/Welcome, everyone.

/I'm Mikaela Lefrak, /the host of Vermont Edition /at Vermont Public.

/Thank you.

/Thank you all /!so much for being here tonight /as we welcome /Jenn White and the 1A team.

/One more round of applause.

/So excited.

/So these days, /nearly every conversation /that we seem to have /on Vermont Edition circles /back to one key topic, /which is housing.

/The lack there of, /how expensive it is, /how it affects /our natural environment /when we build more of it?

/No matter what we seem /to be talking about housing.

/We are so thrilled to have 1A /and Jenn White here tonight /to host tonight's important /discussion about housing.

/I used to work at the station /in DC where 1A is produced.

/WAMU and I got to watch her /team in action.

/The breadth of news /that 1A covers in their daily /!show is absolutely astounding, /as is the empathy /and the respect that they /show each other on their team /and their listeners.

/Jenn White has worked /in public radio since 1999.

/She came to one from WBEZ /in Chicago, where she held /several on air positions /as host of the station's /local two hour midday show /Reset with Jenn White /and before that /as host of The Morning Shift.

/She's also a familiar voice /from several WBEZ podcasts, /including Making Oprah /one of my personal favorites, /Making Obama and 16 Shots.

/Before WBEZ, White /was the local host /of All Things /Considered at Michigan Radio.

/She's moderated /!numerous on air, gubernatorial /and mayoral debates.

/She's a native of Detroit /and a graduate /!of the University of Michigan.

/We really hope that you enjoy /the conversation tonight.

/And with that, /let's give a warm /welcome to Jenn White /and tonight's panelists.

/Good evening, everyone.

/It is so lovely to be here /in Vermont.

/I'm Jenn White and we're here /to talk about housing as part /of a special collaboration /with Vermont Public.

/Many people know Vermont /as a scenic ski destination /or the largest producer /!of maple syrup in the country.

/But for a rising share of low /and moderate income residents /Vermont is known /for something else, /being an increasingly /unaffordable place to live.

/The median annual home /sale price in Vermont reached /$325,000 last year.

/!That's up 5% compared to 2022.

/!Meanwhile, the number of homes /sold in Vermont /last year was the lowest /since 2012.

/While the housing market /was still grappling /with the effects /of the Great Recession.

/And that's /according to an analysis /published /last month from the Vermont /Housing Finance Agency.

/And it's all happening /as lawmakers try to pass laws /encouraging more housing /development in the state /while facing resistance /from Vermont's governor, /Republican Phil Scott.

/Tonight, /we're hearing from you /and our panelists /about how to best /!solve Vermont's housing crisis /and what's at stake /for Vermont residents /if that doesn't happen.

/With me on stage /is Maura Collins.

/She's the executive director /of the Vermont /Housing Finance Agency.

/Maura, thanks for joining us.

/Thank you.

/Also with us is Carly Berlin.

/She's a reporter /covering /housing and infrastructure /for Vermont Public /and VTDigger.

/Hi, Carly.

/And Nancy /Owens, she's the president /and co-founder of Evernorth.

/That's /a nonprofit organization /that finances and develops /affordable /housing and community /development projects /for low and moderate /income people in Maine, /New Hampshire and Vermont.

/Nancy, thanks for being here.

/Because you're each coming /at this conversation /from different perspectives /and experiences /I'd love to hear /!how each of you would describe /the housing market /in Vermont right now.

/Maura I'll come to you first.

/I would say not surprising.

/!I would say that having worked /and lived in Vermont /for over 20 years, /that we saw this coming /and we knew that /under building in our state /would probably lead to this.

/There have been /some surprising factors.

/I'll say this interest rate /environment /of such a fast, sharp /increase has really turned up /the pressure on folks ability /to afford housing.

/And yet I do think that there /were some systemic issues /that have been happening /for a long time /that did contribute to this.

/But I'm pleased to see /!that we're starting to address /those in the legislature, /in our communities.

/And so I do think that /things are changing.

/And we all know /that the public discourse /and the awareness /is so much broader now, /I think, as evidenced /by this event, /having people here /who want to come out and hear /about what's happening /with housing.

/Carly, what about you?

/How would you describe /the environment?

/I think the one or the first /!word that comes to mind for me /is gridlock.

/Our rental vacancy rates /in Vermont /and particularly here /in Chittenden County /are really, /really, really low, /which means that it's /very hard /to find an available place /to rent.

/And same goes /I'm glad that you cited /those statistics about the /home buying market too where /the number /of home sales is tanking.

/And that means that people /are staying where they are.

/You know, /the high interest rates /obviously /contribute to that, too, /but that means that people /are stuck and not moving up /or, you know, able to move /homes very easily.

/And, you know, /we have /some of the highest rates /!of homelessness in the country /as well.

/And so, /you know, when you have /that really, really tight /market, /you have more people falling /into homelessness as well.

/Nancy, /how would you describe it?

/You know, /these folks are doing /a great job describing it.

/!I think one of the words I use /sometimes is, /you know, the housing market /feels broken.

/It's not working /the way we expect /or have seen in the past.

/And that there's just /you know, /there are just not enough /homes for the people who /want to work here /and live here in Vermont.

