>> "Workin' It Out," a podcast show about diversity, equity, and inclusion in our workplaces, our communities, and our lives, a show where we put diversity and inclusion to work.

>> ♪ Got problems on the job?

♪ ♪ We’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workplace got you stressin'?

♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Yeah, we’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workin' it out, workin' it out ♪ >> ♪ With Dr. V. ♪ >> Hi.

I'm Dr. Vanessa Weaver, your host of "Workin' It Out," the show where we put diversity and inclusion to work.

I want to ensure that we're all on the same page when this show uses the term "diversity, equity, inclusion," because sometimes people ask me, "Well, what does that really mean?"

So, I kind of have a simple way for you to think about it.

Diversity is being asked to the party.

Inclusion is being asked to dance, and equity is making sure that you can get to the party.

Michelle Obama, our former first lady, recently openly acknowledged that she often experienced imposter syndrome.

And that's going to be our topic for the show today.

Her sharing that sparked a tremendous conversation about imposter syndrome and what it really means for a black woman, for people of color, for other diverse equity, for other diverse cohorts, and also just people in general.

Imposter syndrome is really characterized by self-doubt, when you often have this fear of are you good enough?

Will people really discover that you're not as connected or you're not as on top of this topic as you thought you were?

And individuals grapple with this thought.

And particularly when people of color are faced with this, they wonder, "Am I just really here because of affirmative action?"

And many times people have said that.

So, we often sometimes really believe it.

So, the problem with the imposter syndrome is not that you ask the question itself, because, for many people -- in fact, the data says that 70% of us will raise that question to ourselves, "Well, am I really ready for this job?

Am I really good enough for this job?"

The challenge with imposter syndrome comes when that becomes a habitual habit, when you really become so obsessed with it or so absorbed with it that it immobilizes the choices you have and pursuing other opportunities.

And I can tell you, for over 30 years I've been coaching in corporate America.

And this is a real topic.

So, people sometimes think these titles mean little or nothing.

But I could tell you that imposter syndrome is real for a lot of us.

And so, at some juncture in our lives after we've experienced this, we need to take a pause and say, "Hey, is this a problem for me?

Is this something that I need to get some coaching and some advice on?"

So, in today's show, we are really excited to have with us the renowned Iyanla Vanzant, an incredible woman that I just admire and have a tremendous respect for.

As many of you know, Iyanla produced, executive-produced, and starred in her own show, "Iyanla, Fix My Life," for over nine years.

And she coached not only celebrities but everyday people.

And not only was she in that top-rated show, but Iyanla is a prolific author.

She has written over 19 books, sold 10 million copies.

And those books were translated into 26 languages.

So, she's not only read in the United States, but she is known all around the world, and she is a force for good, having impacted so many of our lives.

So, on today's episode, Iyanla will delve into her perspective of the imposter syndrome.

And sometimes people call it different things.

So, you know, we might slide into some different terminology.

We'll help you with that when we do that.

But Iyanla is going to talk to us about her take on the imposter syndrome, and also not only how it shows up, but also she will help give some suggestions to many of you who might be experiencing that.

So, Iyanla, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for coming to the show today.

-Yeah.

Thank you for helping us work it out.

Okay?

Because when you gave your definition and you said diversity was being invited to the dance, inclusion was being asked to dance, I said that equity is being able to eat at the dance that they pass the hors d'oeuvres by you.

>> Well, you know what?

I'm going to make sure I include that.

I like that.

anything when eating, I enjoy it.

[ Both laugh ] Iyanla, before we delve into this imposter syndrome and how it shows up and what people can do about it, I would just love for you to share with me and our audience what motivates you to engage in this kind of work, where you're coaching individuals to be our best selves and to making really some informed decisions about how we're going to live our lives.

I guess I could ask you, "What's your why?"

>> Haha.

Probably because I'm crazy, but... >> Well, that's our secret, Iyanla.

We're not telling the world about that.

>> Well, you know, I am a lawyer by training.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So, it's always been for me about supporting people and moving through difficulties.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> My deepest desire in my heart was always to be a nurse.

I wanted to be a nurse.

>> I didn't even know that.

>> Yeah.

I wanted to be a nurse.

I went to nursing school for one day.

Not even one day, maybe three hours.

And in my classroom, I was sitting in, in the lab and there were little baby pigs in a jar.

And I said to the instructor, "Is there ever going to come a day when me and one of those pigs have to interface with each other?"

And she said, "Oh, yes."

And I left.

