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- Distrust and suspicion are at the highest levels than maybe they've been in several years, if not decades.

I'm Chris William, and welcome again to the longest-running and most widely-watched source of Carolina business, policy and public affairs, seen each and every week across North and South Carolina for more than 30 years.

Thank you for supporting this dialogue.

In a moment, we have a panel of insiders that we affectionately call, and they are going to wade in on public trust and where it is now.

And we start right now.

- [Announcer] Major funding also by BlueCross BlueShield of South Carolina, an independent licensee of the BlueCross and BlueShield Association.

And Martin Marietta, a leading provider of natural, resource-based building materials, providing the foundation on which our communities improve and grow.

On this edition of Carolina Business Review, Christopher Chung from the Economic Development Partnership of North Carolina.

Susie Shannon of the South Carolina Council on Competitiveness.

Donald Thompson from the Diversity Movement.

And Sara Fawcett of the United Way of the Midlands.

(upbeat music) - Welcome again to our program.

This is the second week that we're together.

And I think we're still kind of living off the great emotion of actually being together.

I love having you guys in here.

Edelman does a survey, advertising agency, marketing research, does a survey around trust, but they've been doing this for several years now, and I have in front of me, it's called the Trust Top 10.

And I wanna read part of it to you because it's important.

And this is a results of the survey from 2022.

And the Edelman Trust 10 includes the number one item that they identified as being most crucial at this point is distrust is now society's default emotion.

I'll let that sink in for a second.

Distrust is now society's default emotion.

Nearly 6 in 10 say their default tendency is to distrust something until they see the evidence it's trustworthy.

Another 64% say it's now to a point where people are incapable of having constructive and civil debates about the issues.

That's quite an indictment.

Sara, how does that wash over you?

- I mean, we do not assume goodwill anymore.

We don't assume goodwill.

I think it used to be that you assumed, out of the gate, that someone was coming from a point of going for the common good, or trying to understand, questioning an issue, or bringing something up to understand meaning.

We don't assume goodwill anymore.

I don't assume that you're coming from a place of goodwill.

I assume you're coming from a place of suspicion, and how do we get that back?

- Don?

How does this wash over you?

What's the genesis of that?

- Well, I don't know the genesis, but I know the world we live in right now is, and I'll use politics as an example, right?

It's always a verbal food fight, right?

It's not a debate on the specific issues, it's a debate on who can yell the loudest, who can demean the most.

And what we've done is we've allowed in our culture for that negativity to be front and center.

And then what's buried is those of us that wanna work together to try to solve problems.

And so, that's the current space that we live.

How do we address it?

How do we solve it?

One of the things I think is super important is that, for those of us that are in leadership and have the opportunity to dialogue with others, that we create the model, if you will, that just because we may disagree, I wanna know what's behind the disagreement, because there might be some common ground.

And, at some point, business leaders, school leaders, politicians, need to take a step back and say, what are we actually trying to accomplish for the people that we say we're gonna serve?

- Chris, what do you think?

- Well, one, it's a sad statement, right?

I mean, as someone with young kids, I hope that by the time they're of adult age, these statistics look a little bit more encouraging.

But I think distrust at that level really inhibits the ability of any society to work together when major challenges present themselves.

And I think we saw a little bit of that during the pandemic, unfortunately, if there's gonna be another Covid, whether it's a pandemic or some truly global challenge that we have to address or we're all gonna sink, if we don't have that fundamental trust between individuals, and citizens, and communities, and countries, that's not gonna help us overcome what could be the next existential threat facing not just North Carolina, or South Carolina, or the United States, I mean, could be global humanity.

And I don't know what that looks like, and I hope that's not in my lifetime, but if none of us are trusting one another, and we're all kind of in it for ourselves, that's not a good recipe for the kind of collaboration that's necessary to really overcome the biggest challenges facing humanity.

- And Susie, this is not asking you to comment on this, but you can't help think the congressional debate around raising the debt ceiling.

