-This is Vermont edition.

-I'm Mitch Wertlieb in for -Miakela Lefrak.

-When we consider the career -of former Vermont Governor -Madeleine Kunin, it's -!tempting to focus on the firsts, -and they are significant.

-Madeleine Kunin was the first -and to date, still -the only woman elected -to serve as governor -in the Green Mountain State, -!winning her first term in 1984.

-She's also the first -and only Jewish person -!to serve as Vermont's governor, -and the first woman -to be elected -to three gubernatorial terms -in any state in the country.

-But there is much more to -the story -of Kunin's career, -what she accomplished -during her time in office, -what came after -when she was appointed -as ambassador to Switzerland, -and the influence -!her historic leadership had on -!an entire generation of women.

-It's a thread -that can be followed -right up to two years ago, -!when Becca Ballant was elected -!for the first time as Vermont's -!first and to date, only female -congressional representative.

-That election, by the way, -also wiped out -the ignominious distinction -Vermont held -as being the only state -!that had never elected a woman -to serve in Congress.

-!When you add to all this, being -the author of numerous books, -including two published -poetry collections, -!the most recent of which, Walk -with me, came out last year, -there is a deep wellspring -!to explore when speaking about -!Vermont's first woman governor, -!and that's why we are delighted -to have Madeleine Kunin -herself with us today -on Vermont Edition.

-Governor, thank you so much -for being here.

-It's a delight to be here.

-Thank you.

-!You started out as a journalist, -at the Burlington Free Press -back in the early 70s.

-And I'm wondering -!when you decided that you wanted -to be involved in politics.

-!Was there a pivotal moment where -there was a pivotal moment?

-I think the Womans Movement -gave me the idea -that women could do anything, -and I wanted to be involved -in public events.

-and I wanted to be involved -in public events.

-And being in Vermont -!politics seems more accessible.

-And we had a small group -of people at that time -who encouraged each other -to do things larger -than their personal lives.

-And I took that seriously.

-You did.

-And, you know, for our -our younger listeners -who may not be familiar -with the U.S. -political landscape in 1984, -when you were first elected, -this was a time -when conservative politics -was cemented in power -under Ronald Reagan.

-He'd swept to a landslide -second term victory over -Democrat Walter Mondale.

-!The political map was still very -much male dominated as well.

-!I'm wondering if your candidacy -!for Vermont governor was viewed -!at the time as a longshot bid.

-Well, it probably -!was, but I tried to ignore that.

-And actually, -there was a female governor -in Connecticut, Ella Grasso, -and when I campaigned -in southern Vermont, -!somebody would just say to me, -you want to be another Ella?

-So thank goodness for Ella.

-And she helped unknowingly -pave the way for me.

-I'd like to read a passage -!from your book, Coming of Age, -in which you talk about -some of the specific things -that a man running for office -did not have to consider.

-And this deals -!with just just with how you were -told to dress at the time.

-Nothing to do with policy -or ideas, anything like that.

-You write the message -was, don't stand out.

-I was on a teeter totter, -not too feminine -and not too masculine.

-Just enough of each gender -to look like a real governor.

-Parentheses male -and still be true to myself.

-Parentheses.

Female.

-The test you wrote -is authenticity to masculine.

-And I would be aloof -or cold to feminine, -and I would be too soft -and weak.

-!40 years later, Madeleine Kunin.

-All that has changed, right?

-It has changed, -and yet it hasn't.

-Yeah, yeah.

-And you look at, -Kamala Harris.

-She wore the same style suit -every day -with different colors, but -!the suit looks like a man suit.

-So I think any woman -!who's running for higher office -or executive office has to be -that in-between person that -masculine enough to -reassure people -that she will be unusual, -but feminine enough -to be a convincing woman.

-It's a very fine line -!and it varies with each person.

-I think a did a pretty well.

-Did you resent at the time -that you had to consider -those things, -or did you think of it?

-Look, this is just part -!of the game that I have to play.

-If I want to reach -!the highest office in Vermont.

-Yeah, I think the latter, -I think I had to play -the game.

-I had good advisors, but, -you know, some things were, -like one person -called the campaign office -and said they didn't like -my gray stockings -and fashionable stockings.

