♪ ♪ (theme music plays) RUBENSTEIN: Hello, I'm David Rubenstein.

I'm gonna be in conversation today with Leslie M. Harris, who is Professor of History and African-American Studies at Northwestern University and we're gonna discuss her book, In the Shadow of Slavery.

And, we are coming to you from the Robert H. Smith auditorium in the New York Historical Society.

So, uh, what propelled you to write a book about African-Americans from 1626 to 1863?

That seems like a little esoteric subject.

So what propelled you to do that?

HARRIS: Well, thanks for having me today.

Uh, there were a number of ways in which I was propelled to write that book.

I grew up in New Orleans, but I was always fascinated by New York City.

And when I came to New York, finally to go to college at Columbia, the New York I learned about was the Harlem Renaissance New York.

Then I went to graduate school and I read a fantastic book about women in New York City in the pre-Civil War period and I thought, "Well, what's going on with Black people during that time?"

There were few mentions of African-Americans.

So, I began to investigate that and realized that New York was the place where the first Black newspapers started.

There had been this incredibly active anti-slavery movement and there had been gradual emancipation because there had been slaves in New York.

And I wasn't completely surprised that there was slavery in New York, but I was, uh, curious to know more about it.

And so, that's how I, over time, began to investigate not only African-Americans in the 1820s to the Civil War, but also this earlier period that I really knew almost nothing about.

RUBENSTEIN: So, 1619 is the year that the first African-Americans became slaves in the United States then said to be in Virginia.

Uh, when did African-Americans become or anybody become slaves initially in New York?

HARRIS: So, we think 1626, um, the Dutch, uh, East India Company brought 11 enslaved men to the colony and they had settled the colony three years before.

They brought them here to build the infrastructure of the, of the city.

RUBENSTEIN: Were they Africans?

HARRIS: They were Africans as best we know, although, their names are a mixture of, um, uh, European names, some, like, Simon Congo, so Congo referring to Africa, but Simon as a more Christian name.

There was some with, um, the last names that are, uh, Portuguese even.

So, this was a time when, um, European enslavers might capture people on the coast of Africa, but might also pick them up, say, in the Caribbean or in other places.

RUBENSTEIN: And there was slavery in the 1620s in the Caribbean?

HARRIS: Absolutely.

So, Columbus, when he came in 1492, he brought sugar cane in the hold of his ship because he had already experienced slavery in the islands off the coast of Africa.

So, you can think that he's already imagining that he might bring slaves here as well.

RUBENSTEIN: All right.

So, New York or Manhattan as we now would call it, uh, was then, uh, owned by the Dutch.

Is that right?

HARRIS: Correct.

RUBENSTEIN: And that's why the place was called, initially, New Amsterdam?

HARRIS: Exactly.

The city was called New Amsterdam, the colony is New Netherland.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So, and the New York that was settled in New Amsterdam was now what is down, is Wall Street.

HARRIS: And below.

Far below.

And remember, this is a very small group of people initially.

We're talking about a tiny number.

By the time the Dutch, uh, lose New Amsterdam to the British, there are about 400 enslaved people, people of African descent and about, uh, uh, the total population is about 2,000 at the most.

RUBENSTEIN: When the Dutch are in control of New Amsterdam, they have some imported slaves.

HARRIS: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: So, uh, what kinda jobs did they do?

Do they just do the most menial jobs and the most difficult jobs?

HARRIS: So we often think of slavery as something that means me, menial jobs, simple jobs, but in many slave societies of which this was one, enslaved people do every kind of job.

They built the infrastructure.

They built the buildings.

They did, uh, skilled labor.

Um, initially, the company bought enslaved people, but when individuals who were business owners bought enslaved people, they would train them to do the work that they did.

RUBENSTEIN: All right so the British take control in what year?

HARRIS: It's, uh, 1664.

RUBENSTEIN: All right.

And did the, the British at that time, slavery is legal in England, is that right?

HARRIS: That's correct.

