I am Jeff Rea, your host for Economic outlook.

Welcome to our show, where each week we take a deep dive into the regional economy and the people, the companies, the communities, and projects that are helping our region grow.

She was the team captain of the first American woman's Everest expedition team.

She's a faculty member at the Thayer Leader Development group at West Point, and she's a New York Times best-selling author of On the Edge.

We're sitting down with Alison Levine for a talk about surviving and thriving in unsettling times coming up on Economic Outlook.

She's climbed the highest peak on every continent, served as a team captain of the first American Women's Everest expedition, and skied to cross the Arctic Circle to the geographic North Pole.

She's no stranger to punishing environments.

She survived sub-zero temperatures, hurricane-force winds, and sudden avalanches in a career on Wall Street.

Please join me in welcoming New York Times best-selling author and adventurer extraordinaire, Alison Levine.

Welcome, Alison.

Thank you.

Pleasure to be here with you today.

Just one quick note before we get started here at WNIT.

We're respecting social distancing and as such have both our hosts and guests joining us today, virtually instead of in person.

So, Alison, we're grateful to have you here.

Thank you for spending a few minutes with us, as I teased in the--in the opening.

You're an adventurer extraordinaire for lack of a better term, but also a world-renowned speaker, author, and so we want to share just some lessons with our--with our audience today and appreciate the chance to have a conversation.

But you know I want to start with this sort of helping people get to understand who Alison is.

So--so, Alison, what did you want to be when you grew up?

OK, well, I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona, and I wanted to be an air conditioning repair woman because I thought that there would always be high demand and job security.

So, air conditioning repair woman was what I thought I wanted to be.

Now, I'll tell you that growing up in Phoenix, obviously, you can imagine the--the heat in the summer, the August heat--July and August heat.

So when I was younger, I would read these books about the early Arctic and Antarctic explorers, the early mountaineers.

And I would read these books and I would watch documentary films about these really cold places because it felt like an escape from the oppressive summer heat.

So I read the books and I'd watch the films, but I never actually thought I would go to those places because I was born with some health challenges.

So I was born with a hole in my heart that got bigger as I got older.

I had my first heart surgery and I was 17.

And then--that one unfortunately was not successful, but I had another one when I turned 30.

That one was successful.

And about 18 months later, this lightbulb went on in my head and I thought, OK, hang on.

If I want to know what it's like to be this explorer, Reinhold Messner, who's skiing 600 miles across Antarctica, dragging a one hundred fifty pound sled, then I should go to Antarctica instead of just reading about these things.

If I want to know what it's like to be these mountaineers going to these remote mountain ranges.

And I should go to the mountains instead of just watching documentary films about them.

And if these other guys can do that stuff, why can't I do it, too?

So I didn't start climbing until I was thirty-two years old.

But yeah, when I was younger, air conditioning repair woman, that's what I wanted to be.

All right.

So--so you're thinking about all this, but you're also, I guess, pursuing a little bit of a normal path, right?

You're going to school trying to figure out a job, you know, that kind of stuff.

So talk about your early years, say, in the corporate world.

Some of your experiences on the job front.

Yeah, well, I--OK, I'll take you through my career path like kind of the Reader's Digest version, but I'm from Arizona, as I mentioned.

I went to the University of Arizona.

I studied communications and marketing.

And I also worked while I was going to college, I worked in restaurants.

And when I was working in a restaurant in Tucson, I answer the phone in the restaurant.

The concierge from a local hotel was calling to tell me that she was sending 10 or 12 people from the Mattel Toy Company into the restaurant for dinner because Mattel had this big toy thing.

It was called Pre Toy Fair.

So their big convention every year is Toy Fair in New York.

They're having Pre Toy Fair, which happened in Tucson.

So all these Mattel people are coming in for dinner.

And I'm--I'd seen ads on TV for He-Man Masters of the Universe was there.

Their live-action figure toy Line and Seven-Eleven was serving Slurpees in He-Man Masters of the Universe cups.

And so I asked my boss at the restaurant if I could be for 15 minutes.

I drove to 7-Eleven and I bought these plastic He-Man cups that they normally serve Slurpees in.

And I had all the cups waiting on the table with drinks in them for when the Mattel people came in.

And so they thought it was hilarious and like, who did this?

Where do these cups come from?

And-and so people pointed to me and I came over to the table.

I started talking to them.

I told them I was a marketing major.

Or, sorry.

Marketing minor, communications major, marketing minor.

