[Music] good evening and welcome to doctors on call I'm Dr Mary Owen associate dean of Native American Health and director of the center of American and minority Health at the University of Minnesota medical school I'm also a family physician for the Fond du Lac band of Lake Superior Chippewa and I'm your host tonight for our program on indigenous Health the success of this program is very dependent on you the viewer so please call in your questions or email them to ask at wdse.org the telephone numbers can be found at the bottom of your screen our panelists this evening include Roxanne delil dean of indigenous and academic Affairs at Fond du Lac tribal and Community College Arne vayno MD family physician at the Manoa wind clinic on the Fond du Lac Ojibwe reservation and Ricky Defoe Elder and pipe carrier in Ojibwe country our medical students answering the phones tonight are Zaza greensky from The Fond du Lac reservation Nehemiah Olson from the International Falls and James Sharp from Glencoe Illinois and now on to tonight's program on indigenous health thanks for joining us this evening we have a very special show many people are not aware of all the different misconceptions that exist about Native Americans and one of those areas that most of that many of the misconceptions exist are in health so this evening's show the first ever is where we get to discuss some of the some of the ways different ways that indigenous people Envision Health many people for some reason probably because of the way that our history is taught are not aware that Native Americans have been practicing medicine for 10 000 years or longer in some areas or indigenous people have been practicing for thousands of years so tonight on tonight's show we get to hear from this amazing panel of experts who practice locally on how they perceive Health how they perceive indigenous Health how they take care of people in our community tonight I'm going to start with you Dr vinyl I understand you would like to make a statement at the very beginning and actually I learned that from Google since Ricky Defoe um firstly tobacco so tobacco is a is a Sacrament and we and we give it um we offer it when we do ceremonies and when we ask something of somebody when we honor somebody but we give we give a sama and um I just wanted all of us to have this this is apacos again so this is traditional tobacco this is the inner bark of Red Willow and I collect this in February but tobacco it seems weird for a physician to be handing out tobacco when it's caused so much damage but but tobacco a SEMA is one of our most powerful traditional medicines and it gets used for everything and when it gets misused it's so powerful that it causes it causes a lot of diseases COPD and Cancers and and um you know so um but I just wanted to start that way and I wanted to start especially with um Ricky and Roxanne here both who I've learned so much from and just respect so fully it's important to start that way thank you Arnie you started off the show in a very good way and also I think you nicely highlighted highlighted one of the key differences between Western medicine and many indigenous forms of medicine and that's this reciprocity and this recognition of the people around you and and reaching out to them and and making that bond between us so Roxanne how do you view given what Arnie just covered for us and and showed us about a different way to view medicine how do you in general see medicine or see Health in Native communities or or how do you view Health yeah is it different from the way it's normally thought of in Western culture oh most definitely okay um when first of all with my with my brother my nephew here offering tobacco it it is our very first medicine it's the very first thing that we use it's that very first um and I I like how you use the word sacrament because that's kind of how we think about it that um this one is the communicator between one spirit being and another spirit being and so when we think of health health is a holistic thing and it exists not only in the physicality of the human being but in the spirit of the human being so from one spirit being to another spirit being we communicate our our desires our needs our wants with each other hey so so health-wise health is is far more in the way that I think about it holistic it's a it's an emotional it's a physical it's a spiritual all of that is all combined when we think about health and this is a part of your traditional teachings thank you Ricky do you have more thoughts on that or how do you perceive health or what's what's good health good health is a good feeling I think we have to understand the world that we're in first and foremost is that it we live in a very violent Society a very sick Society called America and when we Center ourselves in that we know that we will be sick so our our challenge is to is to write ourselves in that world to become healthy so that's first and foremost because our re our reactions to those conditions imposed Upon Us in the sick Society are normal reactions so to be healthy we say in our community if one person is not healthy then our whole Community is sick so then we have to help each other in reciprocity and becoming healthy as a community and that's very powerful isn't born that way we're not born unhealthy most most often and it's something that that occurs after being surrounded it occurs after the breathing and the eating and the the being within that hey so it kind of permeates in that way it permeates Us in in many different ways yeah thank you and these teachings that you're sharing with us right now are something that we're maintained by our ancestors