/And so the impacts that we're /seeing are pretty tremendous.

/The gridlock, /the homelessness and /some of those things are also /driven from economic /!forces outside of our control.

/And so it's it's /a challenging time.

/Maura, as Carly said, /we're in Chittenden County.

/This is where /Vermont's largest city, /Burlington, is also located.

/It has a different /housing market /than the rest of the state.

/How does it differ?

/Being our population center, /we also we know that there's /a lot of jobs here and the /median income is higher here.

/We have the University.

/We have a key medical center.

/And so it really is a hub /in many ways.

/And that means that demand /!for housing is very high here.

/And so the needs are acute.

/That being said, /I think it's been surprising /to people /to see the housing shortage /permeate even our rural towns /and see that /we have homeless Vermonters /all across the state.

/But in Chittenden County, /we see more renters.

/And but we have more condo /condominiums available, /which is a great, more modest /housing size.

/But I was shocked /when I looked at the data /that last year the median /price of a single family /!home was actually about $1,000 /less than the median /price of a condo.

/And I always think of condos /as smaller, more affordable.

/We know in Chittenden County /we have more condos.

/And so that's /a real opportunity.

/But to have /!the median of condos be higher /was surprising to me.

/Nancy, take us into some of /the rural areas in Vermont.

/!And I think when we talk about /the housing crisis, it's /often discussed /through an urban lens.

/But what are we seeing in /rural communities /here in the state?

/We are seeing a lot /of the same issues in that.

/!But there are some differences /as Maura is pointing out.

/There is the same shortage /of housing stock.

/There's /the condition /of the housing stock /in Vermont across the /whole state is it's very old.

/And in our rural communities, /that's even more the case.

/There hasn't /!been as much building overall.

/So that's a challenge.

/I think a challenge /that rural communities face /that's a little bit different /than Chittenden County /is infrastructure, /you know, /water and sewer systems /are needed for development, /especially when we're talking /about multi-family housing.

/And that's not as prevalent /in some of our communities /across the state.

/And there's always a question /we talk a lot about /in Vermont, which is scale.

/So Chittenden County, /we're more /open to /the communities are more open /to larger scale buildings, /larger scale developments.

/And in many other communes /in the state, /that scale is diminished.

/And that's a harder /it's harder /from a developers /perspective to /develop /housing at a smaller scale /in terms of the number /!of units, the number of homes.

/What about the degree /of visibility?

/The visibility of /well theres visibility /questions around like /the question of homelessness.

/I think that's /one of the things /in our rural communities /there is homelessness /has increased /across the whole state /and it's not quite as visible /in our rural communities /!as it is in Chittenden County.

/As I mentioned /at the start, home /prices have increased, /but the number of home sales /have decreased in Vermont /for the last several years.

/Maura /why are we seeing that trend?

/I think there's a lot of us /who are sitting on 3% /interest rates on our homes /and we are not /going to be moving /anytime soon.

/I mean, if you think about /what a 3% interest /rate would be, /I mean, you could be looking /at a mortgage payment /of $1,600 a month, that /same home, /if that's at a 7% rate, /which is about where we are /right now, /that goes up to $2,500-$2,600 /a month.

/And so we do see people /staying in their homes.

/We also know that /when interest /rates were so low for so long /!and there was a strong economy /and we were all home /a lot for COVID, a lot of us /added onto our homes, /improved our homes.

/And so the housing stock /that was once built /to be modest, small, /we added on to, /we put another story, on /maybe there's a bonus room, /a porch, a deck, /and next thing you know, /we have more homes /over 2000 square feet.

/And so when those do /turn over, /they're less affordable /because they're bigger /and have been improved /in that way.

/There's a lot of variety /under the umbrella /of housing development, but /help us understand /the differences /between building affordable /housing and market /rate housing.

/Oh, yeah, /I love this question.

/So first off, affordable /housing in many ways /is a misnomer /because we start thinking /that we're building /housing, /we're building apartments.

/And that's true.

/!We're building the apartments, /but we're also when we use /public money, /we're also revitalizing /our downtowns.

/We're preserving /historic structures.

/We're doing /a lot more in that.

/And sort of /if you imagine that iceberg /and you look /below the waterline, /I don't think it shows /that we're also /addressing homelessness /by setting aside /units for people.

/We're providing a platform /for services.

/Sometimes /with housing dollars, /we're funding services, /we're cleaning up dirty soils /and we're reducing greenhouse /gas emissions /because of the smart growth /of where /we're putting the housing /and the smart transportation /connections that we have.

/!But I also think that the role /and importance of the market /rate housing is critical /because /I think that for very long /and when I say, you know, /for the last 20 years that /we knew if we looked /at the different income bands /that housing /has not been affordable /!at the very lowest income band /for a very long time.

/And so I think Nancy /and I have seen this /with the affordable /housing programs we run.

/But for the last several /years, /the impact of the housing /unaffordability /has been reaching up /the income band.

/And now it's not uncommon /for me to hear /from people earning /well into the six figures /who cannot find a place /to rent, much less own.

/!And so we need all the housing /of all the types /of all the price points /to address this issue.

