Making It Grow is brought to you in part by the South Carolina Department of Agriculture Certified South Carolina Grown helps consumers identify, find and buy South Carolina products.

McLeod Farms in McBee, South Carolina.

This family farm offers seasonal produce including over 22 varieties of peaches.

Additional funding provided by, International Paper and the South Carolina Farm Bureau Federation and Farm Bureau Insurance.

♪ [Making It Grow opening music] ♪ Well, good evening and welcome to Making It Grow .

We're so glad that you can join us tonight, and on almost every Tuesday.

We're here bringing you information about gardening and other topics that relate to what's happening in South Carolina's environment.

I'm Amanda McNulty.

I'm a Clemson Extension Agent, and we're a collaborative venture between SCETV and Clemson University.

I am so happy tonight to welcome David Coyle, who is a forester and a member of Clemson's family.

David, please tell us exactly what your duties are with Clemson.

>> Hi, Amanda, great to be here.

My duties are to do forest health and invasive species extension, so I take all the research that people do around the country and I translate it into something a little more digestible for our landowners, our land managers, and folks here in South Carolina to help them manage forest pests, tree pests, and all sorts of invasive species.

>> Okay, and we know that, boy, every time you turn around, there's always something new that's coming in, so you have a lot of job security, I think.

>> For better or worse, I'm afraid I do, yes.

Terasa Lott is always such a wonderful member of our crew.

She answers questions on our Facebook page, and I consider her a botanist now, she's so good at identification.

And then she also collects some wonderful Garden of the Week pictures for us, in addition to her normal daytime job as the Master Gardener Coordinator of the state.

Have you had time to find some pretty pictures to share with us this week Terasa?

>> Well, it's a good thing our viewers have, so let's take our virtual field trip and see what's going on around the state in yards, gardens, perhaps even inside the house.

We're going to begin in Myrtle Beach with a gorgeous camellia, bright pink, accented by white submitted by Susan Crow.

Then we will look at an Oncidium orchid, and that was shared by Philip Bainter.

Philip, you have given me an idea.

I think I need to add to my orchid collection.

Sharon Klein Bickford submitted her Lenten Roses, and I just really love the lighting in this particular photograph.

We'll finish up last but not least with our state flower yellow jessamine submitted by Wayne Stevenson.

Thanks to everyone for sharing what's going on around you.

Remember, we can't choose all of the photos to put on air, but you're welcome to look through our Facebook page, and don't be shy.

Submit your photos for Gardens of the Week.

If you can't post them to our Facebook page, you're welcome to email them to me as well.

Amanda?

>> And Terasa, I think you've told me, and I took some pictures for Sean, to try to hold my camera this way rather than up and down.

Is that correct?

>> That is correct, so perhaps it would not be a great idea for human subjects, because we want them to look taller rather than wider, but for onscreen pictures, definitely hold that camera long ways, horizontal, landscape oriented so that we can fill up the TV screen.

>> Okay, thank you so much.

Terasa, a lot of times you receive questions that people have heard about in the news or have seen in their own yard, and now that we've got - since we have David with us today, is there something that people seem to be interested in that he might have some expertise on?

>> There is.

You know, we always receive lots of questions.

I think people are just kind of curious beings.

We had a viewer in Charleston write in that he's been hearing a lot about Asian longhorned beetles and is wondering why these beetles are so troublesome.

>> David since it says Asian longhorned beetle, I guess this is not a native species, and we've talked to you a little bit about this before, but since it's been awhile, can you recap what's happening and the progress that we hope you've made with this pest?

>> Certainly, yeah.

The Asian longhorned beetle is a non-native species to South Carolina.

It is from various parts of China, and it made its way over here.

It's been in this country since first found in 1998 up in New York.

There's a number of infestations in various parts of the country.

There was one in Canada as well, and last May we found it here in South Carolina down in Charleston County.

There's been a large collaborative effort with Clemson Department of Plant Industry, USDA APHIS, South Carolina Forestry Commission, and then Clemson Research Extension.

We've all been down there trying to figure out how bad is it, where is it, and what we can do about it.

And what we know so far, we know that this particular infestation, believe it or not, has been here at least seven years.

We were able to do some science to look and see what time you can date some of the tree rings and see.

It's been here at least 7 years.

It's mostly just in Charleston County.

There's a little bit in Dorchester County, as well.

It's about 72 square miles of infested area, is what we have.