over as I talked about in the beginning over thousands of years even when we were not allowed to practice these teachings they held on to them for us and they maintain our you know maintained our well-being because of what they did Arnie you trained as a western practitioner do you have any different views on this or how do you view this discussion um on what health is when I was applying for medical school I used to be a firefighter and I had to somebody measured my hair with a gauge off my collar and I had to cut it shorter than that all the time so when I applied for medical school there was a big part of me that wanted to wear a necktie which I cannot still tie and and black shoes and and uh in a suit and and I finally decided not to do that and and I started growing my hair along and when I applied for medical school my braid was that long and um but but it it but it was a breed and it felt right and and it felt like um when I first got into medical school I thought that there's so much information and one of the things they say in medical school that's like trying to take a drink from a fire hose that is just so much information and and I assumed that I would come out of the end of that process like a hay baler this takes all this material and it just makes them exactly the same and that's how we'd come out on graduation and um and it was such a beautiful thing to find that you know my traditions were stronger when I got out of medical school and have gotten stronger and it's it's through working with um Ricky and and um if anyone has ever heard Roxanne sing it goes right to the center right to the middle of you and and health is it is like Ricky was saying it's a community and it's it's it's all of us together um helping each other and some people have gifts that are I mean our gifts are different than each other we don't all do the same thing but when we do that collectively then um you know that's that's health and I see little kids four years old and and I talk to all kids I used to talk to 15 year olds about going to medical school and now I talk to them when they're brand spanking new if I deliver a baby we talk about medical school right on the spot and um four years old you know with a ear infection you know I've opened a big flip an atomic flip chart and I was like medical school lesson the first one yeah you know because but I want I want um and it I mean that seems almost ridiculous but you know but I want parents to know that I want those kids in medical school and I want them taken seriously as what they are they're just learning machines and um and we all have the ability to um to teach them things Ricky I recently saw some health are you contributing to the health and well-being of of our community at of all things the passing of one of our beloved members in the community um besides that besides being at that Community event where we all participated in um you know and we shared community and grew our health from that we had grew healthier from that being together of all places how else do you see do you contribute to the well-being in our community what's your role I think it's important to learn from elders and ones that I experience in life and the other were speaking about um we learn a lot not only about life but about ceremony we know we there's different areas of knowledge we've got uh intergenerational knowledge we've got some dream state knowledge we've got ceremonial knowledge and we've got some contemporary knowledges and some of the things that when we talk about Elders each one has a different knowledge so it's through relationships with those ones and in our language it's uh to transfer the knowledge from one to the next or to give something to the next in this case it's generational thing so as a community you have to have respect and you've got to have accountability so along with that is responsibilities and obligations so to to be able to have that knowledge is is something but you've got to implement that and you've got to have a pulse of the community you've got to be with the community you've got to be in there you've got to hear the cries you've got to hear see the tears you've got to listen to the laughter the jokes and things and you've got to be within there to be a part of that community so I think it's through relationships and um and respect and accountability to be a part of a community that that notion of our elders too eh we have held this knowledge for a very long time and so when when you first called me and asked me would I do this I thought well what the why me you know what if I got I can contribute to this you know I'm I'm actually um pretty new at walking this way when I think about it I've only walked this way maybe 30 years so it's only a small very small piece of my life that I've walked this way but I've hung around and I've listened and I've paid attention because our stories are filled with with these connections these these types of knowledge you say the elders that we sit with oh my goodness and I can think of so many of them right off the bat I think of Grandma Mary Butler and I I think of but the way we've done a barn I think of a wasabikaban I think of all these ones who are gone now and I think of the way in which they contributed to the health of our communities um they they all carried pieces and stories and songs because all of this is part of it um and and legends and they they held on to this and they Incorporated that into their life so much like us I I get to experience every so often I'll get a moment of where I know that I'm connected and everything's right and and I'm healthy from for about a second for about a split second you know