Hello, and thanks for joining us for another episode of Mid American gardener.

I'm your host Tinisha, Spain.

And joining me in the studio today are two of your faves.

We've got Jen and chuck in the house today.

So let's have them introduce themselves.

And then we're going to jump in with today's discussion.

Chuck, we'll start with you.

All right.

I'm Chuck Voigt retired eight years ago from the Department of Crop Sciences at the University of Illinois.

My specialties there were vegetables and herbs, but my undergraduate education covered pretty much the gamut.

So we can feel questions if we get to that point.

Okay.

All right, Jen, Jen Nelson, and you can find me at the University of Illinois in the Department of Crop sciences.

I teach 105 vegetable gardening.

And I also had pretty broad education worked in extension for a long time.

And also you can find me online at groundedandgrowing.com, where I write about gardening.

Now you guys have known each other for years, right?

Yeah, when she was first a grad student, ancient, full circle.

Okay, so both of you brought things to talk about.

And then we've got some other cool stuff to talk about.

So Jen, we'll start with you.

You want to talk about deer damage?

Yeah, it was I was walking around trying to look for some Show and Tell items.

And I noticed these are both off of hydrangeas in our yard.

One is from Hydrangea paniculata and one is from OakLeaf hydrangea, but I recognize that the deer have been visiting our yard and how you can tell deer versus rabbit.

deer damage is usually it looks kind of ragged, raggedy and mess.

Not a clean cut.

And that's because deer only have bottom incisors.

They don't have any, any front teeth on the top, they just have kind of a rough patch.

So when they bite, they're not they can't bite clean through so they just kind of rip it.

And for both and if you were to look for versus rabbit damage, I did an example with my pruners.

Rabbit damage is almost always at a 45 degree angle clean cut.

It looks like you used to looks like you used pruners.

So that's what I did this morning.

Because I didn't see any rabbit damage offhand.

We haven't had any decent snow cover that stuck around this year.

But what can throw people for a loop is if you have decent snow cover for a while the rabbits will climb on top of that snow and get to the top parts of different shrubs in your yard.

And then when the snow recede, you're like what the heck of a giant rabbits in my yard or what.

But that's something to keep in mind.

But the deer like on the paniculata that's not gonna affect much of how it blooms because it blooms on new and old wood on the OakLeaf hydrangea.

It's going to potentially have they've potentially eaten some of my future flowers and not happy about that.

But they didn't eat it to the ground so I can live and let live.

And maybe maybe next year I'll be better about spraying some of the deterrence.

I'm just ran out of time this year.

Have you had luck with the the spray deterrent?

Yeah, I we have had luck with them.

We've done different things over the years.

Irish Spring soap seems to work really well.

We've used some that have lovely things like putrefied eggs and putrefied blood.

Such kind of stinks when you're putting it on.

But once it dries, you don't smell it, but they can.

Interesting.

Do you know why they choose these two munches their particular they must taste good.

That's all they did.

On the on both of them.

All they did was take the outer buds, so those must be particularly tasty.

If the plants were smaller, I would worry more because there's more potential that they could chew them all the way to the ground.

But I know they're getting big enough that I don't think that's going to be an issue unless our deer numbers grow dramatically up.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Did you want to add anything to that?

Do you not know the pain of that?

Yeah, that we have some deer damage.

Fortunately knock wood wherever there's some wood.

Not.

It's not terrible.

We didn't start out having much deer damage at all.

But we've had a lot of development by us and so they've been pushed off of where they normally found easy pickings.

And your yard is pretty Lush.

And yeah.

And they've come they've come clear up to the house like I planted the paniculata the hydrangea particular to thinking that the deer would likely get it I planted the oak leaf thinking all they won't come up this close to the house.

And yep, female tracks in the snow and they've come once they find that salad bar they're just oh yeah, I've actually they've come as close as my kitchen window.

i Yeah, I've seen that like they found the bird feeder and you Yeah, they're just like, get the word out.

Great.

Awesome.

Okay.

All right, Chuck, we are to you.

Okay.

Well, I I brought in my seed savers exchange winner yearbook, which is just this is not a catalog, right?

Explain the difference between the yearbook and the catalog.

The yearbook is where all the people who are listing things, people are saving different things, list them.

And then for the price of postage, or whatever, which, when they started, that wasn't much and now that's quite a bit.

But you can go through there, and there's 1000s and 1000s, and 1000s of things.

I think, several years ago, they got to the point where they, they couldn't put any more in it, because this is as big as you can make.

Oh, wow, a perfect bound thing.

Today, if you're digital, it's online.

If you're an old analog lead, like me, who told you right, I was a lifetime subscriber, back when they needed the money, and and so I've just hung on to that.

