>> WELCOME TO "THE MAINE EVENT."

JOIN HOSTS HANNAH PINGREE, FORMER SPEAKER, AND ROGER KATZ AS THEY BRING FORWARD POLICY MAKERS AND DECISION SHAPERS TO DISCUSS IMPORTANT ISSUES AFFECTING THE ENTIRE STATE.

TO WRAP IT UP, WE WILL VISIT WITH GARY CROCKER AS HE GIVES US HIS "VIEW FROM WEST GARDINER."

IT'S ALL RIGHT HERE AT "THE MAINE EVENT."

ROGER: WELCOME TO "THE MAINE EVENT."

MY NAME IS ROGER KATZ.

I'M A REPUBLICAN STATE SENATOR, JOINED AS ALWAYS BY MY COLLEAGUE HANNAH PINGREE, FORMER DEMOCRATIC SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

TONIGHT WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE STATUS OF THE PRESS, NATIONALLY AND IN MAINE PARTICULARLY, AND THE ASSAULT ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

HANNAH: WE ARE LIVING THROUGH AN UNPRECEDENTED TIME.

WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO HAS AGGRESSIVELY GONE AFTER THE U.S.

NEWS MEDIA.

WE LIVED THROUGH AN ELECTION WHERE THERE WAS FAKE NEWS BEING PLANTED BY RUSSIANS.

NOT TO MENTION, THE SHRIEKING OF THE NEWS MEDIA -- THE SHRINKING OF THE NEWS MEDIA.

IT'S A RADICALLY DIFFERENT TIME THAN EVEN FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO.

ROGER: WHAT ARE THE INDICATIONS IF PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER GOING TO TRUST THEIR SOURCES OF NEWS?

WHERE ARE PEOPLE GETTING THEIR NEWS NOW?

WHAT KIND OF STANDARDS ARE THERE FOR THOSE PEOPLE?

WE HAVE A COUPLE OF VERY INTERESTING GUESTS TO DISCUSS BOTH OF THOSE ISSUES.

HANNAH AND I WILL BE RIGHT BACK.

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HANNAH: WELCOME BACK.

HERE TO TALK TO US ABOUT MEDIA, POLITICS, AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT, WE HAVE TWO GREAT GUESTS.

MAL LEARY IS BACK.

OUR OTHER GUEST IS DAN SHEA, PROFESSOR OF GOVERNMENT AT COLBY COLLEGE.

THANKS FOR COMING IN.

ROGER: GENTLEMEN, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

MAL, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE THE OLDER OF THE TWO GUESTS.

WHEN I WAS A KID, NEWS WAS VERY DIFFERENT.

WALTER CRONKITE WAS THE SOURCE OF NEWS FOR THE UNITED STATES, A TRUSTED SOURCE.

PEOPLE READ THE DAILY PAPER EVERY SINGLE MORNING, AND THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH IT.

THERE WAS A CERTAIN CULTURE AND A CERTAIN ETHIC ABOUT THOSE OPERATIONS.

TODAY IS VERY DIFFERENT, ISN'T IT?

>> IT IS.

IF YOU GO BACK, HISTORICALLY, PEOPLE USED TO HAVE ONE DAILY NEWSPAPER, SOMETIMES TWO.SOMETIMES THERE WAS AN AFTERNOON PAPER AS WELL AS THE MORNING PAPER.

THERE WERE THE THREE NETWORKS.

THAT'S IT.

THAT'S WHERE YOU GOT YOUR NEWS, ONE OF THOSE THREE NETWORKS.

CBS DOMINATED IN THIS STATE FOR DECADES.

THAT'S ALL CHANGED.

WE HAVE THIS PLETHORA OF NEWS SOURCES.

WE HAVE ALL THE CABLE NEWS NETWORKS.

I MEAN, I CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF ALL THE CABLE NEWS NETWORKS THAT KEEP COMING UP.

THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU HAVE FOX AND MSNBC SPINNING OFF THEIR SITE NETWORKS -- SIDE NETWORKS.

THE NEWSPAPERS HAVE GONE DOWNHILL.

THEY'RE A FRACTION OF WHAT THEY USED TO BE IN TERMS OF CIRCULATION.

THEY ARE PICKING UP SOME IN SOME PLACES WITH THEIR WEBSITES.

