>> "Workin' It Out," a podcast show about diversity, equity and inclusion in our workplaces, our communities, and our lives.

A show where we put diversity and inclusion to work.

>> [ Singing ] ♪ Got problems on the job?

♪ ♪ We’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workplace got you stressin'?

♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Yeah, we’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workin' it out, workin' it out ♪ ♪ With Dr. V ♪ >> Hello, I’m Dr. Vanessa Weaver, your host of "Workin' It Out."

And for over 30 years, I’ve had the pleasure and honor to deal with workplace challenges impacted by our diversity, equity, and inclusion and to turn those career roadblocks into really success stories.

We are so fortunate today to have as our guest Jemel McWilliams.

Jemel is an Emmy-nominated, uh, choreographer, one of -- one of two black men who choreographed the opening scene of the Oscars, and there’s a lot involved in that.

He’s going to tell us a little bit about it.

But he’s also been a choreographer, a creative director to stars like Alicia Keys, Janelle Monáe, Jon Batiste, uh, he was the artistic director for Lizzo and also for John Legend.

So he has an incredible story to tell us.

But in his story, we’re going to hear so many lessons that is important for all of us to learn as we’re trying to navigate these career directions, following our passion versus doing what’s maybe financial or physically the correct thing to do.

So welcome, Jemel.

>> Thank you, thank you, thank you, Dr. Weaver.

>> But just tell us a little bit about what a creative director does.

>> Yeah, so I’m a creative director, a choreographer.

Um, I -- in the creative direction role, I pretty much oversee all of the creative elements of the performance or whatever said, uh, entertaining moment that we’re presenting.

Um, so if we’re taking performance from lighting to wardrobe to, uh, movement to concept and vision, you know, um, it’s just a lot of direction, and your job is to bring all of the departments together to in some way, shape or form influence and just make sure that we’re all aligned with the vision of the artist and team.

>> So do you start off creating the vision with the artists that you want?

>> Yeah.

>> And then you like a director of a movie.

>> Essentially, yes.

>> ...for all of those pieces coming together to give us a story, and in fact, you were the -- you were the only second black person to choreograph the opening scene of the Oscars, for which you got -- Emmy-nominated.

>> Yes, yes.

It’s such an honor.

And I was the second black male to choreograph.

>> Second black male.

>> Yep, second black male.

>> Have any females, black females done that?

>> They have, they have.

Debbie Allen has graced that stage as um, choreographer for the opening of the Oscars, um, number.

But yeah, so it's -- it’s an honor to just be aligned with these people who have come before me and, you know... And this was in 2020.

Uh, the last one, the -- and the first black male was in 1977.

Since then, those many years, 40 plus years, 50 years, probably, um... obviously, there have been many -- I know many of my colleagues who are black males and black women who are absolutely talented and should have had that opportunity, but, you know, slowly but surely, we’re making sure that Hollywood and all the industries understand and respect who we are as creatives and are giving us our just due.

And I feel like, you know, we’re starting to see the tides turn.

I was so blessed to be aligned with Janelle Monáe for that moment because she, as just a visionary and an iconic artist and someone who is very, very, very grounded in her messaging and grounded in her purpose was very clear that the only way she would do this -- and I was blessed that she invited me to do it with her -- was the only way she would do it was if she could do it her way.

How?

Like herself.

And within that, she highlighted, uh, black and those of the diaspora.

And, you know, there’s even some small nuggets within it where she -- where she said, like, #OscarsSoWhite, you know, and she slipped that in there during it, during the performance, actually.

And no one expected that, but that was just on her heart to make sure she acknowledged the times that we were in and acknowledged that she understood what -- what she was doing and why she was there and that, um, you know, we’ll highlight it, but we’re here to make sure that you guys understand there’s a reason why you gave us a standing ovation, is because we can come do what needs to be done.

>> And -- and you did it so magnificently and so different.

You know, when you talk about diversity bringing innovation and different perspectives and lenses to a project, your Emmy-nominated vision did absolutely that.

And -- and you might say that was a long time ago.

That wasn’t that long ago that you did that work, and it made such an impact.

So how did you hook up with Janelle?

