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- Out with the old and in with the new, right?

Isn't that what we say here at the beginning of the year?

But exactly what's new that will be coming?

I'm Chris William, and welcome again to the most widely watched and longest running program on Carolina business, policy and public affairs.

Seen each and every week across North and South Carolina for more than 30 years now, thank you for supporting us to get this far.

We will start to unpack what is new about this year and what may be old that we are going to carry forward.

And later on, we are joined by a key legislator in the state of South Carolina, the Honorable Gilda Cobb-Hunter.

Stay with us.

- [Announcer] Major funding also by Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, an independent licensee of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association.

And Martin Marietta, a leading provider of natural resource based building materials, providing the foundation on which our communities improve and grow.

On this edition of "Carolina Business Review," Terik Tidwell from NC IDEA's Black Entrepreneurship Council.

Carl Blackstone of the Greater Columbia Chamber of Commerce and special guest Gilda Cobb-Hunter, South Carolina State Representative.

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome again to our program.

Is it too late to say Happy New Year, can you?

- No, Happy New Year.

- Okay, all right.

So Happy New Year.

So out with the old and new with the new so Terik, the new are going to be job layoffs.

Clearly the tech industry started doing that and it's not, I'm not making light of it, it's not a laughing matter because there have been six figure layoffs beginning now.

Are we going to see companies piling, other industrial sectors piling on to say, "all right we're gonna lay off kind of since the tech industry's doing it too."

- Yeah, I think we're gonna see a little bit of spill over effects between one industry, the tech sector and some other areas, particularly within maybe some areas of energy, utilities.

So you might start seeing some other different kind of layouts because there's some spill over effects with those kinds of companies.

Now, for instance, in terms of North Carolina, we're not seeing it just yet.

We may see it in the future, but not now.

- Carl, what do you think?

- I think there's, that's an correction of the market, right?

I mean, with the growth of the tech industry during the pandemic was unbelievable.

And so people aren't staying home and ordering things and shopping as much and so they're not, those jobs aren't needed.

So I do see it being a correction of the market.

Where those folks go and how can they help other potential new industries are gonna be great.

I mean, there's an opportunity there.

- I think there's gonna be, you know, to pile onto that, there's gonna be something which we're seeing with some policy, which is supporting like clean energy tech sector.

We might start seeing some of those layoffs, those folks who are leaving that sector going into those particular jobs because there's a lot of capital being infused there and there's policy supporting the growth of those companies.

- Is that a, so is this a self-fulfilling prophecy that I mean I'm sure you two have said it, but numerous people over and over for years on this program and in other forums have said, "you know we don't have enough talent."

Is this clearly gonna plug some of that gap?

- I think so, there's an opportunity for that, especially with the shift in workplace methodologies, right?

People are working from home, working remotely.

They can fill voids quickly now, where before they weren't gonna uproot their family to move across the country.

Now they can still work out their same office in their bedroom or wherever and fill another space.

So I think it's gonna be an interesting time to watch.

Now there are a lot of layoffs and it won't be one-to-one job transfers, but I do think it could certainly be beneficial to some merging markets.

- Terik, DEI, is this gonna take a backseat now?

Because when job layoffs happen, it's pretty undemocratic.

- Yes.

- Bottom line.

- I mean, when you typically see like a kind of like what we're seeing layoffs just may see a recession, may see something like that.

DEI may take a little bit of a backseat, because it's more so about how do we get to profitability or how do we maintain our profit margins and what do we cut, what we see which is some companies when they cut they're cutting their human resources, they're coming, cutting some of their marketing sales.

So think about which is who's leading these efforts inside these organizations and these companies may be in those particular roles.

So we, there has to be a little bit of level setting, but I think good organizations are gonna say, "listen, DEI is at the core of what we do and we're gonna make sure we do it equitably."

That's just a matter of measuring between who's good and who's great.

- Yeah, is the integrity of DEI gonna stay, you think?

- I think so.

- As it was maybe a year ago?

- I think the companies that invested lots of money within their own organizations to really make it a priority are gonna continue with that.

I do think there'll be some impact on some companies that did not make it a priority.

So I think there'll be a variation, but I think your point as well made that those that have really put their money where their mouth is will do it equitably.

- Yeah, and I think, you know, in terms of like during you know, between 2019 and 2021, there was a lot of commitments.

So now it's gonna be a living of accountability which is, are these companies, you know, gonna stick to their word and in terms of their commitments of supporting DEI efforts or minority supplier diversity chain.

So this is gonna be really about, you know, accountability and looking at how some companies are being measured towards their ESG goals.

This is gonna really test that kind of framework.

- You know, you seem kind of excited about that, Terik.

- Well, I love to see how, you know, people are getting tested.

