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Hello, and thanks for joining us, for sustaining us here on Cox Public Media.

I'm David Nazar.

The issue of race in Americ can be complicated these days.

Some believe racism i very prevalent in our society.

Others sa racism is a thing of the past.

And then you have some Americans who simply voice even just a hint of being critical of racial justice policies, and they can be labeled a racist.

Why is that?

Is this fair?

Unfair?

We're going to discuss this dichotomy.

We're going to talk about the racism argument used in both politic and the media and other related racial issues, as well.

And joining me now to discuss the issue of race in America are the co-hosts of the very popular Healing Race podcast Todd Levinson and Andre Thomas.

Prior to their podcast, Todd Levinson designed various programs to help communities all over the US promote more solutions with less Partizan politics.

Todd also helped create local, state, and national workforce policies to help Americans find better career skills.

Andre Thomas, the other co-hosts of the Healing Rac podcast, is a tech enthusiast.

Andre has over 20 years of corporate experience in hops fields, product development and data analytics for various fortune 500 companies.

Thank you both so much for being here.

Great to be here David.

What's up David.

Hey Andre and Todd.

Thank you both.

Now, listen, I want to begin talk about your background, how you met each other and then what was the reason for personally beginning this new podcast, Healing Race?

Todd.

And then to Andre.

Yeah we met as roommates in college.

So we got randomly paired together and out of that grew and almost now 30 year close friendship.

Amid, you know, in 2020, amid the racial reckoning and backlash that happened at that time, I all of a sudden had the realization that we had never, ever in almost 25 years at that poin had a conversation about race.

And I had to wonder, is that part of the problem, or is it part of the solution?

And what I came to realiz is that if we don't have honest, open conversations about the views that we have, the experiences that we have, how can we navigate and solve the racial challenges that so divide, us and create so much conflict?

And so began our, you know, conversation.

We started recording conversations so that people could see what a conversation that is open, real, honest, constructive could look like.

And now we bring on guests, random people having conversations so that we show that anyone can have this conversation and have it be meaningful productive, and move us toward a better place.

Under the same question for you, your background, your relationship with Todd, and certainly why you began the Healing Race podcast?

Sure.

I met Todd here.

There I was a Texan, had been admitted to the university and never set on toe in the state of California.

And so that day, I literally showed up for orientation.

So it was all new to me.

And I walked into a room and saw this white man and thought to myself, well, this will be interesting.

I wonder how this will go.

And like Todd said, nearly 38 to 38, we're not that old.

30 years later, with his sparked and intellectual and very thriving friendship between the two of us.

And then he approached me and I want to say early 2021 to start this podcast, you know, to quote unquote, talk about race.

And my first reaction, is he for real?

And then my second reaction is, I really don't feel like getting into all of this.

I'm going through a pandemic, whatever.

But, you know, when you talk to yourself off the ledge and things in life, I said to myself, if he really wants to know an he's earnest in his intention, then I will, you know, share my feelings about race in Americ and how it has impacted my life.

Amazing.

Now, before we further our discussion, because we're going to delve into several issues, we took our cameras to the streets to follow the both of you around as you took your Healing Race podcasts on the road, so to speak.

All throughout Southern California.

And here is some of that video.

I.

Excuse me.

PBS is, is is featuring our show called Healing Race.

And we're all about kind of having an open, positive, constructive conversation about race in the country and.

How we improve this race.

Ken, would you woul you.

Be open to a conversation?

Yeah, but there's no such thing as race.

It was created.

It's a concept.

Was it was created.

Yeah.

Separate people as you think.

So do you think in the country people do treat each other based on.

The idea of race and.

How would you.

Well, politically, yes.

Okay.

Because it's, it's it's a divisional system is same thing with religion.

And I was originally raised colorblin and it took me a while to learn.

That's not a good thing.

Why do you think it's not a good thing?

