>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

ISRAELI FORCES OPEN FIRE IN GAZA AS HUNGRY PALESTINIANS RUSH TOWARDS RARE AID TRUCKS, AND A DEADLY STAMPEDE ENSUES.

I SPEAK TO MARK REGEV, SENIOR ADVISER TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER.

AND I GET AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE FROM A STORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL.

>>> THEN "BURN BOOK."

LONG TIME TECH JOURNALIST KARA SWISHER TALKS ABOUT LIFTING THEVALE ON SILICON VALLEY IN HER NEW MEMOIR, MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO MARIE ARANA ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE LATINO VOTE IN THIS YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, WHICH IS UNPACKED IN HER NEW BOOK "LATINOLAND."

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

LIFE IS DRAINING OUT OF GAZA AT A TERRIFYING SPEED, THE WORDS OF U.N. HUMANITARIAN CHIEF MARTIN GRIFFITHS, AS MORE THAN 100 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED WHILST GATHERED AROUND FOOD AID TRUCKS IN GAZA CITY, ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH THERE.

THE IDF RELEASED THESE DRONE PICTURES EARLIER.

AND DESPITE DISPUTED TIMELINES, ISRAELI FORCES SAY THEY DID OPEN FIRE.

A LOCAL JOURNALIST WHO WITNESSED THE INCIDENT TOLD CNN THAT THE ISRAELI FIRE PROMPTED A DEADLY STAMPEDE, WHICH LEFT HUNDREDS OF OTHERS INJURED, AS AID TRUCKS AND PEOPLE TRIED TO LEAVE THE SCENE.

AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL CONFIRMS, AS I SAID, THAT THE IDF DID USE LIVE FIRE, BUT SAID THAT THE CROWD, QUOTE, POSED A THREAT TO TROOPS.

THIS COMES IN THE CONTEXT OF A DIRE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN GAZA WHERE THE U.N. SAYS OVER HALF A MILLION PEOPLE ARE, QUOTE, ONE STEP AWAY FROM FAMINE.

TAKE A LISTEN TO SOMEONE WAITING FOR AID EARLIER.

>> Translator: I AM NOT ASHAMED TO SAY IT.

IT HAS BECOME NORMAL BECAUSE WE HAVE REACHED THE AGE OF FAMINE.

TENS OF HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN HAVE BECOME MARTYRS BECAUSE OF FAMINE.

WE HAVE ALL REACHED THE STAGE THAT WE'RE NOT ASHAMED TO GO AND GET A BAG OF FLOUR.

>> JOINING ME NOW IS MARK REGEV.

HE IS SPECIAL ADVISER TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, MARK REGEV.

AS I SAID THERE, DISPUTED TIMELINES.

EITHER THE SHOOTING WAS FIRST AND THEN THE STAMPEDE, OR THE STAMPEDE WAS FIRST AND THEN THE SHOOTING, BUT THE FACTS ARE THE FACTS.

THERE ARE DEAD AND INJURED.

I THINK THE FIRST QUESTION, IF YOU COULD ANSWER IS WHO WERE THESE AID -- WHO WAS THIS AID BEING DRIVEN IN BY OR FOR?

THE U.N. AND THE NORMAL KNOWN AID AGENCY SAID THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

DO YOU KNOW WHO IT WAS?

>> I KNOW THE FOLLOWING.

THAT IN ORDER TO HELP ALLEVIATE THE FOOD SHORTAGE IN GAZA, THAT WE AUTHORIZED A CONVOY I THINK OF SOME 30 TRUCKS INTO GAZA LAST NIGHT HEADED FOR THE NORTHERN GAZA STRIP.

AND THIS SHOWS THAT ISRAEL IS INTERESTED IN SEEING AID AND FOODSTUFFS REACH THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE SAW A SITUATION WHERE THERE WAS A MASS CASUALTY TRAGEDY WHERE IT LOOKED LIKE CIVILIANS WERE STORMING THE TRUCKS, TRYING TO TAKE THE FOOD OUT OF DESPERATION, AND PEOPLE -- A CROWD WAS PUSHING AND SHOVING AND PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

I CAN'T TELL YOU THE EXACT NUMBERS.

AS YOU KNOW, I DON'T TRUST THE NUMBERS PUT OUT BY THE HAMAS MINISTRY OF HEALTH IN GAZA.

THERE WERE REPORTS THAT MAYBE THEIR DRIVERS WERE DRIVING OVER PARTS OF THE CROWD.

IT APPEARS TO BE A TRAGEDY.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU, ISRAEL WAS NOT INVOLVED DIRECTLY IN ANY WAY.

>> WHEN YOU SAY "NOT INVOLVED DIRECTLY IN ANY WAY," WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

YOU ENABLED THIS CONVOY, AS YOU SAID, AND YOUR FORCES ARE THERE ON THE GROUND AND OPENED FIRE.

THEY SAID IT THEMSELVES.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN NOT INVOLVED IN ANY WAY?

>> SO THIS WAS WHERE WE ALLOWED THE AID TO COME IN.

WE'RE INVOLVED THAT WAY.

THAT'S OUR POLICY.

TO ALLOW FOOD TO GO INTO GAZA FOR THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

BUT IN THE INCIDENT OF PEOPLE STORMING THE TRUCKS AND THE WAY THE TRUCK DRIVERS BEHAVED AND PEOPLE GETTING SQUASHED AND PRESS AND APPARENTLY THERE BEING MASH CASUALTIES, ISRAEL WAS NOT THERE ON THE GROUND.

>> OKAY.

BURY THEY DID OPEN FIRE, AND PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

SO I'M COMPLETELY CONFUSED BY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BECAUSE THEY ADMITTED.

THE IDF SPOKESMAN SAID IT.

SAID IT ON OUR AIR.

THAT THEY OPENED FIRE.

>> THAT'S -- THAT'S A SEPARATE INCIDENT.

>> OKAY.

>> NOT CONNECTED TO THE TRAGEDY WITH THE TRUCKS.

>> UH-HUH.

>> AND THAT WAS -- THAT WAS DIFFERENT PLACE, DIFFERENT TIME IN THE GENERAL LOCATION.

BUT NOT THE SAME INCIDENT AT ALL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WE ARE NOT AWARE THAT THE IDF FIRED CAUSED CASUALTIES AT ALL.

>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU THAT A JOURNALIST WHO CNN WORKS WITH ON THE GROUND HAS A DIFFERENT VIEW OF IT.

BUT MAYBE THERE WERE OTHER INCIDENTS.

THAT OBVIOUSLY YOU SAY IS UNDER REVIEW AND WE WILL HOPE TO GET CLARIFICATION.

HERE'S THE THING.

ISRAEL IS THE ONLY FORCE IN CHARGE OF SECURITY BY YOUR OWN ANNOUNCEMENTS, BY YOUR OWN VOLITION, BY YOUR OWN ACTIONS OVER THE LAST FIVE MONTHS SORE THERE.

IT IS, AS EVERYBODY IS SAYING, ISRAEL'S RESPONSIBILITY THEREFORE IF YOU LET THESE TRUCKS IN, TO PROVIDE SECURITY.

AND THIS OBVIOUSLY COMES IN THE CONTEXT OF SO LITTLE FOOD GOING IN THAT PEOPLE ARE DESPERATE, AS WE'VE HEARD FROM THE INTERNATIONAL FORCES.

SO FIRST, AREN'T YOU THE ONLY LAW ENFORCEMENT PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP RIGHT NOW?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, HAMAS HAS NOT YET BEEN COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

AND I SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLEARER.

IN THE FIRST INCIDENT OF THE TRUCK BEING SWAMPED BY CIVILIANS, THERE WAS GUNFIRE, BUT IT WASN'T ISRAELI FORCES.

THERE WEREN'T ISRAELI FORCE ON THE TRUCKS OR AROUND THE TRUCKS.

THAT WAS PALESTINIAN ARMED GROUPS.

WE DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS HAMAS OR OTHER ARMED GROUPS.

BUT THERE DEFINITELY WAS FIRE.

THAT WE DO KNOW.

>> OKAY.

SO MY QUESTION, AGAIN, ISRAEL IS THE ONLY LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION ON THE GROUND, AS YOU WAGE THIS WAR.

THEREFORE, IF YOU ALLOW THESE TRUCKS IN, WHO DO YOU EXPECT TO PROVIDE THE SECURITY FOR THEM?

BECAUSE EVERY CONVOY NEEDS SECURITY.

I'VE COVERED THIS FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL BACK FROM BOSNIA TO SOMALIA AND ELSEWHERE.

IT ALL REQUIRES DISCIPLINE, ORGANIZATION, AND COORDINATION AND SECURITY.

WHO DO YOU THINK SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR SECURITY IN THE CONVOY THAT YOU ALLOWED IN?

>> SO IT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION, AND WE'RE GRAPPLING WITH IT, AND WE'RE TALKING TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, TO THE AID ORGANIZATIONS, TO THE UNITED NATIONS, TO OTHER PARTNERS WHO ARE RELEVANT IN THIS CONVERSATION, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WE WANT TO SEE THE AID SAFELY REACH THE PEOPLE.