And we're really squeezing all the good out of that little bit that I gave him at that time.

Now, it's like $1,000, or something, but wasn't at that point.

So anyway, I get that.

Can I ask a question about this?

Sure.

So if you are like, let's say, the Broomcorn that you grow?

Do you list?

Or do you list that?

I haven't in a while it?

They're both right, in the black?

have been in here?

And I would assume probably still are?

Somehow one got listed as the, they aren't listed the same?

Which which is kind of perplexing.

But but they're both, they're both still in there.

Second question.

Is everything in there?

Does it have to be native or native plants?

Are they are they all native plants?

Or does it matter?

Native?

There?

No, there, there's a combination of heirloom varieties of, of mostly edible things.

Gotcha.

Okay.

And also some old commercial, open pollinated varieties that are no longer listed anywhere.

Gotcha.

So the only way they get saved as if somebody does it.

So So that's been when, when I first was introduced to him back in 8219 82, ancient history, I was, I worked kind of crazy.

And I ended up with 150 potato varieties, because I was really potatoes.

And I managed to maintain those for quite a while.

And then originally, they thought that if if they if they commerce in these, that somehow that would diminish them.

But what they did was they awakened all this demand.

And so every other seed company in the in the country was benefiting from their emphasis on heirloom varieties.

And so finally, they got with the program, and now they put out a really fine catalog of some of their choices, materials.

And so they've actually done a better job of financing themselves, because they they have, but but they do keep them separate.

This is people exchanging things with other people of like mine, and this is just somebody who can go in and buy them, but that also keeps things alive because if there's a demand for them that's good.

And I just brought this one in because it's, it's kind of fun.

My friend Cara Lee Schneider in Indiana, took me to this honor Seed Company, it's south of Fort Wayne.

And they have it's like everything they have all kinds of things but they have sure they and I'm not necessarily recommending them but it it's just quirky enough that that really has caught my fancy if you go there they have all the sea bag is lined up and you can go in and just pick out what you want.

And they they will do mail order but they don't do they don't do online.

So it's one of those you know what's allowed and what isn't.

I think just for practicality, they will use a calculator to add things up when you're they're very nice but it's really quite interesting and then you know they have all the greenhouse supplies and all that stuff as well but being a vegetable guy it was it was just kind of fun to just be able to go in there and and and pluck things that you bought well I bought Harvest Moon watermelons which is which is really the only only seedless watermelon that I've ever truly liked.

It's like it has the the yellow spots on a dark green background like like the moon and stars which is which is an heirloom that seed savers actually rediscovered that originally I thought that maybe no longer existed but certainly exists and is now in multiple forms.

What else did I buy?

Oh, I bought the sugar cube muskmelons Yes.

That does do well this year.

I always benefit when sure has a great harvest.

Yeah, you know, and then I bought just some spinach and some other other things just because they were there.

And you know, I can buy them here at the at the farm store.

But it was kind of fun to do that while I was over there.

It was and it was a fun drive through the country because my my friend, Cara Lee lives in Hartford City, which is kind of between Muncie and Fort Wayne.

So see, time is always a fun time of year, it is reminds you that warmer days are yes, given my growing physical limitations.

There's kind of a little bit of this with seed catalogs from Europe, because I, you know, my mind would would get me committed to a whole lot of things that I just can't keep up with anymore.

Like how many varieties varieties of potato was that you had?

150?

Yeah, no big deal, I guess.

Except, except, you know, the thing about potatoes is they're vegetatively propagated, and they, they don't last more than one year.

So you, you grow them this year, you have to grow the next year and ad infinitum.

They have done some some tissue culture work to clean up some of the viruses and things that build up in them over time, which is which has been good because then you start with nice clean material like certified seed versus something that somebody's been maintaining for 102 years.

They pick up things because all those little little leaf hoppers pop around and spread things so that seed catalogs are still are still wonderful.

That's, that's, you know, the first ones I got I remember memorizing everything in them.

And it's kind of kind of where I became a horticultural prodigy was reading seed catalogs.

So love that.

Speaking of seeds, Jen, you you were super pumped this came in she first thing she says when she comes in the door is did you hear about the new tomatoes.

And I had it.

So tell us all about these new tomatoes and you actually got some I didn't get the season I ordered them.

I ordered them I had seen this article pop up on NPR, I think that's the one you've got pulled up.

And it's actually a purple tomato.

And what makes it unique.

I've grown some supposedly purple tomatoes in the past and tomatoes usually can only make that pigment in the skin.

So the flesh would be more or less red.

This one's purple all the way through.

And it's it's novel for that reason.

But it's also novel because where they got that purple pigment is snapdragons.

So it's the first genetically modified vegetable to be sold to home gardeners and people didn't think there was a market to sell it to market those seeds to home gardeners that didn't think home gardeners would be on the like receptive to it.