-Sure.

Oh, cool.

-!So I had to go back to neutral -stockings, -and my hair was a pick up.

-A topic of conversation -when I cut my hair.

-Everybody knows when I didn't -care that everybody noticed.

-!Everybody noticed those things.

-Once you did become governor, -you had an opportunity -to bring other talented -and qualified women -into government.

-And this included -appointing the first woman -to Vermont's -!Supreme Court, Denise Johnson.

-Molly Beatty, -I believe, as well, was the, -appointed to the Department -!of Forest, Parks and Recreation.

-She would go on to become the -!first woman director of the U.S. -Fish and Wildlife Service.

-Was there much resistance -at the time -to any of these decisions?

-No, there really wasn't.

-I was I was very fortunate -!in the fact that a lot of women -had come into their prime -for when I was governor, -and I took some chance -as, Molly Bailey, -!who unfortunately Jag too young, -but she turned out -to be a terrific appointee, -!though she confessed to me later -that for an interview -she had referred, -she had about the first dress -!that she'd worn for many years.

-No kidding.

-That's something.

-We are speaking with former -Governor Madeleine Kunin.

-And, we have, received -some, emails already -from some folks -who wanted to write in -and express -some gratitude to you.

-Marie, -it looks like Marty -!from Middlebury writes in part -in 1990, as part of a group -organized by the children's -Art Exchange of Middlebury -planning to visit the former -Soviet Union.

-Governor Kunin hosted -!a portion of us in her office.

-She had personally invited -five additional Vermonters -to join our travel group -in order -to broaden our trip locations -to include Vermont's -sister state of Karelia -in the Soviet Union.

-And we had an unbelievable -trip, says Marty, -which extended our horizons -by sharing personal contacts -with Soviet citizens -during that particular time -in world history.

-She says, thank you, -Governor Kunin, for all that -you have accomplished -on behalf of others.

-You've definitely left -your mark.

That's very nice.

-We remember the and, -we established a sister state -with career there, -and we took a chance.

-!As I look back, it was December -and it was cold that year.

-And we did what you couldn't -unfortunately do.

-Now we get to establish -real friendships -!with the leaders of Korea there.

-And they paid a return visit -to Vermont.

-!I wondered now what happened to -those people who served -still active?

-Oh, I hope so.

-You know, after -you were governor of Vermont.

-Later, Bill Clinton in 1996 -!appointed you to be ambassador -to Switzerland.

-That's where you were born.

-I'm not sure how many people -are aware of that.

-Being born in Switzerland, -of course, precluded you -!from ever running for president.

-And I've always been curious -to ask you -this question, governor, -had you been born -in the United States?

-!Would you ever have considered -a run for the presidency?

-Oh, that's -that's a tough question, -which fortunately, -I didn't have to consider -because I had this ready made -excuse -of not being born -in the United States.

-The answer is, I don't know.

-Probably not.

-!I mean, I'm leaning towards no, -but who knows?

-I was just curious, -and I and I had to ask.

-I hope that's okay.

-I want to talk a little bit -more about, -!your being born in Switzerland -because this was a decision.

-You were born there, -and then your mother -left Switzerland -because she was worried -at the time that the Nazis -would invade.

Is that right?

-I mean, talk a little bit -about your background.

-What year?

-I was almost six years old -!when we came to America in 1940, -and, I couldn't -speak a word of English.

-But as a child, -you learned very quickly.

-And I wanted to be American.

-My mother instilled in me -and my brother Edgar Mae, -who to was my big brother, -four years older.

-She taught us that -!anything is possible in America.

-So the American dream -was very much alive -in our family.

-!And I think if anything made me -learn politics -for governor, for legislator.

-It was my mother's idealism -which was transferred to us.

-!She must have been a very strong -woman.

-That's a hard thing -to do to move your family -from one country to another, -especially at a time -when the world -is in such turmoil.

-Yes.

As I grew older, -!my gratitude to her increases.

-She was very brave.

-And my father died -when I was very young.

-It was three years old.

-So she -!was a widow with two children.

-For us, as children, -it was a big adventure.

-We looked at it -as a wonderful time.