It's legal, uh, even more importantly, it's legal in British colonies in the Caribbean.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So what point did, uh, slaves in, uh, New Amsterdam or now New York, um, become free?

In other words, they, some of them did escape or did buy their freedom.

HARRIS: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: How did you, uh, be, become free in that period of time?

HARRIS: So, in the, under the Dutch, there was this period of half freedom, which, in which some enslaved people lived on separate land and in fact, some of that land is the west village today.

Under the British, all of those possibilities of gaining freedom were closed off to enslaved people and it's really not until the revolutionary era that, people in the British colonies began to discuss that maybe slavery is not in line with the u, ideals of freedom and liberty that are emerging during the revolutionary era.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, the British often said, "Well, how can you de-claim you Americans that we are, uh, holding you as slaves when you're holding, um, African-Americans as slaves?"

HARRIS: Absolutely.

That was one of the huge fault lines, um, among the founding fathers themselves and when, um, even the French as well looked at, um, the founding fathers and said, "You're about to free yourselves.

Don't you think you should also end slavery?"

But it actually took, um, for New York, they didn't pass a law to end slavery until 1799, so much longer.

And they were the second to last state to pass a law in the north to end slavery.

Of course, slavery continues in the south.

RUBENSTEIN: So, during the revolutionary war, the British, to get more, um, soldiers would say, "If you are a slave and you escape, and you come help us in the fighting, we will give you freedom when the war is over, which we presumably will win."

HARRIS: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: And did a lot of New Yorkers, um, go into that?

HARRIS: Yes, New York and then Charleston.

Charleston was the largest place where this happens, where, um, enslaved people who went to the British left through, but New York is very large location for that as well.

RUBENSTEIN: And when that happened and then the war was over, the other side uh, the British did not win, as I recall.

Um... HARRIS: Yes, you're right.

RUBENSTEIN: So when they did not win, did they honor their commitment to take these slaves back with them to England or did some go to Canada or what did they do?

HARRIS: This is a, a, a great question.

Some did go with them to England.

Some went to Canada.

Some we fear were sold back into slavery in the Caribbean.

So, the British did take people, but they didn't always honor that commitment.

It depended.

RUBENSTEIN: So when the Constitution is set up, uh, basically, we have a deal that says, "We're gonna let slavery continue" essentially, not outlawing it, and the slave trade can continue for another, I think it was 20 years or so... HARRIS: To 1807.

RUBENSTEIN: Afterwards, so, uh, we didn't outlaw slavery, but were there people in the north, whites, saying that this is immoral and we should begin to end slavery?

HARRIS: Absolutely.

There actually people all over who were asking that question after the war ends.

Even in Virginia and Maryland, because the tobacco, uh, economy had kinda dried up.

It was in a bust state and so people were thinking, "Well, if we have these people and we can't employ them, maybe we should think about ending slavery."

And there are many whites even in the south who are thinking this is not the best system that we have, but they cannot figure out how to get themselves out of it.

RUBENSTEIN: So, the slaves, uh, were working for no compensation.

They're being given, not great places to, uh, to live and their families are broken up or not allowed to be created.

But were they tortured in ways of, physical punishment if they didn't do what the slave owners wanted?

Is there e, evidence of that?

HARRIS: In New York?

RUBENSTEIN: New York.

Yes.

HARRIS: Particularly?

Oh, sure.

I mean, this is not, if you were in a slave society, all of the tools of oppression are yours.

And so, New York in that sense is not different from other places.

For example, after the slave rebellion in 1741 of the Slave Conspiracy, um, some people are drawn and quartered, some are burned at the stake, some are sent away.

These are people who are thought to have been, um, uh, have been part of that slave rebellion.

So you have a, kinda, mass murder that happens in response to this crime.

So that is, that fear that is inculcated.

That is a central part of the way slavery is, uh, run and kept going in the Americas, no matter where you are.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, after the Revolutionary War, uh, and the Constitution is put into effect, the south has a license to continue to use slaves.

