Hello.

Thanks for joining us for sustaining us here on KLCS PBS I'm David Nazar.

When we talk about Los Angeles, this city is synonymous with amazing weather, great beaches, movie studios, iconic sports franchises.

It is not often we talk about a massive river, a river that winds its way through L LA's concrete jungle, an actual river with water.

Well, the L.A. River is part of the iconic history of the City of Angels, a 50 mile river that basically runs from downtown Los Angeles through parts of the county on out to the Pacific Ocean.

This river property is now some of the most valuable real estate in the entire U.S.. Not without its controversy, which we are going to discuss later.

The L.A. River is also part of a massive multiple billion dollar restoration and revitalization plan, as Los Angeles city leaders and county leaders, they all work with different groups, business interests and environmental agencies to bring the L.A. River back to life.

And that's where we begin our broadcast.

Many Angelinos have no idea.

This is the L.A. River, just part of the 51 miles as the river winds through downtown Los Angeles.

Encased in concrete, this section of river has provided the perfect backdrop for hundreds of TV and blockbuster movie scenes over the years.

So much so the L.A. River kind of morphed into its own Hollywood movie studio.

The L.A. River has a celebrated history that spans decades.

In the 1930s, Congress had the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers tame the river after a series of floods during a devastating rainy season, demolished homes and bridges and destroyed lives.

Since then, that government controlled effort to keep the river in check has served Los Angeles well, basically giving the city a massive industrial strength storm drain.

This way, when there is a lot of rain, which isn't too often in southern California, all the water runoff throughout the city can filter out to sea.

However, these days there are so many more uses planned for the future of the L.A. River than just a city sized storm drain.

For several years, Los Angeles city and county leaders have been working with anyone and everyone with a vested interest to bring the L.A. River back to life.

This collaborative river revitalization effort involves the mayor's office, the state of California, local community based organizations, business leaders, real estate developers, environmental groups, nonprofits, and certainly the river neighbors.

The L.A. River spans a swath of Southern California real estate, beginning in the Santa Susanna mountains, working its way through L.A. County in the San Fernando Valley, downtown L.A. and the Elysian Valley West Los Angeles through Long Beach, eventually out to the Pacific Ocean.

The million dollar question what exactly should be built out here along the river?

Should there be more environmentally friendly construction?

That includes things like more kayaking, hiking trails, bike paths, walkways, equestrian facilities, parkland of all sorts with open space, green space, more plants, trees and wildlife.

Or should this multibillion dollar L.A. River revitalization plan also include things like million dollar condos, tall, big block housing complexes, multistory buildings and commercial space, mixed use structures, retail, in other words, more urban sprawl out here, or possibly some sort of a combination of all of this.

That's a tough decision because there are so many interests involved and some with different plans.

Ed Reyes has a plan.

You possibly recognize him as a former L.A. city councilmember who began his river effort back in 2001 with an imagination to create a great park of sorts out here.

Reyes is imagination for a new L.A. River future really took root in the past when he was a kid living in Cyprus Park near the river back in the sixties and seventies.

As a youngster, I saw how kids like myself could not even play at the playgrounds because of the infestation of gangs, the fighting, the homicides that recurring.

So we found this through an accident, and my friends and I and our bikes were running through the rail cars, basically maneuvering the little rail yards, found the fence through our bikes over, and we saw this.

So this became our Shangri-La.

We didn't have to fight to be here.

We didn't have to endanger ourselves or put ourselves in harm's way with the gang culture that was very pervasive at the time.

So connecting that reality and creating relief, open space and access to this type of ecosystem is something all Angelinos should enjoy as well as the whole region.

All 51 miles.

Reyes says today.

His plan for revitalizing the L.A. River is all about combining the environmental and the economic.

He says a real estate development out here must be what he dubs good, smart residential and commercial construction.

Reyes believes that in the next few decades, with the river build out, families from all walks of life, from all sorts of disadvantaged communities are going to have opportunities like never before.

For example, he says, by taking the kids to the neighboring L.A. River for affordable and healthy activities instead of more costly faraway beach or mountain excursions, or even replacing a visit to Disneyland with a visit to the river.

Because Reyes insists that a revitalized L.A. river is all about what he terms the human condition, he hopes to eventually give parents the option to get out of their concrete jungle with no park land or open space.

Reyes insists the L.A. River revitalization is all about environmental justice and social justice.

My dream is that we sustain the objective of flood control, that we sustain the objective of community safety.

But let's use creative architecture where we don't need the cement.