NOW IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE, AS YOU KNOW, HAMAS HAS BEEN STEALING AID.

THAT'S BEEN DOCUMENTED.

WE'VE HEARD PEOPLE IN GAZA COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS.

SO IS IT POSSIBLE THAT PEOPLE IN GAZA DON'T TRUST THAT THIS AID THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS GIVING TO THE PEOPLE OF GAZA IS ACTUALLY REACHING THE PEOPLE OF GAZA AND NOT BEING SIPHONED OFF BY THE TERRORISTS?

THAT COULD BE ONE OF THE REASONS TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS GOING ON.

>> MARK REGEV, I UNDERSTAND THAT IS WHAT YOU'RE TELLING US.

BUT THE CONTEXT, AGAIN, IS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DISMANTLE ALL HAMAS INFRASTRUCTURE OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS, INCLUDING THE POLICE.

THEY HAVE BEEN BOMBED INTO INACTION AND THEREFORE THEY SAY AND THE U.S. AND OTHERS ARE SAYING THAT THIS IS CAUSING CHAOS, ANARCHY AND A COMPLETE BREAKDOWN OF CIVIL ORDER.

SO THEY'RE NOT THERE TO HELP WITH ANY SECURITY SHOULD THEY BE SO INCLINED.

AND SECONDLY, AND THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT, YOU, ISRAEL, ACCORDING TO ALL THE U.N. AND THE NGOs LIKE THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL ARE PREVENTING TIMELY AND SUFFICIENT AID FROM GETTING IN WHICH IS CAUSING FAMINE, STARVATION, HUNGER, DESPERATION, AND PRESUMABLY CAN ALSO LEAD TO THIS KIND OF CHAOS AROUND A RARE AID TRUCK.

SO WHY ARE YOU PREVENTING THE TIMELY INSERTION OF AID INTO GAZA FOR THE HUMANITARIAN POPULATION?

AND LET'S JUST SAY, THE U.N. SAYS IT'S HALVED SINCE -- IN THE LAST MONTH.

>> SO FIRST OF ALL, AID IS GOING IN.

AND THIS, AS WE SAID, AID WENT IN LAST NIGHT.

I THINK THE PROBLEM WE'RE GRAPPLE WITH, AND I'D LIKE TO TELL YOU THERE IS AN EASY ANSWER, AID IS GOING IN.

THE TROUBLE IS THE INTERNAL DISTRIBUTION INSIDE GAZA.

AND THERE THERE ARE SECURITY CHALLENGES THAT WE'VE GOT GRAPPLE WITH MORE EFFECTIVELY, AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE A RECURRENCE OF TODAY'S TERRIBLE EVENTS.

SO WE HAVE TO TALK TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND THOSE PROVIDING THE AID HOW WE CAN SAFEGUARD AID.

NOW WE DO KNOW THAT THERE WAS PALESTINIAN FIRE IN TODAY'S TRAGIC INCIDENT.

SO SOMEONE ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE WAS THERE WITH WEAPONS.

>> OKAY.

THAT'S YOUR VIEW.

NOBODY ELSE HAS ACTUALLY SAID THAT.

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE IT UNDER REVIEW AND OTHERS WILL PROBABLY BE AS WELL.

BUT LET ME PLAY FOR YOU THEN JAN ECKELAND, THE HEAD OF THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL THAT SAYS TRUCKS ARE STILL LINED UP AT BORDERS.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH ENTRANCE POINTS FROM THE ISRAELI GAZA SIDE, AND THAT SO MUCH MINUTE CHECKING IS HAPPENING AS TO MAKE THESE ENTRANCES REALLY RARE.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO ME.

AND HE SAID IT'S UP TO ISRAEL, PLUS AMERICA AND TO AN EXTENT EGYPT TO FIX THIS SITUATION.

>> THERE IS VERY LITTLE AID.

THERE IS VERY LITTLE SUPPLIES THAT START WITH SO -- BREAKING OUT THERE.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT WHICH AGAIN SHOWS THE CROSSING ALSO FROM ISRAEL, ISRAEL COULD FIX THIS.

THEY ARE THE OCCUPYING POWER.

THEY HAVE THE OVERWHELMING MILITARY SUPERIORITY.

THEY COULD CONVOYS GOING OVER CARNEY CROSSING WHICH IS IN THE MIDDLE AREA FROM WHERE YOU CAN EASILY REACH THE NORTH.

IT'S VERY HARD FROM HERE SOUTH IN RAFAH AND KEREM SHALOM.

>> SO MARK, ABC NEWS REPORTS THAT YOU ARE CONSIDERING OPENING THE CARNEY CROSSING, AND LAST MONTH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS SAID TO HAVE ASKED YOU TO OPEN THE EREZ CROSSING.

IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> SO I CAN'T ANSWER ANYTHING BEFORE IT'S DECIDED, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THOSE REPORTS ARE CORRECT IN THAT ISRAEL WANTS TO WORK WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO MAKE SURE THE AID GETS IN.

AND I REPEAT WHAT YOU'VE HEARD ME SAY BEFORE.

THE PEOPLE OF GAZA, WE DON'T WANT TO HARM THEM.

WE WANT TO SEE THEM SEE THE AID THAT THEY REQUIRE.

AND THERE ARE LOGISTIC ISSUES.

THERE ARE PROBLEMS ON THE GROUND.

I THINK, OF COURSE WE'VE GOT FOCUS ON GETTING THE AID INTO GAZA.

BUT AS TODAY'S INCIDENT SHOWS, WE HAVE TO WORK TO MAKE SURE THAT AID IS EFFECTIVELY DISTRIBUTED.

THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVE AID COME INTO GAZA AND IT'S JUST GOING TO CAUSE PROBLEMS.

SO WE HAVE TO DO BOTH THOSE AND WE AS A GOVERNMENT HAVEN'T BEEN DOING SO.

>> SO JAN EGGLAND SAYS WHEN THEY TAKE THEIR TRUCKS, THANKFULLY THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ROUTED THAT I HAVE A SYSTEM.

THEY HAVE A DELIVERY ROUTE.

THEY HAVE A DISTRIBUTION ROUTE AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

HE ALSO SAID THEY CANNOT MOVE UP NORTH, THAT ISRAELI CHECKPOINTS HAVE PREVENTED THEM FROM MOVING UP NORTH WHERE THE MOST DIRE SITUATION.

WE AT CNN HAVE ALSO CONDUCTED AN INVESTIGATION WITH ALL THE GEO LOCATIONS AND EVERYTHING ELSE WHICH SHOW THAT ISRAEL FIRED ON AN AID CONVOY FEBRUARY 5th.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF INSECURITY THAT MOST SAY ARE COMING FROM YOU.

HE ALSO SAID THAT HAMAS HAS THEIR FOOD.

THAT'S IN THE TUNNELS.

THAT'S WITH THEM.

IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CIVILIANS.

SO THIS IS ABOUT CIVILIANS TRYING TO RECEIVE AID.

SO THESE ARE FACTS.

AND WHEN YOU SAY YOU WANT TO TAKE MORE AID IN, I MEAN, SEEING IS BELIEVING.

HOW IS -- HOW ARE THE PEOPLE, HOW IS ANYBODY MEANT TO BELIEVE THAT YOU WANT IT IF IT'S NOT GOING IN?

>> SO IT IS GOING IN, AND MORE WILL BE GOING IN.

THAT'S OUR COMMITMENT.

YOU THINK WE HAVE AN INTEREST IN STARVATION IN THE GAZA STRIP?

OF COURSE WE DON'T.

>> OKAY.

I DON'T KNOW.

I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

>> NO, NO, NO, I THINK WE ARE SCREENING TRUCKS.

WE ARE SENDING TRUCKS IN.

THE BACKLOG IS OFTEN ON THE GAZA SIDE OF THE FRONTIER BECAUSE OF ALL SORTS OF LOGISTIC ISSUES.

BUT TO SAY THAT THE U.N. AID GOING INTO GAZA, THAT HAMAS IS NOT STEALING IT, THAT'S JUST SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

THE PEOPLE OF GAZA, THEY SAY THAT THE HAMAS IS STILLING THE AID.

THE OTHER PEOPLE IN GAZA UNFORTUNATELY WITH GUNS, THEY CAN TAKE WHAT THEY WANT.

AND THAT'S AN UNFORTUNATE REALITY.

>> SO THE QUESTION IS THEN, HAVE YOU DISARMED HAMAS OR NOT?

I MEAN, THIS IS FIVE MONTHS.

HAVE YOU -- ARE YOU CLOSE TO DESTROYING THEM AND PREVENTING THIS?

THIS IS YOUR WHOLE RAISON D'ETRE, AND CIVILIANS ARE PAYING.

HAVE YOU -- HOW MUCH HAVE YOU DESTROYED THEM?

>> SO HAMAS HAS 24 BATTALIONS.

WE HAVE TAKEN APART 18, AND WE'RE WELL ON THE WAY TO FINISHING THE JOB.

OBVIOUSLY WE CAN DISCUSS SIMPLY.

