(upbeat music) (graphics popping) - Hello and welcome to "The Journal."

I'm Steve Kendall.

Ohio citizens have made several attempts to fix redistricting and the districting process in the state, but here we are again talking about trying to draw fair districts as we approach different elections.

Joining us today is someone from Fair Districts Ohio, Deborah Dalke.

We want to welcome you here because the Fair Districts Coalition is once again saying more work to be done on this.

So I thank you for being here today, so appreciate it very much.

- [Deborah] Well, I'm very happy to be here because I'm extremely passionate about this topic.

- [Steve] Yeah, now talk about the Fair Districts Coalition because as I said, Ohioans going back to 2015, have made attempts with constitutional amendments even to find a way, a process that will allow the state to have what most people would deem to be fair districts, whether it's state House districts or it's congressional districts.

And yet here we are eight, nine years later, and we're still talking about how can we make this process work to everyone's satisfaction?

- Okay, I first want to mention the name, Citizens Not Politicians.

Because that is the name of the amendment that we're gonna be talking about.

But it's also the name of the organization.

Oh, it's the organization that actually administers this process.

So they take care of all of the paperwork.

Now Fair Districts, who we are, we're a non-partisan group of redistricting advocates and experts.

It's led by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and Common Cause, and there are a large number of organizations that are involved.

So it includes ACLU, Ohio Council of Churches, A. Philip Randolph Institute, Voter Rights Coalition, and more.

So what we do, so Fair Districts, we have a ton of volunteers all over the state.

We're really busy collecting signatures to get this petition on the ballot in November.

We educate people.

So like I'm doing here, we have speakers who can go to different organizations and explain what the amendment is about.

And then in the fall, we're going to work to get it passed.

- Yeah, now, when you talk about the groups that are involved, this is obviously a broad range of people because sometimes I believe, you know, when people hear about a group and a particular amendment, that sort of thing, or an initiative, they think, oh, it's a small group of people really narrowly focused.

But this spans a wide group, as you mentioned.

What is the concern that we have?

And you mentioned Citizens Not Politicians.

What's at the gist of this, what is the concern about the way we're doing it now versus the way we think would be a better way and a more fair way to draw districts in the state?

- Okay, exactly.

You've mentioned the fact that we have tried numerous times to do this.

The League of Women Voters and other groups, we've been working at this since the 1980s.

And the problem is that 20 years ago when we talked to citizens about the redistricting process, that citizens tended to have a lot of trust in their politicians.

So they didn't see any reason for taking this job away from their politicians.

So I think in the last 10 years, as the last reforms didn't work as well as they wanted, that people are beginning to realize we really need a completely new system.

So the Citizens Not Politicians Amendment, why it's given that name is that it actually does take the job of approving the maps out of the hands of the politicians and it gives it to we the people.

- [Steve] Ah, yeah because I know one of, right now, the current board that sits there are basically elected officials for the most part.

And I think the theory was that, okay, you'll get a sort of balance on that group that sits down and then looks at these maps and approves them.

But as we found out, and we've discussed this on this program a number of times, several years ago it ended up at the State Supreme Court.

And in the end, there was a back and forth there.

And we've ended up with districts that we draw after every Census, we draw there every so many years.

What will be different, we look at the current way we do it, so, who sits on that panel right now and why is that seemingly a problem at this stage?

'Cause people are gonna say, "Well, we have districts.

Why is there, what do we need to do?

We've got districts, I voted this time, I don't see a problem."

- So the current Redistricting Commission consists of the Governor, the Auditor, the Secretary of State, and then four people who are appointed by the State Legislature.

And typically they're actually appoint themselves to be the Commission.

So the politicians are in charge.

- [Steve] Okay.

- And here is the issue.

It's job security.

We all want job security.

So when politicians, when they're looking at Ohio, and figuring out how to draw the districts, what they're thinking about is, how can I create a district that will increase the likelihood that I'm going to get elected?

How can I create a district that will increase the likelihood that my party will stay in power?

So they hand-select the people that are going to be in these districts.