-Right.

-I played shuffleboard -board, on board the ship.

-And so it was fun.

-I didn't know that there were -Nazi German ships -and submarines in the waters -that we would see -when you were running, -!for governor for the first time.

-We mentioned, -of course, -you were the first woman -governor, -the first Jewish -governor as well.

-How was Vermont as far -!as it went for you being a Jew?

-Was there antisemitism -that you encountered here, -or did -you have a lot of support?

-No, I didn't encounter -anti-Semitism, fortunately.

-!The only incident that happened -was a reporter called -!my chief of staff, Lisbon Koski, -who was in this wonderful, -the reporter who asked, what -would you do about the three, -three, -!three barriers that Ben cured?

-She's a woman she's with, -!and she's Jewish and was killed.

-The story really?

-And so I think most people -didn't know I was Jewish.

-And the other people didn't -care.

-And Vermonters -!just voted as they would.

Yes.

-Yeah.

-You know, -I mentioned Becca Balint -at the top of the of the show -here.

-She is the the first woman -to be elected -to Congress in Vermont.

-She's also Jewish.

-And she's the first openly -gay woman to be elected.

-Do you see a thread?

-!As I had mentioned at the top, -!between what you accomplished, -what you did, -and having her elected, -some four years later -in this capacity?

-That must be a thread.

-And I'm glad she pulled it, -that she's doing well.

-And again, -I don't think people care -!very much whether she's Jewish.

-Okay.

-Which is a credit to a state.

-Governor Kunin, -!one of the things that you did -as ambassador to Switzerland -was to create, with Swiss -banks, a compensation -fund for Holocaust survivors.

-And I wonder -if that was always a goal -when you accept the accepted -that job, -or did it -come about in another way?

-No, it wasn't my goal.

-But the minute -that I was announced, -I got a small briefing -!in Washington about the question -of Jewish assets -and Swiss banks.

-And when I got to -Switzerland, it -it came up every single day -that I was in office.

-And the question was, -was Switzerland, -in favor of the Nazis -in accepting these funds -and in, returning them -to the owners there were two, -two types of owners, -!those who survived the Holocaust -and would come to the banks -and ask for the money -and those who died -with their ears, -who had come for the funds.

-And it was a pretty -sensitive question, -!because my job as an ambassador -!was to have a good relationship -with Switzerland -and at the same time, -I had to push Switzerland -to come forward -with these bank accounts.

-So it -it was there all the time.

-!But in the end, we did succeed -in giving some money -back to the owners.

-!And publishing the accounts for.

-I felt somebody asked me -a if Clinton had asked me -to do this, -if he knew I was Jewish.

-Is it?

-No, Clinton -didn't ask me to do this.

-But at the end I felt -maybe -!maybe I was there for a purpose, -and I was happy -!we were able to solve the issue.

-Partly not entirely, but -!some of the money was returned.

-That was a bold decision, -because, as you say, -as a as a diplomat, -you have to straddle -that line between, you know, -!you're representing the country, -you want to have -!a good relationship with them.

-But I have to imagine that -because of your background, -because of, you know, -what your mother went through -and everything that happened -there.

-!This was really important to you -!on a deeply personal level, too.

-Yes.

It was.

-It was on a personal level.

-!And that's why it absorbed me.

-And it was all over the news.

-There was no tax treatment -as Sharon handle this, -but, I'm glad we succeeded.

-Mostly.

-Not completely, -but at least partially.

Yes.

-Governor, -you served as the chairwoman -!of the Appropriations Committee.

-You were the first woman -to assume this role.

-A lot of firsts for you.

-I've noticed that -to be a recurring theme -here, in your book, -that came out in 2012, -the new feminist agenda -defining the next Revolution -for women, work and family.

-You wrote that you found -an effective and unexpected -mentor in conservative -Republican Emory Hebert.

-I'm a proud gentleman.

-Yes.

You absolutely right.

-Yeah.

-You know, he championed you -as a key Democrat -on the committee, -lobbied -!for you to become the next chair -after he left to run -for state treasurer.

-How did that relationship -come about?

-Well, -!came about through friendship.

-At first I thought he was a -!strong right wing conservative.