THERE ARE HAMAS BATTALIONS IN RAFAH THAT ARE STILL INTACT, AND WE'LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.

BUT HAMAS' MILITARY MACHINE IS AN ORGANIZED FIGHTING FORCE IS BEING CRIPPLED.

WHAT YOU DO HAVE UNFORTUNATELY IS YOU CAN HAVE LONE GUNMEN OR SMALL SQUADS OF PEOPLE WHO CAN STEAL AID, CAUSE PROBLEMS, CAN EVEN SHOOT A ROCKET HERE AND THERE, SHOOT AT OR OUR FORCES.

BUT WE ARE WINNING THE WAR.

IT'S A E ONLY A MATTER OF TIME.

A BIT OF PATIENCE, IT WILL BE OVER.

>> A BIT OF PATIENCE AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND YOUR BIGGEST BACKERS, THE U.S. ARE ARGUING NO GROUND INTERFERENCE IN RAFAH.

HAVE YOU MADE A DECISION?

HAS THE GOVERNMENT MADE A DECISION TO GO INTO RAFAH, AND IF SO, WHEN?

AND ADDED TO THAT, DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A CEASEFIRE THAT HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE CEASEFIRE IS DEPENDENT ON A DEAL WITH THE HOSTAGES.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, I'D LIKE TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

WE'RE READY FOR A DEAL TO BRING OUR HOSTAGES HOME.

WE WANT TO SEE OUR HOSTAGES COME HOME.

WE'RE WILLING TO PAY A PRICE, EVEN A PRICE THAT IS DIFFICULT FOR ISRAEL, THAT IS PAINFUL FOR ISRAEL.

BUT TO GET OUR HOSTAGES HOME, WE'RE WILLING TO DO THAT.

BUT HAMAS TO BE, YOU KNOW, PART OF A SERIOUS NEGOTIATION.

AND UNFORTUNATELY SO FAR IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT THEY ARE.

AND I'D LIKE TO TELL YOU I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT WE CAN GET SUCH A DEAL, WHICH WILL BRING A CEASEFIRE.

UNFORTUNATELY, I HAVE TO BE DOUBTFUL TODAY.

IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT HAMAS WANTS A DEAL.

IF THEY'RE SERIOUS, LIKE IN NOVEMBER, WE CAN GET A DEAL.

BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME AT ALL TODAY THAT HAMAS IS SERIOUS.

>> AND RAFAH, WHEN WILL WE SEE THAT?

>> SO HERE I THINK WITH RESPECT I THINK YOU MAYBE SIMPLIFIED THE AMERICAN POSITION.

THE AMERICAN POSITION, WHICH IS ACTUALLY I THINK IN MANY WAYS IDENTICAL TO THE ISRAELI POSITION IS THAT WE CAN GO INTO RAFAH.

WE NEED TO GO INTO RAFAH BECAUSE THERE ARE THOSE HAMAS BATTALIONS THERE, AND YOU'VE GOT FINISH THE JOB.

BUT WE SAID WE WILL CREATE A HUMANITARIAN CORRIDOR, AND WE'LL FIND A SAFE PLACE FOR THE PEOPLE IN GAZA THERE.

WE DON'T WANT TO SEE CIVILIANS CAUGHT UP IN THE CROSSFIRE BETWEEN US AND HAMAS, NOT IN RAFAH, NOT IN ANY PART OF GAZA.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WELL, CLEARLY, OBVIOUSLY, I ASSUME THAT WHAT HAPPENED TODAY WILL BE A LEARNING MOMENT FOR TRYING TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT ON A MUCH, MUCH BIGGER SCALE, IF YOU SAY YOU HAVE A PLAN.

MARK REGEV, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

>>> AND LATER ON, WE'LL GET SOME PERSPECTIVE ON THIS INCIDENT FROM THE U.S. WITH JOSH PAUL, WHO IS FORMERLY OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

NOW YOU'LL REMEMBER HE RESIGNED IN OCTOBER OVER THE AMERICAN CONTINUED LETHAL ASSISTANCE TO ISRAEL.

>>> NOW, THOUGH, TURNING TO ONE OF THE THORNIEST ISSUES OF OUR TIME, THOU MANAGE SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE ROLE IT PLAYS PRECISELY IN CONFLICTS LIKE THIS.

SO MANY AND SO MUCH POWER RESIDES IN THE HANDS OF SILICON VALLEY BILLIONAIRES, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE PECULIARITIES AND TALENTS OF THIS LAYER OF TECH ENTREPRENEURS BETTER THAN KARA SWISHER, WHO HAS COVERED THE INDUSTRY FOR DECADES AND CALLS THEM OUT BY NAME.

NOW SHE IS CHRONICLING HER CAREER AND THOSE SHE HAS COVERED IN A NEW MEMOIR "BURN BOOK."

AND SHE IS JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. KARA SWISHER, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HI, CHRISTIANE.

HOW YOU DOING?

>> I'M GOOD.

WHAT IS "BURN BOOK"?

WHY IS BURN BOOK THIS WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

>> YOU HAVE NOT SEEN "MEAN GIRLS" I GUESS.

IT'S A BOOK THAT AMERICAN HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS HAVE WHERE THEY WRITE THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE, WHAT THEY REALLY THINK, AND THEY MIGHT ILLUSTRATE IT, THIS PERSON IS REALLY LIKE THIS.

AND IT'S LIKE A DIARY FOR A GROUP OF PEOPLE ABOUT PEOPLE AROUND THEM.

AND SO IT'S CALLED A BURN BOOK BECAUSE YOU BURN PEOPLE IN IT.

LIKE THAT PERSON'S REALLY FAKE OR THIS PERSON IS REALLY NOT THIS, OR THEY -- IT'S USUALLY ABOUT PHYSICAL STUFF, AND SOMETIMES IT'S ABOUT PERSONALITY OR RELATIONSHIPS.

SO IT'S A THING PEOPLE HAVE, AND IT'S BEEN IN A NUMBER OF MOVIES, INCLUDING "MEAN GIRLS."

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

HAVEN'T SEEN IT.

AND ARE YOU -- ARE YOU OUT TO BURN PEOPLE?

>> NO.

WELL, I DON'T KNOW.

BURN BOOKS ARE AWFUL TRUTHFUL, RIGHT?

THEY'RE THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT JUST ERRANT GOSSIP THAT YOU MAKE UP, IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE FACTUAL.

SO IT'S A JOKE.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A JOKE BECAUSE THE SUBHEAD IS A TECH LOVE STORY, BECAUSE I LOVE TECH, AS YOU KNOW.

>> YES.

>> FOR MANY YEARS WE'VE TALKED TO EACH OTHER.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THAT'S ENOUGH.

THIS IS WHAT I REALLY THINK OF THESE PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHAT I'M SAYING.

>> WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO THAT.

TELL ME ABOUT THE LOVE STORY.

FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, THIS IS YOUR MEMOIR ABOUT IT.

HOW DID IT FIRST START, THE LOVE AFFAIR WITH TECH AND THE INTERNET?

>> WELL, THE FIRST TIME I EVER DOWNLOADED A BOOK WAS AT DUKE UNIVERSITY SO MANY YEARS AGO IN THE 1990s.

AND I STARTED -- IN THE EARLY 1990s, AND I STARTED USING IT BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY USING IT BECAUSE I STARTED DATING SOMEONE WHO LIVED IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION.

AND WE STARTED USING TECHNOLOGY, FTP, I COULDN'T EVEN GO INTO IT.

BUT WHEN THE INTERNET REALLY STARTED WITH THE WORLD WIDE WEB, OH, WAY TO COMMUNICATE WORLDWIDE IN A NEW FRESH WAY.

WHEN I DOWNLOADED A BOOK ON TO MY COMPUTER, I THOUGHT WOW, YOU CAN DOWNLOAD ANYTHING.

SO IT WAS A REAL REVELATION THAT ANYTHING THAT COULD BE DIGITIZED WOULD BE DIGITIZED.

AND I WAS WORKING AT "THE WASHINGTON POST" AT THE TIME, AND I WAS WORRIED FOR ITS BUSINESS.

>> AND AGAIN, BACK TO THE ACTUAL PEOPLE AND THE SO-CALLED TECH GIANT.

SO EARLIER IN THE BOOK, YOU QUOTE THE FRENCH PHILOSOPHER PAUL WHO YOU SAID, QUOTE, WHEN YOU INVENT THE SHIP, YOU ALSO INVENT THE SHIPWRECK.

SO IN OTHER WORDS, EVERY NEW CREATION ALSO HAS ITS DESTRUCTIVE PROPERTIES AS WELL.

>> RIGHT.

>> YEAH.

SO WHEN DID YOU FIRST, YEAH?

>> IMMEDIATELY.

IMMEDIATELY.

I STARTED TO SEE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT, WHETHER IT WAS GOOGLE TAKING OVER TOO MUCH OF SEARCH.

I HAD COVERED THE MICROSOFT TRIALS HERE WHERE THEY WERE DOMINATING SOFTWARE, IF YOU REMEMBER.

THAT WAS AN ANTITRUST MONOPOLY CASE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BROUGHT AGAINST IT.