And, again, I don't wanna ask you if you wanna handicap that we're gonna go over the edge on that, like we did in 2012, but, you do think of evidence like that, you do think of moments like that, and how crucial to have that currency of trust.

Is this, as we just talked about, is this cynicism?

Or is this skepticism?

What do you think is driving this?

- Well, speaking as a human who's, I wouldn't call myself Pollyanna, but certainly optimistic, right?

Or hopeful, I should say, more than anything else, and then, of course, coming from an organization where I have a lot of passion and commitment where the collaborative framework is in our DNA, so it's hard for me not to think that we can't have these public/private bridges to overcome.

We know that everyone who comes in the room is gonna have some self-serving agenda.

That's just a fact of life.

All of us are gonna do that.

It's just how much of that can be checked out the door, so that, at least, you're bringing some semblance of looking for that common good, being hopeful, trying to dispel that cynicism.

Because, at the end of the day, if we can all at least agree on a collective impact model, so we may all have different ways of getting to a common goal, at least, if we're all in the room.

But that means we've got to throw out the echo chamber, right?

We get back to inclusion, all those voices have to be in the room, because if we're just hearing what's bouncing off the wall, what's bouncing off the mirror, then we're never gonna advance forward.

- So, this would be a good place to answer the number two thing that rose to the top of this Edelman Trust survey for last year.

And I wanna read it.

Of the studied institutions, and, by the way, this survey's pretty exhaustive, 36 countries, almost 100,000 respondents, all different demographics.

The number two most important result in this survey was of the studied institutions, business is once again the most trusted.

So, Don, since you are in boardrooms and in C-suites, advising, should business be the lead?

And how does business be the convener, when sometimes you look at business, and we know singularly what businesses are trying to do is they're trying to raise revenue, and go down that road.

- One of the things about having a very specific goal and function is it crystallizes your behaviors in order to achieve it.

So, businesses are to create shareholder value to grow and build revenue, right?

Grow market share.

Because of that, if you now have to treat employees with a more empathetic lens to retain them, so you can meet those revenue goals, CEOs and C-suite leaders are adopting that empathetic model in order to win in the marketplace.

If you have to change your branding such that it is more inclusive, organizations and companies will do that.

If you think about 10, 15, 20 years ago, there weren't a lot of people in TV ads that looked like me.

But if you look at advertising today, it is more inclusive.

Why is that?

Because companies wanna sell more product to more people, therefore they're changing their internal mechanisms to meet that objective.

So, business, quite frankly, is actually the most pure form of change because the targets are clear and stated, and then in order to meet those targets, you have to move with what is going on in the current demographics of our country, and there are more and more people that are from multicultural backgrounds than ever before, and businesses are working on that.

- And that can't hurt.

But let me ask you this way.

- Sure.

- And don't wanna go too fa- I promise I'm gonna get everybody a chance to jump in 'cause I know you can't wait.

Is the idea that DEI, and let's talk about DEI 'cause we were talking about last week.

It does bring to the table obviously a lot of different points of view, and you have referred to that as part of a solution, that's tactical, though.

How do we get to a strategic, what's the strategic core of why we don't trust each other?

- If you think about relationships, right?

If you've been hurt in a relationship before, you bring that baggage forward to the next one.

So I think, as a society, we've allowed ourselves with all the bots, and the different things, and all the social media, and all the selling that's done in digital, right?

That we've gotten taken, whether it's by a politician that lied to us, whether it is an organization that didn't deliver on their promise with their product, and that created fear, uncertainty and doubt that everyone was gonna treat me that way.

So, what we have to do is we have to get really practical.

So that means, when I'm working with a leader or someone on my team, and they may not be hitting the standard of business excellence, do I assume they're a bad person that they wanted to mess up on purpose?

Or maybe there's something going on in their life that's contributing to it?

So, one conversation at a time, we have to be more thoughtful.

- Chris, you're in Government, of course it's a non-profit, different hybrid type of agency, but not many people have much credibility with Government, or don't have much trust in Government.

So, when you hear these readings, when you think about this issue that we're talking about, how do you approach it?

