
How to Make A Million Bucks!
Season 4 Episode 406 | 28m 46sVideo has Closed Captions
You can make a million by working hard, spending less than you make, and saving!
It is possible! If you start early and save consistently, you’ll take advantage of the power of compound interest. You can make a million by working hard, spending less than you make, and saving, saving, saving. Meet a 16-year-old with a fashion recycling business.
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Biz Kid$ is presented by your local public television station.
Distributed nationally by American Public Television

How to Make A Million Bucks!
Season 4 Episode 406 | 28m 46sVideo has Closed Captions
It is possible! If you start early and save consistently, you’ll take advantage of the power of compound interest. You can make a million by working hard, spending less than you make, and saving, saving, saving. Meet a 16-year-old with a fashion recycling business.
Problems playing video? | Closed Captioning Feedback
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A complete list of individual credit union funders is available at wxxi.org.
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Learn more at lovemycreditunion.org.
>> ...take a look here.
Oh, oh, it's a scientific miracle!
My money is compounding and... and it's growing!
This is amazing!
At this rate, I'll easily make it to my goal of saving a million dollars.
And I owe my success to this show!
>> ♪ When making money is the aim ♪ These kids they bring their game.
♪ They're the Biz Kids!
Can you dig it?
♪ They know what's up, they let you know just how to make that dough.
♪ They're the Biz Kids.
Right on!
♪ So learn a little more about bringing money through the door.
♪ They're the Biz Kids!
Right on!
♪ >> Everybody wants to be a millionaire.
>> And a lot of people think that that's impossible.
>> Actually, it's not that hard to save a million dollars.
All you have to do is save enough over time until you have a million.
And the easiest way to do that is to STOW your money.
>> Stow your money?
>> Yeah, STOW.
"S" is for "save", "T" is for "time".
Let time and compound interest work their magic.
"O" is for "outgoing expenses".
Keep track of them.
And "W" is for "work more".
S-T-O-W. >> I don't know.
It sounds a little cheeseball to me.
>> Oh, you got a better one?
>> Uh, how about "Keep your WITS about you"?
"Work", "Interest", "Time", and "Save".
>> Keep your WITS about you?
>> Yeah.
>> Boring.
>> I've got one.
How about “MAC-daddy” million?
"M" is for "make more money".
"A" is for the "account you set up to save the money in", and "C" is for "compound interest".
>> Word!
>> What up, yo fresh?
>> ( rapping ) Yo, my name is Austin-tacious.
You see me rappin' throughout the many nations of the globe.
When you see me, you know when you hear my voice on the radio... >> Hey, Biz Kids, making a cool million isn't hard if you have a cool saving strategy.
I love to watch fashion shows.
I go online and look at the new trends-- what's out now, what all the stars are wearing.
So I'm very like, I have a complete, total interest in fashion.
My idea for D'Anna Dolly's started as a hobby with my best friend.
We used to bleach jeans for the girls at our school, just something fun.
And then I decided that this, it was, it was big, and everybody liked it, and all the girls, they really wanted us to bleach jeans for them.
So I decided, hey, I might be able to make money from this.
I won the Entrepreneur of the Year Award for competing in NFTE competitions and creating a business plan and showing great leadership towards my business.
Whenever I make money from my business, I save it in my secret stash first, and then I enter it to my bank account.
And then my bank account, when I deposit my money, it holds 50% of the money I've deposited and gives me the other 50% available to me now.
So... and I think that this saving strategy is very good, because it helps me to have something to hold on and stash for a rainy day.
Hey, Biz Kids, what do you say?
Stash your cash for a rainy day!
To save money, I basically, I shop at thrift stores because I'm a very big fan of vintage fashion.
I also cut back on eating out a lot.
I'd rather have dinner with my mom or something than instead of like, getting a bite to eat at a diner or somewhere like that.
It's very important for kids to save now while we're young.
So also, when we get older, we'll know the habits, we'll know what we need to do, we'll be used to it.
It'll be like second nature to us.
If I just keep my drive and keep dreaming big and keep all the support from my teachers, my friends, my family, and my... most importantly, my mom, and with this, the rate I'm going, I do think I could become a millionaire.
I save money, yes, I do.
I save money, so can you!
>> Take the Biz Kid million dollar challenge.
Make a million dollars by having the money you save work for you.