YOU COULD SEE THAT TECH COULD ENCROACH ON EVERYTHING.

TECH WAS EVERYWHERE.

IT WAS LIKE ELECTRICITY, RIGHT?

AND SO ONCE YOU SAW IT AND YOU COULDN'T LOOK AWAY, YOU COULD SEE OH, THEY COULD MOVE INTO CARS.

THEY COULD MOVE INTO HOLLYWOOD.

THEY COULD MOVE INTO MUSIC.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THOSE INDUSTRIES, INCLUDING MEDIA, ESPECIALLY MEDIA, DIDN'T SEE IT COMING.

AND I KIND OF DID.

WHEN I WAS AT "THE WASHINGTON POST," I GRABBED DON GRAHAM, WHO WAS THE PUBLISHER AT THE TIME AND I SAY CLASSIFIED ARE DOOMED BECAUSE OF CRAIGSLIST.

WE HAD THIS CLASSIFIED BUSINESS THAT WAS VERY LUCRATIVE, BUT IT WAS STATIC, IT WAS EXPENSIVE AND CUSTOMER SERVICE WAS TERRIBLE.

IT DIDN'T SELL THINGS, RIGHT?

IT DIDN'T WORK.

SO THIS WAS FREE CLASSIFIED.

WHEN NEWS STARTED TO BE FREE ALL OVER THE INTERNET, AND I THOUGHT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO SUBSCRIPTIONS IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE REALLY WANT?

YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE.

SAME THING WITH DISPLAY ADVERTISING, THAT IT STARTED TO GET TAKEN OVER BY TECH COMPANIES.

AND THAT WAS THE HEART AND SOLE OF THE REVENUES OF "THE WASHINGTON POST."

AND SO I JUST STARTED -- I KEPT TELLING HIM IT'S ABOUT TO FLOOD.

AND WE GOT TO GET ON THE HIGHER GROUND.

UNFORTUNATELY, A LOFT MEDIA COMPANIES DIDN'T.

>> AND ALSO, A LOT OF IT, I THINK IN YOUR EXPERIENCE KIND OF DEPENDS ON THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THIS.

IT'S NOT JUST TECH IN A VACUUM.

IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WIELDING IT.

AND IN 2007, YOU DID SOMETHING PRETTY INCREDIBLE.

YOU GOT A MAJOR EXCLUSIVE OF THE TWO BIG GIANTS OF THE TIME, STEVE JOBS AND BILL GATES.

WHAT DOES -- WHAT DID THEIR RELATIONSHIP AND THAT INTERVIEW TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE THIS INVENTION WAS HEADED?

>> WELL, IN A WEIRD WAY, THEY'RE FROM ANOTHER ERA.

THEY'RE FROM THE BEGINNING OF IT.

NOW IT'S DOMINATED BY THE ELON MUSK OR THE MARK ZUCKERBERGS WHO -- MICROSOFT IS STILL OF COURSE VERY ACTIVE RIGHT NOW WITH THE ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE.

AND IT'S A HUGE, ONE OF THE MOST VALUABLE COMPANIES IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

BUT INITIALLY THAT INTERVIEW WAS CLASSIC AS THEY WERE SORT OF -- I DON'T KNOW, HOW WOULD YOU PUT THEM?

THE THOMAS EDISON AND HENRY FORD?

ONE CREATED SOFTWARE IN EVERY POT, AND THE OTHER CREATED THESE BEAUTIFUL PRODUCTS THAT WE USE NOW.

THEY'RE UBIQUITOUS TO USE ALL THESE SERVICES.

SO WE WANT TOAD GET THEM TOGETHER, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T REALLY LIKE EACH OTHER.

THEY DID LATER WHEN STEVE WAS DYING.

BUT THEY MADE UP.

BUT THEY HAD BEEN INTERTWINED TOGETHER GROWING THIS MEDIUM OVER TIME AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS.

SO WE DID THAT INTERVIEW BECAUSE IT WAS WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE TO HAVE THOSE PEOPLE TALKING TO EACH OTHER, I THINK IT'S GOING TO GO DOWN IN HISTORY, THAT PARTICULAR ONE.

>> DO YOU THINK YOUR ENCOUNTERS WITH MARK ZUCKERBERG WILL AS WELL?

IN THAT INTERVIEW, IN 2010, HE WAS STILL IN HIS 20, AND HE WAS PRETTY AWKWARD ABOUT PUBLIC SPEAKING.

YOU DESCRIBE, QUOTE, RIVULETS OF MOISTURE ROLLING DOWN HIS EVER PALER FACE.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT DID THIS FACE-TO-FACE EXCHANGE SAY TO YOU WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT HIM NOW?

>> HE NEEDED TO CALM DOWN, I GUESS.

HAS THAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

SWEATING PROFUSELY?

>> NO, NOT TO ME.

>> THIS WAS UNCOMFORTABLE.

THIS WAS A PANIC ATTACK THAT HE WAS HAVING.

HE CLAIMED HE HAD THE FLU, BUT IT WAS A PANIC ATTACK.

WE ASKED ABOUT PRIVACY.

THIS WAS SOMETHING HE HADN'T COVERED BEFORE.

I MAKE HIM NERVOUS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT OUR WEIRD INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIP IS.

BUT I THINK THE MORE SIGNIFICANT INTERVIEW IS ONE I DID IN 2018 WHERE I CHALLENGED HIM ON MISINFORMATION.

ESPECIALLY ALEX JONES WHO HAD BEEN LYING ABOUT THESE KIDS THAT WERE MURDERED IN SANDY HOOK, AND WHY HE LET THEM -- WHY HE LET HIM RUN.

RAMPANT ON THE PLATFORM AND CAUSE SO MUCH DAMAGE.

AND HE SHIFTED TO THE DISCUSSION TO HOLOCAUST DENIERS AND SAID -- HE ESSENTIALLY SAID HOLOCAUST DENIERS DON'T MEAN TO LIE.

AND THAT WAS A MOMENT.

AND I LET HIM EXPLAIN.

I LET HIM SPOOL IT OUT, WHICH HE SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE.

AND I BASICALLY WANTED TO SHOW PEOPLE THIS IS THE GUY IN CHARGE OF THIS TOXIC RIVER OF ANTISEMITISM.

AND I'LL TELL YOU WHERE IT'S GOING.

IT'S GOING TO A BAD PLACE.

THIS SUPERCHARGE IS ALREADY EXISTING ANTISEMITIC FEELINGS ACROSS THE GLOBE.

THIS IS A VERSION THAT SCALES IT BEYOND BELIEF.

I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE I WANTED PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS GUY WAS NOT INEPT, BUT UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THESE BIG ISSUES.

BUT HE WAS MAKING THE DECISIONS.

IT TOOK HIM TWO YEARS TO THROW THESE PEOPLE OFF OF FACEBOOK, TWO YEARS.

AND IN THAT TIME, SO MUCH TOXIC WASTE FLOWED INTO THE DIGITAL VEINS OF THE WORLD.

I'M NOT SURPRISED BY THE ANTISEMITISM TODAY OR, YOU KNOW, THE COVID.

YOU COULD APPLY IT TO ANYTHING.

ELECTION DENIAL, COVID, VACCINE DENIAL, THINGS LIKE THAT.

GO AHEAD.

>> NO, NO, I WAS GOING TO SAY, IF YOU'RE NOT SURPRISED BY IT, DO YOU THINK THERE IS A BREAK MOMENT?

IS THERE SOME LEVER WE CAN PULL TO REVERSE IT?

>> NO.

>> THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION ON EVERYBODY'S MIND ABOUT REGULATING, ABOUT JUST TRYING TO MITIGATE THE WORST OF THIS HATE AND MISINFORMATION.

>> SURE.

>> AND LIES.

>> WELL, IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE HAD ANY RULES.

WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY.

THIS IS 30 YEARS IN.

I'M OLD THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY LEGISLATION.

AND THE LEGISLATION THAT EXISTS, WHICH IS IN THIS COUNTRY SECTION 230 HELPS THEM.

IT GIVES THEM BROAD IMMUNITY.

I'D LIKE TO -- THERE IS LAWS IN EUROPE.

EUROPE HAS PASSED THEM.

BUT IT'S GOT TO BE U.S. COMPANIES, U.S. REGULATORS THAT DO THIS, BECAUSE THESE ARE U.S. COMPANIES.

AND WE'RE ON THE DAWN OF YET ANOTHER MAJOR SHIFT IN COMPUTING, WHICH IS ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE.

GUESS WHO DOMINATES THAT?

ALL THE BIG COMPANIES.

THEY'RE MAKING ALL THE RULES.

WE STILL DON'T HAVE SAFEGUARDS IN PLACE, YOU KNOW, AND WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO -- ON THIS CASE, IT HAS TO BE ON A GLOBAL LEVEL BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, KILLER ROBOTS.

WHAT IF WE ASK IT TO SOLVE HUNGER AND IT KILLS A BILLION PEOPLE.

WE HAVE TO REALLY PUT IN SAFEGUARDS THAT WOULD BE THE LOGICAL THING TO DO IF YOU WANT TO SOLVE HUNGER IF YOU'RE A COMPUTER.