When you think about it, if it's been here that long, that's not that bad.

This beetle does not fly particularly well.

It's not that it can't, it just generally chooses not to.

It's a little bit lazy if you want to think about it that way.

But unfortunately, the way we can get rid of this beetle, is you have to cut down the infested trees and just destroy them.

Either chip them up, which is what we generally do.

They could be burned, but we also want to make sure people are not taking this firewood somewhere else.

That is likely how it got here, is through firewood, infested firewood.

So, if you're driving on Highway 17 and you see those '‘Don't Move Firewood' signs, that's why those are up there.

We really want to make sure people don't take stuff from point A to point B.

>> I think in the past, we feel like some other exotic pests have been spread through firewood, so we should always remind people: if you're going - and so many people are camping now and doing things, do not take your firewood with you.

Wait until you get to your destination and purchase local firewood there that is made available.

Is that correct?

>> That's absolutely right, Amanda.

We really want people to buy firewood locally.

Depending on where you go, sometimes they sell it in the campground, but there's almost always local folks selling firewood when you go to these places for your camping and your vacations.

>> David, we have a lot of things that maybe weakened trees or a lot of imported pests that are kind of a problem.

Why is this one such a dire situation?

>> Yeah, this was really unfortunate, Amanda, because it affects so many different tree species.

It really prefers the maples: red maple, silver maple, sugar maple.

We've seen some of those planted down there.

But it can also affect elms, sycamore, cottonwoods, willows, and several other species we have in this part of the world, so it's not like it just hits one thing.

It can hit a number of things.

Once the beetle lays it's egg on the outside of that tree and that larva burrows into the wood, it's really tough to kill because it's in a place in the tree where you can't get insecticides to it.

And the feeding from the larva, the larva can be pretty big.

They can be almost the size of your pinky.

They're a couple inches long, fairly thick, and they drill these tunnels through the middle of the wood, so it makes it look like swiss cheese inside there.

And what that does is really weaken the branches and stems, and every time it gets windy, you have big chunks of tree just falling off, and obviously this is a big, big issue, especially in places where people are living around parks, and that's why those trees need to be removed, to get rid of that beetle.

>> And as I understand, the federal government's involved, the state government's involved, all sorts of agencies, and you have permission, and in order to control this, you have to go in and examine trees on private property, because this is a threat that goes far beyond just individual homeowners.

<David> That's right.

This is a federally listed invasive species, which means it's a big deal, is what that means, and yes, the state and federal inspectors are inspecting within this quarantine zone.

They're inspecting every single possible host tree there, and when one is found to be infested, then it gets a mark and eventually it will be removed and destroyed.

<Amanda> Now, as I come to work from St Matthews to Sumter, and go through a lot of the Congaree wetlands and the Wateree wetlands, that seems to be a predominant place for these red maples, which I guess makes it harder for y'all to get in and do some of your work.

>> Right, you know, red maple trees in someone's yard are easy.

You can walk up to it, you can take a look, and it's either there or not.

There's a lot of area down there in that infestation zone that is quite swampy, and it's been wet for weeks at this point, and it seems like it just finally stopped raining a few days ago.

It makes it very difficult to get in there and A. find the trees that are actually infested.

It's really tough to do that, especially if it's raining.

You pretty much can't survey because if the trunk of the tree is wet, you can't see the damage well enough to be able to tell, and then even if it stops raining, if they're standing water there, it's hard to get around, there's snakes, there's all the other stuff that people have to deal with.

Then there's the other issue, which is well, okay, you've gotten through the swamp, and you found all these trees that need to come out.

How are you going to get them?

If it's in a yard, you back the truck up, you saw it down, you put it through the chipper, You won't do that on a 20 acre swamp.

We're still a lot of research that we're involved in right now to see if there's different things we can do that don't involve bringing equipment in there, and so we're starting some of that research right now, hopefully know more by later this summer or this fall if we have some different methods that we can use for managing this thing.

<Amanda> David, thank you for sharing this new information, and for letting us know that we do feel like there's a chance that we will be successful here in South Carolina as you have in other places, and I hope you'll let us come back and get an update in the near future.

>> Absolutely, I'd be happy to.

Thanks, Amanda.

>> Hang around I think we're going to try to talk to you later about something else.

>>Alrighty.