/We got this message from Rob, /who wrote, / "We are in a housing crisis /here in Vermont.

/We're in a crisis to keep /young people in the state.

/Developers are building /$500,000 houses /because that's /where the money is.

/But what we need here /!in Vermont is $200,000 houses.

/In my mind, /Vermont needs to figure out /!how to get developers to build /small starter homes.

/And Nancy we have to know, /and as you alluded to Maura, /inflation has touched /virtually every corner /of the American economy, /including housing.

/How have rising costs /changed the types of homes /developers choose to take on?

/Yeah, I hear what the caller /with the person has said /and it would be nice /if we could do that.

/And the fact is /that developers /cannot produce a home /at that price point, /that the home costs /more than that to build.

/And so the math doesn't work.

/And so that's /where developers are are /they're going to /!meet the market, where they're /!where they're going to be able /to make a profit, /as any business would do.

/Right?

/So and right now, /where construction costs /have increased over /30% in the past few years, /that's had an amazing /and very strong impact.

/I think also that /the interest rates /have also affected /people's ability /to finance the homes /and to build the homes /and construct the homes.

/So developers /are working /within the environment /that we have, the economic /environment that we have.

/And what they're looking for, /I think /one of the other issues, /I think more structurally /beyond a single developer, /whether there are affordable /!housing developer, market rate /developer, is /the environment that we're /working in to do that and how /all of the things that /we are looking for /in our communities, /the clean soils, the, /the new roadways, /the sidewalks that connect /our communities, /the infrastructure /that's needed in years /past, 20 or 30 years ago, /those expenses were often /!borne by the towns themselves, /the municipalities.

/That infrastructure /was provided.

/And when a developer /was developing a property, /they were responsible /for building the building and /creating that.

/But many of those /infrastructure costs are now /born by a development itself.

/And so our rules, /our environmental rules /have increased.

That's great.

/We have clean water right, /where these are good policies /and things /that we want to see.

/!Clean air and clean water and, /you know, /better stormwater systems /and connectivity.

/But those expenses are being /born on new developments /and, you know, I like to - /sometimes /our new developments, /whether that's the energy /efficiency standards, /the construction standards, /the stormwater standards, /all those things have made /us make great new buildings.

/And those are great, but /they're bearing extra cost.

/Well, I don't know about you, /but when I was growing up, /the idea was, you know, /you go to school, /you get a good job, /you buy a house.

/And that house was seen /as part of how you measured /your success.

/It was a pathway /to wealth building.

/But when I talk to /young people in my life now, /they've made the assumption /in many cases that purchasing /a home is permanently /out of reach for them.

/And Carly, /I'm curious here in Vermont /how much of the political /discussion is focused around /building homes for purchase /and how much of it is focused /around /building homes for rent?

/For you know, for /maybe you're not going to be /in there for 30 years.

/Maybe it's a place /you're in for five.

/I think that's /a great question.

/I think the /political conversation /is really centered around /just building /more just increasing supply /generally /to address this deficit /that we're facing, /this shortage /that locks everyone in place.

/And so I don't think the /conversation is necessarily /more about homes /for sale or homes for rent.

/I do think /there is a divide over /!are we building, you know, big /a publicly funded affordable /housing or market /rate housing generally?

/I think there's a debate /at the State House /right now over, you know, /the different set of tools /in front of lawmakers and /the governor's administration /to address those things, to /just try to increase supply.

/!And a lot of that conversation /has revolved around /looking at, you know, /state particularly /environmental regulations /this year around, you know, /how can the state /get out of the way /of just building more /and encouraging more growth /and development from /the private sector /and, you know, publicly /funded builders as well.

/When I hear you, /Nancy, and Maura talk about /!perhaps thinking about the way /regulations are providing /or creating a barrier /to housing, /is there a part of you /that says /we can remove /some of those regulations or /!make it easier for developers, /but there's a risk attached /to doing that?

Mm.

/Nancy?

Yeah.

/You know, /I think to get more housing, /we need three things.

/We need some adjusting /to our regulations and rules.

/We need more capital, /more money /available /to create that affordability.

/And we need some, what I call /culture change that.

/So that when we apply /those rules /that the housing /actually gets built.

/And so when /!I think about the rules change /because I want clean water, /I want clean air, /but we also need housing, /right?

/And so I really /try to /focus on can we make a rule /where the default /at this moment in /time is housing, /that the rule that's in place /is intended /to create more housing?

/Not to say it's /conditional or it's, /you know, /if you /pass through all these hoops, /!but that the first priority is /that we're /going to get some housing /and that the rule /!is set up to make that happen.

/And we've seen other states /and municipalities /and counties and other areas /make those kinds of changes /to open the pathway.

/Maura, what about for you?

/Yeah, /Minneapolis stands out to me.

/I think what Nancy's /talking about as an example, /I know that NPR had a Weekend /!Edition focused on it recently /where /!they made the kind of planning /and zoning changes /that Vermont /has been modeling a lot /of our legislation after.

/And they did things /where housing was /more the default place /!and they increased density and /looked to expand /what was possible /and they were able to grow /their housing stock by 14%.

/And therefore /the rents only went up by 1% /in Minneapolis /since 2017, as opposed /to the rest of the state /that went up by 14%.