Because the fact that I, as a Caucasian Asian woman, I can't be blind to the fact that if there's someon pulled over by a police officer, I should stop because I'm going to be a witness.

I can assume that if I'm colorblind, that that person is going to go through the same experience as me.

You just have to recognize the fact that we do have inequities.

That if you're colorblind, then you're just ignorant to the fact that there are things that other people go through that we don't and we really can't be an ally if we can't recognize that it's not just, you know, someone is a different skin color, it's someone who a different skin color.

So they have a whole life, different experiences than I would have.

You know.

Have you had conversations about race.

In your own life?

Well, I have, but for the most part, it's been an internal conversation on how to accept what's happening.

How to understand it.

Learn from it.

Yeah.

And then reflect that back out to the people that I interact with on a daily basis.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you had a chance to sit down in kind of a multi diverse, multiracial group and ask any question within your race or across.

Race, what what would be the.

Most burning questions, you knew you were going to be met by curiosity and.

Openness.

You know, rather than blowback, right?

What would you ask?

What would you want to know more about or discuss more.

Cultural differences or specifically?

Yeah, the family interactions within.

Okay.

Whether or not would you want to know more about how black into a black family interactions?

I believe I would, but also let's not discount the rest of the entire world.

Yeah, and learning how they do it and all of various cultures.

Yeah.

Totally.

Totally.

Yeah.

And what makes you curious about that?

Why do you think having the conversation about how we culturally interact would make a difference.

Would be meaningful for you?

I'll repost that.

Yeah.

And then having the opportunity to no only talk to the black culture and see how they feel.

Yeah.

See their side.

Yeah.

There's also the opportunity to talk to folks in Europe.

In the Middle East and Africa.

Yeah.

And find out how we ar affecting them and vice versa.

Yeah.

So it's a worldwide perspective and results in a great.

Yeah.

Because it's not a small piece of the pie and it's trying to present the whole time.

What are some of the internal conversation like you've had with yourself.

And maybe some of that tension that has been brought up.

This great question, because I think a lot of people ask that of themselves.

Yes.

Well, a lot of people fail to understand that, or they put it by the wayside because life can get in the way it does family, children, immediate needs.

Yes.

But I think once you have the opportunity to.

Take that big step back.

Yeah.

And take the time for yourself to try and learn, to try and understand and try to reflect back.

I do not like that.

We always have to have the race talk like it gets bothersome over time.

Okay.

You have your sons.

Have you had the race time with your son?

I have, especially my oldest son right now.

And we just moved to this area.

So.

More so.

Yes.

Gang talk and then, like, race.

What did you say in the race time?

The race talk is always treat people how you want to be treated.

Make sure that we're spreading love.

If someone is different, you know, it's okay.

Like, in differences are okay to your.

In your experience, have you do you have.

Conversations about race across across the racial divide?

Do you have white friends group of people.

Yeah.

And you guys talk.

About thi kind of stuff being your wife.

Why not?

And I'm like, this is no because this is my white friend.

And in 30 years, I was didn't even want to go there.

And I was like, fine, I'll.

I was.

In some like that would be first for the white community.

Don't understand the black women.

Oh, but like a lot of time they don't understand how many black kids, black mothers, black fathers have got killed over.

Yeah.

Simple thing or Trayvon Martin.

Yeah.

Few years ago, that was.

Yes.

You know, like you, I think that's why I'm so happy that this woman lives under the carpet.

What's what's this?

You know, how do you feel about race relations in the country right now?

And the ability to have open dialog about it, the need for it.

You know, your own.

Friend group, if you have white friends or black.

Ladies, I would say socially, I think that we can have some change.

Professionally, I think I learned a lot of people that struggle.

Really?

Yeah.

Like within my industry and definitely.

Okay.

What is your industry?

So I work in mechanical construction.

So the construction industry.

But which is obviously.

Well, and where I'm from i it's predominantly white males.

Right.

My older males.

Yes.

Yeah.

A little bit of a sensitive topic where I think back to excessive.