So what this amendment will do, is ordinary citizens, assuming you aren't a politician or a paid staffer of a politician or a paid lobbyist, you can actually be on the Commission.

It will consist of five Democrats, five Republicans, five Independents.

We look at the voting records of the people to make sure that they're in the category that they're saying that they're in.

We look at the political contributions that they've made, so to make sure that they really are of the category that they're representing.

And they're going to be the ones that will approve the maps.

- Hm mm, now, I know people are going to say, and from a devil's advocate there say, "Well, you can't take the politics out of this.

There's always gonna be politics."

But obviously this effort is to move it away from elected officials because that's the method that we're currently using.

And there has been some dissatisfaction.

Even the state Supreme Court at one time said, "Some of these districts are not constitutional, the way you're doing it."

But this is where we are.

When someone says, "Well, you're gonna select people who are members of different parties, they might not be elected officials, but they're still gonna be, they're still gonna have a bias towards certain things," what's the argument that says, "Well, yes, but here's why this will be better."

- [Deborah] Okay, first of all, I can talk about myself.

I grew up in California.

So I grew up in a state that was gerrymandered by the Democrats.

I voted to stop gerrymandering when I lived in California and the Democrats did it.

So now I'm in Ohio and I've voting to stop gerrymandering when the Republicans will do it.

I don't think I'm alone out there.

I don't think, I think there are a lot more people like myself who really believe in fairness.

That's a real important American value.

We don't want students to cheat in school.

We don't want athletes to cheat.

So why do we want our politicians to cheat and create districts that benefit them?

So that's one of the reasons why we can get bias out of the system.

The other thing is, there's a couple of really interesting elements to the process.

One of them that is going to prevent bias is this random element.

So anybody in Ohio can apply to be on the Commission.

- [Steve] Okay.

- And there's various steps that's sort of weeding people out.

And my favorite part of this process is once there are 15 finalists, and every time they reduce the candidate pool, they're making sure that there's the same number of Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.

So once it gets down to 15 in each category, a random process picks in.

- [Steve] Ah.

- The judges who are overseeing this process, they will then randomly pick two of the 15 Democratic finalists, two of the 15 Republican, two of the 15 Independent.

And those randomly chosen people will be the first people on the Commission.

Then they go back and look at the applications to pick the other three in each category.

So they've thought about reducing bias this way.

Because the judges, the people who are overseeing the process, they might have a favorite 'cause they've looked at all these applications.

- [Steve] Sure.

- So this prevents them from having their favorite actually be on the Commission.

- [Steve] Ah!

Okay.

When we come back, we can talk more about this because obviously one of the things that we look at too, and you mentioned gerrymandering, we kind of talked a little bit, but we can talk a little about the effects and what that does to overall democracy in the state.

Back in just a moment with Deborah Dalke.

We're talking about the Fair Districts Coalition and also Citizens Not Politicians.

Back in just a moment here on "The Journal."

Thank you for staying with us here on "The Journal."

Our guest is Deborah Dalke and we're talking about gerrymandering in Ohio and potentially a new initiative by citizens to find a way to remove that impact that its currently had on the state.

Some people would argue that everything's fine, nothing to see here.

Do you actually have any active opposition to this proposal?

Are there are people saying, "Well, everything's working fine.

We held elections, people got elected.

Legislature is there, state offices are filled, congressional seats are filled."

Is there an active group saying, "We don't need this, everything's good."

- [Deborah] Well so far, I can talk about active individuals because I am one of the people that are out there on the street corner trying to get people to sign the petition.

And occasionally, you do run into somebody who says, "I love gerrymandering."

(Steve laughing) But there are people who have some misconceptions about who actually does the redistricting as when I tell people that we want to have a citizens' commission, is they say they are already citizens on the Redistricting Commission.

And that's not true.

So yeah, we will, because there are people who really want their team to win regardless.

So we are going to have that opposition.

- Sure, and when you look at the state, I know that while we may not be the worst at gerrymandering or the best at it, however you wanna look at it, we're usually somewhere near the top of the list of states that are pointed out as ones that have extremely gerrymandered districts, whether it's at the state level or the congressional level.

