the region.

So those of us that have ridden the train recall that there are a couple of there are a couple of bottlenecks.

And one of them was around the Gary area where the train would have normally stop.

And you were waiting for another train, the train to come the other direction.

So this double tracking will allow two way traffic.

But then as you got closer to South Bend, there was also some delays coming through the Ardmore neighborhood and that's been a bit controversial.

But tell me, what is the benefit of connecting to South Bend International?

Well, so what we believe is the ability to connect South Bend International to the downtown hub in Chicago, which then allows you to go to O'Hare or to Midway, really allows for air service to really this this to become the third airport for the region.

It really is a huge opportunity.

There are a lot of people that ride the train from the West End to the airport to pick up flights.

And we think that will increases the service, improves.

Yeah.

I was recently talking to a friend from near Midway, probably 20 to 25 minutes away from Midway who chose to fly out of South Bend International largely because of the convenience of the facility, certainly.

So really, it isn't necessarily about taking us from South Bend to Chicago, only it's about bringing people from the west back here.

Absolutely.

And we think there's a lot more of that that will happen as that rate increases and the speeds increase.

And so we have talked about how this is there's been a method to this entire project where the tour currently the train weaves its way around and crosses Lincoln way near Bendix.

Now, the idea is that with this relocation program, it will cross it'll cross west of Oak Road, so west of Mayflower, and then work its way north in through a new path into the west side of the airport.

So we'll go from about 20 to at grade crossings that the train would have to navigate to probably three.

So that will take literally 20, 30 minutes off the train.

Absolutely.

The worst part of the trip right now is where you can see the airport.

But no, you have another 23 minutes to ride the train to get there.

Yeah, that's that's definitely a challenge.

So as you talk about these improvements, the obvious question is who's paying for this?

Certainly.

So right now there's a design process being done and deals locally is managing that project for NICTD.

Those are paid for.

Those funds are paid for by NICTD.

As we get past the design standpoint, then we'll have to go through either local or state or federal money or a combination.

There in to make those improvements.

We estimate that that project could be 20 to 30 million, but well worth the money for the return on investment.

And there are partners, federal and state partners, that would be willing to to fund such an infrastructure project, especially as we look at alternative ways to travel around the country.

That's awesome.

So tell me, what is it about the South Shore that's unique to our region?

I mean, I've got my memories of it, right?

I've got memories of going downtown Chicago for the holidays, jumping on either Michigan City or here at the airport.

Is it do you feel that it really will, once it's all said and done, that it will continue to grow into the future?

Oh, absolutely.

I think before the pandemic, you were already seeing ridership continue to grow.

I think once double track is done and again, speeds and the stations are improved and all those things, I think it will just add more ridership, as is downtown Chicago is more expensive to park in or get to or things like that exist for us that are going west.

It makes it easier.

But again, I think it's the people that are in the Chicago area that want to experience our culture and our activities.

Great opportunity to bring them here and enjoy the area.

Yeah, Yeah.

Now, what about the connection to downtown?

I know that there was some talk about that to downtown South Bend or maybe closer to Notre Dame to become kind of a commuter for some of those game day weekend, some of those high traffic events that happen here in town.

Is there a plan for that?

So we have we have looked at the airport is is the principle and location.

That doesn't preclude that at some point in time, it couldn't continue on to downtown or special trains to downtown or things like that.

But right now, the goal is to get it to the west side of the airport.

Good start.

Good goal.

Bill, thanks for being with us.

Thanks for explaining the situation.

It's always helpful to know as much information about such a major project.

Jeff, back to you in the studio.

I'm sure you've got a lot more to talk about as regards to the connections that make the entire northern half of Indiana, southwest Michigan and even in Illinois.

One large community.

George, thank you.

I know you love doing these stories and appreciate you being out there again and talking a little about what's going on on the railroad.

So guys as we come to the second half of our show, so really three things have been on the list.