How do you think the place to close the gap and to rebuild?

- Well.

It's interesting 'cause I think one of the other Edelman findings is that the respondents feel like businesses really should be the ones leading the way on some of these major societal issues, which is interesting, it goes to some of Don's earlier points about how people perceive businesses.

I look at the trust issue playing out, at least in our world in economic development right now, it's interesting this whole debate between companies allowing people to work remotely versus work in the office.

And that trust is built into what a company decides to do, right?

'Cause there are plenty of CEOs on record saying they don't trust their employees to be productive when they're working from home, even if this data may show otherwise.

And I think overcoming that level of distrust, that's gonna be really interesting because I think so much of where this remote work and hybrid ends up playing out is gonna be, because it's gonna boil down to some of this trust that employers have with their employees.

But I don't think it's a good policy for CEOs to be out there saying, hey, I don't trust my people to be doing what we need them to do when they're not showing up in the office.

I don't think that's probably a wise strategy in this kind of labor market that we're in right now.

- Sara, this seems like this would be a great spot for the not-for-profits and the philanthropic, I don't wanna say the softer science, because you all are very strategic about things.

But it does seem like it's a safer place to have that dialogue, for you to be the convener.

So, well, then what's the lack of trust and how can we help you build that?

- Yeah, yeah.

And you're exactly right.

And how do we help to build that?

You still have the same issue of what's our starting point?

And as I've been thinking through this and listening to this discussion, I'm thinking that the societal infrastructure that we have today, which really is only, it's less than 20 years old, when you think about the iPhone was introduced in 2007, and all the accessibility and information and all of that, that's at hand, it's been here less than 20 years.

And you think about the societal infrastructure for the 50 years before that, we've had so much rapid change in all of the things that allow us to express ourselves, or get our information from, or how to implement solutions, you know?

That we haven't caught up, we haven't caught up, it's changed so rapidly, so the infrastructure's changed very rapidly and we, as a society, haven't been able to keep up with that.

- So, I don't wanna be too simplistic, are you saying that our technology is way ahead of our ethics?

- Yeah.

- Do you think it'll eventually catch up?

- I think it depends on if we can become more adept at the changes that keep coming.

I didn't say that very gracefully, but I think we, as a society, either we've got to, well, we have to catch up to where we are, but then we've gotta be able to continually, rapidly evolving.

But it all goes back to that where are we starting from and where do I assume you are coming from?

- Yeah, and technology, if you look at something like social media, what that's allowed people to do is pursue their own sources of information.

There's no longer these authorities of information that provide neutral, arbitrate information, everyone is pursuing whatever reinforces their world views, and that goes back to some of the Edelman findings, which is people no longer, they have such different opinions and informa- because they're not sharing the same common set of information from which to derive those opinions.

And that's a problem in politics, that's a problem in how our media is very fragmented now.

And I think all of that's contributing to this growing distrust across all developed countries right now.

- How long do you think this goes before we hit a tipping point?

- Honestly, I don't even know that I can speculate.

What I do wanna say is on that technology advancement, and whether it's Moore's Law or whatever you wanna look at it, ethics trying to keep up with technology, the way that technology is speeding up, we're gonna play catch-up across the board, whether it's laws regulating technology, whether it's the science of ethics surrounding technology, so, think ethics and artificial intelligence, and what gets attached to that.

There's a certain AI tool that's in the news trending right now.

- Sure.

Right.

- I love the fact that, oh, well, remember the calculator?

I remember being a student, and I won't say how long ago, where using a calculator in my test or in the classroom was absolutely prohibited.

Now, you can just pull out your phone and use a calculator.

So, I think we're gonna see those types of artifices begin to move along and everything else is just gonna have to catch up.

And I think it's that exponential advancement, so maybe there's no true tipping point.

It's just this cyclical catch up, pull back, catch up, pull back, that's gonna happen with regulation, with politics, with this cycle of distrust that needs to be broken, it's sort of like an addiction.

You gotta figure out a weak point within that cycle, and that's where you apply all of your resources.