What sort of thing, and I know you, we've got some of the maps kind of behind us here a little bit in the background, what are some of the typical ways that people go about putting together a gerrymandered district?

I mean, obviously you mentioned too that people are, well they wanna make sure that I win and my friend in the district next door wins.

How do they go about, how do they construct that in a way that at least on the surface meets the guidelines that currently exist, or somehow find a way, the loopholes, in the guidelines that currently exist?

- Well, I'm glad you mentioned loopholes because one of the things that this new amendment will do is it does make some of the criteria a little bit clearer.

So it will make it a little bit harder to violate the rules.

But I can talk about like, what are some of the strategies?

Because we can look at how you would take a population and draw different districts and how the type of districts that you draw will actually determine who's going to win that district.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- So, can I go ahead and talk about these?

- [Steve] Sure!

Oh absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

- So there's a diagram that you're going to see.

And as an example, it uses a population that consists of 50 different critters.

- [Steve] Okay.

- So 20 of them are cats and 30 of them are dogs.

So in this population, the majority of the inhabitants are dogs.

But there's a fair number of cats, 40% are cats.

- [Steve] Right.

- So we're going to assume that the law requires that this population be divvied up into five different districts.

Each district consisting of 10 individuals.

Because incidentally, that is why we do redistricting.

Some people say, "Why do we do it?"

And over time, the different districts are going to vary in terms of how they change in population.

Some districts are gonna increase in population, others decrease.

- [Steve] Decrease.

- So the real purpose of redistricting is to bring all the districts of the same type back in balance so that they all have the same number of people.

So I'm gonna show you three different ways that we could divide these 50 critters into districts and the repercussions of that.

- [Steve] Okay.

- So in the chart that is labeled 1, we've divvied up the population into districts by columns.

So what you see in the diagram is there's two columns off to the left of 10 cats and there's three columns off to the right of 10 dogs.

So we have districts that are homogeneous.

But the important thing is that, we're going to assume that if an election is being held, that the cats are gonna vote for cats, and the dogs are going to vote for dogs.

So the likely outcome of an election here is that two cats would be elected and three dogs would be elected.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- Now, I wanna point out that these districts are homogeneous, they're all of the same type of critter.

And we couldn't actually accomplish that in the real world because we're putting houses into districts and, as you know, some houses have both cats and dogs.

- [Steve] Right.

- So it wouldn't be possible.

And some political scientists say that this really wouldn't be ideal because democracy works better if there's some amount of competition of ideas.

So we don't want the districts to look like this.

But there's an important point, is that in this population, two out of five inhabitants are cats, and two out of five of the elected officials would be cats.

So that's what we consider to be fair districting when the representatives reflect how- - [Steve] The actual, sort of the population in that district within, you know, yeah, within region.

- [Deborah] Exactly!

Exactly.

- [Steve] Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I know when they talk about the state of Ohio, if you look at our presidential votes, we're kind of a 55/45.

But then if you look at who we elect to Congress or who we send to the State Legislature, whether it's the senator or the House, those numbers aren't 55/45, they're more like 70/30, 65/35.

So, which is sort of an indication that we have some imbalance in our district drawing.

- [Deborah] Yeah, and the second redistricting plan is actually going to illustrate that point.

- [Steve] Ah, okay.

- So in the second redistricting plan, we've divvied up the population to districts based upon rows.

So we have five districts that are actually identical.

In each of the districts, we have four cats and six dogs.

So the dogs outnumber the cats in every single district.

So the likely outcome here is- - [Steve] Is all those districts are gonna elect dogs.

- [Deborah] All those districts are going to elect dogs.

So the cat voice has been completely silenced.

So this gets to what you were talking about, is where we don't have districts that actually reflect the way people vote.

- [Steve] Hm mm, yeah.

And so when we do this, so what's our solution?

Is that gonna be the third thing we see here?

Are we gonna use- - [Deborah] Well actually- - [Steve] Okay not.

Okay.