And-and they were-- so they invited me since I said I was interested in marketing, they invited me to come to Pre Toy Fair and kind of see how everything worked there.

And so--and I knew Mattel is a big marketing company.

And so I went to Toy Fair and I ended up parlaying that into a summer internship at Mattel.

So I got this, which normally I know they hire like all Ivy--like almost everyone that worked there was from Ivy League schools and private schools.

But I got this summer internship and then when I was an intern at Mattel, I told them that I really--my dream was to work in marketing.

And they said, if you want to be good at marketing, the best thing to do is start in sales.

Salespeople get to know the business, the customer, the products.

They know everything inside and out.

And our best marketing people, you know, have a good understanding of sales.

And so I ended up taking a sales job out of college because my goal was to be in marketing.

But, I started in sales also because I really needed a car.

And so I was looking for a sales job that provided a company car so I could get good experience and get a free car, I thought.

So, I ended up getting a job in pharmaceutical sales with Allergan and I and I told my boss when I interviewed my dream is to be a marketing.

I really want to work in marketing.

So I started in sales and he said, if you do well in sales, I will help you get to that marketing job.

And he did.

I did well in sales and he helped because--you know, he was a mentor to me and a sponsor to me and helped become the person that helped promote me to the people in-house in marketing.

And I ended up with a marketing job there at Allergan and then moved into their capital equipment division.

But then I realized that I was missing some of the critical skills that you--that I believed I needed.

Formal business training, accounting, finance.

Things like that, I had never studied.

I was really good at--I was really creative, and I knew a lot about marketing and communication, but I didn't know accounting, finance, any of the quantitative skills.

So I decided to go back to business school and I ended up going to get an MBA at Duke.

And then, of course, I'm getting my MBA.

I thought, OK, if I want to learn finance and accounting, I should try to get a job on Wall Street for the summer, even though I don't want a--really want a job in Wall Street.

I just want to learn it for the summer.

I just want to learn those skills for the summer.

So I ended up getting a summer internship at Goldman Sachs.

And then even though I thought I'd never really want to work in finance, I got an offer to go back full time to Goldman.

And I ended up working there for three years after business school, because--I'll tell you a secret, I never liked the job, I'm sorry to say, but I loved the people.

I loved the culture of the firm.

I loved the people.

What I loved about the people at Goldman were they were what I call clutch players.

And what I mean by that is people who tell you they're going to get something done and they get it done, they tell you you're going to have something Tuesday morning by 7:00 a.m. You have it Tuesday morning by 7:00 a.m. You don't have a Thursday, you don't have a Friday.

You don't have it by 10:00 a.m. You have a Tuesday at seven a.m. And I place a very high value on people who--who are true to their word.

So I was at Goldman.

And then--but I started climbing, you know, I had started climbing.

This is turning into a long story.

I'm so sorry.

I started climbing back when I was--before I started grad school.

I quit my job a couple months before I started grad school.

I just felt like I wanted to take a little bit of time off.

So two months before I started at Duke, I quit my job and I started climbing mountains.

That's when I climbed my first mountain.

I was thirty-two years old.

And then every time I had a break from-from classes.

So we were on six-week terms at Duke.

Every time we had a break, I would go to another mountain.

So I never lost his passion to climb.

And I just thought, oh, when I go to Goldman, I'm probably going to have to give up this passion for a while.

But actually, I didn't because I was able to take a couple leaves of absence to climb a couple of mountains while I was still at Goldman, but then I realized my heart was really in the mountains, it wasn't at Goldman.

So I left the firm after three years.

And--and I've been climbing mountains ever since.

So and then I do a lot of speaking engagements and I join the part-time faculty at the US Military Academy at West Point.

I currently still lecture there through the Thayer Leadership Group, which is an executive education program.

So you don't really make any money climbing mountains.

So you got to do other stuff on the side.

Great.

So let's--let's get into the adventure side, the mountain climbing.

So help us get in this mindset.

You--you climb a small one and then you want to climb the bigger one and then you want to find the bigger one.

Do you start with thinking I'm going to climb the biggest peaks in the world?

How how does that interest align over time?

No.

So about 18 months after my second heart surgery, a couple of friends of mine decided they wanted to go to Mount Kilimanjaro.

And that's when I thought, oh, this is great.

I can do something that I couldn't have done before my surgery.

I want to do something to celebrate my new state of good health.

So we were going to go to Kilimanjaro, the three of us, and then a couple of weeks before we were supposed to go, they decided that they wanted to go to Club Med in Cancun instead.