And because of cotton and the cotton gin and so forth, uh, slavery is becoming bigger than it every had been before.

HARRIS: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: But in the north, was slavery growing a, exponentially the way it was in the south or was slavery not in the south, not in the north growing very much?

HARRIS: This is a great question.

So, slavery in the north is different.

It is much smaller.

It doesn't have the, sorta, plantation aspect and so, you have smaller numbers of slaves in the north than, than you do in the south.

And particularly, one the cotton economy takes off, it's a whole different level in, in terms of slavery in the south.

RUBENSTEIN: So, in the north, after the Revolutionary War, when some, uh, slaves had been freed for whatever reason or maybe they bought their freedom or maybe they escaped, if they were freed slaves, let's suppose they escaped from the south and they came to New York City uh, were they allowed to lives as free, uh, Black people then or were they not?

HARRIS: Only after the Gradual Emancipation Law passes in 1799.

It doesn't free enslaved people technically.

What it says is that the children of enslaved women born after July 4th, 1799, those children are born into an indenture and they have to serve their mother's master until they're 23 if female, 25 if male.

So, this means a couple of things.

They are free in a sense.

They're not born into slavery, but they still give most of their working life, given the life span of people, uh, the average, um, life span is 40.

They give most of their working life to their mother's owner and then they become free.

RUBENSTEIN: And did that actual happen?

Was that agreement honored?

HARRIS: Yes.

That is honored.

The New York Manumission Society is one of the organizations among many that makes sure that those agreements were honored.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, you mentioned New York Manumission Society, what is that?

What, what e, those manumission societies, what were they doing?

HARRIS: So, the New York Manumission Society was founded in 1785 and they worked, um, until the law and after the law was passed in 1799 to get a gradual emancipation law in the books.

And then after that, they worked with free Blacks to make sure that they had jobs, that they opened the African free schools, they tried to provide education.

They also provided legal services to Blacks who were illegally enslaved or harmed in some way.

So they really become, uh, this group that is looking to advance Black freedom.

RUBENSTEIN: And who is behind the Manumission Society?

Is it Blacks or is it whites?

HARRIS: This is an all-white society.

It's, um, Quaker in influence, but there are also Anglicans and other religious people.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

HARRIS: John Jay is a member.

And they work with Blacks, but they are not, uh, they don't see Blacks as equals.

That's very clear.

RUBENSTEIN: So you could be as John Jay was, a member of the, uh, New York Manumission Society, but still be a slave owner.

HARRIS: Absolutely.

And, uh, my friend, the historian, Shane White has argued that if the Manumission Society had freed their own slaves, that number of free Blacks would've advanced by 10%.

RUBENSTEIN: So in 1817, New York finally says, "We're gonna outlaw slavery."

Is that when they did it?

HARRIS: So, 1817 this is after the War of 1812.

Finally, there's a governor, Governor Tompkins is friendly to ending slavery, not just through gradual emancipation.

So, in 1817, he convinces the New York State Legislature to pass a law that in a decade, in eight, July 4th, 1827, we will free all enslaved people.

RUBENSTEIN: And was that honored in 1827?

HARRIS: That was honored in 1827.

I still have a question, though, what happens to the people who were in indentures.

Did they have to serve out those indentures and I'm still not clear about that.

RUBENSTEIN: Let's suppose you come to New York and you were an escaped slave, and it's 1827.

HARRIS: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, do you have to be returned to your slave owner in the south under the Constitution and the laws or not?

HARRIS: Yes.

Yes.

So that is true, um, there's a clause in the Constitution that says that those, uh, servants who escaped must be returned across state lines and this is reinforced in 1793 with the Prigg vs. Pennsylvania law.

And this is a, a, a, a thing that as the north becomes more anti-slavery becomes a real point of contention with northern states going back and forth on whether or not they had a duty to literally make sure that enslaved people returned.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright.

Now, there is a movement afoot at some point later on.

It's called the Colonization Movement.

HARRIS: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Can you explain what colonization is?