WE HAVE THIS MIGRATION BECAUSE OF TECHNOLOGY.

THE INTERNET IS A WONDERFUL THING AND A TERRIBLE THING AT THE SAME TIME.

IT IS WONDERFUL, IN THAT WE CAN GO ONLINE AND RESEARCH STUFF WE NEVER COULD RESEARCH BEFORE AS REPORTERS.

IT'S A TERRIBLE THING WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE TAKING, AS THEY SO OFTEN DO THESE DAYS, A LITTLE SLIVER OF TRUTH AND DISTORT IT ALL TO HELL.

AND YOU SEE THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN NOW.

AND THAT HAS LED, I THINK, TO A CRISIS FOR THE MEDIA, THE TRADITIONAL NEWS MEDIA, BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MAINE PUBLIC BROADCASTING THAT I WORK FOR WITH OUR STANDARDS, WHERE WE APPLY THE STANDARDS OF THE SOCIETY OF PROFESSIONAL JOURNALISTS TO WHAT WE DO AND WE TRY TO DO STORIES THAT ARE VETTED AND EDITED, TO A WEBSITE WHERE SOMEBODY IS SETTING -- SITTING AT THEIR DESKS AT HOME -, AND THEY DON'T LIKE ROGER KATZ, SO THEY WRITE A NASTY POST TO THEIR BLOG ABOUT HE DARE VOTED FOR SOMETHING AND CAST ASPERSIONS UPON HIS MOTIVES.

THAT'S A TOTAL CHANGE FROM WHAT WE HAD WHEN I STARTED IN THE BUSINESS.

HANNAH: DAN, YOU TEACH A CLASS ON MEDIA AND POLITICS.

I'M ASSUMING YOU HAVE TAUGHT IT FOR A WHILE.

HOW RAPID HAS THE CHANGE BEEN IN THE INTERSECTION BETWEEN MEDIA AND POLITICS, THE FAKE NEWS, ALL THE CHANGE WE HAVE SEEN ACCELERATE OVER THE LAST COUPLE YEARS?

>> IT HAS BEEN FAST.

A DECADE AGO, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE CENTRALIZATION OF MEDIA, THE DECLINE OF LOCAL NEWS.

WHEN I WAS A KID, I DELIVERED THE PAPER TO THE PUBLISHER IN THE TOWN.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ANYMORE BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL OWNED BY CHAINS.

THAT WAS A CONCERN A WHILE AGO.

THE DECLINE OF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING, THE ANNENBERG SCHOOL ISSUED A REPORT A FEW YEARS AGO ABOUT HOW EXPENSIVE IT IS TO DO IN-DEPTH REPORTING, AND THAT HAS BEEN A BIG ISSUE.

LATELY, OF COURSE, IT IS THE ASSAULT ON THE MEDIA.

IT IS THE NOWCASTING OF INFORMATION.

IT IS THE RISE OF FAKE NEWS AND ALTERNATIVE FACTS.

THAT WILL TAKE UP A GOOD CHUNK OF THE SEMESTER THIS SPRING.

ROGER: BEFORE WE EVEN GET TO TALKING ABOUT FAKE NEWS, I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CABLE TV.

I THINK THERE WAS A TIME NOT THAT LONG AGO, THERE WAS MSNBC OVER ON THE LEFT, FOX NEWS OVER ON THE RIGHT.

BUT MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT CNN WAS KIND OF RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE.

AT LEAST FOR THIS VIEWER, THAT'S WHERE I LOOK TO FOR RELATIVELY UNBIASED SOURCE OF NEWS.

IT SEEMS THAT EVEN THEY HAVE BECOME A PARTISAN, CERTAINLY WITHIN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

IS THERE IN THE CABLE AREA IN TERMS OF JOURNALISM -- WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE NEWS?

>> WHAT I THINK THEY HAVE DISCOVERED IS THAT THERE IS A SUCCESSFUL MODEL IN MAINTAINING A LOYAL AUDIENCE.

THE AUDIENCE DOESN'T NEED TO BE PARTICULARLY LARGE, BUT THEY NEED TO KEEP COMING BACK DAY AFTER DAY.

WHAT I'VE ARGUED IS WHAT KEEPS THEM BACK IS RED MEAT, WHAT IS THE NEXT CRISIS OR THE ASSAULT AGAINST YOUR MEMBERS OF YOUR PARTY AND SO FORTH.