Well, I didn't want to go to Club Med in Cancun because warm weather, you know, sitting poolside, whatever.

I mean, I grew up in Phoenix and we spent--we would go every week.

We would spend a week in San Diego for vacation.

So beaches, warm weather.

I had that before.

I want to do something different.

So I decided--I went to Kilamanjaro by myself.

I used all my frequent flier miles and flew to Tanzania.

I lived and worked in Southeast Asia for Allergan prior to starting grad school, so I had a ton of frequent flier miles.

I just didn't have any money.

But I realized that I could get anywhere I wanted to go with my miles for free.

And I just--I just couldn't afford hotels or anything like that.

So, I knew if I could throw everything I needed in a backpack; a cooking stove, a sleeping bag, a tent, warm clothes, I could basically travel a ton without really spending very much money, you know, staying at hostels here and there.

And so I just went to Kilimanjaro by myself.

That was the first mountain I ever went to.

I borrowed all the warm clothes that I needed because I--growing up in Arizona, I just didn't have any warm clothes.

And then living in Southern California for Allergan, I did not have warm clothes.

So I borrowed everything, I bought my own hiking boots, but everything else was borrowed.

And I went to and I found a guide at the base of the mountain for about three hundred dollars.

And I climbed Kilimanjaro just with a local guide and local porters and just by myself.

So that's the first mountain that I climbed.

And that's it was an important mountain for me.

And probably a lot of people watching us have climbed Kilimanjaro.

It's not a technically difficult mountain.

You feel the altitude for sure because it's over nineteen thousand feet.

But, for me, it was a very important mountain because I didn't think I could make it to the summit.

And I told myself on summit day, I'm going to turn around.

I feel terrible.

I'm dizzy, I have a headache.

I don't feel good, I have a stomach ache.

You know, just from the altitude I'm going to turn back.

But before I turn back, I'm just going to take a couple more steps and then I'm going to turn up.

Took a couple more steps.

All right.

I'm definitely going to turn around because I know I'm not going to make it.

But just--I'll just take a couple more steps.

I want to see the view from over there.

I would take a couple more steps and look at the view.

OK, I know I'm going to turn down, but--turn back down.

But just a couple more steps.

And then eventually with that mentality, I found myself at the top of the mountain.

And so I remember that.

And every time in the future I thought, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't get there.

I thought, well, hang on, you've been in this situation before and you got there by just taking a couple more steps.

And that's what I really want people to think about.

People out there, all of the business owners and employees and leaders out there.

When you think you cannot keep going, remember, you can always take one more step and that's how you get to the top of a mountain or that's how you achieve your goal in business is just by one step at a time.

Don't think about, you know, the final goal when it feels completely overwhelming.

Remember, it's just about taking one step at a time.

You don't have to be the fastest and the strongest.

You just have to be the most relentless when you think about your business goals.

So, Alison, you decide after Kilimanjaro that--you're excited about this now you want to continue to climb.

Help our viewers just understand a little bit more, maybe a little bit of your journey in a couple of the--the other places that you find, but also give us some insight into what it's like.

I've never climbed a mountain, for example.

So--so I don't have a great feel for wind and temperature and rain and high elevations.

So help us understand a little bit of those.

Sure.

So, the altitude really, really takes a toll on your body, so first of all, whenever you're above about eighteen thousand feet, which there's only one mountain in the United States, it's over eighteen thousand feet.

That's Denali.

It's in Alaska, it's over 20 thousand feet.

But any time you're above eighteen thousand feet, your body is starting to deteriorate and your muscles are starting to get weaker.

So it's a challenge, right?

Because you want to stay strong up on the mountain.

But as you get higher, as you make progress, your body, your muscles are deteriorating and you're getting weaker.

So it's this--that's why they when you climb a big mountain, they--they climb--what they do It's called acclimatization, where you climb high and then you come back down and sleep low and then you climb higher on the mountain, you come back down to sleep.

So you're going higher a little bit at a time to let your body get used to the altitude.

But you have to keep coming back down low to--to regain some strength.

So it's this crazy, like up and down, up and down, up and down on the really big mountains.

Smaller mountains, you can just-- like Kilimanjaro, it's nineteen thousand feet.

You're not that much above eighteen thousand.

You could just climb straight up, but the altitude takes a toll on you.

The cold, being in a remote extreme environment, plays with your emotions.

I mean, I know we've all been working remotely, so we're remote, but we're not out of communication or access to health care or emergency services if we need them.