But, you know, Vanessa, it was really a calling.

I guess when your purpose unfolds in you and you just take one step after the other in your purpose, it blossoms.

You know, I didn't I didn't start out doing this.

I started out teaching women on public assistance who were getting ready to go back to work.

So, I was teaching them job readiness and life skills.

And that blossomed into one thing.

It ended up with me having a radio show and then writing my first book.

So, again, I know it's my purpose.

I know I am on purpose, and I just follow God's direction and do as I'm told most of the time.

>> Well, Iyanla, I've often said to you that, as you know, I'm trained as a clinical psychologist, and we have different approaches to help people identify what some of the issues they're dealing with and hopefully to heal and grow from them.

But I was always so fascinated on "Iyanla, Fix My Life," how quickly you got folks to not only identify and work but work their issue and work it to some resolution.

I just said, now, I spent all of those years in graduate school getting this PhD, and here my sister Iyanla is getting folks to resolve these issues in a matter of a few hours.

How phenomenal that is.

But it was clear to me it was a gift.

And I just appreciate the way you've chosen to use that gift to help others.

So, let's get into this imposter syndrome.

What's your perspective on that?

Do you believe that there is an imposter syndrome?

>> Oh, absolutely.

I experienced it myself when my daughter Gemmia died.

And I'm saving everybody in the world, and I can solve this problem and that problem, and I couldn't save my own child.

So, it really made me doubt, you know, myself, my capacity.

What am I doing?

And it didn't help that other people were saying that on social media.

That didn't help, either, you know?

And the thing that I know is that whole notion of "I'm not good enough.

I'm not doing it right," it can either grow from inside of you -- what you're telling yourself, your own internal narrative -- or it can be a response and a reaction to what's coming at you.

I mean, even today, you can go on social media today and find a dozen people who are calling me a fraud.

You know, "She don't know what she's doing.

She's a fraud.

She's not this.

She's not that."

But it doesn't bother me anymore because I had to walk through that experience after Gemmia died.

So, it's real.

>> Well, when you say you had to walk through that experience, and of course, you and I, I was involved and connected with you through all that experience and the pain that I felt.

And I know it was not the pain of a mother.

It was just tremendous because Gemmia was so brilliant and so kind and really a full partner with you in your business.

And so, to lose all of that and a daughter, I just couldn't comprehend the pain that you must be feeling.

So, how did you walk through that?

And, you know, you said you had to walk through it.

Talk a little bit about how you walked through that.

>> Well, that's just what I did, walk through it.

And, as you said in your opening, very often those thoughts, that narrative, those feelings can become debilitating.

And, you know, it's funny because one day I was having, you know, just a total breakdown about, "I'm not doing this anymore.

I can't do this anymore.

I can save the world and couldn't save my daughter" and blah, blah, blah.

And I heard so clearly from within myself, "Iyanla, if they don't know that you can't do what you say you can do, then you're smarter than them, anyway.

Keep walking."

And so I just kept walking.

You know?

I just kept walking.

I went to the next speaking engagement.

I did the next workshop.

And the other thing I really embraced, for me, I embraced a Buddhist principle.

My dear friend, Reverend Michael Beckwith, said to me, "Iyanla, for the next year, do everything in her name.

If you're not good enough to do it, do it in her name."

And so everything I did, I did in Gemmia's name.

I did for her.

I did because she supported it.

I did it the way she would have me do it, and that's really how I got through it.

So, fast-forward 20 years later, when I lost my second daughter, you know, last year, I knew how to do it because the same feelings came up, the same thing came up.

And it's like, "Here you go again.

Saving the world, fixing people, fixing lives.

And your daughter dies alone in her apartment."

And the first thing I said to myself was, "It's not going to stop me.

It is not going to stop me."

You know, so, again, I think that you got to navigate and negotiate what comes up from your internal landscape.

>> Right.

>> And then you have to really tune out what's coming to you from the outside, because, sure enough, when I went to my Instagram page, there were people, "See?

I told you she was a fraud.

She can't even save her own children."

>> Well, you know, I really, really thank you for sharing such a personal story.

And it's still so fresh and new, and I guess it will always be fresh and new.

But one of the points you talked about was the fact that you felt like you could save everybody.

Here, you were saving everybody.

And when it came to your daughters, other people were saying this, that you couldn't save them, although they had some real medical issues and you never said you were God, right?

>> No.

>> But we won't even get into that.

