good evening and welcome to this special mental health edition of Dr on call I'm Dina clba a psychotherapist and founder of Insight Counseling of duth and Virginia and I will be your host for tonight's program on Grief and loss this is the second of four mental health episodes that will be airing this season of drors on call our program is here to answer your questions about mental health issues that may affect you your family or friends this week's show has been pre-recorded so we won't be accepting calls or emails our expert guests are Dr Deb suoth a licensed clinical social worker and owner of CA Center for grief and loss coral powitz a licensed clinical social worker and owner of Monarch counseling service and Bridget Benson is a therapist at Insight Counseling currently on sabatical we're so pleased to have you all here now let's begin with a discussion of grief and loss it is such an honor um to be with you this evening I just have such um I admire and respect your work in the community and it means a lot to me that you that you would be here so I'm excited to share this space with you and with this very special topic um we're going to just jump right in to some discussion so I'm can't help but just coming off of Thanksgiving um and heading into the Christmas holiday I know from practice and experienc that grief symptoms and experiences can exacerbate during this time um Deb could you share a little about what might be happening for people when they're experiencing this and and why this time of year and maybe other anniversaries might be particularly hard well as we know many people gather with families and and they have everyone around them and all of a sudden there is an empty chair and so um it's a very lonely time for many people as uh the Santa Clauses and the Christmas trees and everything is out there advertising for this family get together and so there's just this huge yearning for your loved one during this time so people feel very lost in a lot of ways and struggle with trying to normalize a holiday trying to figure out how to do this and so people kind of recommend there's lots out there written on what to do about you know during the holidays and um some things ours do something completely different and um and when you have a lot of family members Gathering Together your loved one might not be mentioned uh which can be really difficult um and some families have a lot of alcohol involved which could also exacerbate those holidays as well so just the coming up to those days um is challenging and for many clients it starts for many of us not all you know we're not we're all clients in so many respects but before you know um Halloween comes is you know we go back in time with our own children and uh the Christmas trees come out at the various stores and so it's a constant reminder um and so that I idea of getting getting through is what people strive for of getting through or bypassing it and so that becomes a an item as well so thank you yeah well I think there's a you know it's happy this merry this joyfulness it's there's an expectation and seems as though the whole world is in this Wonderland and here we are um still trying to sort of get ourselves out of the mud um and then again having this expectation that we'll be there we'll have a normal you know and again normal is no longer um during the holidays and so how do you do that um that's the best way to that I know of anyway is just to start communicating with people and letting them know this is going to be a different holiday or we're going to do this instead or you know some way of communicating with the family or the people closest to you you know and if all else fails it's come late and leave early yes yes yes I think of the skill of you know that cope ahead that skill of what do what do I do so you drive and have an out and um if you're choosing to go to a relative's home um I think that's important yeah I think it also really depends on where you are are in your grief journey and if your grief is very new and very raw um your expectations of what you will be able to do for this holiday season should be very very very low um sometimes it's just getting through at that stage of grief getting through the minute and breathing through it and so um it is a time where people in grief especially new grief but all grief have to be um extremely good at self-care and have compassion for themselves and um skip it if that feels right um do something different if that feels right and eventually I think as you get further in your grief um there is a way to integrate grief and celebration so it doesn't have to be either or um and you know some ideas are going around the table and having everybody share a fun memory of your person who is no longer physically at the table um you know lots of different ideas but I think for the holidays and almost really every um special day in grief whether it's a birthday or an anniversary the joy and the sorrow can exist side by side yes yes thank you all of you and Deb I like when you met mentioned you know and sometimes if the person who we're missing isn't mentioned would you there there was a question about kind of saying the person's name and so on so would you recommend that um is it good to bring up like I I like what Bridget said about going around the table is it I guess is there a way of doing that bringing it up rather than not saying anything well it's a great question part of it is is I think depends where you're celebrating so so if you're if it's in your own home it may be very different than if it's in someone else's home so I think that makes a difference um I I'll speak for myself um after I lost my son we we put out his Christmas stocking and his name's David and so his Christmas stocking is always out um during the holidays but I think that's really hard because um of other people's discomfort is what a griver navigates is and so that becomes the challenge during the holidays um and if there's children involved all of the those factors so I think it depends if you feel safe in your environment safe as in I don't mean physically safe but if you feel emotionally safe in that environment um I think sure then you know uh you bring up a memory or you mention something and then you I I love I heard a term one time um the the words of safe and welcoming so we can be in an environment and we say their name David and how it's received we find out H is it welcomed and we quickly learn in grief um as we navigate grief especially during the holidays well for that matter any family gathering any Gathering that's more than two people uh becomes a challenge that begin to navigate with that thank you