- So, Don, you're closest to our spiritual sensei on this panel because of your work.

- I'll take it.

(Don laughing) - Well, maybe not when I ask you this question.

So, again, we're talking about these tactical fixes that if we present ourselves differently, we are open-minded, we do all these things but...

Yes, but I guess what I'm trying to understand is I'm thinking about the lessons that parents teach their children about behavior toward other people.

And I know this sounds so old-school.

- Sure.

- But it kind of is, when we are taught a certain thing, and when we go into an environment, or we go into the structure of an organization, and we bring that set of values and ethics into that organization, doesn't that have something to do with it?

- I think it does.

And the way that I would kind of flip that question or comment around is, what's the responsibility of a leader?

So, if you lead an organization of 10 people, 10,000 people, or 100,000 people or more, you have an amplification effect with your behavior, with your words, what you recognize within the organization.

And so, if Edelman is correct, let's assume that data is correct, that leaders in business now have a different set of expectations, then that means the way that we speak about one another, whether we agree or disagree, the way that we handle issues that happen in our company that become public.

If you're laying off 10,000 people, do you just cut them on a Zoom?

Or do you have a thoughtful process that you have to make that tough business decision?

So I think, quite frankly, is that leaders have a different responsibility to do the things that meet the financial standards, but do it in an empathetic way, so that we can create new examples and new heroes of what proper treatment of others, the human approach, if you will, to leadership and let that lead the way.

And I think it's a bigger responsibility.

- Chris, I don't wanna dismiss the media, because the media is a utility, and it's an important utility since the dawn of the democracy.

What role does the media have to play in this?

- Well, in my lifetime, the media has gone from a relatively seen as neutral, objective reporter of facts, and, somehow, over the past 30 or 40 years, we've moved into this world where, again, like I said earlier, people can pursue whatever form of media reinforces their world view, even if the facts being reported on are depicted completely differently.

And I don't know how you put that toothpaste back in the tube.

I mean, that's just a function of how technology and media trends have really evolved to this point.

And I don't see it going back to the days of Walter Cronkite being the one voice that everyone respected and trusted, that's not gonna happen.

So, how do we manage around that?

I mean, do you regulate this more?

I really don't have the solid answers, 'cause I don't think this is an easy issue to address, but it's clearly one of those things that's contributing fundamentally to this lack of trust among the population.

'Cause we all subscribe to our own opinions and information sources, and there's a widening gap between those two things.

- Does anyone here stretch themselves, when it comes to the media, to say, I traditionally go to X, Y and Z in the morning, and get my input, I download what I need, but let me try this one, or let me try that one.

Maybe Sara, somewhere you wouldn't normally check for another op-ed or another- - I think it's a great point.

I mean, I subscribe to- - Do you?

- Well, no, I do because I subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, I subscribe to the New York Times, and read them both every day, as much as I can, you know?

- Sure.

- And you can see two headlines about one issue that read completely differently.

And I appreciate your question because I think I do need to continue to expand my own sources of where I get information.

And it needs to be from all perspectives.

I think, Chris, going back to what you were saying just a minute ago, I think you still have kids at home, I still have kids at home, I think we have to be teaching them to think critically.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- So that they can go out to these - That's right.

- various new, because you're right, we're not gonna put the toothpaste back in the tube because obviously it pays for the media to take one side or the other.

But how do I teach my kids to seek out diverse perspectives and then analyze that, and think through it, and then come up with their own conclusions on it.

- And the business community wants that.

They want that critical thinking.

And, by the way, when you poll the business community, and I'm actually speaking more toward the South Carolina business community, even using a conservative pollster, and making sure the questions are actually kind of tilted, right?

Biased toward maybe evoking more of that conservative viewpoint on what a school's responsibility is.

Nevertheless, more than 90% actually view those critical thinking skills as a co-shared responsibility with the schools and back at home.

- And we've got about four minutes, so, Don, as Susie just said, so again, if you wanna be a convener, you're gonna put yourself in a position that you can be distrusted by both sides that you're trying to bring together.