>> We have been trying to find places that weren't too far away where our crew could travel safely during these times of restrictions and I have a friend who has a fascinating farm.

where I have spent the last 30 years going for wonderful picnics and suppers and nature walks and I'd like to share my friendship with Mary Desportes and her wonderful farm with you now.

♪ [upbeat country music] ♪ Well, I'm in Calhoun County visiting with my good friend Mary Desportes at her farm, Doodle Hill.

And this has been a part of my life for 30 years now.

Mary, thank you so much for letting me come today and what I love about you is that I found somebody who wasn't prissy like me.

[laughs] >> Thank you Amanda.

I'm not prissy.

<Amanda> Well, I meant not prissy because I'm not prissy >> We're not prissy.

<Amanda> But Mary, you came here you grew up in Columbia and we took riding from the same wonderful person.

>> That's right.

Ms. Beltzer, outside of Columbia on the Bluff Road.

>> But you really kept with it.

>> Yes and I worked for her through college and then she passed away and we got to run the farm.

My roommate and I got to run Hickory Top, which was we were pretty young for that but Mr. Beltzer let us run it as long as we stayed out of his pocket.

[laughs] >> Then you decided that you wanted to have your own place and you were married at the time and started looking around and found this property and it's called Doodle Hill because it's so sandy and that was actually a plus, I think.

<Mary> it's great footing for horseback riding.

It drains really fast, so you can ride pretty much an hour after the thunderstorm goes by.

It's safe.

It's not slippery.

It's not rocky.

It's real healthy for horses.

<Amanda> You also have a pretty interesting house.

My house is pretty old but yours is more interesting than mine.

Tell us about your house.

<Mary> My house was the Congaree Baptist Church and they were building a new sanctuary and we saw it going up and we asked what they were going to do with the old wooden church and they said they thought they would raise it and tear it down.

So we asked if we could buy it.

We bought it for a dollar a square foot and moved 5 miles essentially and that was back in the day when that was easy to do <Amanda> It's been so much fun and there's a pond in the front yard and so we have children about the same age.

We just kind of lived out here with you a lot of the time.

<Mary> Thanks.

It was a lot of fun.

<Amanda> Over the years, how many kids do you think you've taught how to ride?

<Mary> I'll just say a few hundred, Amanda since I've been teaching professionally since I was about 18.

We have 6 school ponies, now and then we get to use a few of our boarder's horses when they're not being used for them.

<Amanda> The horse that you let me ride earlier today because it's been a long time since I've been on a horse is one that's known as a school pony, I think.

<Mary> He's a school horse.

And his name is John and he's 25 and has been working here his whole life.

<Amanda> One of the things is you're so kind to your animals.

You're so good hearted and you found that there's a special food - I helped you put some out sometimes.

It's kind of pre cooked that really has made a difference in the longevity and health of these older horses.

<Mary> It really has I think a horse's teeth or any maybe herbivore, their teeth are their life, they can't live without having really good teeth.

This food is pre-cooked and it's called - It's sold by lots of names but equine senior is how you find it in the store.

<Amanda> But it's always been fun because there's always been some new animal coming.

The latest ones are something you tried once before but now I think is going to be more successful are some goats.

Tell us why it's good to have goats here and why these goats are particularly good.

<Mary> Well these goats are dairy goats and they're a little bit easier to manage and handle because they're used to being handled as opposed to briar goats that just clean up land.

I really got them for cleaning.

I don't like to weed eat.

It's my least favorite job.

So, they have a few projects around that they've been working on for a month now.

I've had them a month.

<Amanda> We've got some feathered friends out here, a nice little flock.

<Mary> I do, I have about 20 chickens.

There around the corner back there and then we have two old geese that have been here forever.

He's lived a long time.

<Amanda> The thing that I just find so fascinating is you've got a little herd of cows and it's a special kind of cow Mary.

<Mary> It is.

They're called Dexters.

Well, I have one milk cow, also.

But my Dexters are beef cows and they're small.

They're hearty.

They stay fat very easily and they're completely grass fed just because they don't need grain.

I give them grain to keep them friendly and to be able to catch them if I need to.

<Amanda> In addition to all these kind of farm animals you got some regular animals that you might find at somebody's house.

But a lot of them have a job to do, especially the dog, So let's talk about those.

<Mary> I do.

I have two Great Pyrenees, where one is actually part Anatolian and then I have just a watch dog but the Great Pyrenees actually do have a job because they protect all the other animals.

And they're just amazing.

What they do, they stake out the farm in different places and I think this puppy will stay with the goats.