SO, STATIONS LIKE FOX NEWS AND MSNBC DO VERY WELL AT KEEPING THEIR AUDIENCE, AND THEY KEEP THEIR AUDIENCE BY EXAGGERATING ISSUES INTO QUESTIONS OF RIGHTS AND THE CRISIS AND SO FORTH.

AND THE NEXT SCANDAL.

SO, THAT'S A BIG PART OF IT.

CNN, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

I NEVER THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO TAKE OFF.

AND THEN OF COURSE THE PERSIAN GULF WAR HAPPENED.

THAT'S WHEN THEY BURST ON THE SCENE.

ALONG WITH THAT WAS TALK RADIO, WHICH IS ANOTHER PART OF THE NEWS THESE DAYS.

HANNAH: LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME PROMINENT FIGURES, BOTH IN MAINE, GOVERNOR LEPAGE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE SPENT A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME REFUSING TO SPEAK TO THE MEDIA, SAYING THEY ARE A BUNCH OF CROOKS.

I CAN'T FROM EVER THE EXACT WORD, BUT SAYING THEY ARE ONE OF THE MOST EVIL FORCES IN AMERICAN POLITICS RIGHT NOW.

MAL, YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE NEWS MEDIA.

I KNOW YOU HAVE HAD YOUR RUN-INS WITH THE GOVERNOR.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR OUR DEMOCRACY WHEN YOU HAVE HIGHEST LEVEL ELECTED OFFICIALS ATTACKING THE NEWS MEDIA ON A REGULAR BASIS?

>> YOU HAVE OFFICIALS LIKE THE GOVERNOR AND THE PRESIDENT.

CONGRESSMAN POLLOCK WIN -- THE CONGRESSMAN WHO SAY WE ARE GOING TO IGNORE THE NEWS MEDIA.

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR MESSAGE DIRECTLY TO THE VOTERS.

THE VOTERS LOSE OUT, BECAUSE INSTEAD OF BEING ABLE TO PUT PERSPECTIVE ON THE NEWS -- IN OTHER WORDS, TAKE ANY ISSUE UNDER THE SUN, SOME ISSUE BEING PROPOSED AND THE DEBATE OVER WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO.

THE PRESS IS GOING TO ASK ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.

IS IT WORTH IT?

HOW IS IT GOING TO BE INVESTED?

WHAT IS THE OVERSIGHT TO MAKE SURE THE MONEY IS BEING SPENT PROPERLY?

THAT'S ALL LOST WHEN IT IS THE LEGISLATOR OR THE GOVERNOR OR THE CONGRESSMAN JUST GOING DIRECTLY ON FACEBOOK, DIRECTLY ON TWITTER, DIRECTLY ON ALTHOUGH SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND, IN FACT, CHOOSING VERY CAREFULLY HOW THEY APPEAR ON THE MEDIA ITSELF.

THE CONGRESSMAN'S OFFICE IS GOOD TO TELL US WHEN HE IS ON THE FLOOR GIVING A SPEECH, BECAUSE THEY KNOW WE WILL RECORD IT AND LIKELY DO A STORY OF WHAT HE SAID ON THE FLOOR.

BUT NO FOLLOW-UP TO WHAT IT WAS THAT HE SAID IN TERMS OF TRYING TO PUT THE PERSPECTIVE ON IT, TRYING TO PUT THE BACKGROUND TO IT.

THOSE SORTS OF QUESTIONS.

THE VERY FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF WHAT WE DO IN THE MEDIA, IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING AND GETTING TO THE TRUTH, IS LOST WHEN THERE IS NO INTERACTION BETWEEN THOSE VERY IMPORTANT POLITICAL PLAYERS AND THE NEWS MEDIA.

TO THE GOVERNOR, HE AND I ACTUALLY GET ALONG PRETTY WELL.

SOMETIMES HE WILL BLOW ME OFF AND SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT."

OTHER TIMES, HE WILL STOP AND GO ON FOR 15 OR 20 MINUTES ON A PARTICULAR ISSUE.

HE BLOWS HOT OR COLD ENTIRELY.

>> IT IS NOT A SMALL ISSUE.