WE'VE GOT TO GET WITH PRIVACY REGULATIONS, SAFETY REGULATIONS AROUND THIS.

ANTITRUST REGULATIONS.

NONE OF THIS HAS PASSED, AND THEREFORE OUR ENTIRE WORLD IS BEING CONTROLLED BY PRIVATE CORPORATIONS THAT ACT LIKE NATION STATES AND ARE INEPT TO THE TASK.

NOT THAT GOVERNMENTS AREN'T INEPT, BUT THEY'RE ELECTED, RIGHT?

THEY'RE ELECTED.

>> KARA SWISHER WITH "BURN BOOK" AND BEYOND, YOU HAVE TO KEEP HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

YOU LAY OUT A VERY DISPOPIAN PRESENT AND FUTURE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> IMMIGRATION IS A TOP ISSUE IN THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AS BIDEN AND TRUMP HEAD TO THE MEXICO BORDER TODAY.

OUR NEXT GUEST MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES FROM PERU AT THE AGE OF 9 AND IS PART OF THE DIVERSE LATINO COMMUNITY WHO NUMBER NOW 64 MILLION PEOPLE ACROSS THE NATION.

IN HER NEW BOOK "LATINOLAND," AUTHOR MARIE ARANA SHEDS LIGHT ON THE LESSER KNOWN HISTORY OF HISPANIC AMERICA, AND SHE'S JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE IMPACT OF THIS VOTE IN THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

MARIE ARANA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WAS.

>> OH, IT'S SUCH A PLEASURE, MICHEL, THANK YOU.

>> SO THE TITLE OF YOUR LATEST BOOK IS "LATINOLAND."

YOU EMPHASIZE IN YOUR BOOK THROUGHOUT THAT LATINOS ARE NOT RECENT ADDITIONS TO THIS COUNTRY.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK IF YOU WOULD READ A LITTLE BIT FROM THE AUTHOR'S NOTE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK.

>> OKAY, ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS FROM THE PREFACE, REALLY, TO THE BOOK MY AUTHOR'S NOTE IN THE VERY BEGINNING.

AND IT READS, "WE WERE AMERICANS LONG BEFORE THE FOUNDERS DREAMED OF A UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

OUR ANCESTORS HAVE LIVED HERE FOR MORE THAN A HALF MILLENNIUM, LONGER THAN ANY IMMIGRANT TO THIS HEMISPHERE, AND STILL WE COME.

INDEED, ALTHOUGH WE ARRIVED LONG BEFORE THE PILGRIMS, AND WE ACCOUNT FOR MORE THAN HALF OF THE U.S. POPULATION GROWTHS OVER THE LAST DECADE AND ARE PROJECTED TO LEAD POPULATION GROWTHS FOR THE NEXT 35 YEARS, IT SEEMS AS IF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IS PERPETUALLY IN THE ACT OF DISCOVERING US.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, AS IF IT SEEMS THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IS PERPETUALLY IN THE ACT OF DISCOVERING US.

TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WE ARE VIRTUALLY MARGINAL, VIRTUALLY INVISIBLE.

WE'RE NOT IN THE HISTORY BOOKS.

NOBODY TEACHES THE FACT THAT WE HAVE FOUGHT IN EVERY WAR SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THIS COUNTRY.

WE FOUGHT IN THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR, FOUGHT IN THE CIVIL WAR, ALL THE WAY UP TO IRAQ.

THAT IS INVISIBLE.

IT'S INVISIBLE TO PEOPLE THAT WE REPRESENT.

THE 26% OF THE U.S. MARINE CORPS IS HISPANIC, IS LATINO.

WE HAVE FOUGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY A LONG TIME.

AND OF COURSE IF YOU ARE MEXICAN AMERICAN, YOU ARE PART CERTAINLY INDIGENOUS, WHICH IS TO SAY YOU HAVE INHABITED THIS TERRITORY FOR MILLENNIA, IN PRE-COLOMBIAN TIMES.

WHAT I MEAN IS PERPETUALLY IN THE ACT OF DISCOVERING US, I THINK THE IMAGE OF A PERSON JUMPING OVER A FENCE IS TO MANY PEOPLE WHAT A LATINO REPRESENTS.

AND IN FACT WE REPRESENT SO MUCH MORE, SO MUCH MORE HISTORY.

PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE, FOR INSTANCE, MICHEL, THAT THE FIRST NAVY ADMIRAL OF THIS COUNTRY DAVID FARRAGUT, HIS NAME WAS FARRAGUT, AND HE WAS HISPANIC.

HE WAS ABOUT THREE BLOCKS FROM THE U.S. WHITE HOUSE.

>> FARRAGUT SQUARE.

FARRAGUT SQUARE.

YEAH.

NOBODY GOES HEY, GREAT LATINO SITTING THERE ON THE PARK.

>> AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> BECAUSE WE ARE THE ETHNICITY THAT MOST INTERMARRIES IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE INTERMARRY ACROSS RACES AND ETHNICITIES ALL THE TIME.

IN FACT, I THINK HISTORY TELLS US THAT THE FIRST TIME THAT THERE WAS RACE MIXING IN AS MASSIVE A QUANTITY IN THE WORLD ON THIS PLANET WAS AMONG THE LATINOS OF THIS HEMISPHERE, ONCE THE SPANISH CAME AND INTERMARRIAGE BEGAN.

AND WE HAVE CONTINUED TO INTERMARRY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THERE IS THAT SENSE THAT WE LOSE OUR IDENTITY.

MY GRANDCHILDREN, FOR INSTANCE, ARE A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF LATINO BECAUSE THE MARRIAGES HAVE BEEN WITH OTHER RACES, OTHER ETHNICITIES.

AND YET THERE IS A VERY STRONG, VERY STRONG CULTURAL BOND BETWEEN LATINOS.

EVEN THOUGH WE MAY BE FROM DIFFERENT PARTS, MAYBE WE ARE CUBANS AND DON'T IDENTIFY WITH MEXICANS.

MAYBE WE ARE DOMINICANS AND DON'T IDENTIFY WITH PERUVIANS MUCH, BUT WE ARE STILL UNIFIED IN THE SENSE THAT WHEN WE COME TO THIS COUNTRY, THE LABEL ITSELF UNIFIES US, AND WE LEARN THAT THERE ARE MANY -- MANY CONNECTIONS BETWEEN US.

>> OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY OR WOULD BE IDENTIFIED AS LATINO, WOULD YOU SAY MEXICANS WOULD PROBABLY BE THE LARGEST GROUP, RIGHT?

>> MEXICANS ARE VERY DEFINITELY THE LARGEST GROUP.

THERE ARE SOME 37 MILLION, MORE THAN HALF.

>> THIS IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO YOU SAY PEOPLE HAVE OFTEN SAID HEY, WE DIDN'T CROSS THE BORDER.

THE BORDER CROSSED US.

SO THERE THERE'S A SPECKS OF THE STORY THAT YOU THINK ARE PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW?

>> WELL, HISTORY HAS MOVED POPULATIONS.

CERTAINLY LATINO POPULATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHEN I CAME AND IT WAS 1960 WHEN I CAME, THERE WERE ACCOUNTABLE TWO MILLION LATINOS IN THIS COUNTRY.

NOW THERE ARE 64 MILLION.

SO WHAT HAPPENED?

LET'S START WITH THE FACT THE SPANISH COLONIAL TERRITORY OF MEXICO WENT ALL THE WAY FROM CALIFORNIA TO KANSAS.

AND IT WENT ALL THE WAY FROM THE RIO GRANDE TO COLORADO.

SO THIS WAS A HUGE, MASSIVE SPACE THAT BASICALLY THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION IN THE WESTWARD HO MOVEMENT, THE MANIFEST DESTINY MOVEMENT SAID GO, TAKE YOUR FAMILY.

CARRY A STICK.

PUT THE STICK DOWN.

IT WILL BE YOUR LAND.

WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION OF THE FACT THAT THEY WERE POACHING, THAT THEY WERE INVADING.

THIS WAS AN INVASION AND INCURSION OF SORTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, FAMILIES WENT HAPPILY OFF AND CREATED FARMS AND RANCHES AND WHAT NOT.

AND PUSHING THE MEXICAN POPULATION OFF OF THEIR LAND.

AFTER THAT, WE HAD, OF COURSE, THE PUERTO RICANS BECAUSE AMERICA TOOK OVER PUERTO RICO IN THE MEXICAN WAR, IN THE WAR ALSO WITH CUBA.

THE ISLAND OF PUERTO RICO BECAME AN AMERICAN TERRITORY.

SO PUERTO RICANS CAME STREAMING INTO THE UNITED STATES IN THE SECOND LARGEST GROUP HERE.

OF COURSE, THE CUBANS CAME AFTER THE CASTRO REVOLUTION GOT RID OF THE VERY CORRUPT SYSTEM THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS SUPPORTING IN CUBA UNDER THE BATISTE REGIME.

SO THE CUBANS CAME IN THE 1960s AND BECAME LARGE GROUP.