Because one of the things we often talk about is the importance of having people who will advocate for you.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, having people who are mentors and sponsors.

And clearly she was that for you.

I mean, because part of doing it her way was to have her creative director managing that.

So how -- how did that happen?

Did she just say it and it happened, or did it take some effort?

>> Well, you know, I think the -- the combination of who she is, is -- and -- and what she’s done in her career.

And, you know, Janelle started -- uh, she’s from Kansas City but then moved to Atlanta and was just out there grinding.

And she’s such a -- like, a generational talent, you know, um, that -- but she’s a generational talent who is very, very clear on her purpose.

And within that, she’s always stood ten toes down on that, you know?

And so I think that when anyone is booking an artist like that, you know, an artist of -- who’s clear of their convictions, you got to understand that this comes with that.

And -- and I will say that I feel so blessed to have been aligned with her majority of my career as a creative director, choreographer, um, even assistant choreographer, because that’s how I actually started with her, because she taught me how to stand on my morals and stand on my ethics and stand on who I am, regardless of what room we’re in.

And yes, so in that room, not only does she have me as a creative and choreographer, but she has her entire Wonderland team, and she’s like, very clear.

"We are sitting at this table.

"If you want me, Janelle Monáe, as the artist "to be out there representing your brand, "then we will do it our way.

"We will do it in collaboration with you, "but we will be sitting at the table with you.

"And because we are capable, we are gifted, "and we are aligned and appointed for this moment, "just like anyone else."

>> So what did that require of you?

>> Man... >> She had this confidence.

She -- she put her reputation on the line.

>> Yeah.

>> She had the team she wanted.

So what were the requirements of you?

>> Whoo!

I mean, something like that requires -- it’s just so much red tape in general.

Um, but something like that, because this was quite unique, they hadn’t done an opening like this where they didn’t have an opening monologue.

This was the opening monologue, right?

So we did it within song.

And so there’s a lot of -- and this was, you know, for a major broadcast, so there’s a lot of talking points and key points that they feel need to be met within the first two minutes of the broadcast in order to make sure that everyone watches for them, and it sets the tone and everyone watches for the remaining three hours, right?

And so, you know, you -- we spent months going back and forth over dialog, back and forth over linguistics and just the small words and languages.

So that’s before I even got to the choreography part, you know, just making sure that -- that the -- the films that they wanted highlighted were highlighted, but then also films that Janelle needed highlighted because they were directed by women, and that’s a platform that she stands for.

That’s a platform that we all stand for.

She made sure -- or films that were, um -- that told black stories, right?

She was very clear.

"I need that highlighted within this -- "within this opening, uh, sequence as well."

So, you know, there was a lot of back and forth.

But, you know, the Academy worked with us, we worked with the Academy, and we found this beautiful hybrid, um, and ground that we all love so much, and, you know, I think that shows the power of coming together and communicating because, you know, we weren’t -- we were not afraid to communicate where we were.

And again, we had such a fearless leader like Janelle, who’s very strong in her convictions, and we stood behind it.

>> So if you could isolate -- because now we have some people looking, and we say, "if you have --" we’re saying, "if you have a passion "and you always also have preparation --" I mean, because you have to have some skill, a lot of skill to do this.

>> Yeah.

>> So what were the, say, the top three lessons for you in terms of how you needed to show up?

Just... >> I will say... understanding the value and my worth as Jemel McWilliams.

How do I navigate this?

I know exactly how to navigate it if I -- if I’m true to my inner voice.

So that’s another thing is, is I spent time making sure that before I even went into any rooms that I spent time with myself, spent time with my inner voice.

Lastly, being sure of your convictions and your purpose and intention.

So again, it was easy for us to follow Janelle’s lead because we were very clear on her intentions and purpose of even taking this opportunity.

And standing on all three of those things allowed us, allowed me to walk out of there a fully-changed, transformed artist, um, and never to turn back.

So any room I walk into, expect Jemel McWilliams is coming as Jemel McWilliams.

He’s clear of his intentions and he’s going to do the work before I even go inside of there to make sure that I am one and centered.