all of a sudden I'm able to make that connection I think some of our old people could do that for extended periods of time and I think of um Donnie Dowd out in Michigan and I and and how it is and he's a bone healer he's a what they call a bone sucker hey and and how he does that healing and I and I think of um oh gosh all these people I I think of shake tent and I think of sweat lodge and I think of naming ceremonies and I think a funeral ceremonies and I think all of this is part of of what was handed down to us that connects us so deeply to to a line of people my grandmas to my grandmas to my grandma's and and even those Generations that were skipped okay it connects Us in that way and and that has so much to do with health as well you know because I think that it has to be connected to to who you are and when you when you can hook all of that together man you get little little moments you know everything's right in the world and I am I am okay um Uncle Badoo we're done a bun one time because in his life Ended as a result of um a cancer that he struggled with but for a very long time he lived with it he because he said and I and I remember it clearly the way he did this he said this sickness has no meaning in my body and he did this whole Mantra with today and it was the way he pushed it out but but the world is the world and it's hard to stay that way it's hard to stay in that and so he he eventually wasn't able to maintain it and so the sickness took took over it didn't take meaning in his body um but I think of that a lot Ricky you alluded to that as well or not alluded to it stated it outright that connection to community and then that to our lineage as well and all those stories that come with it the teachings that come with all of that so those are just some of the lessons that we get from indigenous medicine Arnie do you can you think of anything else that indigenous medicine has to teach Western medicine um just thinking about what Roxanna was talking about every every single morning doesn't matter if it's snowing or I'm late or it's freezing or it's raining um I do a ceremony in um and and I I connect and I do feel it and I um and at night sometimes they'll go out and I and when you're in the Stars you know outside in in the stars but realize that you're a part of it um it really does change the way I look at the world and it changes you know that a lot of people have said that you know if you think about the vastness of space you think about how insignificant we really are and we're into this little planet on the edge of the Galaxy and anybody that's seen um you know the James Webb Space Telescope pictures and the galaxies that are out there and you know just the small part of that we are you know and but we are a part of that and um and we are we are connected and we're connected through our language and you know I've taken um language classes with Ricky and with other people and um and everybody teaches things a little bit different but but what comes out of that is that our teachings and our lessons are in our language and our elders are so wise that that they they put those writing the words themselves they put a lot of our lessons and if you learn those words and you learn that language you know a lot of that stuff comes up you know we just lost a traditional healer a good one a really great one and um Ricky and I were talking about that but um Larry Aiken who was um you know one of our traditional people and taught a lot of people um he said that those those lessons aren't lost they're out there they've always been out there but we need to listen for them and Dan Jones before he died he took me aside and he said you need to go outside and you need to listen and you need to look everything out here is trying to tell you something and uh and I I take that to heart and I take that I take that to the clinic and I take that to the hospital with me what you said about the smallness of all of us reminds me of some of your teachings Ricky about humility and how we are no better than any of our other living relatives on this planet and and how that connects us to them and now that it broadens our community and also maintains our health but speaking of the language that you teach Ricky how you noticing it seems to me and just in general that there's more interest over the last I don't know several years in our language in our cultures and I know I'm thinking but I know that there's a Revival in my language as well are you seeing that in more people requesting this help for their health care as well more traditional Health Care yes absolutely there's definitely a a movement happening amongst the people in the spirit is moving uh I think to re-spiritualize a de-spiritualized society such as America from material to Spirit is in force and I think not only indigenous peoples are feeling that but also lots of other ethnicities are also feeling that and when we pursue the American dream we found out that we got extremely sick so again we have to return from the so-called enemy to come back and find our ways in in the language is a piece of that healing there's many other ways to heal we know it is this this place is full of sickness and uh it's it's it's all over but we have a challenge we have a real fight on our hands because our youth are our future and their deeply embedded in this culture that is very toxic a very violent a very racist sexist society that we live in and first and foremost I think that we know that we're in that mix so once we understand that then we can move forward um I think most often we know that we have to have the attention of our young people and we get that through ceremonies