HARRIS: So, colonization in this context is this idea of repatriation, this idea of sending Black people back to Africa.

Now this grew out of the very same Manumission Society and other groups like it who initially pushed for abolition.

Some of them began to think that Black people would never achieve equality in the U.S.

Some thought this for racist reasons.

They thought Blacks were simply incapable.

Others thought that whites would never accept Blacks as equals, so they began to argue that Black people should return to West Africa, Liberia being one place.

Of course, Black people did not all come from Liberia.

So, they're not looking for specific places to repatriate them.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, Abraham Lincoln, uh, supported that view for much of his career.

HARRIS: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Is that right?

HARRIS: Yes, he did.

RUBENSTEIN: And he favored, even after the Emancipation Proclamation, he favored sending Blacks back to, was it Latin America or Central American or Africa?

Is that right?

HARRIS: Exactly.

I mean, Lincoln wasn't a slave owner, but for many in the south, also, they thought, "Well, if slavery has to end, we should get rid of these Black people."

RUBENSTEIN: All right.

So 1827, all of a sudden, there are no slaves who were previously slaves in New York.

So, is everything working out well?

Everyone's happy and society goes forward?

The whites and Blacks are working together and living together happily?

HARRIS: So, between 1799 and 1827, I would say you, you're seeing a period of time when whites and Blacks are trying to figure out what does freedom mean.

Um, unfortunately, uh, w, what has become clear by 1827 is that the majority of whites do not see Blacks as equals.

So economically, if before enslaved people had held all kinds of jobs, now that they're free, they are not allowed to work, say, in skilled jobs.

People who, um, hire skilled laborers like carpenters, they don't allow Blacks to be part of that.

In terms of citizenship, um, the 1821 Constitution, s, shortly after this 1817 law is passed, the new Constitution gives universal white manhood suffrage, but says that Black men had to own $250 worth of property in order to vote.

So it's holding over this voting requirement that it has lifted for all white people.

And so, the number of voters in New York City, for example, goes from 300 to 16 at that point.

RUBENSTEIN: For schools to educate young Black children, uh, were there schools set up that would educate them so at least they have some trade?

HARRIS: Absolutely.

One of the amazing things the New York Manumission Society did was set up the African Free Schools.

And these are really schools that, um, catered ultimately, they helped to create the new, free, Black elite.

There are also schools created by Black people.

Some Black churches have Sunday schools, they have night schools.

Um, individual Black people have schools as well.

So there are a lot of schools.

And African-American people during this time, given their class status, tend to be more literate than other groups in terms of their class status.

There's a real hunger to learn.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, in 1832, there's some race riots in New York.

HARRIS: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, what was the cause of the race riots?

HARRIS: So, by the 1830s, a new group of abolitionists have come to the fore.

They're more radical.

They're calling for immediate em, emancipation of slavery in the south and racial equality.

So these are the radical abolitionists.

I don't know, um, if, when you were in school, when I was in school, we were told they were all Quakers.

They're not all Quakers, but many of them are Quakers.

And they're really saying that slavery is a sin.

It should be ended immediately.

But in the north, they're also working hand in hand with Blacks.

So they're very different from the earlier group.

They are, uh, meeting together, they're going to church together.

They're supporting each other in a way no one had ever seen.

This comes to be called "amalgamation," um, which is a, a word for mixing.

And, um, there's a group of, uh, racists who began to say that the abolitionists are interested in racial mixing, that, and they draw these horrible cartoons that are, uh, caricatures of Blacks and whites marrying.

And these riots that you're talking about are the amalgamation riots.

The newspapers, sort of, whip up, uh, the New York community into a frenzy about this push for equality, for racial equality.

And they use this idea of Black and white intermarriage as a way to, uh, spark these riots.

RUBENSTEIN: So the word amalgamation was a euphemism used then for what we now call miscegenation, is that right?

HARRIS: Right.

It's the original word that they used for miscegenation.

Exactly.

RUBENSTEIN: And was there a lot of miscegenation?