We'll see about that in a few months.

I had to have that because so many stray dogs would come through and kill chickens or kill your - my first goats got killed.

And it was pretty tragic for my children.

Not only stray dogs we also have coyotes.

I haven't heard a coyote since I think the coyotes just know this is where the great Pyrenees are and they never fight It's never like one comes back bloody or anything.

They just bark.

<Amanda> but then we also have a beauty queen dog, <Mary> Oh Tina Fay.

Yes and she was well her mother's name was Tiny.

And Tiny had a "Tinasty" because she had two litters All my friends took the babies before they were ever really even born.

They're cute little dogs.

They're smart.

And Tiny wandered up with her boyfriend years and years ago.

Tiny is deceased but the "Tinasty" still exists.

<Amanda> "Tinasty", yeah and so it's just wherever we are there's somebody warm and sweet to love on out here.

[laughs] When I look around and think of what it was like when I first started coming out here to see you, this was all much more open and you got these little cedar trees from the forestry commission I guess they were about <Mary> Yeah.

<Amanda> 10 inches tall.

<Mary> Yeah.

I think we got 500 the first time <Amanda> And here we are this sandy soil, that doesn't hold much water and these trees are magnificent.

They're so important for wildlife.

<Mary> They're full of birds at night.

If you drive through at night you'll hear them I don't like to do that actually because they flee and you hear them.

But they also are good wind protection.

They wind break through all over the farm.

<Amanda> I think if only people could look at something like this and think why in the world do you plant those Leland cypress to die when you could plant an eastern red cedar.

<Mary> Every Leland on the planet is dying [laughs] They split and fall and do all kinds of things.

<Amanda> And then lately it's been fun to come out here because you got a little I don't know how you found time to gather all these little rocks and make this beautiful little native cool little specialty things.

Tell me how did that all start.

<Mary> Well, when I was little my brother made a fish pool in the backyard and I was four and I guess I was his helper.

I thought it was the most fun thing ever and we did it with cement back then.

Now you have nice liners.

It's easier but digging in this sand it didn't take me very long to dig those pools really.

I slept well those nights but it was a lot of fun and then the rocks, really, that and the liner was the only real expense and that's just for frogs and tadpoles and bugs.

<Amanda> Yeah.

So, it's not a mosquito breeder thing because it's got frogs and tadpoles.

<Mary> It had mosquitos the first two weeks it filled up with water and I haven't seen the mosquito larva in there since.

<Amanda> Yeah.

<Mary> There are natural predators.

<Amanda> And so that just reminds us when we're out here at night we hear owls calling.

What do they say - Who cooks for you?

<Mary> Who cooks for you?

<Amanda> We hear the frogs And there's just so much that goes on out here.

And because of Mary Desportes, everybody in South Carolina knows that Bobby Desportes was one of the great naturalist of South Carolina.

<Amanda> You know what, Mary?

I think you're carrying on his tradition.

I want to thank you for letting me come to be a part of the extended Doodle Hill farm family.

<Mary> Just love having you, Amanda.

We've been best friends for life.

♪ [steady music] ♪ >> Well I know everyone will be glad to know that Mary's new puppies are growing well and behaving themselves, I think.

I was visiting with Briggs Elementary School and Jeff Murrie, who's their former school coordinator had some cardoon and he gave me these beautiful cardoons.

They look like chicken feathers leaves to use and then I had some Edgeworthia in the yard.

I often think that Edgeworthia is not very fragrant, but once you're wearing it on your head it turns out it's quite fragrant, indeed.

Terasa, while we have an expert with these invasive species and things is there another question we can try to pick David's mind about?

>> Yes, one of our viewers wrote in about hearing about the Bradford Pear Bounty Program and is confused I thought I had no idea Bradford pears can be a problem.

And wants to know what the world is going on, <Amanda> Okay, well.

David I think originally they were brought in and supposed to be sterile and just this great landscape tree but What is the situation that's happened?

And why is it a problem?

>> Right.

you're probably seeing these white flowering Callery pears all over the road sites across South Carolina right now.

It's peak flower season.

Bradford pears are a grafted cultivar.

A Bradford by itself will not make a viable seed but unfortunately if it gets pollen from any other Pyrus calleryana - that's the same species - if gets any pollen on there the Bradford in your yard can make a viable seed.

And as you probably have seen there's those trees all over the place right now.

