- Welcome to Hampton Roads Week.

I'm Chris Dicken.

Among the most complicated and emotional issues being debated in the current election campaigns is rising crime in the state and what to do about it.

This week, we'll consider some of the campaign rhetoric on crime and its relationship to reality.

- I'm Rebecca Feaster.

The classrooms at Hampton Roads School bring together a rich variety of children from diverse racial and social backgrounds, but effectively educating those children in a multicultural environment is one of the greatest problems educators face.

This week, we talk to two have taken up that challenge.

- When we vote next Tuesday, a lot of us will be looking over our shoulders at the rising crime and violence in our society and choosing candidates who we think can best bring it under control.

The choices seem to be very clear between those who would or would not try to abolish parole and those who have opposite views about gun control.

There's a lot of campaign rhetoric around these issues, and we're going to try to hold it up to the light of reason with Glen Allen Scott, who's an associate editor of the Virginian Pilot, Ledger Star.

He's been paying special attention to this issue.

And Felicia Mason, who's an associate editor of the Daily Press, responsible for crime reporting.

Glen, let me, let me ask you, the Republicans, Alan Ferris and Gilmore say we need to abolish parole.

A majority of the population when polled on this seems to agree three quarters of the violent crimes in the state are committed by repeat offenders.

So if we keep them in prison longer by denying parole, they'll have less chance to commit, to commit crime again.

Seems like a logical proposition, doesn't it?

- Oh, it's obvious on its face and it's true.

But anyone who says that this sort of measure will reduce crime rates is over promising.

What it does do is take bad people off the streets and leaves them off the streets for a long time, and that is a positive good.

But when you talk about reducing the level of violence, you have to realize that the forces that are creating so, giving rise to so many criminals and such violent criminals in that are extremely complex.

They have to do with the increasing urbanization of our society.

The demise, the wholesale wiping out of hundreds of thousands of blue collar jobs.

Now we're beginning to wipe out hundreds of thousands of white collar jobs, and we'll see how that plays out.

Wiping out blue collar jobs brought us over time, a rising level of violence with terror in the streets.

The reason crime is such a strong issue.

You've also got the drug business that figures into this.

You've got the proliferation of, of guns that figures into this.

You've got the poor quality of many inner, inner city schools that figures into this.

All this helps lack of jobs, poor education, too many guns, too many drugs, urbanization, mobility, and the media.

All these things help create the terrible climate we've got now.

- But if it helped just a little bit, a violent crime is a very fearful proposition for a lot of people.

If it helped just a little bit to keep people in prison longer, wouldn't it be worth doing?

I'm - All for it.

The it does help a little bit.

What you can do is make gains at the margins.

This is also the argument for gun control.

Guns should be regulated in the ways that automobiles own for the same reason.

To bring down the number of homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings with a regulation, a, a regulatory web of that places heavy responsibilities by manufacturers, gun dealers, and gun owners.

- All right.

We're getting ahead of ourselves here.

Felicia Mason, you've been paying attention to crime where it occurs at the at the level where it happens in the streets.

What is the problem out there?

Glen just mentioned a whole bunch of things and we all sort of know why crime is happening, but what's the problem?

Why is this going on?

- One of the problems, one of the major problems that the, is that the people who are committing these violent acts have no value of life, have no concern for fellow man, and maybe that's a utopic type of response, but using the five, five day waiting period as an example for guns, we had a teacher, a middle school teacher who was killed in March on the peninsula.

The person who eventually pleaded guilty for that bought the gun three days before the event.

Would that woman still be alive today if, if there was a five day waiting period?

Maybe, maybe not.

But how, in, in what manner would, would violating, would keeping people in prison longer change that maybe to - Some degree.

Do you, do you think from what you've seen of crime, let's say on the peninsula, which is your beat, that those who, most of those who committed even make any kind of a connection or even thinking of prison terms or whether there is parole or how long prison terms are?

- Yes.

They think about that when we can have defendants stand before a judge and a judge says, and this has happened, a judge says, "Do you understand the sentence that you've just received?"

And the defendant will say, "Yes, I'll serve one sixth of my time or one fifth of my time."

They know, they know exactly that they won't be in jail a very long time.