They have shown that it has added nutritional benefit for the anthocyanins are antioxidants, so lots of benefits to things like our heart and blood pressure.

Now, when people hear genetically modified, I feel like we sort of been taught to freak out freak out.

Yeah.

So when you say that, you guys understand that it's not you know, something from a sci fi film.

But help us understand why in this instance, it's, it's not a bad thing.

From from what I understand from what I've read, is that they were able to show that number one tomatoes already make this pigment, they just don't make it in a high quantity.

So by moving the genes from Snapdragon in, they were able to have the whole fruit express the gene, not just the skin.

So it's not anything that we wouldn't already get from some tomatoes or other other produce.

And they showed that there's clear health benefit to it.

They had to clear all sorts of hurdles with the USDA and whatnot, from what I understand this was developed in the UK.

So they had a lot of hurdles to go through to and then I asked you Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

So if you save seeds from these because I know we sometimes if you save seed from a sunflower that you grew you're not gonna get the same color.

Well, this grow true.

It's supposed to what I the article I read this morning said that was also a unique unique point in their marketing.

This is they want gardeners to save the seed.

There are some catches like they don't want you selling what you're saving.

And they don't want you using it to breed start your own tomato breeding program.

But they want that spirit of gardening and community of sharing seeds with each other.

I don't, I don't foresee I don't know that it would end up in the exchange yearbook here.

But the idea that part of gardening is relating to our fellow man and sharing the wealth of our garden.

So you jumped on and got I did I did they're not they're not cheap.

They're it's $20 for 10 seeds but But if it if it's like they say that I can save seeds from it I can recoup that in seeds that's my initial investment I hopefully they taste good the last blue tomato or purple tomato I grew was kind of disappointing.

I think Chuck you've probably grown it it was developed just by natural breeding and selection and it was kind of not black fur from a taste standpoint it was not spectacularly tasty.

And it was interesting because only the sunny side right only Yeah, it only developed this is supposed to be the whole thing in it if I were to just see that without being cut open I would wouldn't looks like a great thing.

It doesn't even look like yeah, to me.

It doesn't have a pit but it looks like they look like poems.

Yeah.

Well hopefully those do well for you and you'll be able to bring some in yes cutline and always thinking about ways that's that's why we do this right there.

Reveal the big watermelon radish.

Yes, we got those that those are fun.

What are those?

I wasn't expecting that.

Okay, so in true, almost spring, late winter fashion.

You may remember last year Chuck was so kind to type us up a foolproof plan through guide.

Blanche.

Ever done word blame Chuck.

We asked Taylor to dig this out of the archives.

And Chuck is going to walk us through some of the things that we can get started and what to look forward to.

So take it away Chuck.

Well, the very earliest things that we're starting, we're kind of getting to the end of that window, you know, things that that can go out in chilly weather.

Any April or so here in Mid America.

But I think you could probably still get by with things like celery, celeriac, parsley, onions, shallots, from seed, leeks, and chives, if you're going to start a new a new pasture to those but it's with tribes, it's almost better to get a plant that you like and then divided and do it that way because they're more uniform that way.

But things that have small seeds, things that that the seeds germinate really slowly, like the like the celery and the celeriac you really need to get those going in January into mid February, to have any chance of getting them out in in, you know, mid to late April.

But it is fun, you know, if you if you're if you're in love with your seed catalogs, you might get the urge to grow an Elsa Craig Tanya and or Kelsey giant onion.

And the best way to do that is to buy a packet of seed and then start your own.

So, okay.

And then you start to go beyond that.

Some of the herbs rosemary and lavender germination there is a little bit slow and the little seedlings are not all that robust.

So you want to get those going.

And then things that come on quickly, you know, into into March there the whole brassica bunch, you know cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, kohlrabi, collards, kale, all of those things you want to get going in probably early March.

And then they're ready to go out because in some parts of Mid America, you might in a given year, and this might be one depending where it warms up and you can actually get things out in the garden in late March which it's good that these these comes very quickly in and if you started a lot sooner, they would get overgrown and they just do better if they get to that, that cute, you know, several leaf stage and then get them in the ground where they can take off and dodge rabbits.

Exactly.

I wanted to ask because you mentioned about it perhaps getting warmer this year.

Does that have anything to do with this kind of changing zones at all?

Should we expect anything from that?

Should we do anything different with regard to that?

Well the thing about zones is it's based on average winter low temperatures and average doesn't mean it's not going to plunge I don't think that means that we're not going to still not going to get a 20 below zero night which is is is a zone five thing where if theoretically we're in six A now that doesn't necessarily guarantee that that that we don't need to do those zone six plants somewhere that's in a kind of a microclimate.