for sharing that I just wanted to add on to that um I think that there sometimes is a hesitancy on people to bring up the name because there might be a fear that they are going to sort of you seem like you're having a good day and they're going to remind you or make you sad and you're going to cry and um if you do cry that's a good thing crying is okay and um every time you you cry it releases something and so um I think we're getting better in our culture at acknowledging death and talking about it but historically there was a reluctance to bring it up because it's maybe easier just not to yeah yeah I think a lot of um especially mom m s feel a sense of their child is forgotten if the name isn't brought up in again in certain in certain safe places um so it's always that balancing of knowing who you're with and how they feel and sometimes we as griever have to put it out there first unfortunately to make other people comfortable because we still as far as we've gotten there's still a discomfort in our culture with grieving people and grief in general um and yet we're all there or have been there or will be there yes yes thank you um Bridget how about can reaching out to someone you know who has experienced a recent loss help you in the grieving process I think that's an amazing idea Dia um one of the things about the grief experience is that is not something that we're supposed to experience alone and and um it can feel extremely lonely I have the experience of losing my daughter Sophia to a tragic car accident and um in the beginning you really have a hard time even imagining that you can go on it's the grief is so unbearable and the idea of ever being happy again seems an impossibility and for me um during that time I was so lucky to have access to other mothers who had lost their children and were ahead ahead of in their journey and at first what they were just able to offer me is just hope that here they are going on somehow and thriving even in many cases and it just gives you hope that it's possible um they know better than anyone else what you're going through as much as your friends and your family um we had wonderful support of our friends and family but it was still different than people who had walked the road in front of me and just knew there is something about not feeling alone that reaching out to somebody else who's gone through it gives you helpful thank you Coral or Deb want to share anything I I I will just add um I have for 11 years uh facilitated a suicide bement support group and that is where to Echo um what Bridget is saying is in the in this support group people gather because it offers hope uh somebody in not the same shoes but very similar shoes and we gather together and it's suicide loss which is a trauma loss and that idea of hearing from another um someone who's maybe lost a spouse a child a sibling um we can sit there together and and offer a different type of support uh that that family or other family is unable to and it offers reassurance Hope connectiveness Community and Community a huge part so uh that's been the Hope part is what really resonates with me regarding that thank you Coral can journaling being an effective way of expressing your grief during the healing process I feel very strongly that it can be not for everyone um but what it really I think offers most people is that you know that sense of being alone or being lonely um when you Journal if you're feeling that you can express yourself on those pages it's private to you things that you feel that you want to say um that you we just don't say things out loud all the time you know they're all here or here and to be able to put that on a piece of paper and see it there I think it also speaks really well to that Journey part because if you start journaling as soon as you are able to sit down and put pen to paper um you can see your own process playing out you can review it you can go back to it and while it it's often a journey that is two steps forward and three steps back the journaling part of it really helps us see it um see the changes that are occurring record it because uh grief especially the shock involved with grief will often um really we really struggle to remember right and to because we're just in that state our brain isn't functioning um because it's grieving and so sometimes to have that record too um is really helpful to look back on and see uh just how far you've come and what has changed throughout and just gives you a time to process a little bit more in that private quiet time again um I have had folks that have really found it helpful to journal letters to the person who has um passed and just that connection again the physical person isn't there but I can let you know what I did today how I felt today what happened today continued Bond yeah it keeps that continuing Bond exactly thank you we had if I just to add to Coral uh an idea that we entertained in our our support group that I had um um this past couple of weeks we talked about during Advent which is begins Friday December 1st in the in the Christian faith is beginning with a memory each day and writing down a memory because people are somewhat lost on where do I begin and is does it have to be really formal do I have to have my penmanship my grammar all of those people all those pieces so we thought of you know just doing a memory a day and you could record it now with our iPhones we can record which is kind of cool record you could um handw write it you could even do artwork and draw something out especially if it's younger children that you could do a memory a day so that's my intention for this Friday you can hold me accountable to that now love it that because it gives a a place and then and and then those memories are with you yeah I love it um Deb is grieving and all of you is grieving and mourning the same thing oh I like that one gra it gra it um so grief is the internal process that happens when we lose something or someone that we love very deeply and are attached to so grief is just what happens it's usually very painful emotions um but it's internal and mourning is the external expression of that grief so in my view mourning is really what takes us on the road to Healing so um when and and there are so many different ways to mourn whenever we talk about the grief we're experiencing or the loved one we are um expressing our grief when we have ceremony we are expressing our grief um when we Journal we are mourning when we cry we are mourning when we do yoga or meditate or pray there are so many different ways to mourn um so I think the important thing is for people to figure out how do I for me what works for some people