Were there Blacks marrying whites and so forth?

HARRIS: There was some.

It was actually not among the abolitionists, though.

It was usually among, more in the working classes and continued, you know, when the Irish came in, that was another moment.

They shared neighborhoods, they did the same kind of work, they went, sometimes went to the same churches.

And so, that was a place.

But the radical abolitionists themselves, there were very few we know of who actually intermarried.

RUBENSTEIN: So, as we get closer to the Civil War, more and more Blacks are escaping as slaves from the south and they're coming to, to, let's say New York.

Were they welcome in New York and were they encouraged to come here and if they came here, what did they have for jobs?

HARRIS: So, for some, um, New York was known as a place where they, they had, uh, there were networks of people who would help them.

And so, you could even think of Frederick Douglass, New York was the place he landed after he ran away from Maryland and he met on the street with I, I believe David Ruggles, who was one of the main people who really worked to create networks to help, uh, escaped slaves.

So, for many of them, they would land here for a little while and then go elsewhere, but there are jobs, um, uh, on the docks and things like that where they could do work for a while.

But by the 1850s, even those jobs are beginning to, um, lessen.

Uh, we have this, uh, large influx of Irish immigrants and whites began to hire them into, uh, domestic labor and as waiters and as all, kinds of other jobs that Blacks used to hold.

And, um, the other thing that's happening during this time is the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act is a federal law that forces, um, northern states to return escaped slaves south.

RUBENSTEIN: So, in a, in the Constitution, there's a fugitive slave clause... HARRIS: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Which says that slaves who were freed had to be returned.

HARRIS: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Why was a law needed to be passed in addition to the Constitution if that was already in the Constitution?

HARRIS: That law didn't really have a mechanism as a lot of things in the Constitution.

They say this should happen, but they don't figure out how it should happen.

And so, what this law did specifically was that it set up these courts.

So if you were walking down the street and you said, "I think that person is a slave who's escaped," or if you were a slave catcher and you, you, you would bring them before a judge.

The judge would get paid $5 if he thought that you were a slave, but only $2 or something if he thought you were free.

So there was an incentive to find you enslaved.

And once you were judged enslaved, then that mechanism of returning you to the south was in place.

RUBENSTEIN: Let's talk about some of the most prominent individuals of that era.

You mentioned Frederick Douglass.

Um, he escaped from Maryland... And came to New York.

Then later, he lived in Rochester for one time.

HARRIS: Exactly.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, what was his influence in the slavery debate?

HARRIS: So, Douglass, you know, such an incredible figure, um, who comes from a relatively humble beginnings, but of, of a, is already literate, and so, he grows to be the, uh, really, the most amazing orator of the anti-slavery movement.

He's also a writer, so his 1845, um, narrative of his life is a huge bestseller and he's part of this generation of, um, escaped enslaved people who really helped to humanize what slavery is and to present to new audiences why slavery is wrong.

And of course, his newspapers, uh, the North Star, Frederick Douglass' paper, he, through those newspapers, he also encourages conversation among African-Americans themselves.

They debate all the political issues of the day.

"Should we go this way?

Should we align with these people?

Should we go back to, quote-unquote, back to Africa."

All of these things are part of what Douglass fosters through his writings and through his speeches.

RUBENSTEIN: One of the leading abolitionists was William Lloyd Garrison.

Who was he and what his role in this whole effort?

HARRIS: So, William Lloyd Garrison is one of my favorite people.

Right after the War of 1812, he goes to Baltimore and works with, um, the publisher of the Genius of Universal Emancipation.

This is before radical abolition and he learns about anti-slavery.

And then there's this big debate, again, about colonization and he knows that most Blacks don't wanna go back to Africa.

They have stood up and said, "We don't believe in the colonization society.

We don't wanna go back."

So he decides to travel up and down the east coast, meet with African-Americans and ask them directly what they think about colonization.

And his first book is Garrison's Th oughts on Colonization, but it's really Black people's thoughts on colonization.