- [Deborah] The third one is gonna show you how we can actually, the clever little kitties can actually figure out how to get the upper hand of the dogs.

- [Steve] Okay.

All right.

(laughing) - [Deborah] Because in the third diagram, it's a little bit hard to see, I wish they'd drawn the district lines a little bit darker, but if you look up at the top row on the upper left, we have two cats.

The line separating them indicates that those two cats are in different districts.

So we take that kitty to the right and her district, or his district, goes across the top, picks up three dogs, goes down the right hand side, picking up more dogs, and then moving over and picking up a couple more dogs.

That district consists of one cat and nine dogs.

Right below it, is an identical district that consists of, you see there are three dogs in a row, and then moving down, picking up more dogs, down to the bottom row, even more dogs.

And then one little cat.

There's a term for this that the mapmakers use that is called packing.

- Ah!

Okay.

- What they have done is they have packed as many dogs as they can into those two districts.

And what it does is it allows for cat majorities in the remaining three districts.

- [Steve] Ah, okay.

- [Deborah] So in the remaining three districts, we have a sideways tee at the top of six cats and four dogs.

Same shaped district in the bottom of six cats and four dogs.

And one in the middle also of six cats.

So here, the likely outcome here of an election is that three cats would win and only two dogs.

So it's the sum total of looking at these three districts that shows you how dramatically we can impact who's going to be elected based upon how we draw the district.

- [Steve] How you move elements around within the district.

- [Deborah] Exactly.

- [Steve] Whether they're cats and dogs or they're Democrats or Republicans.

- [Deborah] Exactly.

- [Steve] Yeah, yeah.

- So we could have no cats elected, we could have two cats elected or three cats elected, depending upon how we draw the districts.

- Okay, when we come back, let's talk about what you folks believe would be the solution to this and how to get that before the voters in November.

Because that's obviously, that's a heavy lift these days and there have been efforts to make it more difficult to get amendments or things on the ballot.

So back in just a moment, we're talking about gerrymandering in Ohio and an effort to correct that particular problem.

Back in just a moment here on "The Journal."

You're with us on "The Journal," we're talking about who we vote for and why we vote for them in districts and certain things and the process that Ohio uses to draw those districts, whether it's the state level or the congressional level.

One of the things that comes up, they do when you mention to people, you know, you're gonna vote on certain candidates, we're talking about districts and does everybody really know what that means exactly?

I know they'll say, "Oh, I thought I was voting for these people.

Why can't I vote for so and so?"

Well, when you redraw the map, sometimes you move from one district to another.

So, what's the response when you talk to people on the street and say, "Hey, here's this initiative we're talking about.

We're talking about redrawing the districts, or a better process in our mind to redraw the districts."

What are some of the responses you get?

- When I mention the word redistricting and districts, I mean, some people, you can see they're a little bit confused but it's because they know the ideas but it's like they haven't really thought about them.

So the idea of a district, so some of our elected officials, they run across the entire state, like the governor.

- [Steve] Right.

Sure.

- We only have one governor and we all vote on the same candidates.

But others of our politicians, they only run in a particular part of the state in a particular district.

And usually all I have to do to get people really up to speed is just to mention the US House of Representatives.

- [Steve] Ah, okay.

- And the fact that if you live in Bowling Green, then you're in the district that Bob Latta ran- - [Steve] In the 5th congressional, yeah.

- [Deborah] Ran in and won.

If you live up in Toledo, you are in the district that Marcia Kaptur ran in.

- [Steve] The 9th Congressional district, yeah.

- [Deborah] So then it's like, okay, I get it.

I know what you're talking about now.

So we have, we currently in Ohio, we have 15 members of the House of Representatives, so we have 15 congressional districts.

And then the State Legislature too.

And I wish people would pay more attention to what their state legislators are doing, because they really have a big impact on us.

So across Ohio, we have 99 members of the state House.

We have 33 state senators.

So every 10 years, by law, we have to redraw the districts to account- - [Steve] To reflect the changes in population shifts and growth or lack of growth or whatever.

- Exactly, because it wouldn't be fair for some districts to have twice as many people as other districts.