FROM A REPORTER'S PERSPECTIVE, BUT FROM A CITIZEN'S PERSPECTIVE, THERE ARE TWO REALLY IMPORTANT PARTS.

IT STRIKES AT THE WAY OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT WAS SET UP AND THE NATURE OF ELECTIONS.

THERE WAS THIS CRAZY IDEA BY MADISON THAT WE WOULD MAKE SURE THAT AMBITION WOULD BE COUNTERING AMBITION, THAT THERE WOULD BE THESE CHECKS AND BALANCES AND SHARED POWERS THAT WOULD BE WITHIN THE INSTITUTION, BUT THERE WOULD ALSO BE A MEDIA THAT COULD PROVIDE INFORMATION.

PROVIDE CITIZENS THE INFORMATION THAT THEY WOULD NEED TO CHECK THOSE IN POWER.

IT STRIKES AT THE ELECTION PROCESS BECAUSE OUR SIDE WILL ALWAYS WIN.

IF WE ARE ONLY GETTING INFORMATION THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH OUR POSITIONS, THEN THE WHOLE PROCESS OF OBJECTIVELY PICKING WHO HAS DONE A GOOD JOB AND WHO HAS NOT DONE A GOOD JOB IS GONE.

OUR SIDE WILL HAVE ALWAYS DONE A GOOD JOB.

THE OTHER SIDE WILL HAVE ALWAYS FAILED.

THIS IS A BIG ISSUE IN OUR DEMOCRACY.

HANNAH: WE HAVE PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THE ACTUAL TERM HE USED IS "THE NEWS MEDIA IS THE ENEMY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE."

WE HAVE SENATOR JEFF FLAKE GIVING A SPEECH ABOUT WHAT A PROBLEM THIS IS FOR OUR DEMOCRACY.

IN YOUR OPINION, HOW UNPRECEDENTED IS THIS LEVEL OF ATTACK BY THE PRESIDENT ON THE MEDIA?

>> IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

THERE IS A CONFLICTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MEDIA.

THEY LOVE TO USE THE MEDIA, BUT OFTEN THEY ARE AT ODDS.

NIXON HAD A TOUGH TIME WITH THE MEDIA, EVEN WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY AND FOR GOVERNOR.

DURING WATERGATE, HE IS RECORDED SAYING THAT THE MEDIA IS THE ENEMY.

SO, HE SAID THAT.

TEDDY ROOSEVELT HAD A TOUGH TIME WITH THE MEDIA.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN HAD A UNIQUE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MEDIA.

WE ALL KNOW THAT HE JAILED NORTHERN EDITORS THAT WERE CRITICAL OF HIS EFFORTS.

PROBABLY THE MOST ANALOGOUS PART OF OUR HISTORY, I THINK, WOULD PROBABLY BE THE ADAMS ADMINISTRATION, WHEN HE WORKED WITH THE FEDERALIST TO PRESS THE SEDITION ACTS, WHICH MADE IT ILLEGAL TO CRITICIZE HIS GOVERNMENT.

IT WAS A BIG DEAL.

I'M SURE HE REGRETTED IT.

THE REST OF HIS DAYS.

OF COURSE, JEFFERSON WON THE NEXT ELECTION.

HE PARDONED EVERYBODY WHO WAS CONVICTED OF THE SEDITION ACTS.

I'M NOT SAYING WE ARE GOING THAT FAR, BUT I THINK IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

THIS IS BEYOND THE NAGGING NEGATIVITY.

IT'S A BIG DEAL, HANNAH.

ROGER: YOU HAVE TO EARN TRUST.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT THE ELECTORATE CAN TRUST THE MEDIA -- TO BE ABLE TO TRUST NEWSPAPERS AND TELEVISION NEWS REPORTERS?

TO A DEMOCRACY, HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT?

WHAT DO THESE KINDS OF ATTACKS DO IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW WITH THE LACK OF TRUST?

>> JUST A QUICK ANECDOTE.

YOU MENTIONED WALTER CRONKITE.

IN THE HEAT OF THE VIETNAM WAR, THE TET OFFENSIVE, WALTER CRONKITE WENT BACK AND WENT TO VIETNAM AND CAME BACK, AND HE GAVE THIS REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE ON THE NEWS ABOUT HOW THE WAR COULDN'T BE WON.LYNDON JOHNSON SAW THAT AND SAID , "IF WE'VE LOST WALTER CRONKITE, WE'VE LOST AMERICA."