And the younger you start, the better chance you'll have of success.
The secret is you don't have to save the whole million dollars.
You just save enough to let compound interest work its magic.
>> Welcome back to the season finale of Investor.
I'm here with the three finalists, each of whom is trying to save a million dollars.
Let's jump right into it.
Stash, what's your strategy?
>> I'm going to bury my money and dig it up when I need it.
>> And how is that supposed to help your money grow?
>> I'll just go on more game shows.
>> An interesting strategy, although I don't think you're going to be very successful.
In the red, Kelly, how are you going to save your money?
>> I'm going to buy new clothes and fast cars.
Anything to make me look cool.
>> That sounds like a good way to spend a million dollars.
>> You got to spend money to make money.
>> I don't think you really understand that phrase.
>> Whatever.
I'm going to look so cool, people are just going to give me the million dollars.
>> Okay.
And finally, we have J.T.
J.T.?
>> I'm going to put my money in high-yield CDs and other long-term investments.
>> And what?
You're going to drive a practical car?
>> I want my money to work for me.
I don't want to have to work for the whole amount.
I'm going to save a million whether I win or not.
>> The player most likely to save a million dollars is...
J.T.!
( cheers and applause ) Congratulations on being this season's number one Investor!
>> To save a million dollars, you first need to change your mind-set from a spending mentality to a saving mentality.
>> It can be pretty easy to spend money and kind of hard to save it.
It should be the other way around.
>> Yeah, but first you need that money, Austin.
>> Okay, well, maybe you have an allowance.
Maybe your Aunt Patricia gives you money sometimes.
Maybe you have a job.
>> I work at Bizaburger.
>> Oh, very cool.
French fries.
Your next step is to open up a separate account with no connection to a debit card.
>> Why?
>> Oh, well, it makes it slightly harder to spend money.
>> Next, set a goal.
Put aside money, something like each week.
Or maybe even each month.
>> I make a deposit into my savings account every Friday.
>> Oh, very cool.
>> Mm-hm.
>> Also, if you're paid electronically, you can have some of that money wired to your account so you won't even miss it.
>> Thanks.
>> And after you've saved up enough money in this account, try transferring it into investments that return a higher profit.
Something like a Certificate of Deposit or a Mutual Fund.
>> The point is you don't actually have to save a million dollars.
You just have to start saving when you're young, and it eventually grows into a million.
>> So that means the most important thing for you to do is stop spending.
>> You want to know how I stop spending and start saving?
>> How?
>> I eat my friend's French fries.
>> All right, listen up, lady, gentlemen, I'm not getting any younger.
I need to fund my retirement account.
The younger I start, the more time I have to save a million dollars.
>> Where you going to get the money to put into this, uh, retirement account?
>> First, I'm going to cut expenses.
We need to plug the sieve, as our former Godfather, Norman Rigatoni, used to say, may he rest in peace.
>> May he rest in peace.
>> Rest in peace.
>> Anyways, I plan to take the money I save on yous three and put it into a special savings account.
Once there is enough money in that account, I plan to invest into accounts that return higher interest.
Soon I will have a rather large nest egg.
>> I heard that Johnny the Shark is offering three percent returns on savings.
You might be able to talk him into four percent.
>> Four percent?
That's kid stuff.
At my age, I need to make investments for a higher percentage return.
>> But, Boss, the higher the possible return, the more you put your money at risk.
>> Hello?
Risk is my business!
Now back to cutting my expenses.
Yous are going to carpool to the next heist, you hear me?
>> Hey!
>> Really, Boss?
>> And you're going to do something else to save money.
No more lunch at Carlucci's.
>> No more baked ziti?
>> And you... no more mani-pedi's.
>> But, Boss, we's talking about my nails here!
>> You're all making sacrifices.
Besides, I've asked Carlo to take care of your nails.
>> Carlo?
>> Yeah.
Check mine out.
>> ( screaming ) >> ( screaming ) >> I'm Hannah... >> Hi!
>> ...and by the time I'm 65, I'll have a million bucks.
I've found that it's quite possible to become a millionaire if you start investing when you're young and just take little steps, because when you're older, you will become a millionaire.
My grandpa was really the beginning of all this planning for my retirement.
So it was his idea for us to set up this Web site to educate people about Roth IRAs.