-Cheever -wrote a letter to the editor, -!and I read something about him -to that effect.

-But we -!we we respected each other.

And -somehow, -each supported his -ideas now, -which were reasonable.

-And I realize that -the Appropriations Committee -was the most important -committee in the House -!because it controlled the purse -strings and everything.

-And we became good friends.

-And sometimes I had to bite -my tongue.

-I supported him, -but he recommended me -for the committee.

-!Some Democrats were the shard.

-!They thought I was too liberal, -but we overruled them.

So, -Very fond memories.

-We have heard from Glover.

-I want to talk a little bit -more about, -some of your early days -in office, and, -you had mentioned Liz, Ben -Koski as, who was brought -onto your team and, -I guess from Massachusetts, -there was a, -a Democratic congressman -and an article in Vtdigger.

-There was, there was -something that was given to -you as advice, -!which was to never hear a woman -campaign manager.

-Obviously, you didn't -listen to that advice.

-You're glad you didn't.

-Well, this was a big time -guy who had been involved -in many campaigns, -and we would listen.

-I went to visit him -and I introduced -this as my campaign manager, -!but the best of just was by him -because that was his advice.

-!Never I will campaign manager.

-Of course, this was the best -I could have chosen, -!and she still is a good friend -and a good political advisor -to lots of people.

-But it was a different world -where -you should have listened -more to men than were men.

-Were the experts.

-In my view, -the experts -were everywhere.

And, -!and I appointed a lot of women -who filled jobs -that are all held by me.

-And I took some risks.

-And we Molly -Bailey was one of them.

-Gretchen -Morse was Human Services.

-I mean, the list goes on.

-I wasn't -disappointed in any of them.

-And they after I left office, -they each positions -in important organizations -and with many of the women -!we meet every summer at my house -and reminisce -!and talk also about the person.

-!Governor, I wanted to ask about, -something you spearheaded -!as one of the most consequential -land use laws in Vermont's -history was called act 200, -and it passed in 1988.

-!There's a really serious debate, -as I'm sure you're aware, -in Montpelier right -!now, about whether our land use -statutes are preventing -the growth -!of needed housing development.

-We're in this housing crisis, -and I wonder, -are there aspects of act 200 -that need to be revisited, -do you think?

-And more broadly, -!what kind of regulatory reforms -do you think Vermont -should consider -as it tries -!to confront this housing crunch?

-Well, -I do applaud the legislature -for trying to address -the housing crisis.

-I wouldn't -dive into the question -of whether, -200 should be live is.

-There may be ways to do both -to grapple -with the housing crisis -and still protect -Vermont and future land use.

-But since I'm -not in the legislature, -I don't know all the facts.

-I would urge the legislators -not to give up -!on protecting Vermont open land, -but we have to deal -with the housing crisis.

-It's an urgent problem -not only in Burlington, -!but another part of the state.

-As you know, being governor -never comes -without some criticism.

-And you -did face some criticism, -!from the environmental community -during your tenure -for supporting construction -of a 190 -mile natural gas pipeline.

-!This was going to go from Canada -to Massachusetts.

-!It would have bisected Vermont.

-And you said at the time -the project would help -reduce the state's -reliance on nuclear power.

-These are back in the days -when Vermont Yankee -was still up and running.

-I'm wondering -if your views on energy -have shifted -as we've learned more -about the role of carbon -emissions and climate change?

-And would you support -!a similar natural gas pipeline -project today?

-I don't know that.

-That's another honest answer.

-Governor.

Thank you.

-I just that's the understand.

-!We're a strong environmentalist -state, and I was then.

-But sometimes you have -!to make choices, and the choices -!can be between two good things -or two bad things.

-That, -that was 40 some years ago.

-I think natural -gas is the best alternative, -but it depends -!what you have to do to get it.

-Tina is on the line -from Lincoln.

-Hi, Tina.

Hi.

-This is very apropos, -because what I wanted to say.

-Hello, governor.

-And thank you so much -!for all you've done for Vermont.

-Was that.

-I live in Lincoln.

-!And one night there was a party -for a Democratic, person -running for for office, -and I -wanted to just -walk up to this house -because there's only about -a half a mile from my house.