THIS WAS SOMEONE THAT WAS ABLE TO PURVEY OBJECTIVE INFORMATION.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT NOW.

>> PEOPLE LOSE TRUST IN YOU AND THE PRESS -- AS A SOURCE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR DEMOCRACY ON A STATEWIDE BASIS?

>> TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT DAN SAID, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN READING A LOT ABOUT THE 1800'S, THE EARLY-1800'S.

REALLY, YOU COULD DRAW PARALLELS.

THE NEWSPAPERS THEN WERE NOT WHAT NEWSPAPERS EVENTUALLY BECAME, WHICH IS ATTEMPT TO PURVEY THE TRUTH, TRY TO BE FAIR AND OBJECTIVE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THOSE NEWSPAPERS, 1790'S, EARLY PART OF THE 1800'S, THEY WERE PARTISAN.

THEY WERE REALLY SCANDALOUS AT TIMES IN TERMS OF THEIR ATTACKS.

AND THESE WERE NOT THE EDITORIAL PAGES.

THESE WERE THE FRONT PAGE.

AND PEOPLE WERE BUYING THE NEWSPAPER DEPENDING ON THEIR POLITICAL PERSUASION.

WE'VE ALMOST COME FULL CIRCLE TO THAT NOW.

PEOPLE ARE WATCHING FOX NEWS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO HEAR THAT POINT OF VIEW.

THEY WANT TO HEAR MSNBC BECAUSE THEY WANT TO HEAR THAT POINT OF VIEW.

THAT IS SO DANGEROUS TO MY PROFESSION, WHICH IS TO GET THE TRUTH ACROSS AND TO HAVE PEOPLE BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU SAY, NO, THIS IS WHAT THIS DOES, THIS IS NOT WHAT IT DOES.

AND YOU TRY TO DO THAT AS BEST YOU CAN DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

I THINK ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS IS SOME OF THE POLLING DATA GETS VERY INTERESTING WHEN YOU ASK ABOUT SPECIFIC REPORTERS OR SPECIFIC NEWS ORGANIZATIONS.

SOMETIMES VOTERS ARE SAYING, OH, YEAH, I TRUST THEM, BUT I DON'T TRUST THESE GUYS.

THAT'S A REAL BAD SITUATION.

HANNAH: SO, A DIFFERENT ISSUE IS, BUT CONNECTED, IS FAKE NEWS.

WE HAVE BOTH OUR PRESIDENT AND EVEN SOMETIMES OUR GOVERNOR WILL CLAIM THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA IS FAKE NEWS, AND THEN WE HAVE ACTUAL FAKE NEWS, WHICH ARE STORIES THAT ARE ENTIRELY NOT TRUTHFUL OR MOSTLY NOT TRUTHFUL, POPPING UP ON THE INTERNET AND BEING PROMOTED.

WE SAW THAT PLAY OUT IN THE LAST ELECTION.

TALK TO US ABOUT FAKE NEWS AND THE IMPACTS IT MAY BE HAVING.

>> IT'S INTERESTING THE WAY YOU PHRASE YOUR QUESTION, BECAUSE THERE IS EVEN DISAGREEMENT ON HOW TO DEFINE FAKE NEWS.

THERE IS A NEW REPORT OUT BY GALLUP AND A FOUNDATION THAT SURVEYED A BUNCH OF PEOPLE.

FOR REPUBLICANS, FAKE NEWS ARE STORIES IN THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA THAT ARE NOT ACCURATE.

HANNAH: WHAT DO YOU -- THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE.

>> CRITICISMS OF THEIR GOVERNOR OR THEIR PRESIDENT.

> BUT FOR THOSE ON THE OTHER SIDE IT IS THESE PLANTED STORIES YOU'RE REFERRING TO, BY THE RUSSIANS IN THE CAMPAIGN, AND WE MAY HAVE SEEN IN THIS RACE FOR MAYOR.

HANNAH: IN LEWISTON.

>> YEAH, IT'S A BIG DEAL.