My dream is to see all this gray and cement to as much as possible be eliminated and replace it with something green, something natural that allows the communities to embrace and enjoy nature.

But I also want to see on the properties along the corridor facilities that speaks to our needs as a community.

Mixed uses.

What does that mean?

Combining housing with services.

Child care, senior care.

Health services.

We're actually creating greenways and enough trees to neutralize all the pollutants that come off our freeways.

In this pocket alone, there's five freeway interchanges.

So the community here gets penalized.

Same thing with South L.A..

The southern part of the Lower River.

But that's a pocket has very little green, very little parking space.

So to complement the social fabric, the built out environment, the architecture for these kinds of facilities where you have access to affordable housing, housing where people that live in these neighborhoods can stay in their own neighborhoods.

That, to me, would be a great step in being able to create that access and address the issues of social justice.

The plan's goals are to reconnect Angelinos with the river.

Carol Armstrong is collaborating with Ed Reyes.

Armstrong is the executive officer for city services in the L.A. mayor's office, and she's the project manager for the L.A. River Revitalization Master Plan.

This plan is expected to be implemented over the next 50 years with a total buildout cost of anywhere from 2 to $5 billion.

The L.A. River revitalization effort is to bring people to the river, making an important part of their daily lives, to restore the habitat in the river and to respect its nature and realize how valuable that nature is to not only the physical health of people, but their mental health as well.

The city Council adopted the master plan back in 2007, and since then we have attracted over $500 million to river projects and one of our primary goals is to finally complete the 51 mile bike path along the Los Angeles River.

While funding is an obstacle, but also you need to get community support for the project.

They need to understand what it's going to look like and have some say in what it's going to be about.

And so the trails not only are good for bike paths and walking, but they also connect a network of parks and open spaces.

So we have really prioritized looking at neglected, forgotten little spaces to create a network of parks like Sunny Nook River Park and then also a number of bridges, right?

So there are a number of bridges that have been built to literally connect people that were divided when the river was channelized in the 1930s.

Armstrong acknowledges that over the years, the L.A. River plan has been controversial and there has been a contentious relationship among some of the various special interests with some of the developers, some of the users of the river, some of the neighbors who live along the river, and some of the critics.

She knows that not everyone is in agreement with the construction plans.

However, she says the L.A. River Revitalization Group is doing everything possible to work with all parties involved for a win win situation.

With 51 miles of river, you've got 102 miles of riverfront and all communities are different.

So some communities are interested in having parks and trails, or they want more habitat or they want, you know, artistic features.

So it all depends.

Sometimes you have conflicts of users like here in Illusion Valley.

A lot of people like to use the trails for walking, but then there are some cyclists that like to use it for high speed cycling.

So sometimes conflict arises on what what the common space is used for.

But we find that often by coming together, there's common ground.

Deborah Weintraub is the chief deputy city engineer for the city of Los Angeles.

Weintraub also works with Ed Reyes and Carol Armstrong.

She says there are more than 200 L.A. River projects currently in the works.

And Weintraub explains some of the more recent projects she's been helping with as part of the massive revitalization plan.

We've taken unused space next to the freeway in addition Valley and created a park along the river.

We've built a bridge for horses.

There's a large horse community on the east side of the river who previously had to cross through the river and it was dangerous.

So we built an equestrian bridge.

We've purchased 40 acres of land.

We're in the process of planning at a crucial junction in the river.

Also Evolution Valley.

We've done multiple bike paths in the San Fernando Valley, and we're in the process of planning the bike paths that will fill out the gaps so that you will be able to go from the origins of the river and the West San Fernando Valley all the way to Long Beach.

On this bike and walking path.

That's a big goal of ours.

So one of the most important project I'm working on personally every day is planning the Taylor Yard G-2 site, which is a 42 acre site that the city purchased a couple of years ago.

And we're collaborating with the Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority and state parks, because between the Taylor Yard G-2 site, a state park site to the north of US one, and then an existing park, Rio de Los Angeles, it's over 100 acres of open space and it's right at the midpoint of the river, the entire river.

And it's an important site that for years community members, river advocates have said it's crucial to bring to restore and bring back to public use, build up that natural habitat in the best way possible.

But let's not forget the human factor.

Let's not forget what's happened.

People every day, especially in COVID 19 environment.

Where do they go?

Where can they go?

This is open space.

Why not make it inviting?

Why not make it healthy?

And why not make it complementary to the ecosystems, the natural habitats that are part of this corridor?