- Sure.

- So how do you do that?

I mean, how do you intentionally put yourself in harm's way, to know that you might not be liked, that it might ostracize you, how do you still find, and I'm not talking about you, necessarily, but how does someone find, courage is probably a little bit old-school, but courage to say, I wanna bring together the, yes, you're right about this point, yes, you're right about that, but I wanna bring together the idea that maybe you both have a point, and it sounds great for a script, but how do you actually do it?

- Yeah.

In practice, and I'll be brief, what is the common thing that we both wanna accomplish together?

And if we find that, then the how-to can be something we can discuss and debate, but you've gotta have some common focus, whether it's revenue, whether it is membership growth, whether it is more kids that have better childcare, whatever that common theme is, then you can evoke a lot of different ideas around that theme.

But somebody's gotta help narrow down the discussion, so that it is very pointed and principled, and then you can bring other voices and have a healthier debate.

- Again, I wanna go back to how do you get subscription from people that will do that when they know that you, this is gonna be really ethereal, but when maybe you Don don't have their back as they see it, but you're more interested in expanding the dialogue and not just their point of view.

And they're friends of yours, or they're colleagues of yours.

- Yeah.

Friends or colleagues I think are actually simpler because you can really look and say, Chris, for this next 30 minutes, let's just use this sheet of paper, blank, and let's figure out how you and I can get over there, and let's do it together, right?

If we're friends or colleagues, even if we have different points of view, that is an easier thing to do than we would think, right?

If you set the tone and the dialogue of the conversation appropriately.

And I've seen that work in a lot of different conversations.

If you have a broad array of things you're trying to discuss, then people will naturally take their personal preference on it, but if you say, this is where we need to get to in the next 30, 40 minutes of this meeting, how do we wanna get there together?

And let's put these things on the table, and let the best idea fight it out.

- And you find that works more than it doesn't.

- It works more than it doesn't, because, at the end of the day, we're actually more alike than we're different.

We just allow the media and some outside things, to focus on our differences.

We actually want a lot of the same things.

We wanna educate our kids, we wanna get promoted at work, we wanna have a retirement that we can plan for.

Most people have some of the same basic things that they want.

- We've got about a minute left, so I just wanna go around quickly.

Chris, are you more encouraged that we're going to get through this lack of trust and we'll be able to reverse that?

- I am, despite what the stats say, I have the unique privilege of traveling all over North Carolina and spending time in all kinds of communities, different sizes, urban, rural, and when you are in these towns and you spend time with the people and you see that, to Don's point, they're generally all united around doing something that helps their community, that gives you a lot of energy, it gives you a lot of optimism and hope, whatever the stats say, and I have no doubt that given a survey question, people would answer that way, but maybe the way they conduct themselves in real life with their neighbors and their fellow residents actually looks a little bit different.

And that's what gives me some amount of optimism.

- Can we turn the cynicism ship, you think?

- Yeah, I think that we can, I mean we see that all the time in the work that we do, because we are dependent upon community volunteers to serve the community.

And if you get people of differing viewpoints, doing exactly what you said, Don, where you're focusing on one thing, whether that's serving a meal, whether that's staffing a bus, no matter what it is, that's a great starting point, is serving together.

And if we can get back to that.

- 30 seconds.

What do you think?

- You know, and I still think there's a delineation between distrust of institutions, whatever those institutions may look like, and distrust of people, because, again, we get back to that community, that local linking piece, I trust business, or even those who may have said, respondent who said, I distrust business, at the end of the day, if you asked, do you trust your coworker?

Yes.

Do you trust your boss?

Yes.

- Yeah.

But it goes from there.

Thank you, Susie.

And thanks for being our spiritual sensei.

- I'm glad to be here.

- [Chris] Guru Doc.

Good to see you all.

- [Donald] You as well.

This was really fun.

- Glad to see you.

Thanks for coming, Chris.

Thank you for watching our program.

Questions or comments?

CarolinaBusinessReview.org.

Goodnight.

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