ONLY ABOUT 20% OF AMERICANS NOW HAVE A LOT OF FAITH IN THE MEDIA.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE IS LESS TRUST IN THE MEDIA AMONG CONSERVATIVES, AMONG REPUBLICANS.

IT IS REALLY 2-1.

THEY'D DOUBT THE LEGITIMACY OF THE PRESS.

THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE TRUTH, WHICH IS WHAT NPR AND MPBN TRIES TO DO, IN MY VIEW.

BUT IF THAT CAN'T BE ACCEPTED -- HANNAH: HOW DIFFERENT IS FAKE NEWS -- WE HIT ON THE FACT THAT THIS -- WE THINK THIS IS PLAYING OUT IN MAINE.

WE DID A STORY ABOUT HOW SENATOR COLLINS RELEASED THAT SOME OF THESE NEWS STORIES IN MAINE WERE BEING PLANTED BY THE RUSSIANS ABOUT SOME LOCAL RACES.

>> IT IS VERY DANGEROUS.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU COMBAT IT, ALTHOUGH I KNOW SOME OF MY FRIENDS IN THE MEDIA ARE TRYING TO DO IT.

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS HAS BEEN DOING A WONDERFUL JOB WITH TRYING TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON SOME OF THESE WILD ACCUSATIONS THAT GO ON THE WEB.

MY FAVORITE HERE IS A HEADLINE THAT WAS ON A WHOLE BUNCH OF WEBSITES.

SCIENTISTS EXPECT CHOCOLATE TO GO EXTINCT BY 2015.

THEY WENT IN, DUG IT OUT.

TWO STORIES WERE SHOWING THAT, BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, THE COCOA PRODUCTION IS EXPECTED TO GO DOWN.

SOMEHOW, THAT BECAME EXTINCT CHOCOLATE, AS OPPOSED TO MAYBE WE ARE GOING TO HAVE SUPPLY DIFFICULTIES.

HANNAH: THAT IS A DEVASTATING NEWS STORY, BY THE WAY.

ROGER: I'M SO GLAD THAT IS FAKE NEWS.

SO, HOW DO WE DEAL WITH IT?

WE ARE WHERE WE ARE.

IS IT JUST THE PUBLIC FINALLY RISING UP AND SAYING WE ARE TIRED OF THIS?

IN MAL'S PROFESSION, THERE ARE STANDARDS OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT FOR WHAT GOES INTO A NEWS STORY AND WHAT DOESN'T.

THERE IS NONE OF THAT IN THE -- ON THE INTERNET WITH ANYBODY BEING ABLE TO POST ANYTHING.

WE ARE IN A MESS.

HOW DO WE TRY NOW TO FIX IT?

>> WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT THE ALGORITHMS THAT FEED YOU INFORMATION THAT IS ALREADY CONSISTENT WITH WHERE YOU ARE AT, THE SORT OF BLINDERS WE GET.

I DON'T KNOW.

IT'S GOING TO BE REAL HARD.

MAL'S DISCUSSION OF THE EARLY-1800'S -- THANKFULLY, WE CAME OUT OF THE ELECTION OF 1800 INTO THE ERA OF GOOD FEELINGS AND MUCH OF THAT BEGAN TO FADE AWAY.% THERE WAS A PERIOD OF CALM, ALMOST LIKE WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR HERE, LET'S PULL BACK.

I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN IMAGINE THAT WILL HAPPEN.

IT'S SO DEEPLY CONNECTED TO PARTISANSHIP, WHICH HAS BECOME SO INCREDIBLY POWERFUL IN OUR SYSTEM.

AND THERE'S THIS BUSINESS MODEL THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THE ALGORITHM PROCESS THAT FEEDS THESE INTERNET SITES WILL CHANGE OR THAT THE PARTISAN NEWS OUTLETS WILL SORT OF MOVED TO THE CENTER AT THE RISK OF LOSING SOME OF THEIR AUDIENCE.

I THINK THE SOLUTION IS TO DO THE BEST YOU CAN TO GET A BROAD PERSPECTIVE OF INFORMATION AND TO FUND PUBLIC RADIO AND PUBLIC TELEVISION.

HANNAH: NOW, CAN THIS GENIE BE PUT BACK IN THE BOTTLE?

DO YOU HAVE ANY HOPE IN THE FUTURE FOR THE MEDIA?

>> THE MOST POWERFUL PART OF THE MEDIA IS BROADCAST.