>> Well, I’m just so glad you shared that, because in a lot of the work we do in Alignment Strategies -- that’s our consulting firm -- and we’re working with women, we’re looking -- working with people of color, black, Latinos, and Asians.

Sometimes, you know, the imposter syndrome -- syndrome leads.

>> Yeah.

>> And -- and you -- and they often project that they have to act like and be like everybody else.

And their uniqueness, their own personal conviction and values don’t always stand out.

>> Yeah.

>> They don’t always pop out.

So people feel like they can kind of control and manipulate, uh, you based on what they see, because they don’t understand the power and confidence that an individual has in themselves, so I’m just so glad you talked about that.

So being clear who you are, uh, being able to stand on your convictions, and being prepared.

>> That’s it.

>> Uh, that’s -- those are awesome lessons that any of us need to know.

Okay, so help us figure this out.

>> Okay.

>> So you’re in New York, you went to Drexel... >> Yes.

>> ...in Pennsylvania.

Your parents were just excited that their oldest born, their first born, they finished college, and, you know, he’s in IT and all of that, just -- and very brilliant in it.

Uh, honor student and all of that.

And now he wants to get into or continue this entertainment and choreography.

What in the heck is wrong with him versus being committed to a stable job, and helping pay back maybe some of those student loans.

How did you navigate that?

Because I know you have loving parents.

>> Yes.

>> So how did you -- how did you move through that space?

>> It made no sense.

None of it made any sense at all.

>> To you.

>> Yes.

To me or to anybody at that point, right?

But you know, so what?

Rewind.

I started as, you know, this kid who just loved performing.

I loved entertaining.

Like, you know, I tell this story about how the first day that my mom was like, "My boy is really into this" was we were at a stoplight, Michael Jackson came on the radio.

I couldn’t help myself.

I caught the spirit.

I jumped out and started doing my Michael.

Mm, mm, mm.

Started just doing my thing.

And she’s like, "Boy, if you don’t get your butt in this car, "we're at the stoplight, da-da-da-da-da-da."

This, uh -- this casting agent, uh, she had a talent, a full-talent, um, agency.

And she was honking the horn and she pulled my mother over.

My mother was like, "What’s wrong?

What’s wrong?"

She was like, "Your son’s a star."

My mother’s like, "Huh?

What are you talking about?

"He’s just doing him," you know?

But again, I had no formal training, but it was just something in my heart, right?

And then fast-forward to -- >> You had a gift.

>> Yeah, it was -- it’s a gift, yeah, for sure.

But fast forward, I did start training in DC.

I was dancing around DC.

Loved that.

But then I wanted to just go to high school.

Again -- I always go my own path, right?

I’ve always just followed my heart.

Then I said, "You know what?

"I’m done with this, like, dancing stuff.

"I want to do regular stuff.

"I want to chase the girls.

I want to do this.

"I want to be on a track team.

I want to do that."

Like, that’s what I focused on.

>> You want to be a teenager?

>> Yeah, I just wanted to be a high school teenager.

And so then went to college -- boom, nice job paying me almost $80,000 a year.

Fresh out of college, two degrees.

Bam!

No, because my heart was not fulfilled.

And my dad is like, "Hey, listen, listen, "you can get back to the heart in a little bit.

"Get some money to make sure you can sustain yourself."

And, you know, and I get it.

And my father loves me to death.

He loves all his kids to death.

And, you know, this was a path that he took that worked for him.

And he’s been able to sustain an amazing lifestyle, and -- and give us great leadership and direction, but it just wasn’t the path for me.

And so I took a leap on myself and was like, "Yeah, I’m not doing that, Dad.

"So love you, but I got to follow my heart."

And I decided to go to teach after school for a part-time job, after school program, making $100 a day.

>> Wow.

>> Yes, and then that caused me to -- >> That won’t add up to 80,000 a year.

>> No, no.

Nowhere close.

Nowhere close.

Not -- especially not living in New York City.

And at that point, I needed to go sustain myself to show and prove to my father and family, like, "Listen, I really believe in this, "and so if I have to be out on my own to do this, "then I will," and so that’s what I did.