The IRA Kids Web site we started a couple of years ago for the purpose of mostly educating kids on how they can save for their future.
Roth IRAs are retirement accounts.
A Roth IRA, you pay taxes in the beginning, and it's not tax deductible.
But then, when you do retire, there's no taxes on that, meaning all the interest you've earned is tax-free.
In a Roth IRA, all your deposits need to be earned income.
This could be through a job or for chores around the house that you get paid for.
For example, I save by working at a bank, but my younger friends who aren't able to have jobs, they do different activities such as shoveling driveways, babysitting siblings or neighbors, mowing lawns, and washing cars-- little things here and there that can really add up.
If I deposit $25, maybe $50 a month into my Roth IRA, through compound interest I could become a millionaire.
Compound interest is where your money grows.
If you take your $500 deposit and let it grow over one year, if you have ten percent interest, you would have $550.
But if you let that grow again without adding any more payments, you would get $55, which is ten percent, and it keeps growing and growing and growing.
Compound interest can be explained like a snowball.
Over time, you add interest like you add snow, and your money grows and grows.
An IRA Kids Club is really just a bunch of friends hanging out together learning how to invest, supporting each other through investing.
Different activities you might be able to do could be creating games to play with groups of pennies to show how your interest is growing.
Every time you come to the meeting, you could get a an extra roll of pennies, and that grows and grows and grows.
So if you were to walk into your bank today to open up your Roth IRA, you'd need a minimum deposit of $500.
You could go up to a teller and ask them to direct you to a bank manager or someone to up open accounts and they could help you out with your Roth IRA.
The most important thing is start now, because if you wait 20 years when you have a job and you're investing then, you just lost 20 years of compound interest.
So starting early is how you're going to become a millionaire.
The most important thing my grandpa's taught me about money is that saving isn't hard to do.
Hey, Biz Kid, time is on your side.
Don't blow it, STOW it.
>> Hi, I'm Capitalist Peg, and if there's one thing I know, it's compound interest.
>> Hola.
>> Speaking of no interest, Brian what's up?
>> Hey, Peg!
I want to open a Roth IRA savings account and use the power of compound interest to put me on the road to a cool million.
>> Brian that's a great idea!
Start young and you won't have to work for me your whole life.
Now, get me a Danish.
>> One of the best ways to make a million dollars is to use the power of compound interest.
>> I prefer the power of the Force.
>> Ah, but compound interest is a force to be reckoned with.
>> By putting your money in a savings account, you'll earn interest.
>> That interest adds to the original amount.
Then that new amount earns interest.
>> Before long, you're earning interest on your interest.
>> That's compound interest.
>> Compound interest makes money, and the money money makes makes more money.
>> In the first few years, not much happens, but over time, the growth of your money really kicks in.
>> But you've got to start young and put your money into either accounts or investments that earn higher rates of interest.
>> So let's say that Devon at 15 years old puts a $1,000 into an account that's tax-deferred and earns eight percent interest.
So he puts it into the account for 55 years until he's 70, so he's put in $$55,000, but because of compound interest, he's made a million!
>> I'll be dead by then.
>> Well, if you're not, you'll need that million.
>> Now let's say Norma, Biz Kids Line Producer, let's say that she doesn't start saving until she's 30 years old.
This means that she has to save $3,500 dollars every year until she's 70 years old if she wants to make a million dollars.
That's a total investment of $140,000 dollars.
So both Devon and Norma have saved a million dollars, but Norma had to invest almost three times as much just because she started saving later.
>> So the trick is to start young.
And if you can find a return that's higher than eight percent, you can potentially turn your investment into a million dollars even faster.
>> But remember, higher rates of return carry higher risks and you have a greater chance of losing all your money.
>> Really, you should talk to a financial advisor before you get started.
>> I'm going to get 40% return on my savings because I'm going to be a millionaire by the time I'm 27.
>> Good to see you're starting young.
>> Actually, I'm going to save up to ten million.
>> Well, then you can loan me some money.
>> Sure.
20% interest.
>> Ouch!
But he's... he's so small.
>> I'm Jordan.
My savings strategies have helped me go the distance.
I was 13 when I started my business.
I started Buttons by Jordan by combining my love for art and desire to earn some money.
I received a $500 loan from my parents when Buttons by Jordan was started, and it was used to buy factory-grade equipment to make the buttons.