But one of the common characteristics of imposter syndrome, and I think this is really unique to powerful women, to black women, is this superwoman piece that, you know, we're socialized and raised to believe that we could be all things to all people and we can solve all of these problems and issues.

And when you get into imposter syndrome, they talk a lot about that being true for us as women.

And I know when we look at these archetypes for black women, this superwoman is a pronounced one for us, but it's also one for women in general.

So, talk a little bit about that.

Have you seen this superwoman archetype?

>> Yeah, and I resigned from that committee.

I no longer serve on the superwoman committee.

>> Oh, good for you.

>> Because to be a mother and to be a professional and to be a partner and all of those things.

So, I think I resigned from the superwoman committee after Gemmia's death -- and that's been 20 years -- because I recognize the first person I need to take care of is myself.

So, can I save me from what's going on inside of me?

Let me handle that before I start reaching out.

And then the other thing that, for me, resigning from the superwoman committee was building my "no" muscle, building my "no" muscle, learning that -- >> Excuse me, Iyanla.

You said building your...?

>> No -- my "no" muscle.

How to say no without the guilt.

Yeah -- n-o.

I had to build my "no" muscle.

I had to learn that I have a right to say no.

I had to learn that I can choose when to say no.

I can choose who to say no to, because that -- without the guilt, without the guilt.

But once I took off the superwoman cape and recognized that's not my job.

That's not my -- let me not be trying to out-God God, saving people.

I can't save myself from a bag of Lay's potato chips.

You put a bag of Lay's potato chips in front of me, and I can't save myself.

[ Laughs ] So, why am I trying to save human lives?

>> That's my confession -- Lay's potato chips.

And we're not being paid to endorse Lay's potato chips, by the way.

>> Yeah, so I couldn't.

So, I had to learn to say no, no, and develop that checkpoint inside.

And sometimes I say no because I don't want to.

>> So, Iyanla, I love you're sharing how you made your personal, how you walk through it, right?

How you worked it out in the deaths of both of your daughters.

I mean, every time I think about it, it gives me a moment of pause.

When you're coaching people like on "Iyanla, Fix My Life," and they were dealing with the imposter syndrome, what were some of the first steps you took them through to deal with it?

>> Well...

I think it's different for everyone.

You've got to find out, "Okay.

What are you an imposter at?

Why do you think you're an imposter?"

Because you've got to get down to that.

Because sometimes it's just a toxic internal dialogue.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Now, that's one part.

If it's because people said this or because I didn't do that...

I think one of the most challenging cases I had was a woman who, I mean, she was debilitated by it.

She was brilliant but debilitated by feeling like an imposter because she had been sexually abused as a child and told herself that she had participated in it because it was a known person.

And it happened more than once.

And when she told, nothing was done about it.

So she learned that what happens to her and her feelings and her needs don't matter.

So, whenever she in the world, in her work world, if anyone expressed any level of disappointment or upset with her, she went into her imposter syndrome.

"See, I knew I'm not worth this.

I can't do this."

And it was all hinged on the fact that she had been sexually molested when she was nine.

So, she had it coming.

Her internal dialogue created a filter through which she perceived the feedback she was getting from her universe.

Everybody's going to make mistakes.

You can't please everybody.

>> Correct.

>> Sometimes you'll drop the ball, but that doesn't mean that your whole life is worthless now and that you are worthless.

>> So.

it seems to me, Iyanla, that one of the... What you helped her do was to come to some kind of awareness of it.

Right?

>> Yeah.

>> To take the time to explore.

Like you said, to get underneath the hood around, you know, what is it?

Why am I feeling it?

When does it happen?

So, this whole notion of self-awareness.

But it also seemed like she was very smart at reaching out for some help.

And maybe she didn't know what she needed help with, but she reached out.

>> One of the things that I remember working with her and with people in the imposter syndrome is to make a distinction between a thought and a feeling.

People will say, "I feel like an imposter."

And I say, "That's not a feeling.

A feeling is one word.

A thought is several strung together."

So, when you say, "I feel like an imposter," that is not a feeling.

That is a thought.

Now let's get to the root of that thought.

So that means it's coming to me from the internal landscape.

>> Mm-hmm.

And it's so important to make that distinction because, as you noted before, and it's been part of my experience that, you know, this imposter syndrome, so much of it is kind of a cognitive thing in the brain.

Right?

Kind of your mind-set.

And oftentimes people can't distinguish what they're thinking versus from what they're really feeling.