I think we tease first and we'll still talk Westlake corridor, but a long time in Saint Joe County, the discussion has been about the final terminus of this.

And there's been a lot of discussion over the years.

Right now it terminates at the airport.

Mike, talk to us a little bit about what's happening in the discussion with how it how the line ends on this end.

Yeah, you know, we we don't operate in days, weeks, months or even years.

We sometimes operate in decades.

You know, I went to school here and we dropped off or dropped off the location off of Bendix, where Amtrak currently is.

A few years later, the airport had come in to the east side of the terminal in 1990 on a temporary basis, and we've been there temporarily for 32 years while we've studied places to make the permanent home for the next hundred years.

In the early 2000s, when Dave was on the board, there were studies done to bring us to the western side of the terminal and some property was acquired.

It went through the environmental process and got that cleared along the way.

We other things got taken care of and when we came back to take a look at that route, the runway had been lengthened and so it appeared to be no longer available.

So we studied a couple of years ago some other opportunities.

But now working with the airport, we believe we can achieve a connection into the west side of the airport along that original route, which is incredibly exciting so that we can have our permanent home get into the airport, which, by the way, is a huge priority of the United States Department of Transportation.

There might be a head of the U.S.

DOT who might have an interest in this in supporting that role, because they want they want commuter railroads in airports.

So we are embarking upon and have hired DLC engineering to do a 100% engineering and the environmental clearance to bring us into the west side of the airport, which will reduce time to and from Chicago significantly.

Since for Dave and and Mike, help us understand this a little bit.

It's it's the same spot, right?

What's the difference East versus west?

Why do I want to be on the west side and said the east side want to be on the west side and Mike will help us out on the time savings.

But it's also again, it's safety and time.

If I'm not incorrect, it's it's at least 20 grade crossings that are also going to be eliminated.

Just going to the western side of the airport.

And, you know, like we always like to say, trains, planes and automobiles.

It does seem to be the right location for that to go.

And we were discussing that very intently while I was still on the board.

Yeah.

And think about the fact that to get into the east side of the airport, we actually go past the airport on our main line and then we come around the back side of the airport.

It's very slow speed track and again, the 20 grade crossings, that's why we'll cut off about a mile and a half of distance by coming in on the west side and going directly into the that side of the terminal.

We're also excited to partner with the airport and the county from an economic development standpoint that will support their visions for international freight cargo.

So we've got a great partner with with the county and with and with the airport.

And so we're advancing that project.

I do want to bring up Jeff, because when we looked at this originally, there was a lot of interest in going to downtown, which it would be wonderful to get back to downtown and some routes that have been studied.

We are doing this in a phased approach so that we can get into the airport and then someday, if we want to pivot and we can find the the significant dollars, it's an expensive project to get downtown.

We're not precluded from doing it.

We're laying the groundwork to get to downtown if we find the funding to do that in the future.

Mike I want to stick with you because you touch briefly on the federal government, federal funding that some of the federal priorities.

What's happening generally across the nation with with with things like rail, we can't be the only people working on it.

What's what's the appetite in the federal government.

So I've also said if we're ever going to do it, now's the time to do it, because we have the largest infrastructure bill that I've ever seen in my 40 years in this career.

It's a it could be who knows what they'll do when this current transportation bill expires in five years.

But there's huge amounts of new discretionary competitive dollars that are available.

And there's folks around the country with great projects.

We should not let this opportunity pass ourselves by because whether it's a Christie grant, which combines freight and passenger and, you know, other intermodal opportunities or raise grants, those those grant programs are significantly enhanced in this current five year transportation bill.

So while it is competitive funding, this is a really competitive project and we should get in there and pitch well while there's funding available.

Great, David come your way because back to your time even on the south shore board, might you add in as well.

So so obviously thinking big picture, these $1.5 billion for the projects is big.

You want to improve of grade crossings in Kent and stuff.