I don't know if they're running around calculating, I'll get 20 years for this and I'll serve one fifth.

I doubt if it's, if it's, if it is if it's to that level.

But yes, they're aware, they're aware that, that jail is there.

So, - So you think that the argument that's coming mostly from the Republican side that if, if we increase the, our intolerance for crime society by telling people and criminals and all of us in general that if you do the crime, you're really going to do the time will have an effect on reducing this crime?

- Probably not.

Probably - Not.

Well, it, it's impossible to prove that it, that it will bring a crime down.

What you can say is that in places like California and Florida, where they have had truth in sentencing, which is a very appealing idea the crime rates still continue to go up is, is the point.

Would they have gone up faster or slower?

That's impossible to know.

One thing that happens is they have to let out criminals in wholesale lots at certain times because the federal judges say you cannot keep this many criminals in this little space, which brings up the great thing.

You have to pay for prisons.

And nobody ever says what the price is going to be, and they should.

I mean, whatever a politician says, "I'm going to lock them all up and throw away the key," which is one approach to crime control.

You say, "All right, what's it going to cost me?

I'm happy to pay.

Here's my checkbook.

How much is it going to be?"

You ne - they never tell you what the price is going to be.

- Well, let's talk about that because there are figures floating all over the place in this current campaign ranging from $650 million to abolish parole by the year 2000 to three billion dollars if we do the same kind of thing.

How can we even go about figuring this cost?

- Where, where are all those prisons going to go right now when we have communities trying to, just trying to get together to put regional jails up?

One where all those - When they're succeeding at that right.

Right.

Where are all those prisons going to go?

When you fact, when people factor in that NIMBY attitude, not in my backyard.

Yes, they want to put all, all the criminals in jail and leave them there forever, but no one's willing to pay for it.

It will come through, I believe one of the candidates says will pay through 600 million in bond issues.

How, where, where is the money really going to come, come from to do this?

I mean, with the, and with the other the other question, I think it may make a difference with juveniles.

When juveniles learn that the word gets out, if I do this, yes, I'm going to jail.

When the word gets out with them, it could make a difference.

But it's not going to, it won't make a difference overnight, just like it hasn't done in states with truth and - Sentencing.

The state secretary of, of public safety, who's a Democrat says that the Republican request for the abolition of parole would require the building of 20 new prisons by I think the year 2000 had a cost of $942 million.

That's just to build the prisons.

And then we're talking anywhere between 17 and $25,000 a year to maintain someone in prison.

- Well, well, Virginia has let's see if I've got these figures correct.

It has about 40, has 43 prisons penal facilities.

That is about 20 maximum and medium sized prisons, if I recall correctly.

And 20, what they used to call stick camps, field camps.

They had more field camps, but the kinds of prisoners who are coming in are so dangerous that you cannot keep them in field camps anymore.

You've got to have a medium or, or maximum security prison.

Well, you're talking about 50 million dollars per prison.

You're talking about what it would cost to send a child to Harvard.

In fact, in fact, I think it may be cheaper to send a, no, a child to Harvard.

To, to keep a pris - a prison locked up in a, in a maximum or a medium security prison.

A big difference incidentally between the medium and the maximum.

I think about $35,000 a year on a maximum.

- Have you heard anybody in these campaigns talking about what actually happens in the prisons?

Last year during the general assembly, there was an effort to get a minimal amount of money for programs for sex offenders and substance abuse and education.

And it just, not much came out of that.

- Well that - There's been some talk, but you go ahead.

- No, what?

- Well, the question is, are, are the, are the politicians talking about what should happen in the prisons once we get people in these prisons?

Or are they talking only about building the prisons?

- Building the prison seems to be the bottom line.

And what happens after that?

I - - No, well, the Republicans have talked about, for example, boosting the manufacturing component.

George Allen would boost the manufacturing component in the prisons.

About 29 million dollars a year is, is generated now by the manufacturing operation.

The people make license plates.

The inmates make license plates and furniture for the state and things like that.

And an expansion of that program, which is California has and sounds like a good program, good thing to do no matter who's in Richmond and occupies the space.

The important thing would be to have programs that address the ills the reason some of these people have gotten in many of them in the first place.