So there's just so much pollen out there.

Every Bradford pear that is in the yard is making viable seed that a bird will eat and fly around.

Birds do what they do.

They poop it out That's why we get these Callery pears growing up everywhere.

<Amanda> And why are they such a danger?

<David> The big issue with Callery pears, there's two main issues.

They crowd out all the native vegetation.

They've grown really thick patches and it's tough to get in there.

A lot of wildlife won't even use it.

But they have these really large thorns on them and they can be anywhere from a half inch long up to two even three inches long.

I've seen these thorns can puncture tires.

They can break the skin.

I even visited one horse farm in the upstate and they had some baby little horses that were playing and they ran into a Callery pear tree and they had cuts all over their little horse faces.

So it can be a danger to the animals to humans and it's a large nuisance tree that the people put a lot of effort into trying to get rid of.

<Amanda> And if people have them in their own yard, they can hire an arborist to take that.

If there's a small one, they can get in touch with their local extension agent and find out if there's a way to remove it themselves and use glyphosate in an approved manner to control it.

<David> Right.

We always recommend folks use a licensed arborist and licensed pesticide applicator if you're removing trees, any of that thing.

<Amanda> David we thank you for all this information that you shared and we look forward to having you come back and keeping us up to date on the health of our forest and sometimes how that spills over into our own landscapes.

The University of South Carolina is a place that is near and dear to me.

My mother worked there as a librarian and John Nelson leads tours of downtown on the arboretum which the horseshoe is.

But there are also things that the university does in using landscape topics to explain things that have happened in the past at the university, and we have a very interesting segment to share with you now.

♪ [melodious music] ♪ ♪ >> I'm speaking with Emily Jones.

Emily you are a landscape architect at the University of South Carolina.

And that's a big campus with a lot of things going on.

I admire you.

I can't keep my own little yard up.

You were very kind to meet with me the other day and talk to me some about the Desegregation Garden Project which you are very involved in.

So tell us about with whom you worked and how decisions were made.

To start with was it kind of an in house project Did you bring people in from outside?

Just kind of give us the background and from that aspect, please.

>> Sure.

It was a collaborative effort.

There was a large university committee, including wider community representation that planned a year long series of events commemorating the 50th anniversary of the campus' desegregation.

So, they were probably meeting early 2012 and then September 2013 was sort of the kickoff of that celebration and then the garden was dedicated the following spring.

But we had a small design team here in facilities.

It was led by the university architect, Derek Gruner and another architect and myself.

And we worked closely with the committee and followed their lead.

They had a clear sense of priorities of what they wanted the garden to represent but they gave us lots of creative free reign to share with them how we would give shape to their vision.

<Amanda> Emily I think that rather than make this a...massive intrusive... you can't miss it, garden, it was supposed to be a place where people might go and reflect on the feelings of everyone who was involved because desegregation was a very large issue then and it caused tensions and feelings on all sides and would be a place where we might reflect and try to come to an understanding of all the feelings involved with people, perhaps.

<Emily> That's right.

It was envisioned as a very contemplative space, but also one that fit into the natural everyday patterns of the campus and we wanted it to feel organically related to the pedestrian circulation and to be a natural gathering point.

But also to be imbued with a special emphasis and significance of the 50th anniversary of the desegregation >> And I suppose that the major piece that's not a plant, not of plant material is the tablet with the poem by Nikky Finney.

And remind us of what the name of that is and as some of the references that she has in there that might relate to just nearby buildings and things, please.

<Emily> Sure.

The poem is called "The Irresistible Ones" and she focuses on the three students themselves and the just the courage and determination that it must've taken for them to go through that experience.

And the location of the garden is right next to the Osborne Administration building.

And some of the most iconic images from 1963 involve the students coming in or leaving after registering for classes, coming out of the big grand entrance into the Osborne Administration building.

So the gardens' presence just to the north of the building is significant.

And the poem weaves together a lot of imagery talking about the great garnet door of Osborne and the students come knocking on that door and ultimately the door opens and opens to them and opens tremendous amount of opportunity for everybody and in one of the closing lines, she references the doors now garnet and black.

So it's just the language is - It's just a lovely piece to have on the campus.

<Amanda> And the location not only being next to Osborne but also the brick wall at the back of the garden if I'm not mistaken really reflects the history, the far back history of African Americans with the campus.

Doesn't it?