-!So I walked up in the dark and -and arrived at this party, -and there you were, governor.

-!And I was able to chat with you.

-!And I just thought this wouldn't -happen in any other state.

-Only in Vermont.

-Right.

-!What's so wonderful to feel like -we have, -!we can talk to our, government, -appointees -and governors and senators -and it's, thank you so much.

-It's just great.

-I love living in this state, -and I loved having you -as a governor.

-Well, thank you so much.

-Thanks for calling.

-Wonderful ceremony.

-!Thank you for that call, Tina.

-We have Natalie on the line -from Huntington.

-Hi, Natalie.

-On with Governor Kunin.

-Hello, Governor Kunin.

Hello.

-Thank you.

-Thank you so much -for your incredible -governorship, -your amazing leadership, -and your decades -!of giving Vermont and the world -the best in what leaders are -and what they can do.

-You're quite the role model.

-Back in the early 90s.

-There was you held a rally.

-!You were the speaker at a rally, -and you had many speakers.

-!And I was one of them in support -!of the young women in Vermont.

-I worked for -Step Up at the time.

-Oh, yes.

-And I got on the steps and -gave my little speech -in my green hard hat.

-And, you I just wanted to -thank you for this.

-!Your support of the young girls -in Vermont, -letting them know -they're they can do anything.

-!And, that was a memorable time.

-So I really appreciate -your years of service.

-And keep going.

-You continue on.

-I will will carry your spirit -to do with what we have here.

-!We're going to figure a way out.

-!Thank you so much for calling.

-And you're right.

-We have to figure a way out.

-In a way, in true to the.

-Our voices be heard.

-Natalie, thank you very much -for that phone call So, -governor, tune in.

-I want to get to the sort -of the elephant in the room, -if you will.

-We are one week -or so away from the results -of the presidential election, -!and I know that you were hoping, -of course, Hillary -Clinton would become -!the first female president when -!she ran against Trump in 2016.

-I'm wondering how you felt -about Kamala Harris's -chances -this time around in 2024.

-Did you think she was going -to win?

-!Yes, I did think she was going -to win.

-And I have to confess, -I always hoped that -I would live long enough -to see a woman president.

-And that hope was shattered, -as it was for so many of us.

-And my first reaction was not -only the question of a woman, -but the question of -!what kind of country we live in.

-Was being determined -by this election.

-!And I think your first reaction, -at least that was -mine, was sort of the crawl -into a hole -!and ignore what was happening.

-But since then, I've started -to get a broader perspective, -and I think -we have to be active.

-We have to be engaged -to the extent that we can be.

-Because if, if, if you -crawl into a -hole, if you ignore -what is happening.

-It's a it's -a form of acquiescence, -!as if we accept the status quo -and we can't accept things -like millions of -of immigrants -!being kicked out of the country.

-There's so many things -that Trump has promised -which is going to fulfill -his promise.

Her.

-So even though it's hard, -!even though it seems impossible, -we have to be engaged.

-And, I read the, -diary of the Russian -protester who died recently.

-And he had this -incredible courage.

-!So I think we have to figure out -how we can respond.

-It's hard work.

-It's maybe sex work, -but we have to find a way -within our capacity -to stand up for democracy, -to stand up for freedom.

-That's Alexei Navalny, -who you were -!just going to call who resisted -Vladimir Putin and yes.

-And died recently.

-There is this kind of -postmortem going on right now -in the Democratic Party -to figure out -what went wrong for Kamala -Harris.

-Perhaps it's too soon -to figure that out.

-I am curious -!if you have any strong opinions -on why her candidacy failed.

-No, I think -it's in the whole country.

-Kind of failed -!or the Democratic Party failed.

-We we didn't rig correctly -the mood of the country.

-Which, it was accepting -of things like money -for childcare, -!all the problems she proposed.

-But the country -was still bruised and -and smitten by by Covid for -inflation.

-That was on people's minds.

-So we miscalculated.

-And she miscalculated -because that's -where the Democrats were.

-And we've got to reconfigure -the Democratic Party -and figure out how to reach -ordinary people, -!not just those who appear on TV.