So, how do you have them separate that -- what I'm thinking, what's up here in my mind, versus what I'm feeling, because you said thinking is a lot of words, but feeling is one.

Give us an example.

>> One word --"I feel sad.

I feel happy.

I feel angry.

I feel disappointed."

Feelings are one word.

"I feel like I let you down" -- that's a thought.

"I feel like I shouldn't be here."

That's a thought.

So, there's something that is triggered up, stirred up, implanted at the level of the internal landscape that is feeding these thoughts.

So, the first thing you want to do is make a distinction between what are you thinking and what are you feeling?

I think I'm an imposter, and that makes me feel what?

You're an imposter.

How do you feel about that?

>> Wow.

So, Iyanla, now they've been able to make this distinction between a thought and a feeling, right?

Then, what do they do next with that?

How do you work it out with them on that?

>> A feeling is usually triggered by a memory.

It may be a traumatic memory.

It may be a program memory.

You know, and you have to investigate the feeling.

You got to trace it back to its origins so that you can find out what's going on underneath there.

Now, a thought, that takes a little more processing.

Okay, so if you're a fraud, if you're an imposter, now what?

[ Laughs ] And the reason you want to investigate the thought is because eventually you'll drop into the feeling.

It's just the process, right?

You know?

You're an imposter.

So now what?

>> What's so interesting about what you're saying is that the literature and the studies indicate that for people who have been subjected to bias, I mean, they could be disabled people, they could be LGBTQ people, they could be people of color.

They could be women.

That oftentimes it's the ongoing biases that they encounter that begin to shape their thoughts about being an imposter.

You know, maybe it didn't even necessarily, maybe they didn't even necessarily start out like that.

But they get in a workplace environment and people say, "You know, you're here because of affirmative action.

You're really not that good.

The affirmative action got you here."

And these repetitive, biased kind of comments that they're hearing, and then they start thinking, "Well, maybe that's true."

And I guess from your point of view that begins to generate some feelings.

But right then in that point, are you saying that they need to get really focused on what is the source of some of this kind of headspace they're in around being an imposter?

>> Yeah.

Okay, so the microaggressions that give you those thoughts and feelings.

But you're here now.

>> Right.

>> You're here.

Okay.

You're here.

And so, now what are you going to do?

You're an imposter.

You still pay taxes.

You still pay to get on the bus.

You still got to pay the toll to go across the bridge.

You are an imposter.

So now what are you going to do?

I mean, you know, for me, I'm just going in.

You're an imposter.

Now what?

They didn't know it, so that makes you smarter than them anyhow.

Okay?

>> So, you put some reality up in here.

>> Okay?

Even if you got here by affirmative action, you'll still get a check you can cash.

You know, sometimes you have to take an internal.

You've got to be really ruthless and vigilant about how you engage and entertain those things that are coming at you.

The other big thing, Vanessa, huge as it relates to the imposter syndrome, is comparing yourself to other people.

Comparing yourself to other people is an act of violence against yourself.

And I remember when I first started doing this work, and I had been doing it about 12, 15 years.

And then along came Marianne Williamson, who was filling up centers and filling up town hall.

And I was like, "Oh, man, I'm not filling up centers like that.

I want to be like Marianne Williamson."

But comparing yourself is an act of violence against yourself, and it will undermine, diminish your value, your worth, your esteem, your respect for yourself.

>> Well, Iyanla, I tell you, it seemed like we just started talking a couple of minutes ago about this whole imposter sentiment.

There are several things you said.

I want to just kind of touch base before we close out today.

And one is just even creating a self-awareness that you're struggling with something that is more than just an every-now-and-then question or thought, but it's really impacting how you choose to live your life.

And then you talked about, you know, making a separation between what you're thinking and what you're feeling and the importance of that.

And then you talked about really identifying and connecting with what your self-worth is, identifying, you know, what are those things or what are people saying and doing that are coming against you?

And how do you step back and push back on that, push back on those things that aren't true, and then not comparing yourself to others because that's an act of self-violence or that's an act of violence against yourself.

I just feel that those points were just so powerful and will be so helpful to our audience.

So, on behalf of our "Workin' It Out" crew, I want to again thank you, Iyanla Vanzant, the renowned Iyanla Vanzant.

And I'll close with my typical saying -- "Have a be-happy week, and let's work it out together."

Bye-bye.

>> ♪ Got problems on the job?

♪ ♪ We’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workplace got you stressin'?

♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Yeah, we’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workin' it out, workin' it out ♪ >> ♪ With Dr. V. ♪