/And so these things really do /work.

/And I think it's proving that /there's a lot possible here.

/And so I'm hoping that /we're going to show /that Vermont can follow suit, /because I think Vermont /has a 35 plus year history /of not falling into the trap /of pitting environment /against housing development.

/We have a long history.

/Our housing /trust fund is not called /the housing trust fund.

/It's a housing /and conservation trust fund.

/And so that is funded /by increased /prices of land and housing.

/And so as the market /gets hotter, we are investing /more in both affordable /!housing and land conservation.

/And so these two unlikely /bedfellows we've put together /and ensured that /we are funding both equally /to make sure /that we are preserving /and protecting /where we need to, /but also driving development /into our downtowns, densely /and appropriately, /so that we can make sure /that the human habitat /is as adequately served /as all the bear habitats /and the other habitats /that we have in the state.

/I want to turn back to the /politics in just a moment, /but first, /!we should acknowledge that not /everyone is being shut /out of the housing market /equally.

/Who's most affected /by the shortage of housing /here in Vermont?

Maura?

/Absolutely.

/People with lower incomes.

/I think that we see that /not just in Vermont, /but nationally, /!there are fewer choices there.

/But I also want to call out /that Vermont is one of the /whitest states in the nation.

/90% of us /are white in this state.

/And so we know that black, /!indigenous and people of color /bipoc /Vermonters are the fastest /growing part of our state /and we are becoming more /and more diverse.

/But we also know that we have /a very long history /in this nation /of not having equal access /to that dream /that you were talking /about earlier.

/And so in Vermont, /the difference between /the white homeownership rate, /which is above /70%, the black /homeownership rate is 30%.

/In Vermont, that's worse /than the national averages.

/And that's gotten worse /since we passed /civil rights fair /housing legislation four days /after Martin Luther /King was shot.

/So we are losing ground /in this way.

/And so something needs /to happen differently /because when you talk about /!who's really not being served, /we're talking about /the fastest growing /segment of our population /right now, /which is people of color.

/You, Nancy, as you're working /to develop /new housing in Vermont, /how often do you bump up /against 250?

/Well, very often that we're /working with Act 250.

/And there's been some /tremendous /successes with the program /and with the states, /you know, really creating.

/As Maura said earlier, /we're focused on our housing, /in our downtowns and /!in our core development areas.

/And in those areas, /there are ways /that municipalities /have opted out of Act 250, /and that's been /a real benefit /for affordable housing.

/So in terms of it's /created opportunity /for that more dense /housing, /the multifamily property /to be happening /in those areas.

/I think most developers /!view of permitting and Act 250 /is we want clarity /and we want an answer /and we want the answer /as quickly as we can get it.

/And so one of the difficult /one of the issues /under conversation /is, you know, /how these decisions get made.

/What if there's disagreement /and so forth?

And I think /the solution is /!this as quick as we can get it /as firm as we can get it, /and that's the best solution /because time is money /in this situation.

/And Carly has been doing /some reporting on a property /were involved in down /in Putney, Vermont.

/!That project has been delayed, /I think, close to four years /as a result /of actually appeals /of a permit process, /not an Act 250 but locals.

/And that impact /has been almost /$5 million on the project /because of /!it's happened during this time /when construction prices /have escalated /and that extra cost is 95% of /that extra cost is straight /in the construction costs.

/So it's /$5 million /that's not being /spent on other affordable /housing /that could be being built /in Vermont.

/And that's a delay.

/Well, /!that leads us to this question /we got from one of you.

/You write small towns /throughout the state /often block development /of any kind through claims /!of preserving rural character.

/What is the responsibility /of local government /in addressing the state's /housing shortage?

/Nancy and Maura /I think I'd like to hear from /!both of you on that.

Go ahead.

/Yeah, zoning is a local issue /and that's not regulated /at the state.

/!There's our state Act 250, but /zoning is happening locally.

/And I local /!communities are making changes /!and making some great changes.

/!And I think our responsibility /goes beyond the municipality.

/It goes right /to each of us individually /to show /up at a zoning hearing.

/There's a property /or a project /that's going to happen /in your community that will /benefit your community /with new housing.

/Show up and speak about it /and speak out in favor of it.

/Because I have been /to hundreds of these meetings /and it's very rare /to see anyone there /!voicing support for a project.

/And it makes a big impact /when it does happen.

/Maura, your thoughts?

/Just about every town in /Vermont has a cemetery, /and that means just about /every town in Vermont /has a cemetery commission.

/There are, by contrast, /probably fewer /than 20 housing commissions /locally in Vermont.

/So we clearly care /more about where we're living /in the afterlife /than where we're living today /and trying to get to work, /trying to feed our kids, /trying to pay for higher ed /and all these things.

/So I think, as /Nancy was saying, /where do we want to put /our attention?

/VHFA has been supporting /the creation of local /housing commissions, /and that's how I know /there's about 20 of them.

/We are trying to /have resources where people /can get local data /!about where the housing needs, /who's living there, /what's happening, /and then also showing them /the policies that work.