<Emily> Definitely, that is part of the historic horseshoe wall, which enclosed, really the core part of the campus and dates back to 1835 and 1836.

And it was a built by enslaved masons.

And is a pretty amazing piece that is still standing and it underwent a renovation about three or four years ago.

where all the brick was repointed and so hopefully that will stand for another 200 years.

<Amanda> And brick work is important, of course.

When I spoke earlier with your colleague, Elizabeth, we talked about when Havilah Babcock put the bricks, had the students come and pave part of the horse shoe.

And that they made reference to their affection and appreciation for the Black brick mason who came to help them by putting his initials in, although they were not allowed to do them in a contrasting brick, as they did with some of the other actual professors who were of course, White men.

But within the garden you use a subtle reference color of bricks and colors to talk about the fact that this was the first time that there was now diversity on the campus, I believe.

Explain how you did that, please ma'am.

That's right.

There are three pathways that lead into the center, circular area where the poem is engraved at on the monument.

And we just used a small detail, but we used a monochromatic brick at the beginning of these pathways and then slowly started transitioning to what they call flash brick, which gives you a variety of colors and that was just a subtle way to reference the increasing diversity of the campus which all started in 1963.

>> Then also the plant material itself is what you would expect.

There's some evergreen hollies.

There's a sasanquas.

Azaleas, the things that we all cherish in the south and again just to give you a sense of tranquility but you were very careful to protect one ancient shrub that's now a tree there.

<Emily> That's right.

I would hazard to just say it's a champion Tea olive tree because it actually forms a canopy.

It's limbed up.

It's probably 25 feet tall.

And was really the dominant plant in that area and so it was very important to give it a wide berth and again make sure that that's a part of campus for a long time too.

there is another set of plants that were specifically designed and included for symbolic purposes, I believe and you brought in a very famous South Carolina artist and artisan plants person, Pearl Fryar.

<Emily> That's right, Pearl Fryar contributed three Juniper topiaries to the garden and the symbolism in that, again, it was a trio of plants and that really was the focal point of the planting scheme.

Everything else was background And he wanted it to look nice, but really let the topiaries carry the day.

>> Emily I think it's a lovely spot I had actually been there and not knowing the significance of it until y'all told me all the factors involved and it is a - you can actually sometimes find a parking space through there if you've got quarters in your pocket.

And it's a lovely place to sit and I think as if you take the time to really pay attention to the things that are there it does encourage you to take a little bit longer to sit and enjoy the work that you did making it a tranquil place and then to enjoy the wonderful imagination and creativity of Nikky Finney and also with Pearl Fryar.

I want to thank you for sharing the history of this wonderful garden with us.

<Emily> Thank you.

♪ [melodious music] ♪ >> Well, today I'm speaking with Elizabeth West.

Elizabeth is the archivist.

Some people say archivist and some people say archivist at the University of South Carolina but I guess however you pronounce it, Elizabeth, you keep papers and historical things that have some historical importance related to the university.

Is that correct?

<Elizabeth> That's correct as the archivist for the university archives, we collect preserve and make accessible the official records of the university.

So things like correspondence of the president, board of trustees minutes other kinds of things are maps, photographs, publications, anything that documents the official actions of the university.

<Amanda> And I believe that you are located in the - I always called it the Caroliniana Library, but I think it's got a - Is it the South Caroliniana Library?

<Elizabeth> It is the South Caroliniana Library.

Many people do just refer to it as the Caroliniana.

>> Was that the first separate library building our university had in the United States?

<Elizabeth> It is the oldest freestanding academic library in the nation and was constructed in 1840.

>> Pretty interesting and you've said that of course the amount of material you have to keep under your care is far larger than what you can keep there.

So y'all have controlled off-site places but you can try to access things and bring them in for people who are doing Ph.D. or research work.

Is that correct?

>> Absolutely we do have to use some offsite storage facilities which our largest one is climate controlled and we will communicate with researchers ahead of time so that we can have materials called back and waiting for them when they come in for their appointment.

So, right now appointments are required, given the situation, but we do everything we can to make our materials accessible for our researchers.

>> I found out that you give tours and know a lot about the history of the university and the other day you were kind enough to talk to me about the history of African American people and the university.

So, can you start with who built the university?

And who owned those enslaved people?

<Elizabeth> Well, at the time most of the labor like that would have been likely from enslaved persons.

So, we know some of the structures were definitely built by enslaved workers and likely most or all of the others, as well.