But that is the catalyst that changed my life, because then, um, I-I had no choice but to really rely on self and to follow my heart and to follow what I felt in my heart, even when it wasn’t clear.

The path was not clear to me.

I did not know that I would then go after -- then be prompted to go back and train again just because I was teaching after school dance.

I thought I was just training to work with the kids, but I was training to set me up to then meet Beyoncé a couple years later because someone saw me in a class who was like, "I want to put you in a performance."

That performance, someone else saw me and was like, "You’re a star.

"I want you to meet someone I’m working with."

I walk into a studio after Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show, and she was like, "Hi, I’m Beyoncé."

And I was just like, "What?"

>> Oh, my goodness.

>> "Of course you are.

I’m Jemel, nice to meet you."

Which then has led to the trajectory of my life going from a dancer to an assistant choreographer, which is how I eventually met Alicia Keys and Janelle Monáe.

And I toured with both of them, and then got to evolve into being a choreographer for both of them.

And then with Janelle, got to evolve to being a performance creative director for her, and then here we are to this day.

I’m a creative director, choreographer, director, executive producer.

And again, it still don’t all make sense, but -- >> And you're one of the "it" people in Hollywood and New York and all over.

Oh, my goodness.

>> Yes.

>> So thinking about all of those experiences, you know, what’s the one lesson you can share with people looking at this show around how to navigate, you know, cultivating relationships and getting people to believe in you enough to recommend you for other -- to other high -- you know, high, you know, stars and other people who have significant careers?

Because, you know, most of the time, people are very funny about who they recommend.

>> Yeah.

>> So what’s the lesson?

If somebody was to take away that conversation you just had, what’s the one lesson you would tell them?

>> I think that these lessons, the lessons require each other.

But believe in yourself.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And do the work.

Prepare.

So you know I think what happens a lot of times is, you know, you’ll have someone who may have strong convictions for something, but they don’t believe that they can actually achieve said thing.

And because they don’t believe in themselves enough.

And so because they don’t believe in themselves, they don’t fully invest themselves into the preparation of it, into the blood, sweat and tears which every industry is going to require.

Every greatness requires that.

And you also don’t want it without that because the value of it increases the more you actually get to put your heart into it and the more you actually dedicate yourself to the process, because that’s where you learn so much.

That’s where you gain so much.

>> Yeah.

You know, it’s interesting because, you know, as we deal with these multiple generations in an organization from people who are about ready to retire, for people who are kind of been there 20, 25 years and trying to get to the least, their next -- last promotion to people who are new in the organization.

I mean, one of the criticism we often have -- and I don’t know that it’s true -- but that millennials don’t often want to make the investment in the work.

>> My influence has taught me that like, yeah, you will be an intern for years for free.

Like, you know, you say that in this age, and people are like, "Law and this and labor laws and that."

And listen, I get it.

I understand.

I’m just saying the values that I learned for -- of being dedicated to something that I want enough to do that I would do it for free, enough that I would start at the mail room and be able to work my way up to president.

Like, you know, you don’t often see that in nowadays because there is such, um, opportunity for instant, uh, acclaim and gratification.

But there's something different when you have worked hard for something, you’ve toiled for it, um, and you achieve it.

>> Wow.

>> It’s not about -- nothing is about the destination.

It’s about the journey to the destination.

And when you allow yourself to really be committed to that journey, what you get to uncover is so beautiful because you also get to uncover the nooks and crannies and the things that you didn’t even know along the journey that are actually so much more fulfilling than what you might have come into in your ignorance.

You are ignorant when you first start this thing.

All you know is, "I want to do that.

"I want to be the president of that."

And as you navigate, what you get to learn is actually, the president is cool, but man, what I get to do over here that I didn’t know had I not actually come from the mailroom all the way up.

This is what happened to me as a dancer.

I was a dancer first.

I had no intention of being a director, but I injured my knee as a dancer and I stayed in it.

And so I had to get behind the camera because I wanted to stay connected to what I was doing.

I didn’t give up.

I needed to stay connected.