But when you're in a truly remote, extreme environment like, let's say Antarctica, the coldest, windiest place on earth.

Right.

Five point five million square miles of solid ice.

What's challenging is you--you your head has to be in the right place because you can't quit.

You can't quit when you're in the middle of Antarctica because there is nowhere to go.

You can't pop into the lodge and have a cup of hot cocoa and catch the shuttle bus back to your car in the parking lot.

Like, you are out there in these elements.

And so when you're in a remote, extreme environment, what you have to remember, too, is that emotions are very much heightened, positive emotions and negative emotions.

So when you're a little bit down on something, it can really feel like you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders.

And so you have to be aware of that, that your emotions are not necessarily as balanced as they would be back in a normal environment where there's not as much risk and danger present every day.

So as you get to places like Everest, for example, I've heard you talk a little bit about that and-- talk a little bit about just the--maybe the context, the team, the--the way you're carrying, the time it takes to go from--from top to bottom.

I think people think of Everest probably more.

So just help us understand some of that context there.

Sure.

Well, first of all, In putting together a team.

It's very similar to a normal business environment.

Not that there is any normal business environment these days, but obviously when you want to hire people to be part of your team and your organization in your business, you want to find people who are the perfect mix of skill and experience, but are also going to be really good team players.

Right.

Because it doesn't do you any good to be high up on Mount Everest with the best, best climbers if they don't care about the team.

And on the flip side, you can't be up there.

People are really fun and cool and easy to get along with if they don't have the right skills to be successful in that environment.

So, what I would look for in putting together a team to kind of big mountain is the same thing that, you know, all of you probably look for when you are hiring people to join your organization, or at least you should look for those things right.

Scale Experience.

But you've also got to be a team player.

So--so that's the team.

And then as far as--Wait!

I already forgot, the second part of your question, it was--.

No, just help us understand even time like the time to take to walk.

Two months.

OK, so it takes two months to climb this mountain.

And that's why it's also so important to have the right team with you, because you're in a remote, extreme environment with your team 24/7 for two months.

You better have the right people there.

Right, because like I said, there's no getting rid of anyone.

I mean, you can but probably end up in jail if you like, push someone into a crevasse or something.

But, you know, you don't want to get rid of anyone.

You want everyone to work together.

And when there's problems on a team, you work through them.

So it's two months.

And the reason it's two months is because you don't just climb from base camp to camp one to camp two and so on.

Right.

You like--as I mentioned, you use you start at base camp, you climb up and you climb back down to gain some strength, climb back up again to get used to the altitude, climb back down to regain some strength.

So that's why it takes two months to climb this mountain, because you're not just climbing straight up.

You're going up and down and up and down.

But what you have to remember is that even when you're climbing back down toward base camp, you're still making progress on this mountain because you're helping your body acclimatize and you're increasing your strength.

And often we think that progress has to happen in one particular direction, right?

To make progress, you go up the mountain.

Wait!

I'm going down the mountain?

That doesn't feel like progress, but it is progress.

Progress does not always happen in one direction.

Progress is not always linear.

Sometimes you have to backtrack for a bit in order to eventually get to where you want to be.

So don't ever look at that backtracking as losing ground, right?

You look at it as an opportunity to regroup, regain some strength.

So you're better out of the gates the next time around.

Right.

Alison, I want to maybe take some of your on-the-mountain experiences and maybe relate it to a little bit of present day.

Not that there's any comparison, but what you shared with us on the mountain, for example, is the unpredictability of wind and snow and cold and having to constantly adjust.

So as a community, as a society, as a business, we've had to make some pretty significant adjustments to this uncertain time over this last year.

Help us just maybe take away some--some of your mountain lessons that could be applicable to our business or our community.

Well, if you want to survive in the mountains and you want to survive in business, which, you know, you're dealing with changing environments in business, of course, I don't think we've ever seen as much change as what we've seen over the past years since Covid started.

But what you have to remember is if you want to survive, you have to be able to take action based on the situation at the time and not based on some plan, because you definitely have a plan when you're going to Mount Everest.

You definitely have a plan when you're launching a business, running a business, whatever you're doing in the business world, you have a plan, right plan and keeps you organized, keeps you on track, keeps you motivated.

Planning is crucial.

But what you have to remember is that when you are in these environments that are constantly shifting and changing, which is what we have today, whatever plan you came up with last year, last month, last week, even this morning, your plan is already outdated.

Your plan is outdated as soon as it's finished when you're in these environments that are constantly shifting and changing.