You know, you're not tested in peace time, you're tested in war times and this is not a just a very easy kind of economy.

This is gonna be testing the fabric of some of these companies and their commitment to equity, inclusion and diversity.

- So how deep, you know, economists are starting to use this term called rolling recession, where it's not all at the same time, you know, labor's up here, but the cost of money is rising and we've got a recession in this industry, but not in this industry.

So how would you handicap 2023 will be a overt recession?

- Well, can I add a piece to this?

(Terik laughs) - I also think there's some geographic piece that you talked about.

It's not just industry.

The south is seeing such huge population increases.

We're seeing job growth.

We had the largest economic year ever in the history of South Carolina.

We are seeing jobs being grown.

I think there are places around the country that are gonna get hit worse than others because of migration patterns.

I don't think South Carolina, North Carolina are going to see the type of recession that someone may be up in the northeast would see.

- How much, but let's stay for that just a second.

I don't want to chase this down a rabbit hole, but how much of a hedge is that really for the south?

A good hedge, a small hedge, a great hedge.

I mean, how much is the south really not going to participate in a recession?

- I think it'll go back to some of the more rural communities were gonna feel it well before those in urban market.

I don't think Charlotte really sees it.

I don't really see Columbia experiencing the recession.

- You agree with that, Terik?

- I don't think Charleston will.

- Yeah, so I mean there's a little, when you talk about migration, you talk about where you may see these different kinds of recessions.

I think from some points there's gonna be a little more federal investment into those rural areas and opportunities which we're seeing, which is how access to capital may be spread out even equitably.

Because we know that those communities may suffer a little bit more if there is a recession.

So I think it's a little bit about, you know, resiliency and I see some folks moving from Austin, Texas to Winston Salem and more to outskirts of Greenville.

So there's a little bit of migration where folks are saying, listen, "I want a place to raise a family.

I want a place that's economically feasible and I'm gonna and if I can work remotely and I can be in a great place that's emerging, I look at North, South Carolina as a a perfect opportunity."

I can't tell you how many people are moving to North Carolina, South Carolina because of the fact that they have these opportunities here.

So I think there may be a rolling recession, but I don't think it's going to be a deep recession.

- Will there'll be some slip?

Absolutely, I think the market will definitely slow down, but I don't see the deep recession at all.

- In about 60 seconds we're gonna go to our guest in a minute.

Terik, just wrap this up.

You get the last word here.

We talk about hybrid work and it's different now than it was even 12 months ago.

Some employers are compelling people to come back, some don't like it, but they're doing it.

A year from now will it be yet different again and what's that hybrid model really ultimately going to look like maybe five years from now?

- It's a great question.

I mean there's been, there's a question because I think it's a little bit about, you know a lot of companies have invested into these commercial real estates for ensuring that people are gonna come into the office site, right.

We had some of that scene happen here in North Carolina in Charlotte, which is the expectation.

I think there's gonna be a grappling saying, what kind of workforce models will we have?

How will we cultivate it?

How will we develop it and how will we manage it?

So there's a little bit where we see folks in middle management who are a little bit frightened by that and there's gonna be some questions about how do we develop managers to manage remote workers.

And that is not something where we're seeing so much in the kind of workforce development strategies.

- Okay, so again, 30 seconds, is there a longer tail on the uncertainty a round what a hybrid work environment looks like than we even think.

- I do.

I think there some industries will have a boomerang pattern.

That they'll be back in within a short period of time.

I think some, the new status quo is yet to be determined.

- Okay gentlemen, thank you.

Coming up on our program next week actually, depends on what market you live in, but probably next week, the new CEO of Santee Cooper has an interesting job for a bunch of reasons.

Santee Cooper not long ago was an asset that the state wanted to sell, specifically the governor of South Carolina.

And also he has now taken over a job to figure out where to from here.

Is it a long-term build or is it an asset that still may be sold?

We will find out next week.

Jimmy Staton, the CEO of South Carolina Santeee Cooper will join us.

Joining us now is someone who has been on this program before.

The "Times and Democrat Paper" in Orangeburg County in Orangeburg, South Carolina named her person of the year for 2022 at the very end of last year.

She is a legislator now three decades plus.

She has an extreme amount of respect on both sides of the aisle and we're glad to host her again on this program.

Her name is Gilda Cobb-Hunter, your Honor, welcome again to the program.

- Thank you so much, Chris.

It's good to be with you.

And you're saying, your honor, I am not a lawyer or a judge.

- There's a certain level of respect.

- Oh, okay.

- For not just the office, but the person.

- Oh, you're sweet.

Thank you, Chris.

- Well you might not think now after this question.

(both laughing) Just kidding.

We're always careful about legislators and having people that do have an opinion and have leadership.