SO ALL OF THESE SO-CALLED BLOWBACK OF AMERICAN POLICY IN THE UNITED STATES HAS CREATED THESE GROUPS, HAS CREATED THESE IMMIGRANT GROUPS IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT IS HISTORY THAT'S WORTH STUDYING.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO -- I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE NOMENCLATURE, BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU SPEND SOME TIME ON IN THE BOOK.

IS IT LATINO?

IS IT HISPANIC?

IS IT LATINX?

YOU SAY LABELS WE NEVER CHOSE FOR OURSELVES, HISPANIC, LATINO, LATINX HAVE BEEN ADOPTED AND REJECTED AGAIN WILLY-NILLY ONE AFTER THE NEXT, CAUSING GRAVE DOUBTS ABOUT THEIR VALUETY AND THE EXTENT OF OUR IDENTITY CRISIS, ALL IN AN EFFORT TO PORTRAY US AS A STRONG AND UNIFIED WHOLE.

SO SAY A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, THE NOMENCLATURE IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING.

WE ARE PERUVIANS.

WE ARE ECUADORANS, WE ARE ARGENTINES, WE ARE MEXICANS.

BUT WHEN WE COME TO THIS COUNTRY, AS I SAY, WE START TO BE CALLED THESE NAMES.

THE FIRST PERSON TO SAY THAT WE WERE LATINOS OR LATIN, AS WE WOULD HAVE SAID, IT WAS NAPOLEON.

HE HAD DESIGNS ON CONQUEST IN THE HEMISPHERE.

WHEN NAPOLEON INVADED SPAIN, TUDLY KNAPP'S HEART JUDGED BECAUSE SPAIN HAD THIS CONSIDERABLE COLONIAL POWER IN LATIN AMERICA WITH ALL KINDS OF EXTRACTIONS TO ENJOY.

AND SO NAPOLEON SAID OKAY, YOU ALL ARE LATINS.

YOU'RE LATINS LIKE US, LIKE THE FRENCH, LIKE ALL THE PLACES THAT I'M TRYING TO CONQUER ARE GOING TO BE LATIN.

SO WE BECAME LATIN AMERICA.

WE BECAME LATIN AMERICANS.

WE BECAME LATINOS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

THEN COMES THE 1970s WITH NIXON, AND NIXON TRIES TO -- NIXON HAS A VERY STRONG FEELING ABOUT LATINOS, OR HISPANICS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL THEM, BECAUSE HE GREW UP IN CALIFORNIA.

HIS FATHER WAS A GROCER.

HE WORKED WITH PEOPLE IN THE AGRICULTURAL FIELDS THAT WE WAS SELLING THEIR GOODS, AND THEY WERE ALL -- ALL THE AGRICULTURAL WORKERS OF COURSE WERE MEXICANS OR CENTRAL AMERICANS.

SO HE WANTED TO MAKE THAT SORT OF A STRONG ELECTORATE.

AND TO BE PART OF HIS SUPPORT POPULATION.

AND SO HE GAVE THEM A NAME, AND WE BECAME HISPANICS AT THAT POINT.

SO THE NAME STUCK TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.

BUT THEN CAME THE ACADEMICS, THE INTELLIGENTSIA, WHICH OKAY, WE HAVE TO BE MORE INCLUSIVE, MORE GENDER INCLUSIVE.

SO WE'RE GOING TO BE LATINX.

WELL, THAT WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE LANGUAGE BECAUSE TO CALL YOURSELF LATINOS IS A GRAMMATICAL POINT.

IT'S NOT A POINT ABOUT GENDER.

SO THAT ONLY STUCK TO THE EXTENT THAT 2% OF THE POPULATION OF LATINOS, ONLY 2% USE IT.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE REJECT IT.

SO WHERE ARE WE WITH THAT?

THE POINT IS MOST PEOPLE CALL THEMSELVES MEXICAN AMERICANS, CUBAN AMERICANS, DOMINICAN AMERICANS.

SO THE AGGREGATE TERM ISN'T NECESSARILY THE ONE THAT WE USE IN A UNIFIED SENSE.

>> THIS IS AN ELECTION YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SO THERE IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS THE LATINO VOTE GOING TO DO.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOU HAVE A LOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

THAT'S ONE OF THOSE MISCONCEPTIONS THAT YOU ARE POINTING UP IN YOUR BOOK AND IN YOUR OTHER WRITINGS WHICH IS THE IDEA THAT THERE IS A SINGULAR LATINO BLOCK IS JUST FALSE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WOULD YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> WE COME FROM VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.

THOSE WHO COME FROM COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN REALLY RACKED BY COMMUNISM TEND TO BE MORE CONSERVATIVE POLITICALLY, NATURALLY, THE CUBANS ARE VERY MUCH THAT WAY.

THE COUNTRIES WHERE THERE HAS BEEN LET'S SAY DICTATOR SHIPS THAT WORKED AND THAT ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING AND ACHIEVED SOMETHING, THEY TEND TO BE ALSO CONSERVATIVE.

SO WHEN YOU TRY TO ACTUALLY DEFINE WHERE WE ARE POLITICALLY, IT'S AN IMPOSSIBILITY.

BECAUSE IN TRUTH, THE WE DON'T TEND TO THINK IN THE BINARY.

I, LIKE MANY LATINOS WILL SWITCH SIDES AND HAVE SWITCHED SIDES MANY TIMES DEPENDING ON WHO IS RUNNING.

WE TEND TO BE INDEPENDENTS MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

BUT BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OF US WHO HAVEN'T STEPPED UP TO VOTE BECAUSE THERE IS SUCH A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF LATINOS WHO STAY HOME AND DON'T GO TO THE POLLS, THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO RECRUIT.

AND REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL IN RECENT YEARS IN RECRUITING THAT LOT OF PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE MORE AND MORE LATINOS, ESPECIALLY FROM CENTRAL AMERICA, FROM SALVADOR, NICARAGUA, GUATEMALA ARE BECOMING EVANGELICAL.

AND AS WE KNOW, THE EVANGELICAL CHURCHES ENCOURAGE YOU TO BE POLITICAL AND THEY ENCOURAGE YOU TO GO TO POLLS AND EXPRESS YOUR POLITICAL STRIPE.

SO THAT IS -- IT'S A VERY FLUID, VERY CHANGING POPULATION.

AND IT COULD GO ANY WAY IN ANY ELECTION.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS BEEN REALLY STRIKING IS THAT DESPITE THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S -- I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY REALLY OUTRAGEOUS AND DEMEANING REMARKS ABOUT MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS AT THE LAUNCH OF HIS 2016 CAMPAIGN ACCUSING THEM OF SAYING THEY'RE NOT SENDING THEIR BEST.

THEY'RE SENDING CRIMINALS, DRUG DEALERS, RAPISTS, I THINK WE ALL REMEMBER.

AND DESPITE HIS EFFORTS AT VARIOUS TIMES TO SHUT DOWN THE BORDER, DESPITE THESE DRACONIAN POLICIES SEPARATING CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENTS AT THE BORDER WHEN THEY CROSS WITHOUT PRIOR AUTHORIZATION, HE GOT ALMOST 30% OF THE LATINO VOTE IN 2016.

AND HE ACTUALLY DID BETTER IN 2020.

>> RIGHT.

>> I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE FIND THAT REALLY INTRIGUING.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THERE ARE VERY GOOD REASONS FOR THAT.

THERE ARE VERY GOOD REASONS FOR THAT.

THE KOCH BROTHERS, DAVID KOCH AND HIS BROTHER HAVE ACTUALLY CREATED A GROUP CALLED LIBRE.

AND LIBRE GOES AROUND THE COUNTRY AND RECRUIT MASSIVELY PEOPLE TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND WHY IS THAT?

WELL, LET ME GIVE YOU A COUPLE OF REASONS WHY.

FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE -- WE ARE LARGELY A PEOPLE OF FAITH, OKAY.

YOU CAN SAY OKAY, CATHOLIC FAITH, EVANGELICAL FAITH.

EVANGELICALS ARE GROWING MORE AND MORE BY THE MINUTE IN THE LATINO COMMUNITY, AS I JUST SAID.

SO WE ARE A PEOPLE OF FAITH.

AND ANY GROUP THAT WE'RE GOING VOTE FOR IS GOING TO -- IS GOING TO BE VERY UP-FRONT WITH THAT.

WE ARE LARGELY VERY DEVOTED TO FAMILY LIFE.

ANYTHING THAT APPEALS TO FAMILY, AND LIBRE DOES, LIBRE UNDERSTANDS THAT.

OF COURSE THE OTHER THING AND THE HIDDEN THING THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS THAT MANY LATINOS, THE MAJORITY OF LATINOS ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE IMMIGRATION SITUATION.

THEY REALLY WANT THAT FLOW TO STOP.

80% -- MORE THAN 80% OF LATINOS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE U.S. BORN.

WE ARE NOT FOREIGN BORN.

WE ARE MOSTLY U.S. BORN.

WE ALL PEEK -- MORE THAN 90% SPEAK ENGLISH.