My first big sale was with my football team, the HF Junior Vikings.
After my first three or four deals, I was able to pay that loan back.
Well, being an athlete, I was in contact with other athletes on my team, so it was easy to advertise about my business.
One day, my dad was driving home, listening to the radio, and he heard a promotion about Tavis Smiley's new book and he suggested we do a button-drop to his offices.
And a week later, we got a call.
They wanted to order 500 buttons with his book cover on there.
And then a week later, he ordered 5,000 buttons for his State of the Black Union event.
Attaining a short-term savings goal can get you off to a good start.
The 50/50 save strategy is basically saving for college.
I'm trying to get into the Ivy League, trying to get into top schools.
Part of my 60/50 savings plan is reinvesting in my business.
I do need to buy ink.
I need to buy different materials, and that's in the present or in the near future.
And that's part of my short-term savings goals.
Setting a long-term savings goal can help you in the long run.
The other 50 we invested into my college fund, and that is a long-term savings goal, because I do have a few more years in high school.
I still have a little more time to plan for college.
My dad always says if you fail to plan, then you plan to fail.
This means that if you don't already have a goal set in place, then you will be going nowhere.
You already have to have a goal set and you want to carry out that goal.
You can either do one deal for a million dollars or you can do a million one-dollar deals.
Either way, it equates to a million dollars.
So I think I'll be successful with my 50/50 strategy.
Ready, set, save Biz Kids.
>> All right, Jones, want to go over our re-entry coordinates one more time?
>> Yeah, give me one second.
I'm figuring out how much money I've made in the last five years in space.
>> Jones.
>> Hm?
>> We're in the same astronaut union.
We make the same amount of money.
>> This is true.
Um, but I've actually had my wages deposited directly into a CD, earning compounding interest.
>> Wait, what?
>> Uh, Artemis Seven?
>> A CD.
It's a Certificate of Deposit.
It's kind of like a special savings account that has a higher interest rate.
The only catch is you can't access your money for a certain period of time, but I figure that's perfect for me.
I'm going to be up in the Van Allen Belt for the next five years, so I might as well have my money earning more money.
>> You don't say?
>> I do say.
I made a friendly chunk of change.
Look at this.
>> Artemis Seven, this is Houston we need your re-entry coordinates.
>> In a minute!
>> So, Cooper, how's your, uh, money working for you?
>> Oh, you know, it's not really doing too much.
Just sort of sitting there.
I wish I'd known about CDs five years ago.
>> Yeah, sorry about that.
I guess I, uh, spaced out.
>> Uh, Artemis Seven, do you read me?
>> Oh!
>> Oh, oh, oh!
>> My name is James, and I'm saving and investing my way to financial independence.
>> Sorry!
>> So there's two ways to make money.
The first way is to earn it.
Go out and deliver newspapers.
You know, get a job.
Whatever.
The second way is to make passive income.
Passive income is when your money is working for you.
So I want to be investing in things where I can earn interest so I'll be making passive income.
My uncle got me a book about finance.
It was specifically written for teens and it really sparked my interest in it.
I think I was like, eight or nine when I first opened a savings account.
I just put like, you know, 70 bucks in it or something.
And then when I got a little older and had a paper route, then I started putting the paper route money in the savings account.
>> Thank you.
>> There are a variety of reasons you should open a savings account.
First of all, you get paid interest for having a savings account.
Interest is money paid to you by the bank based on the amount of money you've deposited.
With a savings account, I was making somewhere a little bit less than one percent.
That was just not making very much interest on that, so I started looking around.
I finally had enough money to meet the minimum balance for a Certificate of Deposit.
I promised to keep my money at the bank for a certain amount of time.
I've been making a heck of a lot more interest.
When I opened the Certificate of Deposit, I was making between four and five percent, so that was a pretty significant increase.
Today, interest rates are kind of bad, so now I'm looking at getting into an index fund where I'll be investing in the stock market or the bond market, and I'll be able to make better interest.
An index fund is an investment in a mutual fund that invests in a whole bunch of stocks all of the same type.
There's index funds that invest in every stock in the New York Stock Exchange.
There's index funds that invest in every bond you can buy.
But with an index fund, the odds of any single thing going south are going to impact you a lot less, because you own so many different stocks.