About 70 or 80% are drug abusers or alcohol abusers.

Even before drugs came on the scene, alcohol abuse was a big fact in prisons.

- So are you advocating putting that alter, putting that money back in the beginning at middle school level and elementary school level in programs like Just Say No and their - - Well, absolutely.

You need to expand the educational anti drug component.

Prevention is always cheaper than having to clean up afterwards.

- Let me ask you that question, Felicia, back where the crime is occurring.

Do you think that if more attention were spent back in the schools and in the neighborhoods, would that have an effect on it or not?

Is that just - Wishful thinking?

I think so.

Glen started out identifying some of the some of the things that are wrong and the root causes of crime.

If we have if we have children who are trained to know right from wrong, to know that drugs will do terrible things to you and to your friends and to your family, if those types of things are, or if they learn those types of things at the bottom line, it'll make a difference in the outcome.

Their officers in schools and the the various programs that are out there.

- Do you, do you see any of the candidates talking much about that kind of thing?

Not much, - No.

There's a, there's an experiment going on at the Bowling Park Elementary School here in- In Norfolk.

In Norfolk that is very promising involving parents and children and teachers in a program that seems to result in effective learning.

And the, and the earlier you do this, the better.

But you know, what is lacking in all discussions of crimes is his, is the historical perspective.

In, in 17th, well, 18th and 19th century London, crime was a dreadful problem.

You had all the ills that you now have in the American inner cities.

You had drunkenness.

There were, oh, I don't know, 13,000 gen houses in London.

These places were like crack houses, vicious, terrible places, illegitimacy, murder robberies, thievings on.

The British shipped a lot of them to America, even more to Australia.

But that didn't utterly solve its problem because these were people without jobs.

They'd been forced from farms into cities.

That's what happened in America.

We've back in the 30s and 40s.

And they went to Detroit and the steel mills and they had good jobs.

And then those jobs began to disappear and you began to get the welfare mother and three generations of welfare and men walking off.

Because men without jobs are not good candidates for husbands.

- Which is a whole nother problem and, and a whole nother discussion.

I've just got a couple minutes left.

Guns.

Democrats seem to be saying, let's do everything we can to make gun, legally make guns less available guns and assault weapons.

Republicans seem to be saying, it doesn't make much difference what you do legally.

Those who are going to use guns in bad ways are going to get the guns anyhow.

- Both sides, both sides are true.

The people who are going to take a Tech nine and, and shoot up a convenience store or rob a bank, they're going to get that gun anyway.

But the people who would do something spur of the moment, you know, let's give them five days to cool off from that argument with the wife or with the next door neighbor over something silly so that we can stop some of, some of the, some of the violence.

It won't stop all of it, but a five day waiting period at least gives people time for cooler heads to prevail.

- No, but let's take that tech nine.

That tech nine should not be stolen on the civilian market - Never.

Except to these weapons that carry 50 rounds before you have to reload.

The only reason they're sold is because the manufacturers with that buddy, the gun lobby which they help underwrite, are able to keep those things flowing onto the market.

Nobody much would get them if the only people that had them were the army and the legitimate sporting clubs, you see?

They just funnel out cheap firearms, more expensive firearms, and gun dealers all over the place.

There's several hundred thousand gun dealers in America.

- We need to funnel out of this discussion.

I want to thank you both Glenell and Scott and Felicia Mason.

Thank you.

Now, when we come back, the topic is cultural diversity in our classrooms.

Is it a problem or an opportunity?

We'll talk with two local educators who've been working to get children with differences to learn effectively together.

- This week in Norfolk, a conference at Norfolk State University brought together a diverse group of educators who deal with a diverse group of students in our public schools.

Multiculturalism, how kids from different and social, racial and economic backgrounds can be educated together is one of the current controversies in education.

Some say kids are most effectively educated in terms of the background from which they come.

Others say that makes no sense when we'll all have to grow up and live together in a homogeneous society.

As part of our continuing look at the class of 2000, we've invited two who have just attended the Norfolk State Conference on diversity in the classroom to join us.

They are Barbara Torger, who's the principal of Newtown Road Elementary School, and Chris Meisel of the Berkeley Campus Stella Early Childhood Center.