So Your Honor, you have been around the State House for three plus decades, so you do, you're on Ways and Means.

It's a fairly powerful and committee with some leverage.

What have you learned about not just the last 30 years, but you're still in office and just reelected and now moving forward with a new dynamic in South Carolina.

What have you learned and how do we apply that?

- Wow, a new dynamic is an understatement.

What I've learned over these past three plus decades is that two things: one, it's about relationships.

You've gotta develop and create relationships in the General Assembly because that's how things get done.

And the other part for me personally is you'd be surprised at what you can get done when you don't care who gets the credit.

And so I'm a behind the scenes, I like detail, organizing, dotting Is and crossing ts, And so as long as it gets done that's where I get the satisfaction.

I don't have to be credited or have my name in lights and all that good stuff.

I'm just a little social worker trying to do good, right Carl?

(laughing) - Probably just a little more than that.

Terik, question.

- Your excellency.

- [Cobb-Hunter] Good lord, y'all getting out.

- So I mean with the shift of within, you know, the General Assembly, how do you see about working across the aisle with this new super majority to support more economic development and more growth in South Carolina?

- Well, it's interesting and you probably are not aware of this, but we've had that shift since 1994 in South Carolina.

And so most of my legislative career has been spent working with people on the other side of the aisle.

For me, the only shift will be the degree of Republican philosophies, which one will prevail.

You know, we are looking probably in all honesty at at least three or possibly four different factions within the Republican caucus.

And so on a personal level, we have lost so many Democratic seats.

This is the first time since I've been in the General Assembly that the Republicans have a super majority.

And so that will take some adjustment and some getting used to.

But you know, it's, it is what it is and that's my philosophy.

I'll figure it out one way or the other.

- [Chris] Carl.

- We have seen, we talked about a little bit earlier about this just unbelievable growth that we're seeing especially on the economic development front.

And a lot of that development has gone to your backyard in Orangeburg because one, y'all have invested in product for a long time and you've really been focused on economic growth.

Going forward, how do you create the workforce?

Is it more money for education?

Is it workforce training, is it a combination?

How do you find the workforce in Orangeburg to live up to all the new jobs that are being created there?

- Well of course, thank you for that question.

And if you talk to our new economic development director and the chairs of Orangeburg and County Council they would say that while we've had some, a great degree of economic development, we still want more.

(all laughing) - And so that's why education is so important.

And I was listening to the previous conversation where you were talking about economic development in rural communities.

I think for us in South Carolina, we've gotta figure out how to develop rural South Carolina not in the same way as our urban areas, but clearly there are two South Carolinas.

We have an opportunity, you talked about the economy and how well we are doing in South Carolina and North Carolina.

And of course I cannot sit here without saying all of that is not happening in a vacuum.

We do have an administration, President Biden's administration that has really done some things that have improved the economic climate across the board, across the country.

And you're right, we're burgeoning in the south.

But what we gotta understand in the South is that public education is critical.

It's the key.

Higher education and adequately funding higher education for y'all, business people think about long term.

I always think about long term and unfortunately too many of us think only election to election.

We don't think long term.

I think about how I grew up and how education was emphasized.

Get it in your head.

And so we've got a generation of kids in South Carolina who may well not benefit from a quality education.

The three of you don't need me to tell you about Abbeville and that situation and I wish I could sit here and tell you that we have progressed a long ways past that lawsuit, but the reality is that we've not.

And so I think, I'm just rambling now.

I've probably not answered your question.

- You know, let me, since you mentioned Abbeville v. South Carolina, there are a lot of similarities to what happened in South Carolina that's going on with Leandro and North Carolina.

And not to go too far down this road 'cause I know we didn't, not just didn't talk about it, but it will take up a lot of oxygen in the room.

Do you get the sense that North Carolina and the Leandro challenge that's going on can, could North Carolina learn from Abbeville v. South Carolina and that decision or lack of decision that wasn't applied?

- That is all of the above in that point, in that case as well.

The lesson that North Carolina should learn from South Carolina is that you run the risk of jeopardizing your business climate.

North Carolina has a tremendous higher education system.

You know, you think about the feeder kids going into your higher ed institutions, and I didn't point out when we talked about the business in South Carolina, we've got an excellent technical college system thanks to Fritz Hollings when he was governor.

We are envied across the country.

And so my message to North Carolina legislators would be, don't do like we did in South Carolina, don't kick the can down the road for more than a quarter of a century, which is what we have done.

Understand that your long-term growth and development economically, socially, all of that is based on a strong public education system.

If we don't have a strong public education system we are shooting ourselves in the foot as far as the future is concerned.

- [Chris] Terik.