/If I'm in a town that has a /!lot of retail and what are the /tools I can use to maybe /have some taxes or fees /from that retail to support /the workers /!who work in that retail versus /if my local needs are /about the low rental quality /of the housing stock, /!what do I need to put in place /locally /!to address absentee landlords?

/Or if I'm in a ski community /and I see the number of short /term rentals skyrocketing, /what can I do to address /that and make sure /that there's more permanent /housing for residents?

/And so, as Nancy said, /the conversation has to start /and end locally /because that's where /the rubber hits the road /and that's /where the housing needs /to be created.

/We got this message from /I hope I say your name /correctly, Tinotenda /from South Burlington, /who says "Vermont is known /for its progressive /and liberal values.

/Yet when it comes to housing, /it seems like Vermonters /are not living those values /from the legislature /to businesspeople /to ordinary citizens.

/Everyone you ask says /!housing is the biggest crisis, /yet we are somehow unable /and perhaps unwilling /to make this /an all hands on deck problem.

/Housing is a human right.

/!My question is, are Vermonters /truly living their /progressive values /if they don't see it /right to build more housing?

/It's interesting /in hearing you describe /the political tension, /it sounds as if it's being /framed as sort of an either /or either we do it this way /or we do it this way.

/But Maura and Nancy, is there /a yes and opportunity here?

/There needs to be, /doesn't there.

/Tinos /right on with that comment.

/And it is hard /to watch sometimes.

/!And yet I do believe that it's /coming from good intentions.

/And I know that /some of the conversations /at the State House around /Act 250 is a very legitimate /question around /- well can you prove to me /what hasn't been built as /a result of this legislation?

/And the answer /is a very unsatisfactory /no, because it's hard /to prove a negative.

/It's hard /to prove what hasn't happened /as a result of developers /not wanting to take the risk /that Nancy was talking about /in terms of timing /and what's happening.

/And earlier, a question /you read spoke to /that developers /are going to build /$500,000 homes because that's /where the money is /and versus the $250,000 homes /that we really need.

/And right now /in the affordable housing /sphere, /I'd take a $500,000 home /because the affordable /apartments /!that we're building oftentimes /cost even more than that.

/And so these cost /escalations are real /and they are not because of /money grubbing /developers /!who are getting rich off this.

/It is legitimately /the increased cost of land.

/It's the higher interest /rates, it's /the cost of materials.

/It's the labor shortage /that we have.

/And that is the vicious cycle /that we're in, /which is if it used to take /10 to 12 months /!to build an apartment building /in Vermont, it now is easily /taking 14 to 16 months.

/And if that's the case, /that extra 4 to 6 months /costs money and so /it just makes the housing /that much more expensive /when things take longer.

/And so that /lack of predictability /can really drive up costs.

/Nancy, where do you see /the yes and opportunity?

/I also /agree with Tino's remarks and /- Yes, and /I think there /is a question to ask about /do we want to continue /the way things are?

/We can /provide statistics /about how things are right /now, what /those housing costs are, /what the rent costs are, /how many people are homeless, /the lack of supply, /and why we need more.

/What that impact /!has on employers and so forth.

/We can say /this is what's happening and /we know that more housing /is going to make /that better.

/!It's going to improve people's /lives.

/!It's going to improve outcomes /for kids in schools /who have housing.

/All of these things.

/And so /what is standing in our way /and I really have to go /!back to there, some regulatory /relief that needs to happen.

/There are some more money /that needs to flow /because the money /has made a difference.

/We have seen the money /from ARPA /and these federal funds /that we've had access to /has made a difference.

/!We are producing more housing.

/!But there is a cultural shift.

/There is that, yes and.

/There is this acceptance /!that when Vermont needs 50,000 /more homes or whatever /the number is, that it means /!we arent going to have 50,000 /more single family homes.

/That is not /what we're going to produce.

/We are going to produce /some of that, some ADU, /some tiny houses.

/But we need to produce /multifamily /housing, condominiums, /for sale, rental housing.

/And that is /slightly different than the /landscape people are used to /in some ways.

/In other ways, /travel our towns /and our village centers and /there are homes there /that are serving /this this population, /these multifamily homes.

/There's lots of old homes /that have been /that are small developments, /right, for units, /six units, ten units.

/But we need to think about /can we can we accept /having larger buildings /and more people?

/And I don't want to /just accept it.

/!I want to see more people here /and I want to see everybody /housed.

/[applause] /Speaking of more people /in Vermont, /Susan is here /and has a question about /population and its effect /on the housing market.

/Susan, /if you can make your way /to a microphone and I /also want to invite Angelo to /come down as /!well, who also has a question.

/While we're waiting for them, /Vermont's /Housing Finance Agency /!estimates that the state will, /quote, "need to develop /at least 30,000 homes /before the end of this decade /to match population growth /and normalize /the housing market.

/That's according to the 2023 /Vermont Housing Investment /Fund Annual Report.

/Maura, currently /the state is not on track /to meet that goal.

/So what happens /to the housing market /if development continues /at the current pace?

/What happens to the housing /market /is that it /gets less affordable.

/But I think the question is /what happens to Vermonters?

/I mean, /what happens to our economy?

/Our state treasurer has been /very clear that the lack of /housing in this state /is holding back /our economic growth.