Yeah.

Is it a.

Conversation you tried to.

Have or is it.

Well, there's a so there's a big thing, I guess the big initiative.

You know, going on with T.I, right.

So a lot of those, like table talk.

I mean, it's not, I guess, personally, but, when we do come to the table and you see that we feel in.

But there are some people who are really open to like, okay, that was wasn't ignorant or uneducated thing.

Slavery.

So you have times when yo come to the table and you notice that there's discomfort, but then once you have the.

Conversation, does it, does i go to a, a constructive place?

Do you feel like everyone.

Or do they shut down eye opening?

I think.

It's cool.

I can be I think it can be both.

We can't be so quick to let the stereotypical judgments of what society has for us, Be that for us.

Okay?

Like, we can control our own minds and thoughts, and we can't always think tha other people think like us.

Yes.

So point yourself in other people's shoes.

Yeah, I didn't have the same experiences we had.

I'm saying that we didn't have the same experiences you had.

So I can't be mad for this guy just being more.

It was genuine.

Yeah, it was just curiosity.

It was in this office.

Speculation of what he thought.

So he can't.

I can't be mad at that.

I didn't say no.

You know, it was a sign of the asking or anything like that.

So again, that's where we can we can have we can be the answer.

This generation.

Talking about the vide we just played for our viewers, some of the people you interviewed, what your takeaways were, Andre.

And then to Todd.

You were in Venice Beach, which I had in my travels to California.

I never visited before.

It was a lovely place.

And one of the first participants, you know, really opened up, with about his experiences with race.

And I just expected the day to be kind of run of the mill sort of, you know, common arguments and things that I've heard about race over the years.

But he really started to unburden about his racial past in ways in which he had used racial epithets, the N-word specifically.

And then he was motivated to hug me.

And that, even as I sit here in this moment, was hugely validating.

And I and I told him I didn't, I don't, you know, don't need your acknowledgment, but thank you.

But then as I meditated on the day, I feel as though I did need the acknowledgment because he was a white person that saw me.

I endeavor in this exercise with Todd to to help people see how they are participants in this phenomenon that we call racism.

Right And black and white relations.

Even if you believe that it doesn't land at your doorstep, you are participating in it by virtue of being in this country.

And that doesn't necessarily mean you need to actively do something or all of a sudden become, you know, some super hyperactive ally.

But, you know, one of the simplest things a perso could do to help the situation and to start the conversation is just to acknowledge another person's emotional experience.

And that was absolutely amazing.

And my life is enriched by that day.

Just to build on what Andr said, you know, in terms of our our participation in the way that race relations unfolds in the country, you saw two individuals, one white, one black.

Talk about reflecting on the ways that we respon when something racial comes up.

And I think, at the very least, we can all take ownership for the way that we are responding.

And whether as one of the whit male, the white male, you know, said, whether we're getting the whole pie, the whole set of experiences, that's the biggest thing that has come out of Andre and my conversation our conversations with guests, is that people are complicated, they're nuanced, and you may know a very little sliver of their beliefs about politics, about race, about society, but you know so littl about the depth of who they are and what drove them and led them and shaped them to have those views.

And what we've learned through understanding both each other and our guest is that people are complicated.

We had a white male conservative from the northeast area.

He the question that he brought to our show is, you know, I grew up in poverty.

I built a small business.

And when I hear that I have white privilege, it is hard for me to stomach.

Are you telling me that I have white privilege now?

He also brought up questions about Dei, I, and the way that it's done now.

On the surface someone might have certain views of this individual, right, based on his objections.

But when you understand the background story and when they engage in real open conversation, you see one the the, the nuance behind his views and two, how much common ground there actually is when you get the whole story.

I hear this argument constantly.

Some people tell me we're talking about race too often, right?

In other words, is the word racist being overused?

Let's say, for example, in the media sphere with the identity politics, then there's also sort of this narrative.

And I know both of you have heard it.