WE ARE AFRAID AS MUCH AS ANYBODY IN THIS COUNTRY ABOUT THOSE WAVES OF IMMIGRATION THAT ARE COMING ACROSS THE BORDER.

MANY OF THE STRONGEST PEOPLE, ANTI-IMMIGRATION PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAME AS CHILDREN.

>> I THINK SORT OF THE PERCEPTION IS THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME SORT OF AFFINITY OR SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING ACROSS, SOME SENSE THAT, WELL, YOU KNOW, THEY MUST HAVE A GOOD REASON.

SO WHY IS IT THAT YOU SAY PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT IT?

BECAUSE THEY FEEL WHAT?

THAT THEY'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE THEIR OWN ECONOMIC STANDING OR BECAUSE THEY FEEL WHAT, JUST THE SENSE OF I WAITED MY TURN, WHY DON'T THEY WAIT THEIR TURN?

SAY MORE ABOUT WHY THAT IS.

>> WELL, IF YOU'RE GOING TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND FEELINGS ABOUT IMMIGRATION, YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE UNDOCUMENTED, OKAY.

THE UNDOCUMENTED HERE ARE AN EXTRAORDINARY GROUP OF PEOPLE.

I THINK PEOPLE ASSUME THAT THE UNDOCUMENT READY A BURDEN ON SOCIETY, AND IN FACT I THINK IT WAS THE CARNEGIE INSTITUTION THAT DID A SURVEY AND ESTABLISHED THAT THE UNDOCUMENTED POPULATION OF HISPANICS HAVE ZERO NET EFFECT ON GOVERNMENT BUDGETS.

ZERO NET EFFECT DRAIN ON GOVERNMENT BUDGET.

SO LET'S START WITH THAT.

>> THIS IS WHERE I HAVE TO JUMP IN.

MAYBE IN THE LONG-TERM, BUT CERTAINLY THAT CAN'T BE TRUE IN THE SHORT-TERM.

CERTAINLY IN THE SITUATION THAT WE'RE SEEING NOW.

YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE 300,000 PEOPLE CROSS THE BORDER IN A MONTH AND NOT HAVE IT HAVE SOME IMPACT ON LOCAL BUDGETS.

SO I TAKE YOUR POINT THAT IN THE LONG-TERM THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE.

>> IN THE LONG-TERM, YEAH.

IN THE LONG-TERM IT IS VERY DEFENDANT TRUE.

I THINK A PEW RESEARCH SURVEY THAT HAPPENED JUST NOT VERY LONG AGO.

IT MUST HAVE BEEN WITHIN THE LAST THREE YEARS ESTABLISHED THAT ONE OUT OF THREE UNDOCUMENTED HISPANICS OWNS THEIR HOME.

THINK ABOUT THAT.

NOW WE CAN TALK ABOUT, OKAY, THIS LAST GROUP OF THE 2023, 2024 AND MAYBE DIFFERENT, BUT WE HAVE TO -- WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THE SURVEYS TO SOME EXTENT.

>> LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL POINT.

WHEN YOU SAY PEOPLE ARE WORRIED IT, WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT?

ARE THEY WORRIED THIS NEW GROUP OF MIGRANTS WILL REFLECT POORLY ON THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE?

>> THAT'S PART OF IT.

>> OR THEIR OWN ECONOMIC FOOTHOLD IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH AND FIRM ENOUGH TO TOLERATE WHAT SEEMS LIKE A SHOCK?

WHAT IS IT THAT THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT?

HOW ARE PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THIS?

>> I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT'S VERY MUCH RELATED TO THE IMAGE OF THE HISPANIC.

I MEAN, NONE OF US WANTS US TO -- PEOPLE CRINGE WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS, RIGHT, THAT WE ARE SEEN TO BE A BURDEN WHEN WE ARE NOT, AND WE KNOW WE ARE NOT.

AND THE POPULATION, WHEN I GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF WHAT I SAID, BEING MARGINALIZED AND INVISIBLE BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE THE GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE POPULATION.

YOU ONLY SEE THE HEADLINES WHERE YOU SEE PEOPLE JUMPING THE FENCE OR COMING, STREAMING INTO THE FARMLANDS IN TEXAS OR ACROSS THE RIVER, AND YOU'RE MADE TO FEEL THAT THIS IS A STAIN ON THE REST OF US.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

>> MARIE ARANA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WAS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, MICHEL.

PLEASURE.

>> SUCH AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

>>> RETURNING NOW TO OUR TOP STORY TODAY, MORE THAN 100 PEOPLE DEAD IN GAZA, ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH MINISTRY THERE AFTER ISRAELI FORCES OPENED FIRE AS THEY WERE CROWDING AROUND A RARE AID CONVOY.

WE HEARD EARLIER FROM THE ADVISER TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU MARK REGEV.

NOW LET'S BRING IN FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL JOSH PAUL, WHO RESIGNED FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT SOON AFTER OCTOBER 7th IN PROTEST, AND HE IS JOINING US NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. JOSH PAUL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

LOOK, I FIRST WANT TO JUST SAY THAT THERE ARE TWO DISPUTED VERSIONS OF THIS.

NOW I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HEARD IT, BUT THE FACT IS THERE NEEDS TO BE -- WE'RE NOT ON THE GROUND.

JOURNALISTS ARE NOT ALLOWED IN, AND IT'S VERY HARD TO BE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH.

BUT WE KNOW SOMETHING AWFUL HAPPENED AND THAT ISRAELI FORCES WERE INVOLVED.

SO THE QUESTION TO YOU AS A STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL, HOW MUCH -- WHAT DOES THE U.S.

BELIEVE IS ISRAEL'S RESPONSIBILITY INSIDE GAZA NOW?

IS IT -- DOES THE STATE DEPARTMENT OR THE ADMINISTRATION BELIEVE LIKE WHAT COLIN POWELL SAID WAY BACK IN THE IRAQ WAR, THE POTTERY BARN RULE, YOU BREAK IT, YOU OWN IT?

>> YEAH, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR HAVING ME ON.

SO LOOK, I'M TALKING TO YOU TODAY ON A DAY WHERE THE OFFICIAL COUNT, WHICH OF COURSE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS PUBLICLY SAID IT BELIEVES IS AN UNDER COUNT OF DEATHS IN GAZA HAS CROSSED 30,000.

I THINK ISRAEL HAS AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF RESPONSIBILITY.

ISRAEL IS THE OCCUPYING POWER, BOTH IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK THAT IS THE CASE TODAY.

THAT WAS THE CASE PRIOR TO OCTOBER 7th.

AND AS THE OCCUPYING POWER, IT HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED THIS MORNING.

IT SEEMS CERTAINLY TO BE A TRAGEDY THAT WAS COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY WERE KILLED BY THE IDF MACHINE GUN FIRE VERSUS HOW MANY WERE RUN OVER OR TRAMPLED.

BUT LET'S BE CLEAR ON THE CONTEXT.

A U.N.

EXPERT SAID THIS WEEK THAT ISRAEL IS USING STARVATION AS A WEAPON OF WAR THAT IS A WAR CRIME.

WE'VE SEEN CHILDREN STARVE TO DEATH IN JUST THE PAST FEW DAYS.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE POPULATION OF GAZA IS INCREASINGLY DESPERATE.

WHEN YOU COMPOUND THAT WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND OF COURSE LINKED TO THAT THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION AND COLLAPSE OF SOCIETY AND THE SOCIAL CONTRACT IN NORTH GAZA, THE BREAKDOWN OF ORDER, AND AS YOU NOTED TO MARK REGEV, THE NOTION OF THE IDF PROVIDING HUMAN SECURITY IN THAT CONTEXT IN GAZA RIGHT NOW JUST AN ABSURDITY.

AND IT'S ALSO NOT WHAT THEY'RE TRAINED FOR.

EVEN SETTING ASIDE THE INHERENT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INTENTIONS OF THE NUMBER OF IDF SOLDIERS AS YOU'VE SEEN ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> JOSH, LET ME INTERRUPT YOU A SECOND.

YOU TALKED ABOUT DELIBERATE STARVATION.

SO YOU HEARD PRESUMABLY MARK REGEV SAY TO ME, YOU DON'T THINK WE'RE TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, HURT -- I THINK HE MAY HAVE SAID STARVE OR DENY THEM FOOD.

WE'RE TRYING TO GET MORE AID IN.

WHY DO YOU SAY DELIBERATE STARVATION?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE HEARD U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN EXPRESS HIS OWN FRUSTRATION THAT ISRAEL WAS PREVENTING THE PROVISION OF U.S.-FUNDED HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE OF FLOUR, WHICH I BELIEVE IS TODAY'S CONVOY REPRESENTS A SMALL PART OF.

WE KNOW COUNTRIES INCLUDING FRANCE, EGYPT, JORDAN, THE UAE AND QATAR HAVE HAD TO RESORT TO AIR DROPS TO PROVIDE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO GAZA.

REALLY, THE ANSWER I THINK HAS TO BE SEABORNE DELIVERY.

AND THIS IS A PROPOSAL THAT THE GENEVA INTERNATIONAL PEACE RESEARCH INSTITUTE HAS PUT FORWARD IN RECENT DAYS.