Saving early, saving often, and investing is important, because that's what you need to do to become wealthy and achieve financial success.
I realized how important it was to start saving money at a young age.
That's what inspired me to create a financial literacy program for young kids.
Each lesson has a video, an activity, a class discussion, and also comes with lesson plans.
The percentage you earn on your savings can make a huge difference in how quickly your savings can grow.
>> Welcome back to the Biggest Gainer, the show that drops your debt and increases your bottom line.
Eight months ago, Max came to us with very little income and massive expenses.
Max, how's it going?
>> Well, at first it was hard eliminating fast food and taking the bus to my job.
>> But?
>> But then when I started working a second job and seeing my savings increase, it just started to make it all worth it.
>> Anything besides more work?
>> I took advantage of Certificates of Deposit and got my money earning more interest.
>> Well, Max, it's time to put your wallet on the scale.
Max, your starting savings were two dollars, and you now weigh in at... ...$1,600.50.
That's an increase of... >> Yes!
Yes!
Thank you so much!
Thank you, thank you so much!
>> So you want to STOW your way to a million dollars.
"Save", "Use time to compound interest", "Outgoing expenses cut", and "Work more".
>> I still think WITS is better.
"Work," "Interest," "Time," "Save".
>> I'm going with MAC Daddy million.
"Make more", "Account for saving it", "Compound interest".
>> While you three were arguing, I came up with a new acronym-- YTAL.
>> YTAL?
>> Yeah.
"You Three Are Losers".
( laughing ) >> Ow!
>> ♪She's Biz Witch, that scheming witch, the nastiest ♪ witch in town.
She's Biz Witch, and let me tell ♪ ya, she's a... >> ( cackling ) Let's see what the Biz Witch sees.
( cackling ) Eh... >> Hey, sis, what're you going to do with all that money from your after-school job?
>> Put in savings and make it work for me.
>> What?
No!
This can't be happening.
>> Wow, saving it?
That's smart.
>> That's not smart!
That's terrible!
( growling ) >> Yeah, I'm starting young and using the power of compound interest to save a million dollars.
>> No, no, no!
She's starting young.
Where did she learn about compound interest?
I never knew about this!
>> Compound interest, huh?
>> Yeah, I'm going to save so I don't end up old and green and poor like that ugly Biz Witch.
>> Oh, I hate those kids, oh!
>> Sometimes becoming a millionaire isn't about compounding your money.
>> It's about compounding your time also.
>> Put your mindset into making money to put into savings.
>> Sure, video games are fun, but they don't help you focus on making money.
>> Unless you're thinking of how to make money in the video game business.
>> For the rest of us, maybe it would be better if we use that time to do things that generate money.
>> Do you have any chores around the house like gardening, vacuuming, taking out the trash, babysitting?
Put the word out that your services are available.
>> If your chore is to walk your family dog, find a neighbor with a dog and walk the dogs at the same time.
>> I have a friend that makes extra money doing computer repairs.
>> Lucrative.
>> The point is you can compound your time and put it to work for you to help you save a million dollars.
>> I compound my time by being an extra on this show.
>> Really?
Is the pay good?
>> Not bad, but the food is great.
>> Awesome.
Free lunch!
>> Yeah!
>> We're the Pavelkas and we love... We're the Pavelkas... We're the Pavelkas and we're saving for our future.
>> To be on a farm, it's really fun, because we can have animals-- horses and chickens and goats and whatnot.
So... and then most of the animals we have here bring us money.
>> We turned our chores into a business.
>> This is my all-natural handmade soap.
This is peppermint, and I give ten percent of my profits to charity.
>> I board horses, which means I give temporary shelter to horses.
>> I have a business taking care of dogs.
This one's pretty easy... and this one's not.
I import and sell Peruvian jewelry.
>> This is my sunflower seed business and I like eating them and that cuts into my profit.
>> Time is definitely money.
What the meaning of that is that you can't just waste time, because if you think about it, if you're wasting time just doing... playing video games, whatever, you could be working on a business and making money instead of just wast... just wasting your time playing video games.
I mean, it's not that important if you get a high score.
It's more important to save for your future and actually have money to be proud of.
>> I had a dog walking business and I also had a paper route.
I walked dogs and did my paper route at the same time and made double the money.
>> Chickens, they lay our eggs, and they're nice too.