If you support Donald Trump and MAGA or you believe in an America First agenda, you're all of a sudden automatically a racist if you believe in, let's say, for example, law and order, right?

More cops on the streets, you can be deemed a racist if you believe the migrant situatio at the border is out of control and you dare use the words illegal immigration, you're identified as racist.

Is this fear?

Andre?

Is the word racist overused in the media, in a political discussion?

And then we'll get Todd's take on that.

I recently heard the US poet laureate, Amanda Gorman, in, a poem cite that empathy is our emancipation and empathy is a 360 thing.

It's all the way around.

And for those who would try t indict others as you are racist, and this is a lesson I really had to learn, tha I was casually throwing around the word racist when a situation could have been racial, but I'm indicting a person's character and have a care with that word.

And I would say both.

When you have a care with your speech, you should also have a care with another person's experience and probably their pain.

And you should try to see life from their point of view.

You know, when you know, race is an experiential thing in the United States.

And I recently told someone, when you don't see the needl move in your lived experience, it could feel as though nothing is happening.

And then out of the frustration, you want to lash out.

And that's wher that kind of community comes in.

Both your, you know, for me, I'm black, I self-identify as black, my black community in helping me feel bolstered and supported in life.

And also as I like to use the term talking yourself off the ledge such that you don't hav white people who are your enemy.

All the time.

So taking a beat and stepping back even because we can't control the media and how things are produced in what's said.

However, we can contro our reaction and the framework by which we listen and analyze what's coming to us.

And just that proactiv participation in your own life.

Really can help you evaluate what is something that's really racially motivated and requires, proportionate response versus other things in life.

And that does happen.

And, you know, I know with your podcast, you talk to so many Americans who, as Andre and I just talked about, as I mentioned, you know, they're kind of exhausted hearing the word racism, racist over and over again.

They argue because I talk to them when I'm on my stories.

You talk to the people on your podcast.

You know, it's kind of a narrative.

Maybe for progressive politicians, you could say we're their identity politics argument, even those in the liberal media who are real progressives in they can often refer to anyon they disagree with as a racist, as just the truth.

However, with that said, also on your podcast, I know both of you taught Andre.

You talked to him.

Many Americans who insist, listen, we cannot ignore the fact there are overt acts of racism today.

Certainly they argue things like what would policing with housing, job opportunities, what have you.

So, Todd and then back to you, Andre.

Todd, how do you balance out kind of this narrative, which is sort of, very differen depending upon who you talk to.

I get concerne that we have to make a choice.

Either we run away from race conversations, or our race conversations are about yelling and calling each other out and I think my question would be why can't we just have better, more meaningful, more human conversations?

I bet most of the viewers out there watching this right now want to see that and might actually participate if given the right environment where they kne it was going to be productive.

We had an individual who we wasn't in the in the video that we watched, but he was in Newport and he didn't want to hav so much conversation about race.

He didn't want race to enter so many aspects of our conversations.

Now, when I shared with him the experience of one of our guests.

So the example here, being a woman, black woman, she grew up having gone to school that were mostly white, mixed, and mostly black.

She had a variety of different experiences.

And when she was in a mostly white school, she befriended and had a really stron relationship with a white male, and at some point took an interest in him and had the courage to ask him out on a date.

He got red in the face and said, oh, I, I can't data black girl.

Now imagine how that feels.

That same individual in Newport, when he heard that story had an audible, right.

It hit him in the gut.

And that's not to sa that every interaction is laced with some kind of racial bias, but these are real experiences that people have, and I think we can have those conversations in a productive manner both ways.

I sharing Andre asked me what was it like to grow up white?

That was his first questio to me, and I said, I don't know.

I never even say much by race.

And he said, Dre.

And I knew it was a luxury that I didn't have to think about it, right.

But through my sharing with him, he gets a little window into why it might be so hard for some people who never had to think through a racial len to understand what it's like to so often, regularly have to think through a racia lens and deal either themselves or through their network with those kinds of experiences.