-How to really respond -to the needs of the populace -in a healthful and clear way.

-So we've got a lot of work -to do.

-Democratic party.

-And I think Kamala actually -had a stellar campaign.

-She didn't have to apologize -about anything.

-And I was very proud of her.

-So she reflected where -half the country was.

-But the other half for Trump.

-And of course, Vermont -went heavily for Harris, -who was the first state -to be called for her.

-But it's also true -that more Vermonters -voted for Trump in 2024 -than either of the previous -two times -that he ran for president.

-!What do you attribute that to?

-!Is it just a microcosm of that -national result -you were talking about?

-!Yeah, I didn't know that until -you mentioned it, but, yeah.

-Massive.

-In a microcosm -of the national mood.

-We didn't capture that.

-We talked, which, I thought -that the country -would be disgusted by Trump.

-Shrill.

Garrity meanness.

-But I think they like -strong leadership.

-And he's a macho man.

-And we're going to see -how that plays out -in the next few years.

-Even though I will, -we would love to see.

-!I hope the country would turn to -!a strong leader in the future.

-We got this email from Donna -who writes, Governor -Keenan had much influence -on getting more women -!involved in politics in Vermont.

-This is excellent.

-However, I attended a meeting -featuring her and other -Democratic women -and found that their ideas -were quite -to the left of my own.

-I consider myself a centrist -Democrat, writes Donna.

-I often wonder -if the ideas expressed -at that meeting -!were more fiscally conservative.

-If they were, -if I might have gotten -more involved in politics.

-Now, she says, -I tend to split my vote, -and I am looking for more -!moderate Democrats, independents -and Republicans when I vote.

-So what Don is writing about -there, Governor Coonan?

-Kunin, this, sort of wanting -to have a more centrist, -kind of view.

-That's something that -!certainly Governor Phil Scott, -the current governor, -is pushing for.

-Do you think she has a kind -!of point there that, you know, -because the Democrats, -as you're saying, can go -!one way, they can maybe go hard -!left, like I think maybe Bernie -!Sanders would like to see or try -for a more centrist approach.

-!Do you think there's a right way -here?

-!I think we have to do a lot of -talking and thinking -and talking to people -we don't usually talk to.

-So I think -Donna's message is very big.

-We have to -!be a little bit more centrist.

-I have advocated my books, -for child care.

-And those benefits.

-!But we also have to find a way -to stop the billionaires -having such -an enormous influence -on, politics in, elections.

-I think it's a way just now, -I can't think of his name.

-I think you're -maybe thinking of Elon Musk.

-I'm trying to read your mind -!here, but, yeah, you know, Musk, -you could buy votes.

-Really?

-So I don't see how that was -legal -at the time we dismissed it.

-And he's going to have -a big influence -in the administration just -because he's rich, you know?

-So that is not good -for democracy.

-Yeah.

Well, he.

-Yeah, he he bought up -!one of the largest social media -platforms in the country -just because he could.

-And certainly -we don't know if that's -!what spurred Trump to victory, -but it obviously -had some influence.

-When you -have that kind of a platform -and you can just buy it -because you have -that much money.

-Let's go back to the phone -lines with Laurel on the line -from Jericho.

Hi, Laurel.

-Hi.

I -am very thrilled -to speak to both of you.

-Governor Kunin, you and I -first spoke over 40 years ago -when you referred me -to Howard Dean -to mic a fundraiser -because, Sandy and Caroline -painted your neighbors -!from the northern Vermont area -and told me to call you.

-Over the years, we've crossed -paths a few other times.

-You thrilled us all -when you would buy my late -husband's products.

Set -the Burlington Farmers Market -for its archers farm sauces.

-But the thing -that sticks with me the most -is your book on feminism.

-And I've shared that -with many women.

-I so appreciate it -that you kind of -called us on the carpet -about dropping the ball.

-!Thank you so much for calling.

-And, -trying to -!remember exactly where we met.

-But thank you for calling in.

-And, singing my praises, -which maybe deserved it, -you know?

-These personal connections -you have with -!listeners are really something, -governor.

-!And, Laurel, thank you very much -for that call.