Gotcha.

Maybe closer to the house or something like I don't think I'm ready to change my frost free dates or anything like no good advice because I know some people were wondering oh, that means we can get outside As, as we've seen, average means absolutely nothing.

So stick to what you know.

And if you want to experiment with something that's that's, that's been just slightly out of your reach for years, that's fine.

But be prepared to have it not be a total success, we're not going to take our $20 tomato seed right now and throw them out on a gamble.

Exactly, exactly like something sick.

And just because the temperatures, okay, doesn't mean that the ground is in any shape, we could have a ton of rain too, and it can be just too wet.

And there's a lot of factors besides temperature.

Okay, good to know, good to know.

And then we're getting down into April, which will save those for another show.

We don't want everyone to get too ahead of things.

Right.

So yes, that's, that's good.

And the point is, is, you know, just take into account how fast things develop, you know, like, like a basil plant developed so quickly that you don't want to start that too far ahead, because Basil is just so temperature sensitive.

So Rachel packets.

Okay, we did have one question come in on Facebook.

This is from Karen Hoyt shirts.

And she says, Is there a smaller maybe four to five feet, evergreen that grows in almost full shade, that would provide some contrast to the white pine that make up a lot of my yard, I'd love say something chartreuse or blue, but anything with color would be great.

And she understands that that would require more sense.

So any, any thoughts there?

The first thought I have is, generally speaking, the people who like blue foliage, bluish foliage, don't like chartreuse foliage.

So she's unique in that regard, and that she likes them both.

Boy, almost total shade kind of thing.

I wondered about maybe azalea Rhododendron.

There are some that are evergreen, and you would at least get some color in the spring.

Yeah, just just briefly, right.

And with the Pines, you would have that acidic soil that they like, right, but I don't know if it's enough light for all of them.

Yeah.

She's I mean, when would that hit the there's the there's the four to five feet.

Ask.

And then there's the color ask.

So it's kind of a tall order for a shady spot.

Yeah, you might be treated like doing some trade offs here.

Like maybe, maybe trade the color for something that can tolerate the shade.

But evergreens, I'm drawing a blank on.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Fair enough.

We've got about four minutes left.

And while we're talking about starting seed, I wanted to ask if you guys have any advice, or best practice for folks who are going to be getting their seed trays out and getting those started.

So we know the washed them out.

But what else what else is sets you up for success to not?

You know, well, if they're if they're reusing them, they really need to soak them in a dilute bleach solution solution for just 30 minutes or so.

Yeah, 10% bleach 10% bleach, give them a good soak.

All right.

And then as far as our planting material, I like core.

Do you guys recommend anything else or amendments to that, or I've used just the seed starting mix?

And I've seen some of instead of peat pots, the pots made from core that's becoming more popular.

Chuck, what do you do?

Generally, I just I just use one of the brand name potting mix to start things.

And that seems to work fairly well.

It I like it because it's got a little fertilizer in it where the seed starting mix will get them up but not not really makes us have fertilizer.

Now Yeah, but I think it's the same brand you're referring to.

Yeah.

And and I feel like I'm getting more for my money with, ya know, the other thing but yeah, and then some of the some of the finer seeds, where it's really important to have contact, I would go to the to a seed starting mix where it's it's very fine and nice.

I haven't gotten to the to the stage where I've demonized Pete as much as a lot of people seem to have.

So I kind of use what's on the shelf.

But But I can I can see where if you're concerned about non renewal Renewability and those kinds of things.

At garden riders, the peat people are there and they're making the case that they're that they're at least trying to be renewable to some extent.

So maybe, maybe it's it's not as bad as we think but I don't know that for sure.

Fertilize when you plant your seeds unless there's some in the mix.

But when do you want to fertilize or feed those seedlings when they come up is when I start worrying when they start to get true leaves and yeah and are able to utilize it before that it's just it would be too easy to burn the roots.

And cause problems.

What I do do when I plant is I make sure that my lights are on and if I'm going to start seed and make sure I have lights, no matter how good your window is you really really envy those those over counter LED.

Yes, I would have all I would have no food.

Oh yeah, I'm just seeing put the seat trays in but I get the lights on them as soon as I plant because you don't technically need them on until the seeds start to germinate.

But that always happens when you're not looking and it doesn't take long for them to have not enough light and get really leggy.

Oh yeah, they need you late.

Just in a heart.

Yes.

Alright, so get some good potting mix and get some lights.

All right.

Well, thank you guys.

We're out of time.

I appreciate you guys coming in.

And thank you so much for watching.

If you've got questions, you can send them into us at your garden@gmail.com or you can send them on Facebook.

Just search for Mid American gardener and we will see you next time.

Good night.