How are you doing today?

- Fine.

- Fine.

You both just came from the conference.

And what kinds of problems or challenges are presented in a classroom where you have so much multiculturalism?

Tell me about it.

Barbara?

- I think probably the, the hardest part is trying to figure out how to blend without overemphasizing.

So it's, it's obvious to the children that we're trying to help so much to help them grow up into a society and be contributing citizens without focusing on their differences.

We really want to talk about people being more liked than different, but at the same time, acknowledging their, their culture.

And so we're working hard in our building to try not to have a celebration once a month, you know, for each of the cultures, but rather to blend it in so that we have, we have a curriculum that reflects multiple cultures and perspectives.

So instead of studying each of the cultures separately, you study an event, but coming from multiple perspectives and that you try to understand what's happened in our country's history with multiple perspectives.

And I think that's the key.

- What about you, Chris?

- I agree we shouldn't focus on differences.

I think we should focus on strengths.

At our school we have 180 African American three and four year old children.

I believe strongly in, in talking about positive role models, both from the past and the present.

And we do that each month at the Early Childhood Center, but we also do a multicultural approach.

We, we talk about Native Americans, we talk about Asian Americans because we feel that, that we are in a melting pot and we need to include everybody and focus on their strengths.

- So do you think that those special events like African Heritage Month and Pacific Asian Month, you think those are destructive or helpful with your educating process?

I - Think it should be done instead of a one month out of the year, why not 12 months out of the year, you know?

African Americans have made significant contributions and they need to be highlighted each month.

And, and so as Chinese Americans and and Native Americans, I think they need to be highlighted also.

- It seems to me that the children probably get a really mixed message.

For example, Newtown Road has 66% African American.

And yet we still use the term minority.

And yet they are the majority.

And so in one, one month out of the year, we're expected to celebrate the African Americans, but yet we don't have a Caucasian month because it is, you know, the school is set up as a, as a white culture.

And so it, there's a little mixed message in there.

So what we're trying to do is create a year long curriculum that celebrates all cultures all the time.

- Now, you're both from local school systems and you're dealing with a variety of different students.

How are you able to successfully blend that?

You talk about the fact you want to celebrate all year long.

How can you blend that and make sure that everybody feels that they're part of the celebration?

Chris, - Go ahead.

- Well, I, I think it's important to, to break it down to the level, you know, I'm dealing with preschool children, so everything has to be at a level that they can understand, has to be on hands-on level.

I don't get into abstract things.

Things that they can relate to, things in their immediate environment.

- We're of course talking about slightly older kids, even though they still are young and we need to do a lot of hands-on, which is what our curriculum is based on is a lot of hands-on learning and a lot of project learning.

And I think where we're able to be more successful now than we've ever been, even though we have a long way to go is because we do focus a lot on projects.

And when you have project learning kids are able to have a little bit of choice in the kind of things that, that they study, the kinds of things that they research and the kinds of things that they present to class.

So it's, it's not as narrow a focus and it's not presented through a textbook.

Rather, it's through the projects.

And while the project may have a main focus because it's what the, the whole class is studying, there is an awful lot of individual choice.

So they might choose to bring in their cultural experience as a result of that.

It's, it's, it's much broader now than it used to be.

Yeah.

- Barbara, you mentioned the fact that you felt you had a long way to go.

Where would you like to see your school?

Where would you like to see school systems in the Hampton Roads area 10 years from now, 15 years from now, in an ideal situation?

- Well, I, I think I described it in the very beginning.

I think right now we're at, it's sort of an uncomfortable, conspicuous place because we're trying, we're in transition.

And I think the hard part is finding that balance.

But I would hope that when it's all said and done and we've really studied and, and listened to the kids talk about some of their issues and concerns and, and the teachers talking about how hard it is for them, because I think it is hard when we're moving through from, from a place that we think was probably not where we should have been to a higher place.

That we have to listen to everybody, listen to their concerns, acknowledge those, and then move on.

I just hope we get to a place where we're, we have a real comfortable curriculum that everyone is comfortable delivering.

But that all children feel that they are not odd man out.