- Yeah, that's where I was gonna go next, which is, you know we talk about a strong public education system, talk about good higher education and I worked at an HBCU, I'm just curious about.

- [Cobb-Hunter] What HBCU?

- Johnson C. Smith.

- [Cobb-Hunter] Was it Florida A&M University?

(laughing) - You don't have any connection there, do you?

(all laughing) - But in terms of like, you know and something we talked about, which is the legislative body in South Carolina, you know, created this foundation for enabling HBCUs within South Carolina.

So just curious about, you know, investing more into these institutions who are in these communities in South Carolina where they can be force multipliers.

Just wanna get your thoughts on, you know, how can you know the General Assembly and the HBCU community work together to further growth in these different areas?

- Well, I want you to start with my colleague Carl Blackstone and impress upon him how important HBCUs are.

We have done some stuff in South Carolina, but quite frankly, when you look at the issue of HBCUs across the country and the state of Maryland, for example there was just an issue, lawsuit settled with them.

Mississippi has been struggling.

What we do know is that HBCUs are responsible for over 80% of Black graduates in most professional fields.

There is a need for HBCUs and it kinda is the same difference as the K through, as the public education.

Not all young people are gonna be able to go to a private college.

We've gotta invest in our public institutions, we've gotta invest in our HBCUs because diversity as they say in France, viva la, you know what I'm trying to to say.

(all laughing) So it is to the state's, it's in the state's best interest to make that kind of investment.

I like to use the word investment as opposed to whatever because it is truly an investment.

And again, going back to South Carolina and our technical college system, Governor Hollings, at that time decided, you know, we need to understand not everybody wants to go to a four year school.

There are people with skills that if they go to a two year institution, can come out with good jobs.

We are gonna invest in the technical college system and look at where we are now.

We've got a workforce development training program that is bar none.

So it's a matter of pay me now or pay me later, pretty much.

- On the same thread of education.

Taking a little different path here.

You've served for a long time.

We've been friends for a long, very, very long time.

You've done a great job of working across the aisle.

I have seen this year we've got more new members of the House than I can ever remember.

I've sent a couple of your way as well to learn from you.

What advice are you giving new legislators today in this political climate to make sure that they're making right choices for the years to come?

- Carl, one of the things I shared with them at our reorganization session as a senior member, number one, I have to convene us in and all of that good stuff and say a word or two to the newbies.

And what I shared with them in December was you need to be clear on why you are there.

You know who you are and whose you are and understand why you are there.

Because if you get clear on the reason you are there that helps you determine what kind of legislator you'll be.

For example, if you are there because you like the title and the tags, you like people bowing and scraping and genuflecting, then you will tend to do what you need to do to stay there.

If you are there because you genuinely believe in public service, you want to help people, you want to make a difference, then you may tend to make different decisions and different choices.

So that, and develop a relationship with somebody new, somebody outside of your political party, somebody who has a different political philosophy than you do, because you know, all this homogeny is not good.

Not good for the souls, not good for the state.

It's just not good.

You know, you need differences, I think.

- We have a couple minutes left and President Biden, not surprisingly within the Democratic party I get the sense, but proposed this idea of moving the presidential primary to South Carolina and make that the first place from Iowa.

The Democrats went along and approved that idea.

As a party, what does that do to South Carolina?

What's the impact for the (indiscernible).

- You are going to be shocked at my response because quite frankly I can appreciate those members of the DNC.

I served on the DNC for 20 years and I can appreciate those members who say, "why are we going to South Carolina?"

When you look at the results of the November election, especially in the House, we lost seats.

We, the Republicans now have a super majority.

And my point, Chris, is if you use the notion of hosting a presidential primary as a way to build party, to party build, to recruit and all of that, and honesty, if we are all honest, we would have to say that this experiment for the last 20 years in South Carolina has been a failure.

We have had the presidential primary for 20 plus years or will be given what the DNC will do.

And so I can see the point that Georgia or North Carolina would make about being first.

And I say that because Georgia in particular has organized, they have built parties in rural areas and across the state.

North Carolina has done the same thing.

And while both Georgia and North Carolina are still Republican control, here in North Carolina, you at least have Governor Cooper and some other statewide people.

We have none of that in South Carolina.

And so I appreciate the president wanting to reward South Carolina.

But if truth be told, I think what we ought to consider is one of those two.

And then let South Carolina be first with the Republicans in South in February.

- I'm sorry to cut you off, we are literally outta time and that was a big one.

So congratulations.

But thank you for being on our program.

- Sure, and just if I may, because there were folk thinking I was gonna talk about Justice 40, I want y'all to.

- [Announcer] Gratefully acknowledging support by Martin Marietta, Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, Sonoco, High Point University, Colonial Life, the South Carolina Ports Authority, and by viewers like you.

Thank you.

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