who just aren't journalers that might not be their path to morning but they do need to figure out what is my how do I get this griev out because the worst thing we can do with grief is hold it in shove it down numb it out you thank you um going back to Deb when you I just the your suicide support group is just beautiful and amazing and um I thought of something the qu one of the questions I wanted to pose because I feel very passionate about it is how words matter you know we talking about culture and and words matter and I had a um experience earlier this year where my 13-year-old niece called me there was a suicide attempt at her school and my sister said Brianna wants to talk to you and I got on the phone right away that day and the first thing that she asked me was Auntie Dena I remember that I shouldn't say committed suicide what is the word that I should use Deb can you speak to this um because I think that we need to talk about this more cuz I don't think that a lot of people are aware so the the terms have shifted so we use terms such as died by Suicide um we don't even say successful suicide because there's nothing successful about that people will say completed um however died by Suicide seems to be the one that people easily gravitate to um and the the rationale being is because kit determines that there was a crime and so it suggests that there was a crime involved and so we've you know really focusing on how words matter in particular because suicide is a stigmatized loss and that adds it perpetuates um stigmatization so to speak and so really making the attempts to have changing our verbage in a society that continues to um um perpetuate stigma within mental health as it is um let alone s let alone suicide losses um and because of that um thinking of how families may not be quite as supported or feel quite as supported because of uh suicide and so language is even more important um so thank you for that yes thank you and speaking of language there was a question in here too about I heard the word disenfranchise l Coral do you know what um that is referring to and I believe well it's it's when there's an a loss occurs and there's a disenfranchise disenfranchisement is the right word but it's that disconnect of um oh I'll give you an example that might make it easier so you've div you you've divorced and your mother-in-law your you know ex-mother-in-law has died and you had a good close relationship with her but you're sort of culturally not allowed to be at the funeral or to you know why would you be mourning her you divorc them you know there's the the why question the Judgment of is this proper grief disenfranchised grief is you know pet grief is incredibly incredibly painful but yet for a lot of folks there's that sense of well it was just a dog um well if that dog with someone's lifetime companion that that's really tough to do but yet again it's a cultural thing um that we're often told we can't grief that that's not correct grief does that yeah anybody have anything to add to that that's how I see yeah the disenfranchised piece of it just that disconnect of the disconnect of not having the permission and I appreciate you mentioning pets I facilitate a pet loss group online monthly um through Insight that and that is definitely the theme of just feeling not heard or validated or respected over their grief it's not important just get another pet yeah it also makes me just think about um complicated grief and when anybody dies and you love them you experience grief and it's very painful and it's messy and chaotic but when somebody loses um somebody in a tragic and traumatic way um it's does feel different it's different a different feeling than um say when my daughter was 18 and was in an accident versus the grief that I went through when my grandparents passed and they were in their 80s and not to say that it grief is painful but um it also can be complicated and that kind of brief um can last longer can be more intense tense thank you thank you I know we're running low on time and I definitely wanted to mention our favorite resources but one question too for viewers who want to reach out to someone grieving what are the dos and don'ts so I want you all to weigh in on this if we can Dr dab the dos and don'ts what are some well Do's is reach out whether it's through a card phone call text message nowl a hot dish um uh something that says um I care um don't uh don't use euphan isms um platitudes you know God needed another Angel um and those are hurtful um appreciate the family you have all of those pieces that minimize a loss uh or that suggest that this won't last long for you and so I think the don'ts are the things that sting and so focus on do and um look up I had a friend of mine after after my my significant loss who um when my son died who Googled what not to say and I think that was beautiful so yeah yeah I think some and sometimes the reaching out is especially I was thinking about that first year when you're just like not ready um that sometimes a a a pot of flowers on the on the front porch and we slip away maybe that's the Norwegian in me I'm not sure but that whole sense of just sort of um giving them time and space but also recognizing I'm here I recognize what you're going through but I'm not going to make you work um when you're already struggling to get through this day um by being so social with me I think that's another really good way to to connect with people just a moment Bridget anything you'd want to share I would just say do realize that um in the Raw stages of grief um love and support is what carries people and so just find a way to show your love and support and um great and don't say what can I do um call me if you need anything cuz they will never call that's it a favorite resource real quick and I see Deb has some and I'm thinking of I did grieving is loving y grieving is loving Dr Joan cator excellent author I actually am really strongly committed to an organization called Healing Hearts connection which is a family grief Camp an overnight camp that just um brings people together great Bridget I'm going to say helping parents heal which is an online organization and it is for briefed parents and it helps them um explore their mystical experiences together thank you thank you I want to thank our panelists Dr Deb saroth coral papoz and Bridget Benson for their time and expertise doctors on call will be off the next two Thursdays for the holidays please join Dr Peter nen for our show on January 4th 2024 for a program on cancer prevention diagnosis and treatment I'm Dina claya from all the guests and crew here at PBS north thank you for watching good night