/It has been cited /by the rating agencies /!when they downgraded the state /so many years ago, /they cited /the state's /stagnant demographics /and that's impacted /by the lack of housing.

/And we hear from employers /and now we have some /new programs /specifically targeted /for housing developers /to work with employers /because they're feeling /the need to go it alone.

/Their ability to attract and /retain workers is so limited /that Vermont is not living /its true potential /because of not meeting /these housing goals /and the low vacancy /rate of the housing, /it means that more /and more of our young college /graduates /are leaving the state.

/We know that /people are choosing /!to go elsewhere where they can /- the wages better /match the housing costs.

/And we're losing a vitality /in Vermont /that we need to turn around /if we're going to have /the kind of Vermont that /I think so far 650,000 of us /think is a wonderful place /to call home.

/There are so many more /who want to join us, /and there's employers teed up /wanting them /in their workforce.

/And we just need /to create the environment /so that that can happen.

/Susan, please go ahead.

/I wonder if you could share /or more simply share /some population statistics /for Vermont /say in the last 40 years /and some demographic /descriptions of that data.

/Maura, is that something /you could do for us?

/I have a little cheat /sheet in front of me, /so I can try my best.

/I can tell you that /I think in terms /!of households, not population, /because I care about housing.

/So that's my shtick.

/And so we know that /for a long time /!we were growing our households /at 1% a year.

/And then since the pandemic, /that is just about doubled.

/And so there has been /a growth.

/But when I - /the real sharp increase /began probably in about 2017, /where we started seeing more /and more households.

/I mentioned before, though, /that the newer households /and newer Vermonters are more /likely to be people of color.

/So we see that /white households are growing /at that about 1%, but that /black households are growing /at 38%, Asian households 36%.

/So who are Vermonters /is looking different now.

/But also the household size /is are getting smaller.

/Now, when I start to sound /like a nerd and talking /about households, it matters.

/Household size matters.

/!Because when my family of five /and three of those kids /someday grow up and move out, /they are going to need /their own homes.

/And so that one family home /that served /us may need four homes /in the future.

/Now, some of them /may partner up /and there may be other things /going on, /but we know that /the household size has shrunk /considerably /since the 1960s nationwide.

/But also in Vermont, /we have one of the lowest /household sizes in the nation /at 2.3% and sorry, /2.3 people per household.

/Yet we also know /that our homes too big.

/Less than 20% of us /are in a nuclear family where /there's a couple and children /living in a household.

/It's about 17% of Vermonters.

/Yet about 60% of our homes /have three - are standalone /single family homes /with three bedrooms or more.

/!So the household configuration /we have /and the housing stock /we have have a real mismatch.

/And you add on to /that where Vermont's growing /and changing in the future, /!and we really have a conundrum /about how we make sure /!that the housing in this state /meets /not only the Vermonters /here today, /but the Vermonters /of the future.

/We heard from Daria, /who's here tonight.

/Daria says, "I'm /curious to know how many /former apartments /in Chittenden County /have been turned into Airbnbs /and home and buildings /that have been bought /for the purpose of short term /rentals.

/Is anyone overseeing this?

/!And that relates to Virginia's /question.

/Virginia says / "Tourism is a key industry /for all of Vermont.

/And second, home ownership /!is an increasingly contentious /issue here in the state.

/How do we balance /the need for vacation rentals /and the boost /on local economies /with the need /for primary residences?

/So let's start with /whether there's any oversight /of Airbnbs /and other short term rentals.

/Oversight not in the way /I think they're thinking of.

/We do have data on it /and I can say that /since we started /seeing the data trends /that the number of short /term rentals is exploding.

/!We're up to about 11,000 homes /in Vermont, which is about /4% of our housing /stock are short term rentals.

/That said, the data /going back to the 1940s /shows that Vermont /has always been either /ranked first or second behind /Maine of having the largest /part of our housing stock /be vacation homes.

/!Right now, at 15% of our homes /are vacation homes /and 4% of /those are short term rentals.

/And what I can't tell you /is how much overlap /between those two numbers /because of the /sources of the figures, /a lot of those short term /rentals are counted /as vacation homes already.

/We know a lot of /ski communities, mountainside /condos that have /always been vacation homes, /and now they're listed on the /short term rental platforms /and that's /how you access them.

/But there also are investor /owned companies /buying up units /and taking them offline and /having them what would /otherwise be a permanent /Year-Round residence /now be a short term rental.

/And so a couple of years ago, /the legislature did /allow for towns to regulate /short term rentals.

/And that was a great move /because short term rentals /don't affect all of our towns /equally.

/!Burlington locally, absolutely /is getting hit with this.

/And so they /put in regulations and limits /to what can happen.

/The ski towns, /there's about a dozen towns /that have a really high /proportion /of their housing stock /as short term rentals.

/But after you get past that /!first 12 towns or so ski towns /plus Burlington, /the impact of this really /drops off precipitously.

/So I get that short term /rentals are the newest /boogeyman that we all are /very worried about.

/And in several towns /that is a very real threat /and has a big impact.

/But there's 252 towns /in the state /and for a lot of them, it's /not the impact we think.