We all realize that we had a river here, and I don't think that was really in the public awareness before that.

And that even though it had been lined as a flood control measure, it was still a river that had life and activity on it that the public could make use of.

So it's about sustainability in the sense that it's about bringing to life a huge piece of urban infrastructure that really had been neglected and had been hidden from the city.

This talk about how we make change for the people who live along the corridor, but let them decide for themselves.

Let the community be their own advocates.

Now for more information about everything going on with the River Revitalization plan, just click on L.A. River, dawg.

That's L.A. River, Dawg.

Now, as the future of the L.A. River is being mapped out, there's been a stormy relationship, to say the least, with various interests involved in this revitalization project.

The city and county leaders, the environmentalists, business interests like real estate developers, and certainly the neighbors over exactly how building along the river's edge should be done, if at all.

Well, joining me now to discuss all of this further is Stephanie Pencil.

Stephanie is a professor at the UCLA Institute of the Environment and Sustainability and founding director of the California Center for Sustainable Communities at UCLA.

Stephanie leads a team of researchers who study how to make communities sustainable, focusing on issues issues such as water and energy.

Stephanie, thank you so much for being here.

It's my pleasure.

Thank you.

Just tell me first to start, what is your center all about and what do you folks do over there?

And then we'll get into our discussion.

All right.

So we're a research center at UCLA, and we have been looking at the question of how cities can be more sustainable, including energy use and energy provisions.

So big centralized solar versus distributed generation versus natural gas and very complex questions, as well as how much water people use, what we use water for.

And if L.A. could become water self-reliant.

Those are a couple of the big highlights of what we work on.

But we worked on lots of other things too.

Perfect segue way.

You're the perfect person for us to speak with then.

So let's get back to the field report.

Obviously, as you know, for several years, L.A. city, county leaders, they've all been working, as I mentioned earlier, with the mayor's office, places like the state of California, local organizations, all kinds of business leaders, real estate developers, environmentalists, even a nonprofit groups, etc.. You know, they want to revitalize the L.A. River.

They've been talking, Stephanie, as you know, about things like the housing, the apartments, I mean, even condos, mixed use retail, the nature retreats, hiking paths, biking, just a lot of green space, a ton of development, really too much for me to list.

So it really does sound like a good plan.

Is there anything wrong with all of this, Stephanie?

Well, not in the general idea of providing better access to open space for people, but one of the biggest issues is really to realize the L.A. River has been channelized for very good reasons.

Property values and properties can be in jeopardy if there are very big surges of water.

And as we know, climate is going to be affecting precipitation so that we're dry and then we're full of water.

And so the question becomes very complicated about how you provide the kinds of open space access to a concrete channel, essentially, and what that what that means for the city and the other cities all along the river channel.

During the field report, we spoke with Ed Reyes with River L.A.

He seemed to have had a good point in the story.

He said, why not have this be a more inexpensive destination place?

He's talking about disadvantage as families of people of color who oftentimes don't have the opportunities that others have.

And he said, you sort of create this ecosystem of not just a community and its infrastructure, but also of nature.

Correct.

Well, I think the the that the question really has to be looked at in detail.

So if you're living in South L.A., I'm down to the harbor area and what you have is along concrete channel.

What does going to nature mean when you have a long, concrete channel?

Probably not a lot of nature unless you build a whole lot of additional infrastructure.

So I have read that there are plans to build bridges with nature on the bridges so people can get access to nature.

There.

It is a very engineered approach.

Once again, we've engineered the system, now we're engineering open space.

And I guess some of the questions that I would ask are about the ways in which we're thinking about these communities and cities and their lack of open space.

So is it worth creating additional infrastructure along the river to provide access to people that are or can we think about creative ways to retrofit green in existing communities so that they have a more dispersed availability of green other than just being a communities adjacent along the river?

So I think there are a lot of tradeoffs there.

So are you saying stuff that this is too much of an ambitious plan, too grandiose a plan, so to speak?

No, I think that it's a narrow plan.

And actually, bizarrely enough, it's a it's a plan that looks at a concrete river channel that dreams of the past, of a free flowing river, which we don't want, because today there are too many houses and people in the way.

And that tries to jam in a whole set of different and complex and conflicting desires because as we've managed to get the Army Corps of Engineers to believe that that's a map of the whole river.

So there's plenty.

So the fact that there's money provides an opportunity, the fact that that opportunity is trying to meet everybody's wishes, wants and desires becomes a point of conflict.