The university was established at South Carolina college in 1801 actually opened in 1805 with Rutledge as the first building and then began expansion throughout what we now call the horseshoe And the university or the college itself owned only a small number of enslaved workers.

And primarily used a hiring out system, where they would contract with local residents to hire out their enslaved workers for specific tasks.

for the daily operations of the campus the cooking and cleaning, repairs, some minor construction caring for laboratory equipment, cleaning the library books and other things like that.

>> So, there were highly skilled enslaved people who would be brought in to do the construction of buildings and that sort of thing and then for the more daily domestic and gardening chores there was another set of people whom the university actually owned those people.

<Elizabeth> The daily domestic chores, the college owned a small number but that is what they used for the hiring out for any kind of major construction work or things like that, that would have been done through the person hired to construct a building and then whatever workers or enslaved workers that person used.

>> So there were construction companies just like we have construction companies today and at that time, some of those companies did have their own enslaved people who were the major part of the workforce.

>> Right.

Right.

>> And there is I believe one structure that, at one time you said, there were the faculty often have their own personal enslaved people who helped them with their chores and domestic duties but had small buildings associated with some of the colleges where the faculty lived.

There's one remnant, one building that did have enslaved people living in it, at one time.

>> There is one remaining kitchen and slave quarters structure on campus.

It's behind the current president's house.

Originally, the faculty were required to live on campus and their families lived with them.

And so behind those faculty residences, which were duplexes originally like the current president's house, Lieber and McCutchen, they had structures back there to house the kitchens for the families and then also quarters for their enslaved domestic servants and so all of them except this one have been demolished over time as parking lots and other new buildings were constructed and the space behind the horseshoe buildings was filled in with construction projects.

>> Well, and we all know that parking is worst here [laughs] is certainly something that is a prize to have a ticket a sticker to allow you to park anywhere near the horseshoe is something that only a few rare people have.

But, we did then, with the surrender the south and the end of the Civil War.

Things change dramatically and I believe it happened relatively quickly at the university Explain the things that happened and kind of the order that they did, please Elizabeth.

>> The university was closed during the Civil War, re-opened again and for a few years and then with the state constitution allowing for education of African Americans, the university was desegregated.

The board of trustees had both White and Black members, the student body was desegregated with White and Black students and by the end of Reconstruction was actually majority Black, and then the first faculty member who is African American, Richard T. Greener was hired in 1873.

So, from 1873 to 77' the university was desegregated on those three levels.

<Amanda> And Dr. Greener had an interesting story before he came to the university and afterwards, I believe.

<Elizabeth> Yes.

He was also Harvard's first African American graduate.

And while he was at the University of South Carolina he not only taught classes.

He served for nearly a year, as a temporary librarian when the previous librarian left and he also earned his law degree at the law school at the university, and so, he was faculty, student and administrator all in one and when the Reconstruction Era ended and the university had to close down, Greener left and he became Dean of Law at Howard University and then later joined the Diplomatic Corps and his career included postings in Japan and Russia.

>> And what an accomplished person to have had, but sadly only for a short time, because with the end of Reconstruction, things pretty much went back to the way they had been before.

>> Yes.

The university closed at the end of the spring semester in 1877 and remained closed for three years.

When it re opened in 1880, it was an all white institution again.

>> Yes.

And the way I found out and started talking to you, Elizabeth, was I had heard about a desegregation garden.

And so, let's talk about when the university was finally desegregated and why we say desegregated instead of integrated, if you could please explain that.

>> Certainly, the university had fought desegregation for a number of years as other institutions had and when it came down to the realization that they were going to lose their final cases, the library at the university administration, the political leaders of the city and the governor, they decided that they did not want to have the level, the kind of violence that other southern schools had when they desegregated.

And so they very carefully planned out how it would occur.

There were plain clothes police officers all over the campus on that day on September 11th, 1963.

And the dean of students sent a letter to every USC student, which essentially told them that they would behave in a way that would not bring shame upon the university.

It would not embarrass the university and they had to accept this and to do so in a calm and mannered way.

So, on September 11th, 1963, our first three African American students since Reconstruction enrolled in the university.

>> So, desegregation means that you're no longer just all one way but there's not a broad representative group that really is kind of more balanced - <Elizabeth> Right.

Desegregation we have people of color with the white students, faculty staff, trustees, administrators and so forth.