/And I want to challenge our /thinking because /!in some of the towns are rural /Vermont, short term /rentals are actually /a great way /to drive some tourism /into communities /that are never going to have /a hotel and never should /a hotel.

/We've reclaimed /several old railroad lines /and now they're wonderful, /multi-use rec paths.

/And if you want to take a day /or two and ride the Lamoille /Valley Rail Trail /or the Missisquoi Valley Rail /Trail, that's great.

/But you may want to stay in /some of the towns /along the way.

/They don't have hotels there /and they probably shouldn't.

/!And so if there was an Airbnb, /that may be a good option /to drive some tourism /into those towns.

/But when it takes away /from our housing stock /and when we don't, also in /those same towns /have enough homes /for everyone, /that's when you start /seeing people /have a more suspicious eye /about what's going on /with these units.

/I see we have Shawna /with us now /and Shawna /actually reached out to us /ahead of our arrival here.

/Shawna is from /Fairfield, Vermont, /and this is one of /several emails /we got from Vermonters /proposing solutions /to a problem that /many elderly residents face, /which is over housing.

/And that's when, /as you talked about earlier, /Maura /a person is living in a home /!with more rooms than they need /based on the size /of their household.

/For example, /a couple who lives alone /in a five bedroom /house.

Shawna, go ahead.

/Thank you so much.

/So as we know, /we're an aging population.

/And here in Vermont, /particularly /in our rural communities, /as you just said, /we have a lot of people /who are over /housed, older /people who are having trouble /maintaining their homes, /but who would very much /like to continue /to live in their homes /and in their communities.

/My solution, my proposed /solution /will require coordination, /but at the end of the day, /it will be a market /based solution, /not one that requires /continual subsidy /!and the solution is to develop /a pilot, /beginning with a pilot /that would reach out /to over housed Vermonters /and a particular /region of the state.

/Pick your region.

/But I think it makes sense /to begin /to focus this regionally.

/And talk to them /about the prospects, /figure out /how to assess the prospects /for changing /their single family home /into multiple units.

/The number of units obviously /would depend on the home, /but those units would be /highly energy efficient.

/They would provide company /and a social milieu /for the people /who live in those homes /and the people /who own the homes now /would continue to own them.

/So the idea is that once /a plan is put in place /to create multifamily housing /of some sort there, /then there will be an income /stream from that housing.

/And what we need to do /is negotiate /with Vermont financiers /to say to them, look, /rather than requiring owners /to have money upfront, /to pay for the construction /of these multifamily units, /let's let them construct /those units.

/You will finance it.

/You will be paid back over /time from the income stream, /from those units, /very similar /to an on the anvil financing /notion that that innovative /utility companies have used /to create energy efficiency /among their clients.

/The part of the benefit of /this is that /the obligation to repay /would travel with the unit /so the unit could be sold, /the unit could be inherited, /but the banks would not /lose out.

/Also, /in terms of affordability, /we'd be /using /an underutilized resource, /not just the houses /themselves, /some of which may be in bad /enough shape /they need to be torn down.

/!But the land and many of these /old houses come with land.

/So an incentive to people /who would then be moving to /those properties /would be access /to that land shared /use of some of that property, /which I think /!is a really an exciting thing.

/Shawna, thanks for that.

/I'd love to hear responses /from Nancy and Maura.

/I think that /that kind of innovation /and that kind of creativity /is needed to all the problems /that we're going to address /today.

/We need to be doing all the /things by all the people.

/I know that Home Share /!Vermont is a wonderful program /that we have in our state /that has done something /very similar to that, /that we could talk about.

/And then I also know /!that a lot of older Vermonters /have thought about downsizing /and looking at that, but /!some of the concerns they have /is where would they go?

/And what you're proposing /is that they stay in place.

/I also think we need to look /at our housing stock /and see is it always possible /to renovate our homes, /to have the kind of one floor /living that's so critical /for older Vermonters?

/I know that when my mother /was looking at /!moving into one story, living, /it was really hard /to find a place where /there was a no step entry.

/There was a first floor, /bedroom /and bath and all that, /and so the renovations could /be quite complex for that.

/!But I think that we have shown /- seen /!that when you have the kind of /handholding /and I'll say kitchen table /consulting that you're /talking about, /where you're sitting across /from someone /and talking /about their housing situation /!and what's possible, it works.

/We've done it with accessory /dwelling units.

/ADUs are - used to be called /Granny Flats /or things like that.

/Extra units in your home.

/There's been a program /in Vermont /where it will sit /with homeowners and try to /help them figure out /how do you turn your home /into having an ADU?

/And that's well, /what you need.

/It's pretty labor intensive /to have that kind of /conversation /over a kitchen table.

/All right.

/Go ahead.

/Yeah, I would just say again /is great.

/More diversity, /more types of housing, /!all those things are terrific.

/And ADUs are another example.

/!And the regulations we're lookin /up-zoning all of our /single family neighborhoods /so that that household /who might be in an oversize /single family home, /it can now become /a two bedroom or a two unit /or a three unit home.

/All those supports /are falling into place.

/And so yeah, let's innovate.

/And that is a high touch /model.

/And so, you know, /there's a cost to that.