So that's the redistricting process.

And as you mentioned, some people up in Ohio, or here in Northern Ohio, they remember the Snake on the Lake.

- [Steve] Right.

(chuckling) - So, it's been changed.

- [Steve] Right.

- So it is shorter and it is fatter, but I still like talking about it because when you, if you need to give a really clear example of the problem with redistricting, talking about the Snake on the Lake really clicks with people.

Because the old Snake on the Lake, it ran all the way from Toledo to the outskirts of Cleveland.

- [Steve] Cleveland, sure.

- So think about this, if you are in the suburbs of Cleveland, Cleveland's the important community for you.

If you have a medical emergency, you're probably gonna go into Cleveland.

- [Steve] To Cleveland, yeah.

The Cleveland area, yeah.

- Restaurants, you probably shop there, you may even work there.

So if there's a problem in Cleveland that concerns you, then what do you do?

You talk to your representative.

Well you would have been in a fix because your representative- - [Steve] Lives in Toledo.

- [Deborah] And represents Toledo.

- [Steve] And is appropriately as in the district as it's drawn, so technically no harm, no foul, but they're not as close to Cleveland as you would like them to be.

- Yeah, well, and also they're not responsible for Cleveland.

Cleveland is not in their district.

- [Steve] Right.

Right.

- So this is a really good illustration of how gerrymandering, it breaks apart our communities and it makes it harder for us to advocate for our needs.

And that's one of the rules in the new redistricting plan is to really keep our communities together.

- [Steve] Okay, so we've got about two minutes here to encapsulate what your proposal currently is and what you need to do to get it on the ballot.

So talk about this initiative and what you need to get done between now, well not November, but before November, to put this on the ballot so we can look at a different way to draw these districts.

- Okay, so our amendment, not only does it put citizens in charge, the rules have been tightened up, and there's rules for not splitting our communities.

So what we need to do is we need to right now we need to collect signatures across the state.

We need about 400,000 signatures.

We need some specifically from the different counties.

So if you want to help us, what you can do is sign the petition.

I'm a member of the Bowling Green League of Women Voters, so if you are here in Bowling Green, I have the contact information for you.

You can just contact our League and we can tell you where you can go to sign a petition, if you want to volunteer, if you need a speaker, we can help you in all those ways.

- [Steve] Now, do you need to be a registered voter to sign this or your signature doesn't count, I'm correct?

- [Deborah] Yeah.

- [Steve] Okay, all right.

Yeah.

- You need to be a registered voter and you also have to sign a petition for your county.

Now we're having a drive-through signature signing event on April 20th from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM at the Peace Lutheran Church here in town.

We bring the petition to you.

- [Steve] Bowling Green.

- [Deborah] And so you stay in your car, we'll bring you a petition.

We're having a tent there, so rain or shine, we'll be there.

And we have petitions for the different counties.

- [Steve] Ah, okay.

- So you can come from anywhere in Ohio and you can sign our petition there.

- [Steve] Yeah.

Okay, great.

Well thank you so much Deborah Dalke for being on.

And obviously more to come on this as we move through the spring and summer.

Because there is a deadline, you have to have those signatures filed a date, I think, in August sometime?

- Well, it's actually in July where they have to be- - [Steve] In July, okay.

- But we have to have them all in ahead of that time because we gotta make sure that we've got all the signatures we need.

- [Steve] The numbers you need.

All right.

Okay, good.

Well thank you so much for coming on and helping illuminate this issue because obviously, it's just that we've been talking about it for a long time and multiple attempts to correct it, to make it a better process.

And maybe this will be the time that it actually happens.

So thank you so much.

- [Deborah] My pleasure.

- [Steve] Yeah.

Great.

- And I hope your audience is enthusiastic about this and ready to sign the petition.

- [Steve] Good.

Sounds good.

Thank you so much.

- [Deborah] Thank you!

- Yeah, you can check us out at WBGU.org.

You can watch us every Thursday night at 8:00 PM here on WBGU-PBS.

We will see you again next time.

Goodnight and good luck.

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