So, he is radicalized by interacting with Black people and he becomes one of the strongest advocates for racial equality.

He'll go to meetings and say, "I speak to you as a colored man."

I mean, he is really trying to take on the burdens of racism and how to end slavery.

So he's one of the most radical individuals.

Um, he publishes The Liberator beginning in 1831 and he is widely excoriated by many people for his radical stances against slavery.

RUBENSTEIN: Charles Sumner, who was he?

HARRIS: Charles Sumner, um, the, the famous caning of Sumner.

This is a man who in Congress is, uh, constantly speaking it, against slavery and of course, he is caned.

Um, uh... RUBENSTEIN: Caned by a member of the House of Representatives.

He just comes over... HARRIS: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Hits him on the head and he's out of commission for, for a year or more.

HARRIS: For, exactly.

Horribly, um, uh, hurt by this, um, but he becomes an important symbol of how violently the south is willing to be in order to uphold slavery.

RUBENSTEIN: And Thaddeus Stevens, he was another, uh, very prominent Senator... HARRIS: That's right.

And he, he's one of the few whites that we know of who was in a relationship with a Black woman at this time, who legitimately they could say that he was, um, having an affair, but again, one of these very radical politicians and, uh, Sumner, Stevens, all of these people.

Now, and the difference between them and Garrison is Garrison thought that the government was too corrupt to participate in.

Like, he refused, he didn't wanna even vote because he said there was no way, the Constitution is a pro-slavery document.

It all has to be torn down.

So that was his radical.

But people like Thaddeus Stevens and Sumner are actually in Congress, trying to push the radical end to slavery.

RUBENSTEIN: So, after, um, the Emancipation Proclamation and then, ultimately, the 13th Amendment, um, how does New York change 'cause New York basically already had outlawed, uh, slavery, so did New York change a lot or are more, uh, freed slaves coming from the south to New York and how did New York change after the Civil War?

HARRIS: Well, immediately after the Emancipation Proclamation in 18, July of 1863 are the infamous draft riots.

And New York's Black population had been de, declining since the 1850s.

But the draft riots in 1863, uh, several days in which, first whites, uh, particularly, uh, working class whites are angered that they are being drafted into the Civil War and that wealthy white men can pay, uh, uh, $300 for someone else to serve for them.

They destroy the draft wheel, the and equipment, but then they turn against Black people and they say, "we don't wanna fight this war to end slavery."

And so, there's a, rioting in the streets.

There is lynching of African-Americans.

And the violence of those days in July sends many Black people out of the city and the population drops to its lowest level numerically, that it's been since the colonial era really.

It's a, a very dramatic drop in population.

So it takes quite a bit of time for African-Americans to begin to come back to the city and that's after the Civil War.

RUBENSTEIN: So, what is the lesson that you've taken away from this book, um, that New York was no different than other northern states or I assume other northern states were more or less the same in the way they treated slaves for that period of time or not?

HARRIS: Yeah, I think that's one lesson.

I mean, again, you know, all the colonies had slavery.

Slavery leaves a legacy of thinking that this group of people, African-Americans, are less than.

That's one lesson, but another lesson, uh, thinking about the people we've just been talking about that I find really powerful from this time is how does change happen?

And what happens when two groups of people across racial lines, across class lines, possibly, come together to create change?

And when we think about the radical abolitionists, we think about Garrison and Douglass and Thaddeus Stevens and Sumner and all these people and many more Blacks and whites who are arguing and debating what is the best way to attack this huge problem.

We see them persist even when they don't like each other because they continue to work together, they argue, they fight, and, and when slavery ends, they also all celebrate together.

They celebrate that even with all the difficulties they had.

And I, I think there's something about that persistence, um, about their recognition that they're imperfect, but they still have to struggle together to make that change, and I think is really important.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, it's very interesting story, a very interesting book.

I wanna thank you very much for being in conversation with us at the New York Historical Society.

HARRIS: Thank you so much.

RUBENSTEIN: Thank you.

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