/And there may be other ways /to overcome that.

/But every kind of housing.

/I think it's always good /to end conversations /like this with /questions /we should ask ourselves /as we leave, because I think /you can come away from /these big problems like, /oh, we're in a housing crisis /and you can walk away feeling /like there's nothing really /I can do as an individual, /!as a member of this community.

/But I don't /want you to leave here /feeling that way tonight.

/So I'd love to hear /!from each of you as we wrap up /questions /we can ask ourselves.

/And maybe one thing /that we can do /just as an individual, /and in approaching this /from a community level /so that all of Vermonters /feel like they /not only have stakes in it, /but that there's something /they can actually do.

/I'll come to you first.

/Yeah, I.

/I would hope /people can ask themselves, /what change /am I willing to accept?

/And is the change /!that's happening around us now /in Vermont, one /I want to accept, /or am I going to do something /so that /we're shaping the change /that we are looking for?

/And one thing /that someone can do today.

/Oh, attend a zoning meeting.

/Attend /a zoning meeting.

/That's an easy one.

/Carly, /I know you're coming at this /as a reporter, /but you're also someone /who lives in the state.

/Question /maybe we can ask ourselves, /something we can do.

/Yeah, I want to - /I've been thinking /about the Vermont /progressive values question /we got earlier, and I think /Vermont is a state /that really values /the small d democracy, /the civic engagement, /showing up at a town meeting /and saying your part.

/And I think that value set /also allows /for many options /for people to say /no to more housing, /to say no to more density.

/And I would /invite the question of, /you know, if you're someone /who wants to see more housing /get built, /is there a zoning meeting /!you can show up at to say, yes /when that that voice /is very rarely in the room?

/Maura, /I'll give you the last word.

/I think /the best thing we can do /is believe /!the people we're hearing from, /whether it's people /!with a direct lived experience /like we heard from Wyatt, /whether it's from a home /builder who's telling us that /the numbers just don't work, /whether it's from the over /housed older Vermonter /who's saying that /they just can't /keep up this home anymore /and something needs to change /and they need another option /in their community.

/We have to believe the voices /that we're hearing /and then see what /we can do to act on that.

/I would then say that /the action we can take /is to take that next step.

/You said a zoning board.

/I would say /!maybe look at our housing data /dot org website /to see if there's a housing /commission /for your community yet.

/And if there's not, /let's get one going.

/All the tools to do it /are there.

/There are a bunch of them /around the state /and I believe all of them /have seats open for you.

/We need more yimby's /more people who are willing /to not just say theoretically /that we need /housing somewhere in Vermont, /but people who are willing /to say, I'm /!willing to see my neighborhood /change and evolve /because it's worth it to me /that I be able to walk to /a restaurant, /have my kids walk to school, /have the kind of community /and neighbors /that I know Vermont needs /so that we have the wonderful /communities that I know /we already have and can grow.

/I think sometimes /we can find ourselves /overwhelmed by /everything that's happening /in this conversation, /and that's /when it's really good /to have that question /we can ask ourselves.

/What's /the question we should pose?

/What can you do?

/So often people say, Well, /I don't have a lot of money.

/Well, what can you do?

/Can you write a letter /to the editor?

/What can you do in /each situation?

/I mean, we have a whole bunch /of people here tonight, /and I'm not going to ask you /to raise your hands.

/But how many of you /have written a letter /!to the editor about a proposed /housing development /!in your community to say, yes, /I want more.

/I want more /traffic because I know that /then it's going to get us /to a point where we invest /in our downtowns.

/You know, I want more ability /to have dense development /and I want more.

/So what can you do?

/What can I do?

/What can all of us do.

/And call /on our elected officials /to ask them what they can do.

/I happen /to see our lieutenant /!governor front an center here, /and I'm sure /there's other elected /officials beyond the lights.

/So let's get it going here.

/Well, we will leave the /conversation there for now.

/That's Maura Collins.

/She's the executive director /of the Vermont Housing /Finance Agency.

/Also with us, Carly Berlin.

/She's a reporter covering /housing and infrastructure /for Vermont Public /and VTDigger.

/And Nancy Owens.

/She's the president /and co-founder of Evernorth.

/That's /a nonprofit organization /that finances /and develop its affordable /housing and community /development projects for low /and moderate income people /in Maine, New Hampshire /and Vermont.

/!Maura, Carly, Nancy, thank you /for this conversation.

/Thank you.

/So glad to be here.

/And thank you /all for your questions /and your ideas.

/!This Conversation was produced /by 1As /Lauren Hamilton and many /thanks to Vermont Publics /Amy Zielinski for organizing /this event.

/Bill Lascomb was our sound /engineer.

/Tonight, /!Will Anderson did the lighting /and projection for the event.

/Brian Stevenson /is the managing director /of production.

/Holt Albee is the senior /producer and director.

/Dave Rice is the maintenance /engineer.

/Kaylee Mumford, Kyle /Ambusk and Riley Cartwright /operated the cameras.

/!And 1A comes to you from WAMU, /part of American University /in Washington, /distributed by NPR.

/!Thanks for being here tonight.

/I'm Jenn White /and we will talk again soon.