WITH THE FCC AND THE CONGRESS, THROUGH A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT ACTS AND ACTIONS BY THE FCC, HAVE ALLOWED THESE CONGLOMERATIONS TO OCCUR.

WE DON'T HAVE A SINGLE TELEVISION STATION IN THE STATE OF MAINE OWNED BY A MAINER RIGHT NOW.

VERY FEW RADIO STATIONS ARE ACTUALLY OWNED BY A MEANER -- MAINER.

THEY ARE OWNED BY THESE CONGLOMERATES WHO ARE LOOKING TO THEIR CORPORATE BOTTOM LINE TO MAKE THEIR MONEY.

I'M NOT FAULTING THEM FOR THAT.

THAT'S PART OF THE GREAT PROCESS.

BUT BECAUSE OF THIS ALLOWING OF AN EXPANSION WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE CONGLOMERATION OF TELEVISION THAT WILL BE IN 75% OF THE TELEVISION MARKETS, ONE OWNER, THAT HAS LED TO LESS LOCAL INPUT.

IT USED TO BE THAT IF ROGER WAS CONCERNED ABOUT A STORY THAT WAS BEING DONE ON A LOCAL RADIO STATION, HE KNEW THE OWNER.

HE'D CALL UP AND SAY, WHAT ARE YOU REPORTING?

THAT'S NOT REALLY WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND THEY WOULD BE RESPONSIVE AND WOULD CHECK INTO IT AND TRY TO FIND OUT.

THAT WHOLE THING IS GONE.

THE LOCAL CONNECTION IS NOT THERE IN COMMERCIAL BROADCASTING ANYMORE.

I WAS IN COMMERCIAL BROADCASTING FOR A LONG TIME.

YOU USED TO BE ABLE TO REALLY COMMUNICATE WITH THE PUBLIC AND GET FEEDBACK WHEN YOU WERE WORKING ON A STORY, AND NOW IT HAS BECOME MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SO POLARIZED.

ROGER: THE TIME HAS FLOWN BY.

WE HAVE TO STOP THERE.

I THINK THERE IS ONE THING WE WOULD AGREE ON.

EVERYBODY OUGHT TO SEND IN THEIR PLEDGE TO MAINE PUBLIC SO THAT WE WILL STAY ON THE AIR.

GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HANNAH AND I WILL BE RIGHT BACK.

♪ HANNAH: WELCOME BACK.

GREAT CONVERSATION BETWEEN MAL AND DAN, OBVIOUSLY BOTH BRINGING A LOT OF HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY HELPFUL.

I THINK A LOT OF US ARE JUST SEEN THIS IN THE LIGHT OF THE LAST COUPLE YEARS AND SOME PRETTY RAPID CHANGE.

ROGER: THE LOSS OF THE DAILY NEWSPAPER, THE LOSS OF THE TRUSTED NEWS SOURCE, WALTER CRONKITE -- WE ARE IN A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD.

PARTICULARLY, THE ATTACKS BY THE PRESIDENT, AGAIN, AS YOU SAID, CALLING THE PRESS THE ENEMY.

NOT JUST WORRISOME, BUT REALLY FRIGHTENING, I THINK.

THERE ARE OVERTONES OF WHAT WE SAW IN EUROPE IN THE 1930'S, FOR INSTANCE.

FIRST THING YOU DO IF YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE IS TO TAKE AWAY THE POWER OF THE PRESS.

IT'S A TOUGH TIME.

HANNAH: AND THAT'S EXACTED WHAT U.S.

SENATOR JEFF FLAKE JUST SAID IN HIS SPEECH -- EXACTLY WHAT U.S.

SENATOR JEFF FLAKE JUST SAID IN HIS SPEECH.

IT' SEEMS LIKE A FAIRLY DIRE TIME.

WHEN WE LOSE SOME AGREEMENT ON THE FACTS, IT'S HARD TO GOVERN.

IT IS HARD AT THE STATEHOUSE, CERTAINLY HARD IN THE CONGRESS, AND IT CERTAINLY IS POLARIZING OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

ROGER: WHO DO YOU LOOK TO FOR A TRUSTED SOURCE OF NEWS?