But, but the customer experience I think is such a critical piece.

Ted, talk a little bit about, you know, kind of where that fits in with the overall things that are on the priority list.

Well, I look at in terms of ridership prior to construction, I believe you're looking at from South Bend to Chicago, about a two hour and 20 minute journey.

I know that's a little bit more during your construction right now, but once you see the double tracking put into place and you see we if we're going to the western side of the airport, you're now going to reduce that to about 90 minutes, is that correct?

Yeah, Our limited stop trains, I mean, some of our trains will be a little longer, but still around 2 hours, which is about a half hour reduction for train.

But our limited stop trying to we can get done in 90 minutes.

So I've also looked at and I say this all the time, we know that the Chicago marketplace is well set for well past the next 20 years.

But it's not just that with some of the developments taking place in Saint Joseph County, I don't just look at ridership, looking to go to East Chicago, Chicago to find jobs.

I look at East Chicago or maybe even Chicago coming to the South Bend region, Elkhart, you know, this the northern Indiana spectrum for great economic development.

So I just look at is that region really coming together to produce multi billions of dollars worth of economic investment?

Yeah.

So, Mike, you mentioned the system's 100 plus years old.

You're trying to modernize it.

I talked about just the the trains itself, the rider experiences that are sitting on a train writing to or from Chicago.

Yeah.

We currently have 82 cars in our fleet.

We're actually adding 26 new double decker cars are actually they're going to be rehab but they're they're they're identical twins, cars to the ones our double deckers on our line.

Those now are going back and forth to South Bend as well.

We've modernized the overhead category that allows us to do that.

So our rider experience from our rail cars is significantly improving.

And the cars that we have, we're completely gutting them.

We're taking out the floors, the windows, the seats and putting all new components on the inside so that the rider quality experience will be significantly improved.

No, I think that's designed so as we get into our last couple of minutes.

So in maybe a minute mentioned Westlake and just a couple of the where it's going, what's happening, it's a little bit outside of the area, but it's still an important piece.

It's the first new route in over 100 years.

Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah.

Westlake is a $950 million project.

It's a line extension that runs from North Hammond down to the Munster Dyer border along the old Monaghan Railroad.

It will allow folks because we'll have a Gateway station in North Hammond if you want to.

If you want to take a train from Munster to Hammond, you can transfer and take a train to South Bend.

Or if you want to go to someplace in in Munster or Dyer or in Hammond, 173rd Street, you want to connect maybe to Purdue Northwest.

You can jump on a train from South Bend, transfer at the Gateway Station and jump on a Westlake train and get get to your destination.

So it's a wonderful opportunity and it grows our system.

The stronger the system is, the better it is for everyone who participates.

So in our last 30 seconds here, so there's a little bit of a partner.

Does message and remind folks when some of these improvements might be done?

Yeah.

I mean, anytime you have a construction project, whether it's a highway project or any other improvement in an airport, you're certainly putting your patrons through that construction.

Well, in those of us who have done additions at our house, no, you live through it because at the end of the day you have a vision.

And our vision is is a substantial improvement to the South shore.

So we have we're bussing our passengers today from from Michigan City to Gary, Indiana.

We're using Royal Oak Excursion, which a great partner of ours.

But still, it's a it's a multiple seat ride.

We understand they're in the middle of construction.

Everybody's got a little shared equity in this.

And at the end of the day, we have a wonderful new system outstanding guys Thanks for joining me today to talk about it.

We're really excited to see what's happening there.

We're looking forward to the completion.

Thanks for the good work you've both been doing for decades now.

Get putting us in this place.

We're really looking for the end product.

So thanks, Jeff.

That's it for our show today.

Thank you for watching on WNIT or listening to our podcast to watch this episode again.

And of our past episodes, you can find economic outlook at WNIT .org or find our podcast on most major podcast platforms for encourages like us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter.

I'm Jeff Rea.

I'll see you next time.

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