That's not the only experience we heard, right.

We heard another black woman who talked about a great friend she had in her childhood who wanted to bring her to her church.

And her mom said, we can't bring a black person to our church, right?

These are not experience that are necessarily happening all the time, right?

But they do happen and they have an impact.

And I think it can be productive to talk about our experiences and what shaped our views of how we want to proceed with race relations.

So with that, said, Andre, how do you balance out the two narratives of the, of how people talk about well, there's no racism, right?

Which certainly that is not the case versus, there is a terrible amount of racism in the United States.

Well I balance it out by remembering that we're dealing with a lif and we're dealing with emotions, and we're dealing wit the lived experience of people, and so on both sides of the aisle, you know, as I quoted, you know, Amanda Gorman, our, you know, our, empathy is our emancipation.

So in order to, to free yourself and to not feel any sense of, you know, constraint, you're going to have to look at a person as a person.

And I've struggled with that in these conversations because it does feel deflatin to hear the white point of view.

When you feel as though you have been the that you are the aggrieved party, right?

But I have to sit in those emotions and sit in that discomfort, and I have encouraged other to just hear out the other side.

You know, this was not a part of Healing Race, but I was talking to, very lovely, lovely young woman who is white, and she was telling m how she feels a sense of tension when sometimes she is around black women.

She works in the restaurant industry and, you know, black people come, black women come you know, to celebrate things.

And she said, I've seen them as to be either served or fed and another place for my black coworkers.

And she was willing to lean into that right and lean into the discomfort of how that made her feel, but also recognize, well, that's something that black people have been going through you know, for a very long time.

And yes, it's happened to me.

But now this experience gives me some perspective.

So the way to circle bac to your question that I balance it is to look at the human being.

And that's hard when you're in your emotions.

I know that Los Angeles, when you I've been in your traffic like that's hard, but it's s much more rewarding when you do.

I have 60s for eac of you on this final question, there is one final argument that one could make that.

Forgive me for saying this, but maybe your podcast is just adding fuel to a fire that was possibly put out some years ago.

There are those who argue we've made great stride to bridge the racial divide, and the playing field is leveling out.

I'm going to say it's not perfect, it's leveling out to a degree.

So with that said, is your podcast fanning the flames, so to speak, or Todd, should we keep the fire burning on this race conversation and really keep talking about this?

I got 60s for you and then 60 for Andre.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, the proof is in the pudding.

Every one of our guests conversations, they want to have another conversation and then another conversation after that, people feel more connected.

They feel more informed.

They feel transformed in some way.

I think it's not whether we should have conversations, but how we have the conversations.

And I think what we provide with healing grace is a way to not dance around topics, to keep the peace where we can be real.

But also move the ball forward.

Andre I like embers, right?

So as long as a person is having an uncomfortable emotion, that means growth is possible.

So I wouldn't say fanned the flames, but we are certainly stoking the embers.

And that's a good thin because you can't rebuild until you kind of destroy the what you know, what you what's already there.

And that's a great thing because now you get to write the narrativ in whatever direction you want.

And who wouldn't want to write a more positive narrative about their own live and connectedness in the world?

We live in a marvelous world full of marvelous people, but we allow these artificial institutions to keep us separate when it just doesn't have to be.

So now I know why the two.

You're such great friends after 30 years and have a really great and popular podcast sailing race.

Andre Thomas, Todd Levinson thank you both so much for this great interview.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you David.

We're going to interview you again now.

For more information about our program just click on KLCS.org and then click Contact Us or send us your questions, your comments, even your story ideas so we can hear from you or you know, you can contact me directly at David Nazar news all one word on X or just go to David Nazar news all one word, That's my YouTube channel.

You know, I'll get back to you.

Just contact me there and be sure to catch our program here on PBS or catch us on the PBS app.

Thank you all so much for joining us.

I'm David Nazar.