And getting back to Ed Reyes in our field report, I've heard not just Ed, but others repeatedly say that the L.A. River revitalization is really all about what they term and I've heard you use these words to Stephani, environmental justice.

Social justice.

It's definitely something you know, about.

You spent part of your career really studying and talking about this and effecting change.

You and I have talked about this in other reports.

That's what he's saying.

That's what others are saying.

Well, I'm sure that that there's some truth to that.

And there's a lot of realization today of the way in which L.A. and its multiple cities have developed that have created a lot of environmental injustice.

That's true.

It is a kind of a wonderful dream to revitalize what was once the river.

But I think that there are the consequences of that kind of approach.

If you look at the High Line in New York and you think of a parallel approach for a high line kind of, you know, at the L.A. River, I know that there's been a lot of concern about gentrification, but, you know, it is a real question now.

Do we leave people bereft of open space because we're concerned about gentrification?

Do we provide open space because they need it?

These are really complicated questions that require an enormous amount of thought and probably a lot more money to think about keeping people in place.

Should L.A. River money be used to buy land in the adjacent cities and hold that housing in trust so that people can afford to live in it?

Is that just as good a use and then provide walking pathways along the river without all the bells and whistles?

I don't know.

But I think that it's a bit of a rock and a hard place because of this dream of the river that is kind of not made it possible to think about other strategies that could improve open space in a more granular way in lots of different little cities in South L.A.. And you make a good argument.

Certainly you talk about money.

Fair to say the cost is.

Listen, this thing is off the charts anywhere from I believe the the amount is 2 to 5 billion.

Yeah, I said billion dollars for this build out of the L.A. River.

Do you believe Stephanie, that the money could be spent more wisely, or how would you spend that money?

Because you're the one that mentioned money?

Well, I don't think it's possible because the money, as we know in government is so right.

You would not be able to get access to that money to do anything else.

And that's part of the dilemma, actually, because if you want to be able to improve the quality of people's lives, you look for sources of money.

But then there are all these strings attached has to be for the L.A. River revitalization, because that's the money that's available in it.

And it really creates a kind of path, dependency in a certain kind of direction that then becomes a set of blinders and a certain set.

It's about everything else that's maybe possible to do or might be desirable.

We don't have we haven't even explored those other alternatives because, you know, possibly looking at the money.

And broadening out the discussion in the last few minutes.

Stephanie, why in your opinion, has there been maybe I should say, such a contentious relationship, for lack of a better word, with so many of the parties involved with this revitalization project?

You know, we talked about earlier the environmentalists, the business interests, and certainly the folks who live there now.

They own houses near the river.

Why the controversy, in your opinion?

It's a kind of deep question.

The L.A. River idea was really started by conceptual artists to help some performance, the Tillman River.

And then the idea took off.

I think led in part by the environmental community.

And then it got kind of captured by all these other interests and left a lot of people behind in the process.

And as the river revitalization Project just moved forward, they've tried to bring to make up for that by bringing a lot of people in.

But there's a there's a kind of initial resentment that's been very hard to overcome and also fear of change by those by those communities.

There's also the fact that when you do the revitalize, there are new economic investment prospects.

And so what's going to happen is you're starting to build more and more new kinds of housing in these areas to the people who live there and the lifestyles that they have.

So I think it's you know, it's not an unexpected kind of set of controversies, but I do think that it's going to be a long, long process, that's for sure.

Final question, Stephanie, and thank you.

We balance this out as much as possible on this program as you know, the in the field report, they were really talking about all the positives.

You talked about some of the negatives.

In fairness, can you, Stephanie, identify any positives with this massive project?

As you know, there are many people who are definitely in favor of this plan.

Do you see any positives?

Oh, well, I think that's a completely sure question.

I think that recognizing that Los Angeles has a river in itself is a huge positive.

Right.

And to think about how we as a community want that river to be treated or respected or revitalized is an enormous positive.

And I would also add two things.

One, I think that those folks who have been working on the hydrology and the and the Dian River dynamics have done a very good job.

And so we know a whole lot more about the situation than we really did before.

And with any luck at all, the attention to the process will gradually create more happy for all of the participants.

Thank you so much, Stephanie Purcell, for really a great interview.

So greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

All right.

You're very welcome.

Thank you.

And for more information about our program, just click on KLCS.org and then click.

Contact us to send us your questions or your comments, even story ideas so we can hear from you.

And we will get back to you.

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Thank you so much for joining us for this edition of Sustaining US here on KLCS PBS, I'm David Nazar.