But me getting behind the camera showed me that I actually have vision that’s much bigger than some five, six, seven, eight steps, but that I really wanted to understand how the lights, why the lights move the way they did, or why would the camera swoop in, or why would we take this reverse shot, like, all of these things that I then said, "I want to go study this."

But I had no idea -- I was ignorant to those opportunities within what I thought was going to be just my destination, which is dancing with Beyonce.

I did that, I did that many times over, but I was exposed to -- to all of the -- the beauty of what the journey brought to me.

And that’s why today, I have so many things and I’m multi-hyphenate because I got a chance to experience it all, because I wasn’t afraid to jump in there.

>> I’m just so excited listening to your story.

I tell you, I’m just sitting up here beaming.

Because, you know, I was going to ask you about -- did you have a failed experience or were you ever off-ramped in your career in the direction.

And you just told us you busted your knee which affected your dancing, you know, and you could -- you could have been depressed about that.

You could -- >> I was.

>> Okay -- >> But I just didn’t quit.

>> So how’d you get out of that depression about that?

Tell us that.

>> I went -- I -- I busted my knee.

Okay, I auditioned for Beyonce.

They were only looking for two guys.

One guy, sorry.

They were only looking for one guy.

And I had that -- she was a dream job of mine, largely because she’s just amazing, but also because I was influenced when I first came into the industry.

People were like, "You’re like a Beyonce dancer."

And I was like, "Okay, I’m a Beyonce dancer," right?

But again, um, she’s always still a dream job because she’s, like, one of the hardest-working, most iconic artists of our time, right?

But, um, I was at, like, the very tail end of this audition.

I had a show the very next night.

So the audition was on a Thursday, the callback was on a Saturday, I had a show on that Friday.

I busted my knee, had to get surgery on that Friday at this show.

While I was in the surgeon’s office on that Saturday, because it was an emergency, and he was breaking it down to me that I was going to be out for the next six months, I was getting calls from the Beyonce dancers like, "Where are you right now?

Trust me --" and they couldn’t tell me anything -- "but you should be here right now.

"Trust me," you know?

Um, now, obviously, nobody has officially confirmed, but we already know what that energy was giving, right?

And I was heartbroken.

I tried to -- he told me three to six months based on my healing.

I tried to be back in a month, right?

I was calling her people, calling Frank Gatson, who was her creative director, choreographer at that time.

Like, "I can do it, I can do it."

And it just was failed mission, failed mission.

And I was at the point where I was willing to sacrifice my -- my health in order to get this job.

And through that, it sat me down and really forced me to get into myself more, which was the biggest blessing, because this injury was actually my blessing, because I realized that I had lost sight of who I was.

I had lost sight of my convictions and morals because never would I be that desperate for a job that I would be willing to give up.

Regardless, dream job or not, I should never sacrifice myself and my health and my value, my personal value, because I’m not going to get down on myself.

I got depressed, but I was able to pull myself out of the depression, you know, thank God, and pull myself out of the depression and be stronger when I came out of it, and I’ll never go back that way.

Now, I might fall this way, but that’ll be a different way.

>> Different way.

You couldn’t do Beyonce, but you figured out a broader opportunity, a broader picture for yourself.

I just think it’s amazing the stories that you shared with us today, and anybody listening to this show has a lot of lessons that they could think about, reflect about, and I’m sure apply to their own lives.

So I just want to thank you for being a part of our show today and inspiring young people, older people, to pursue their passion, but be prepared.

So on behalf of our work and our audience and my staff and crew, we want to thank you for being here.

>> Thank you so much.

Thank you for this platform.

Thank you for this opportunity to even just share who I am, and all people, we can do this.

>> Absolutely.

Well, I’m going to close our show today with our little standard phrase of, you know, have a great week and more -- most importantly, have what we call a be-happy week.

So I’m Dr. Vanessa Weaver, your host of "Workin' It Out" along with Jemel McWilliams, uh, creative director to the stars.

And we’re going to say goodbye.

>> ♪ Got problems on the job?

♪ ♪ We're workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workplace got you stressin' ♪ ♪ We’re working it out ♪ ♪ Yeah, we’re workin' it out ♪ ♪ Workin' it out, workin' it out ♪ ♪ With Dr. V ♪