BUT OF COURSE ISRAEL HAS NOT ONLY WITHHELD FOOD, IT HAS ALSO STRUCK GAZA'S WATER PROCESSING PLANT.

IT HAS STRUCK GAZA'S ELECTRICITY INFRASTRUCTURE.

SO I THINK IT IS VERY CLEAR RIGHT NOW THAT THE OBSTACLE TO HERE, DESPITE A HANDFUL OF TRUCKS PASSING ONCE OR TWICE YOU KNOW AT THE VARIOUS CHECKPOINTS IS ISRAEL.

>> SO SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN CALLED THE DENIAL OF FOOD, YOU KNOW, A WAR CRIME ON THE SENATE FLOOR.

AND A SPOKESPERSON FOR THE NSC SAID THE WHITE HOUSE IS LOOKING INTO THIS LATEST VERY, QUOTE, SERIOUS INCIDENT IS HOW THEY CLAIM IT.

AND THEY SAY IT UNDERSCORES THE IMPORTANCE OF EXPANDING AND SUSTAINING THE FLOW OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE INTO GAZA, INCLUDING THROUGH A POTENTIAL TEMPORARY CEASEFIRE.

WE CONTINUE TO WORK DAY AND NIGHT TO ACHIEVE THAT OUTCOME.

SO HOW DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?

OPERATIONALLY, CLEARLY THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN DELIVERING AID IN THE WORST KINDS OF SITUATIONS, AND NOW APPARENTLY IS CONSIDERING AIR DROPPING AS WELL.

WE SAW IN BESIEGED SARAJEVAN ORGANIZED AIRLIFT, YOU KNOW, THAT AT LEAST PROPPED UP THE CIVILIAN POPULATION UNDER FIRE AND BESIEGED FOR FOUR YEARS.

THERE IS A WAR GOING ON.

HOW DO YOU SEE THE ABILITY TO ALSO TAKE CARE OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION, AT LEAST THEIR FOOD AND WATER NEEDS AND THEIR MEDICINE NEEDS, OR IS THAT ACTUALLY NOT POSSIBLE IN THE KIND OF COUNTEROFFENSIVE AND THE DESTRUCTION OF INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE SEE RIGHT NOW?

>> SO I THINK WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OVER TWO MILLION PEOPLE, THE NEED IS DIRE AND VAST AND WILL BE ENDURING.

IT'S GOING TAKE MANY, MANY YEARS, IF AT ALL, FRANKLY, FOR GAZA TO GET BACK ON ITS FEET.

AND SO THERE IS CERTAINLY A NEED FOR AN INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE HERE.

BUT AS YOU SAY, I DON'T KNOW HOW FEASIBLE THAT IS WHILE THE BOMBS CONTINUE TO DROP, IN THE ABSENCE OF A CEASEFIRE.

IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS WE'VE ALSO SEEN FOOD CONVOYS STRUCK BY, FOR EXAMPLE, IDF TANK SHELLS AND NAVAL BOMBARDMENT.

SO WE NEED TO SEE A RESUMPTION, A REAL CEASEFIRE.

AND I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO ASK AS PEOPLE SAY WELL, IS THIS REALLY THE TIME FOR CEASEFIRE?

A CEASEFIRE FROM WHAT?

CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT HERE.

IF IT WERE THE CASE THAT THE IDF, AS THEY ARE FULLY CAPABLE OF DOING WAS PRECISELY TARGETING HAMAS, YOU KNOW, SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIALS AS THEY HAVE SHOWN THEY'RE CAPABLE OF DOING IN LEBANON, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WOULD BE ONE THING.

BUT IN FACT WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AUSTIN TOLD CONGRESS TODAY, 25,000 WOMEN AND CHILDREN KILLED IN GAZA IN THE PAST FOUR MONTHS.

AND IN THAT CONTEXT, YOU KNOW, TO SAY, WELL, IF HAMAS JUST GAVE UP THE HOSTAGES AND SURRENDERED, THERE WOULD BE A CEASEFIRE I THINK IS A MISUNDERSTANDING ON WHAT A CEASEFIRE.

WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY SAYING, THOSE WHO SAY THAT AS WELL, IF HAMAS JUST GAVE UP THE HOSTAGES AND SURRENDERED ITSELF, WE WOULD STOP KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

AND THAT'S JUST AN ABSOLUTELY DEPRAVED POSITION TO TAKE.

>> WELL, I HAVE TO SAY, THE NUMBER 25,000 BY THE U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE IS VERY, VERY FOCUSING AND CONCENTRATING, AND -- >> IT IS.

>> ONE QUESTION.

I NEED TO ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION, THOUGH.

YOU RESIGNED IN PROTEST FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION OVER THEIR POLICY.

HAS ANYTHING CHANGED?

HAVE YOU SEEN ANYTHING CHANGING?

YOU KNOW, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS LIKE REALLY SAYING PRETTY MUCH NO IN PUBLIC TO EVERYTHING THE U.S. SAYS JUST ABOUT.

AGAIN, LEVERAGE ON WEAPONS AS A LOT OF QUESTIONING NOW AMONGST YOUNG AMERICANS, AMONGST THE VOTERS, NOT TO MENTION OVERSEAS ABOUT WHY DOESN'T THE U.S. USE ITS LEVERAGE, THE ONLY LEVERAGE IT REALLY HAS, WHICH IS CONTINUING TO SUPPLY THESE WEAPONS THAT ARE BEING USED CERTAINLY AT THIS TIME.

>>, NO THAT'S RIGHT.

AND SO IN THE CONTEXT OF THOSE 25,000 WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AUSTIN SAID HAD BEEN KILLED, HE ALSO NOTED IN THE SAME TESTIMONY THAT THE U.S. HAS PROVIDED SINCE OCTOBER 7th 21,000 PRECISION-GUIDED AMMUNITIONS TO ISRAEL.

SO IT'S CLEAR IMPACT THAT THE U.S. IS HAVING HERE, CLEAR COMPLICITY, AND A CLEAR LEVERAGE.

LOOK, I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE TWO THINGS.

IT HAS CHANGED ITS TONE, WHICH I THINK IS NICE BUT ULTIMATELY INEFFECTIVE.

AND IN RECENT DAYS, THERE HAS BEEN AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ON VIOLENCE, THERE HAS BEEN A NATIONAL SECURITY MEMORANDUM ON COMPLIANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW THERE HAS BEEN A U.N.

RESOLUTION THE U.S. HAS FLOATED SAYING THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES FOR ISRAEL TO GO INTO RAFAH.

NONE OF THAT IS THE SAME AS ACTION.

AND WHAT WE NEED HERE IS ACTION.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I DO THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS ESTABLISHING AT LEAST A FRAMEWORK FOR ESCALATION.

IT IS SIGNALING TO ISRAEL THAT IT HAS OPTIONS AVAILABLE.

WHETHER IT WILL USE THOSE OPTION I THINK WE NEED TO BE DEEPLY SKEPTICAL UNTIL IT HAPPENS.

>> ARE YOU HEARING FROM ANY OTHER MEMBERS OF YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES ABOUT CONCERNS, THE KIND OF CONCERNS THAT PROMPTED YOU TO LEAVE?

>> OH, YES, CONSTANTLY.

I WAS ACTUALLY IN THE NETHERLANDS THIS WEEK MEETING WITH DUTCH CIVIL SERVANTS WHO HAVE BEEN CONDUCTING DAILY SIT-INS OR WEEKLY SIT-INS OUTSIDE THEIR OWN FOREIGN MINISTRY.

THIS IS HELD BY CIVIL SERVANTS ACROSS EUROPE AND ACROSS AMERICA WHO CONTINUE TO SPEAK OUT.

AND I THINK THEY SHOULD BE LISTENED TO.

THERE IS A DISCONNECT HERE BETWEEN THE EXPERTISE OF CIVIL SERVANTS, THE POLICIES, AND THE POLICY UNDERSTANDING OF OUR CIVIL SERVANTS AND OUR INSTITUTIONS ON THE ONE HAND, AND THE POLITICS AND THE POLITICIANS AND THE DIRECTION THEY ARE SETTING.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT GAP, WHICH IS UNIQUE IN MY EXPERIENCE AND PAY ATTENTION TO THOSE VOICE.

>> JOSH PAUL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE WANTED TO LEAVE YOU WITH A LITTLE BIT OF A CELEBRATION OF LIFE AND SOME INCREDIBLE IMAGES THAT HAVE ACTUALLY NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE, NEVER BEEN CAPTURED BEFORE AS HUMPBACK WHALES HAVE BEEN OBSERVED MATING.

NOW IT'S THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS BEEN CAPTURED.

AND INDEED, SUCH AMOROUS ENCOUNTERS ARE EXCEEDINGLY RARE, BECAUSE HUMPBACK WHALES ONLY BREED EVERY TWO TO THREE YEARS, AND THEIR CALVES TAKE 11 MONTHS TO GESTATE.

THAT PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN TO THESE IN THE PICTURES BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH MALES.

CLEARLY, UNDER WATER IS A SAFE HAVEN.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.