-I mentioned -at the start of the program, -governor, -that you were elected -in 1984, a year -when Republicans -won the presidency -by a far greater -!margin than Trump did this year.

-I'm not sure people -remember that.

-In fact, -the only state that Democrats -!won in 1984 was Walter Mondale, -his home state of Minnesota.

-The map was entirely red.

-Otherwise, eight years later, -though, things did change.

-Bill Clinton won -the presidency.

Democrats -were suddenly no longer -on the outside looking in.

-Do you see that as a reason -for hope -for the Democratic Party, -!or is that analogy not relevant -!given, you know, the uniqueness -of the Trump presidency?

-!Now, the fact that Republicans -!control the House and the Senate -and the Supreme Court -!has given near blanket immunity -!to the powers of the presidency -recently.

-Well, no, I think -absolutely that exam, for -example, may be correct.

-Things change -very quickly in politics.

-!We may even see a slight change -!in two years of having to wait -for four years -!as the impact of Trump policies -hit people -and they feel personally, -so we have -to have hope for the future.

-That's -!what this country is built on.

-The people have a voice, -and we have to express -our opinions and our fears -and our hope to the dreams -and they will have an impact.

-I mean, the important thing -is for people to be engaged.

-I mean, the first response -to bad news is -you want to ignore it.

-And I watched this news -that I used to -before the election and, -consoled myself by reading -!poetry and just reading fiction.

-So we go -through this mourning period, -but then we have to wake up -and be active.

-And you write in your book, -Coming of Age, about that -very thing.

-You you're a believer -in protest, in activism -!and getting out in the streets.

-And you still -think that can help?

Yes.

-Silence -will move us in the other -direction.

-Silence -!is equivalent to acquiescence.

-I think we have time -for one more phone call.

-!Let's go to Karen in Shelburne.

-Hi, Karen.

-!You're on with former Governor -Madeleine Kunin.

-Hi.

Hello, Madeleine.

-I've known you, of course, -and admired you forever.

-I was looking out -!as I look out at Shelburne Bay.

-I was remembering back -many, many years ago -when you and I both used -to be out swimming -!in the early morning in the bay.

-Yes.

I remember telling my I.

-Yeah, it was.

Remember my.

-It was, -!except for the duck itch, but, -But which -!which you first warned me about.

-But, I remembered my telling -my out-of-state -friends that, you know, -the governor and I were out -swimming this morning, -but commenting -!on how accessible government is -!and was in Vermont and how much -I've always appreciated that.

-So, thank you again.

-Thank you for calling -and having such a good memory -!and an appreciation of Vermont, -that we have -!the ability here in this state -to have an impact.

-!I'm afraid to ask what the duck -!that she was was talking about.

-You have any idea?

-But it sounds painful.

-Maybe we'll leave that one -for another time.

-Well, it's a -so called swimmer's itch.

-Oh, okay.

All right.

-But I love the fact -that you were out there -swimming in the early, late.

-I mean, what -a wonderful thing to do.

-And maybe something else -!people can do now to deal with -some of that despair -!you were talking about before.

-Get out in nature.

-Appreciate what we have here -in the state of Vermont.

-Yes.

Yes.

-On Election day, -the day after the election, -a small group of us -went to see the snow geese -and it was so beautiful -and a wonderful sense.

-And I saw nature.

-Nature will heal us.

-Governor Madeline Kunin, -the first and to this state.

-Only woman governor -of the state of Vermont.

-I want to thank you so much -for your service.

-I want to thank you -so much for the time.

-!And I don't mean just for today.

-Thank you.

-It's been a pleasure -to be on with you.

-That's it for today's show.

-And as always, -!you can weigh in on our program -or purchase ideas -by emailing Vermont Edition -at Vermont public.org.

-!You can also find Vermont Public -on Instagram.

-Today's show was directed -by Liz Fullerton.

-Our managing producer is John -Aarons.

-Andrea Lauren and Daniella -Fierro are our producers.

-Rick Barrett -was our call screener today -and our theme music -is by Myra Flynn.

-I'm Mitch Wert Lieb Informa -kill all the frack.

-!Thank you so much for listening.

-!And we'll catch up again soon.