How we compound... or compounded our time last summer was we... me and my sister were out working in the fields while my sisters were babysitting.
Then we came home, we all helped babysit together so we were doing kind of two jobs at once.
They were both fun.
>> If you can do two businesses at once... yes, you can.
Like, Amanya was doing her seed business and also doing a popcorn business at the same time.
And I can do the goat business and I can board a horse at the same time.
And this way, we're compounding time.
>> Every year, we write up a family budget and we talk about what we're going to spend, and we normally don't spend more than what we need, and we always plan out what... if we need to spend money, how we're going to do it.
>> I like the getting money part.
>> What I'm tempted to spend money on is little knick-knacks or toys, but you'll just forget about them in a couple of weeks, so they're not that important.
And think about it.
Do you really need another bridle?
And if the answer's no, then don't get it.
I don't need another bridle.
>> We have a special percentage rule about when we earn money.
Ten percent we're allowed to spend and then ten percent is charities or organizations and then 80% we save, we put in the savings account.
>> If it's in the savings account, we won't be so tempted to spend it all the time.
Having a bunch of businesses will help me reach my savings goal.
>> Right now, with my earnings, I'm trying to pass up my brother and sister.
>> When you don't spend money, that means you're saving more, and that's what we like to do.
>> Whoo-hoo!
>> We're Biz Kids!
>> Well, Max is currently in first place with just Jill to weigh in.
Jill, you came to the show with practically no savings, living paycheck to paycheck.
What changed?
>> Well, I cut up my credit cards and I reined in my spending.
>> That's amazing.
Anything else?
>> I started to pay myself first to reach my savings goals.
>> Well, Jill, it's time to put your wallet on the scale and see your new bottom line.
You started with one dollar.
You now have... ...$2,075.36.
>> Oh, oh my... oh my... oh my gosh, I did it!
I can't believe I did it!
( applause ) I did it!
I won!
I won!
I beat you!
I did it!
I can't believe it!
I'm the Biggest Gainer!
I did it!
Yes, I win!
>> Even though this show is about saving your way to a million dollars, it's not really about the million.
It's about saving your way to a financially secure future.
>> Maybe just half a million or even $20,000.
>> So if you really want to make it to seven figures, maybe STOWing your way to a million dollars isn't such a bad acronym after all.
>> How about STORM your way to a million bucks?
"Save", "Time", "Outgoing money in check", "Make more"... >> And the "R"?
>> Uh, "Reinvest your profits"?
>> How about MOIST?
"Make more", "Outgoing in check", "Interest compounds", "Save" and it "Takes time".
>> Wait, wait.
So you would rather have a MOIST million than a cool million?
That's just disgusting.
>> All right, can you do any better than that?
>> Yeah, I'm going to tell you two to STOW it while I gather my WITS about me and storm out to make my first MOIST MAC-Daddy million.
>> ♪ MAC-daddy millions, MAC-daddy millions, ♪ MAC-daddy... >> In order to save a million dollars... ( laughing ) >> I've actually had my wages directly defunden... >> Which language are you speaking?
>> I don't know.
>> ( speaking gibberish ) >> Again!
>> Outgoing exp... >> No!
No!
>> The player most likely to save a million dollars wiz... >> He said, "Wiz"!
( laughing ) >> See what I do?
I do this with my face.
Right here.
Just like that.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
>> I...
I should do it again, I think.
I did it... >> Be-bout MAC-Daddy million.
'Bout MAC-Daddy million.
>> Okay.
>> 'Bout MAC-Daddy million.
>> Word.
>> Need some more bites of Biz?
>> Check out our Web site.
>> If you have your own business, we'd lovto hear about it.
>> Plus, we have resources that can help you.
>> Just click on bizkids.com.
>> And let's get down to business.
>> Some Biz Kids business.
( metal guitar solo ) >> Production funding and educational outreach for Biz Kids is provided by a coalition of America's credit unions, where people are worth more than money.
A complete list of individual credit union funders is available at wxxi.org.
>> Every day, America's credit unions help members with their financial needs and with programs like Invest in America.
It's only fitting that credit unions support Biz Kids because financial education is what we do.
Learn more at lovemycreditunion.org.
Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org


- Home and How To

Hit the road in a classic car for a tour through Great Britain with two antiques experts.












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