But, to be truly integrated, there would have to be a deeper level of and more widespread level of a mix of races and ethnic groups at all levels of the university and so we're not truly to that point, yet.

Certainly, when you have three students amongst the thousands of white students, obviously, that's not full integration and it's something that - that is always a work in progress to get to that fuller level.

You told me something when we were walking that I found quite fascinating that we know that racism considered, continued long after, well, long after the Civil War before the desegregation.

But you said there was obviously some recognition of the - and feelings of good will toward some people of the other race from the White students, because of what you found about the initials in the brick pathway that was laid.

>> Well, it's an unusual story.

Of course, you did not have sidewalks and the legislature had failed to provide funding for sidewalks for number of years, and so, one of our most beloved faculty members of the 20th century Havilah Babcock who taught English and who was very well known and loved by his students, he organized an effort to get sidewalks on the horseshoe.

He gathered up a group of student organizations and they approached a local brick company, Richland Shale, which later became Richtex Bricks and they received bricks and were sent brick masons and they taught the students how to lay the brick sidewalks on the horseshoe.

So, the main sidewalks coming up each side in front of the buildings on the horseshoe with the wide initials in there are the sidewalks on that initial project and those were done in 1931.

And it was actually an excused absence from class if you were out there laying bricks and they had little fundraisers to help pay for some things.

You know, it's just - <Amanda> There's a contrast in the color of the brick to recognize Havilah Babcock.

His initials are there and some of the fraternities.

Is that correct?

>> Right.

So the white letters you see in the sidewalks are the initials of Havilah Babcock and also another English professor George A. Wauchope who wrote our alma mater and the student organizations that participated as well as the date, 1931.

So, they're quite visible but there was another set of initials just in the red brick that blend in and near McKissick and Osborne and I've just thought from Havilah Babcock's initials that we didn't know why they were in there in just the red brick and not in the white.

They were M.E.E.

And so, years ago we ran a story on the sidewalk project and heard from one of the alumni who participated, He told us that he and his crew have been working up near that end of the horseshoe and they liked their African American brick masons so much that they snuck his initials into the sidewalk, Marion E. Evans.

And so that was a really unusual thing to do and usual story, given, it was segregated South Carolina in 1931 So, we were thrilled to get that information and to make note of that and keep an eye on those particular initials whenever sidewalk repair is done and the landscaping crews know, that they're there and can't be - can't be moved during repairs.

>> need to be treated with respect, which was a sign that the students showed him, which at that time was as you said sadly kind of unusual that it was still a time of great segregation of the South.

And we're still - the university, as are many of our colleges are we're still trying to make progress in achieving a more equitable student population, I believe.

>> Yes until the 1963 three desegregation, African Americans could not walk, even walk across campus.

If they needed to go to another part of the city and the quickest way was to cut across the campus, they could not do that they would have to actually walk around the campus to get over there.

When the three students came in 1963 that was finally, permanently desegregating at the university.

and they came back, the two living students came back.

Henrie Monteith Treadwell she was our first African American woman to actually enroll in the university.

Black women were on the campus during Reconstruction, but they were - it was a normal school for teachers.

It was a teacher college, teaching school that was housed on the university but they were not actually enrolled students.

so Henrie Monteith became that very first African American woman to enroll in the university.

James Solomon was a graduate student in mathematics and then Robert Anderson was an undergraduate and he had the most difficult time on campus with the racial harassment and he did not - He decided not to graduate from the university but left and later became a social worker.

He was deceased.

So, it was Solomon and Monteith that came back for the desegregation anniversary activities and were there at the dedication of the garden, as well.

Well, Elizabeth I know that the South Caroliniana Library is undergoing reconstruction now, new construction and when it's finished that you hope to have a garden behind it that may have native plants in it.

So, I want to first thank you for what for you explaining this fascinating history of the university's attempt to achieve racial harmony and also I hope that we will get to visit with you again and see that we will go back and see the new garden that you will have at that beautiful, building, the South Caroliniana Library.

Thank you so very much.

>> Thank you, Amanda.

♪ [melodious music] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> The University of South Carolina does have a large footprint on the landscape of Columbia and it's interesting to see how they evolve and try to incorporate things that are interesting to the history of our state.

I want to thank David Coyle so much for being with us tonight and giving us all these wonderful updates and Terasa, always we appreciate your being with us.

I hope everyone's had a good time watching the show tonight and please join us again next Tuesday for Making It Grow.

Night Night.

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