YOU CAN STILL LOOK TO NEWSPAPERS, BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR BUSINESS IS NOT DOING TERRIBLY WELL -- THEIR BUSINESSES NOT DOING TABLET WELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING -- NOT DOING TERRIBLY WELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING IS NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE.

CABLE NEWS TV STATIONS SEEM TO BE GRAVITATING TO THE LEFT AND RIGHT, BUT NOT A WHOLE LOT IN THE MIDDLE.

HANNAH: A HUGE AMOUNT OF CHANGE IN A SHORT TIME.

THE QUESTION IS, WHAT WILL THE NEXT CHANGE BEING AND WILL IT BE BETTER OR WORSE?

WE COULD TALK ABOUT THIS FOR A WHILE, BUT WE ARE GOING TO LET OUR FRIEND GARY CROCKER HAVE THE LAST WORD.

GARY: I STEPPED IN THE TRAILER LAST WEEK AND WAS CONFRONTED BY A BLIZZARD OF -- I DID MY BEST TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE WAS ALL WORKED OUT ABOUT -- UP ABOUT.

THEN I HEARD THE WORDS "FREE PRESS."

SO I JUMPED IN MY TRUCK AND DROVE TO THE GYM AND BORROWED SOME FREE WEIGHTS SO SHE COULD DO SOME FREE PRESSES AT HOME IN A JUDGMENT-FREE ZONE.

SHE NEEDED MORE ARM STRENGTH IN ORDER TO GET THE FULL BENEFIT FROM THE NEW SNOW SHOVEL I BOUGHT FOR HER -- OUR ANNIVERSARY.

I GET BACK WITH THE WEIGHTS.

MOTHER THREW A FIT.

I ACTUALLY DROPPED A 20-POUND WEIGHT ON FLUFFY'S TAIL, WHICH SET THE CAT OFF LIKE A BOTTLE ROCKET INSIDE OUR TRAILER.

IT TOOK ME AN MOTHER 10 MINUTES TO CALM HER DOWN.

LUCKILY, THERE WAS NO PERMANENT DAMAGE TO THE CAT'S TAIL, BUT MOTHER STILL GAVE ME THE "YOU'VE GOT TO BE MORE CAREFUL AROUND FLUFFY" LECTURE, WHICH IS THE FOURTH TIME THIS WEEK.

BUT THIS TIME I'M PRETTY SURE I GOT IT.

AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT I TOLD MOTHER, WHICH IS WHEN SHE SHIFTED GEARS AND ASKED ME WHY I BROUGHT ALL THOSE WEIGHTS INTO THE TRAILER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

WELL, I SAID, I HEARD YOU SAY WE NEEDED A FREE PRESS AND ASSUMED YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT FREE WEIGHTS FOR EXERCISE.

WHAT?

ARE YOU DEAF?

I SAID WE NEED TO EXERCISE A FREE PRESS OR THE COUNTRY IS IN TROUBLE.

IF THE FOURTH ESTATE IS SILENCED, OUR ACCESS TO INFORMATION WILL BE LIMITED, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO GET.

WHEN WE REFER TO THE SEPARATION OF POWERS IN GOVERNMENT, IN THE LEGISLATIVE, EXECUTIVE, AND JUDICIARY, THE FOURTH ESTATE STANDS OUT AS A CRITICAL ELEMENT IN THE SUCCESS OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

SO, WHEN YOU HEAR SOMEONE SAY WE NEED -- WE WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT THE PRESS, DON'T YOU LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT.

NOT FOR A SECOND.

THAT, ACCORDING TO MOTHER, IS THE LAST WORD, AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE PROVERBIAL BANK.

>> "THE MAINE EVENT" IS BROUGHT TO YOU IN PART BY THE PUFFIN BOAT COMPANY, BUILDING BOATS WITH A PURPOSE.

AND BY THE MAINE CREDIT UNION.

MAINE'S CREDIT UNIONS, PROVIDING 170 PLUS BRANCHES IN MAINE AND SERVING OVER 680,000 MEMBERS STATEWIDE.

WE ARE COMMITTED TO PUTTING MONEY TO WORK LOCALLY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THEY BELIEVE IT WORKS BEST.

MAINECREDITUNIONS.ORG.

MAINE'S CREDIT UNIONS MOBILE , FRIENDLY AND MEMBER OWNED.

[CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

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