You know, that they are actually able to talk about their culture without having to apologize for it or to have to find a way for them to to get it openly into the curriculum or openly into the discussion without having to feel they have to hide a part of who they are.

- And Chris, you have a different perspective.

What are your goals?

- I like to see all school systems have preschool programs.

You know, children must come to school ready to learn, and I like to see the government investing money in, in our young children.

That's what I'd like to see.

- And - - Can I add something to that?

Absolutely.

Because I think there is another piece to what Chris is saying.

And that is, is that I think that we have to look outside of education for those costs.

We just celebrated the opening two weeks ago of a preschool program at Newtown, and Virginia Natural Gas is funding that.

And so I think private businesses who acknowledge that we've got a ways to go in education in terms of preparation programs, kids to have good stimulating experiences before they start, and Head Start can't get them all, is that we have to try to seek some funding from other places because if we wait forever, you know, the job is not going to get done.

- Now I have to ask you, Chris when you say that making the children ready to learn, what, when a child walks into kindergarten or to first grade, what would you like to see every child ready to do, prepared to?

- I think the most important thing about preschool education is building self-esteem.

We want children to come to school excited about learning and getting up every morning with a smile on the face.

We want children also to have the necessary skills, the fine motor skills, the, the gross motor skills necessary to be in school, the social skills, dealing with other children, dealing with conflicts being able to, to go through the day and be independent.

- And Barbara, are schools.

This is a question I have to ask.

Are schools being asked to do too much?

You, both of you sound like you have a lot on your platter.

And are they being asked to do too much?

- There was a time when I though that we were.

And, and I think sometimes if we, if we view everything as an add-on program, you know, we get to the point where we say, "Not one more thing."

What we've tried to do at Newtown is instead of adding it on, because there are not enough hours in the day, is that we've tried to blend it all in.

So we would take a new program they brought in and say, "Okay, how would this fit in so that as we're teaching all the other things, we can blend the important pieces and the big ideas of the program in."

So I guess, I guess I would say I care enough about the children that if you identify a need and we know that we're the only place that we can get it, that I think that we ought to be willing to at least make the effort to blend it into what we're already doing.

We are stressed.

We, we are overtaxed.

I think that, that burnout is a problem in education, but but we're, we're service-oriented people, that's why we got into the profession.

And we would like to have obvious help from outside.

And I think Chris mentioned to me earlier that, for example, they have social agencies that are working with them, and we're beginning to open up that door as well.

So I think that, you know, it takes a whole village to raise a child.

And I think that's where we are.

- I agree.

And I, and at the Early Childhood Center, our principal, Mrs.

Cheryl Bunch, divided our, our staff into teams or clusters.

We plan together, we evaluate, we assess together.

That way, not all the responsibilities on that single teacher.

We operate in teams.

And when, when several minds are together, we get a lot accomplished.

- And Barbara mentioned early the fact that that teachers have to feel comfortable presenting the material.

Are you facing those kinds of issues too?

- We feel very comfortable because we have we're, we're on teams and we get a part in the planning process.

We utilize the Comer model at the Early Childhood Center.

And at the Comer Model, teachers get to plan, they get to evaluate, they get to form committees and, and come up with ideas.

I think that's a great model.

- Wow.

Thank you both very much for being on Hamptons Week today.

Come back.

- Thank you.

- We've asked you to participate in our discussion here each week, and we provided a talk back line to take your questions and comments.

Our phone number is 440-6626.

We got a few calls after last week's discussion about improving the health of the Elizabeth River.

One of them asked what the cities are doing with raised utility rates for secondary treatment of water and sewage.

- Actually, the cities don't charge for secondary treatment of waste sewage.

That's the job of the Hampton Road Sanitation District.

Secondary treatment is the use of biological organisms to remove solid matter from wastewater before it is released back into the rivers and the bay.

It is mandated by the Clean Water Act of 1972, and nobody we talked to knew of a recent raise in rates to pay for it.

- It doesn't mean that water and sewage rates in general haven't been raised in recent years, but that's another program.

I'm Chris Dicken, and I thank you for being with us on this program.

- And I'm Rebecca Feaster.

We hope you'll be with us the next time on Hampton Roads Week.