So, yes, of course, have a plan for your business, but you cannot be hell-bent on sticking to that plan no matter what.

You want to be much more focused on executing based on what is going on at the time, because in business, just like in the mountains, things are always changing around you, you know, in the mountains there are all these things that are going to affect your climb that you have zero control over.

The weather is the biggest one.

But your health, the health of the team, the conditions, the route, all these things are going to affect your climb.

You cannot control any of it.

That's some great advice.

Alison, I appreciate you helping to try to relieve that.

So you completed this--this great adventure.

You've been on all the seven continents, climbed all these things, done some things that only a handful of people in the world have done.

And so now you're--now you're telling your story and sharing your experiences.

So talk to us a minute about your book On the Edge and then a little bit about your experience just lecturing whether it be at West Point or sharing with business people across the country.

Yeah, so I wrote a book called On the Edge.

It's a New York Times best-seller.

Mike Krzyzewski, Coach K, wrote the foreword to my book.

And this is a book of leadership lessons I learned while climbing the world's highest peaks and skiing to both the North and the South Pole.

Because there are so many lessons that I learned in these extreme environments that really apply to business and apply to, you know, day-to-day life, right?

How do you deal with these changing environments?

How do you put together the right team?

How do you move forward into the unknown when you have no idea what's coming down the trail?

I mean, so I've got just stories.

Every chapter is a different story about a different expedition and the lessons that I learned along the way.

And some of them are experiences I'm not particularly proud of, experiences where I did not make the best decisions.

Luckily, everything worked out OK, but it's kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly from--from my various expeditions.

So I wanted to be able to share those lessons with everybody else, because normally when I do these lectures, my corporate lectures, I typically do about one hundred talks a year.

I'll probably do more this year because it's all virtual.

So I don't have to be like a Monday, Orlando, Tuesday, San Diego, Wednesday, Boston, Thursday, Scottsdale.

I can do multiple talks in a day, but typically I share the lessons from the first American Women's Everest expedition.

And I would get off stage and people are like, wait, where can I learn more?

Are there more?

You must have more stories.

And like, I have so many more stories, but I only have 50 minutes on stage.

So that's why I wrote the book so I could share all the stories.

And of course, the--I wrote, if anyone out there does happen to get my book, read the dedication to the book because I dedicated it to my dog, Trooper.

He's my twelve and a half year old black lab.

He's the best dog, but--and there's pictures of him in the book is funny because my publisher is like, why are there pictures of your dog in this book?

Like, this is a book about climbing.

This is a business book.

And I'm like, well, because--he said, well, your dog, he's this isn't a family photo album.

You know, this is a business book.

And I said either pictures of my dog go in the book or no pictures at all go in the book.

So they're pictures of my dog in the book.

That's--that's great.

I appreciate--I have a copy of the book.

I'm a big fan of it and I appreciate the chance and would highly encourage it.

Alison, in our last minute or so here, we're--so--cases are down on the pandemic.

Vaccines are rolling out.

I think we're hopeful for the last time.

Any-- any final words of advice to folks as they're trying to make it that last little piece of the journey to sort of the return to somewhat normalcy?

Yeah, I think to remember to have compassion as we return to normalcy.

So the vaccine is becoming more and more available for various age groups, and I hope everyone will get it.

But I know there are some people that are hesitant about getting the vaccine.

But I just want to say that, remember, everybody's story is a little bit different.

Everyone's comfort level is a little bit different.

And to just have compassion and understand, we're all coming back into the--the normal, the new normal world in different ways.

And, you know, to remember a few kind words of support and compassion can really go a long way with people.

And that doesn't--doesn't cost you any money, doesn't take any special training.

But just a few words of encouragement to people who have been struggling can really change the outcome of a situation, I would argue could completely change somebody's life.

Seriously, a few kind words to share with people.

So just remember, like we're all--everyone's situations, a little bit different, have some compassion, have some patience and understand, you know, we all want the same thing, which is to return to normal, healthy lives, normal, healthy businesses.

And even though some people have felt like there have been some great setbacks over the year, like we will get there, you guys, we--we are climbing this mountain together.

I want people to remember you are not alone.

You may have felt alone at times during this pandemic when you were remote, working remotely, but you are never alone and you're not alone going forward.

Alison, thank you so much.

You're an inspiration to all of us.

We appreciate you being here with the story.

We're really honored--.

Honor's all mine, the honor's all mine.

Well, Thank you.

We look forward to connecting again soon.

That's it for our show today.

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I'm Jeff Rea.

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