because oftentimes the technology is what pulls us away from our attention and there's so much information in the age of data and information that gets our children and pulls them away from us so there's a problem with that we recognize those problems we've identified those problems and so we're working but I think we have the answers we need to implement them on a grander scale and but there's so many social forces that work every day to compel our youth to do behave in ways because our feelings when we're depressed and we live in a racist Society our feelings manifest themselves in behaviors and we know that the thoughts then are what drive your words your words drive your actions your actions become your habits and your habits become your character and that then leads to your destiny so along those ways we've got to um intercept and Inter intervene on with our youth and we have hope and care for each generation deeply there's a question that someone from the audience asks us and what advice do you have for the young as they overcome these adversities adversities to Healing as that you know they we all know that we've seen our young people participate in Traditions but then once they hit a certain age they have they come up to that peer pressure and the social media and all of that so what do you say to the youth themselves to help help them get past all that and to see the healing in our Traditions they have to have that stick-to-itiveness and I think it comes with uh there's two things attachment and authenticity you have to feel belonged belonging to a group of people not only your family but extended family and in community and a nation and that was those social forces called colonialism and assimilation were strong and they compel their youth and many of our generations to to go towards sickness so I think we've got to that be attached and belong and and recognize that we were not only a part of a political entity but a part of a Nation a true nation and to be authentic then is to participate in that and be accepted when you're acknowledged and accepted in a nation that brings healing and when you have gratitude that also starts the healing process is already in place when you have that gratitude so we know we don't get that from the American society we we are and I'm not talking disparagingly so much about this American society but I know that it brings it's a toxic in a very sick Society so we have to understand that right not the people that live because anybody can see these healthier ways and hold these young people up and help you help them be healthy yeah that's what I was going to say just tell them to come back yeah just turn around yep and I've given tobacco to to patients and I just gave um just in the last couple of weeks gave some to a 20 year old that's been way off the path and and been in Correctional institutions and is in trouble and came back to see me and I gave him did I give you tobacco doctor Owen yes at the beginning okay so um and I gave him tobacco and I said you know you're coming here for you know for maybe an antidepressant medicine or something but what you really need is you need community and you need and I gave them tobacco I said this is what you need and you know this is you know the whole Clinic is made this whole thing is here I'm here I went to medical school for you you know as part of this this whole process and um in my brother yeah the most important message to them is that we're still here yeah and we're here for you we're still here um seek us out and here's the way you do that yeah um you know tobacco but but we're still here you know all your people are still here there are teachers that are still here there are holy people that are still here we have our own medicines we are still here so so don't don't be afraid to come look for us come look for us bring your tobacco we're we're still here you know and I think that's the most important message we can get across we are still here and so pick up whatever you threw on the side of the road that you Cast Away and um yeah pick it up and and work with it hey Uncle Uncle Porky when he when I got my pipe I said Uncle what do I do he says well my girl you put your tobacco in there you light it and you smoke it very simply we're still here it's still being done we still do this so so just seek us out there just come come look for us and it's not I'm not talking me or just us I'm saying us all of us you know come look we're still here we only have about 30 seconds left and someone did ask a really important question how can Western medicine practitioners incorporate traditional healing practices in the clinic um anything you know 30 seconds of wisdom you want to throw out there Arnie in particular care you know and just you know care to ask you know don't judge because some of the stuff is it's it's way different you know jawanim is a word that I like to use joanim is is unconditional love it's it's it's it's pity it's a whole bunch of things and not pity in a looking down at somebody way you know it's it's a compassion compassion I agree thank you mainly letting people know that they're part of that we're there for them that we're all part of this community together and that we're like you said we went to school for them thank you Arnie I want to thank our panelists Roxanne delil Dr Arne Vaio and Ricky Defoe and our medical student volunteers Jaja wanong green Sky Nehemiah Olson and James Sharp please join Dr Peter Nala next week for a program on upper extremity neck and back problems when his panelists will be Dr Chris Davies Dr Matthew Davies and Dr Sandy Stover thank you for watching and good night foreign [Music]