(bright music) - Welcome back to "Family Health Matters."

I'm Shelley Irwin.

With me today, Reverend Ricardo Tavarez, Pastor of En Vivo Church and Executive Director of New City Neighbors, Carlos Kulas-Dominguez, owner of Experiences Granted, Jazz McKinney, Executive Director of the Grand Rapids Pride Center.

Important conversation we are to have.

Thank you for being here.

Tell us your angle and more about the Center, Jazz.

- Yeah, the Grand Rapids Pride Center, we just reached our 36th year and we helped put on our local Grand Rapids Pride Festival, so we're super excited about that.

That'll be coming up this next Saturday, June 22nd, 12 o'clock, right downtown Calder Plaza.

But other than the festival, we are a support center, a community center, a community hub.

We do a lot of resource based, you know, making sure our LGBTQ+ community can feel safe and supported and affirmed and whatever that means.

So whether that's in healthcare, whether that's in social, we do a lot of social groups, a lot of education, a lot of training.

We have our health equity program that does a lot of, with like mental health and essential needs.

So basic needs closet, you know, affirming clothing closet, food pantry, all sorts of things.

Yeah.

And we just, you know, putting on different events in our community to make sure, you know, our community is supported and safe and a lot of advocacy as well.

You know, election year is coming up, so doing some work with that.

But yeah, doing a lot for our community.

- Right.

Thanks for your leadership.

Ricardo, talk about the hats you wear.

- Yes, thank you, Shelly.

So I am the Executive Director of New City Neighbors.

That's one of my main hats.

And it's a nonprofit organization that's mission is empowering youth to reach their full potential.

And how that ties into this is that we take a very serious and affirming posture toward the queer community, and we've taken some flack for that.

But we continue doing our work through our urban farming and through our farm to table cafe, which is a way to create jobs for teens while also giving them leadership opportunities and helping them become a part of the integrated community and sharing their skills and resources and becoming community advocates.

Pastor of En Vivo Church, my second hat, it's a queer-led, queer-affirming church here in Grand Rapids in the Crescent neighborhood.

Most of our congregation identifies as LGBTQ.

And we are continuing to spread out in terms of the programming and what we offer in the community.

Definitely more than just a Sunday experience.

We're currently developing a parent support group for parents of LGBTQ+ youth, as well as we have a festival in development for the neighborhood related to Pride.

We also have a clothing resource for those who are seeking a safe way to get gender affirming clothes.

So different things that we're working on as a faith-based community with an LGBTQ+ lens.

- Hmm, good.

Thank you for you.

Carlos, talk about you.

- Thanks, Shelly.

So, with Experiences Granted, and what that has meant for me is I've been able to be in some really interesting spaces with community, and specifically it's allowed for me to engage with Out Pro, which is part of the Grand Rapids Chamber.

And we are one of their affinity groups that is really serving and uplifting voices for the queer community and what that means in terms of making impact for business and how we can make a much more affirming and welcoming West Michigan.

And we want talent and we want retention to be in West Michigan from our community.

But it also has allowed for me to really engage with the community in ways to get a sense of the heartbeat of what our queer community is really wanting and needing.

And specifically in the role with the Chamber that I've been with.

Within my business, I've been actively out in the community meeting amazing humans like Jazz and Ricardo and so many others to find out what more can we be doing, what are the needs for our queer community, but more importantly, how are we gonna make West Michigan a much more welcoming, inclusive space?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And I have a lived experience since 1997, so I've been in this community with lots of firsts.

Like we had the first National Coming Out Day at Grand Valley back when I was there.

The first group at Grand Valley back when I was there.

But even more recently, you know, just the first of in showing up.

And I think when do we have to have it be the last time that we're making those changes?

And I've been having those conversations in such amazing community spaces, whether it's New City Neighbors or Basalt, which is a local queer-owned business and many, many others.

- Let's stay on this topic, though, Jazz.

How are we doing with moving the needle to the positive?

- Slowly but surely.

(Jazz laughs) You know, I've also been in the community for a while and you know, we are leaps and bounds where we were when I first moved to Grand Rapids, but yet we still have a while to go.

You know, it definitely is something that as we grow and as we learn, you know, we are also learning things that maybe folks didn't feel comfortable saying maybe 10 years ago.

So it's one of those things where like, we're definitely making change, you know, we're making great partnerships kind of as Carlos mentioned, you know, but we want to make sure too that all folks of color are, you know, all LGBT folks, all disabled LGBT folks, all, you know, like all of the kind of intersecting identities are also feeling included and impacted.

And that's where we're still trying to move that needle forward as well.

And, you know, make sure everyone can feel included in our community.

And, you know, it's a day by day thing.

- Mm-hm.

- It really is.

- Ricardo, talk a little bit about challenges within the faith community.

- Yeah, there are many.

(everyone laughs) So our nonprofit for example, is a faith-based nonprofit.

And for many folks in the community, they just don't seem to understand how that works.

That we can be an affirming space and still be a part of this ecumenical faith community.

So Shelley, you know, we've had experiences where a donor will call us someone that's been a part of our organization for, you know, two or three years or longer.

And they'll say, "Our values no longer align and we can't seem to want to support what you're doing anymore."

And more often than not, it's related to being welcoming to the queer community.

And there's, it's frustrating, to be honest.

We grow about 60,000 pounds of produce in our organization.

We serve up to 14 local food pantries or food resource centers depending on how they're branding themselves, - [Jazz] Including ours.

(everyone laughs) - We, you know, we're offering this great resource while providing jobs for teens.

And because we hire folks who identify as openly LGBTQ, people withdraw their support even though we're doing these wonderful things.

And so there is this significant hurdle, I think, in for people to get past the idea or what is presented out in the media of what it, the dangers quote unquote of the LGBTQ community and not seeing us as just regular people that wanna do good work and serve our community.

We were fortunate to be able to get a grant this past year to specifically do some programming and some education around LGBTQ+ identities.

We took our youth to the Pride Center so they could learn about that as a resource and we took them to other spaces so that they could see and de-stigmatize what it means to be someone that's out in the community doing this kind of work.

And for our church specifically, there are churches, there are denominations that are moving toward becoming queer-affirming, which I definitely celebrate, but there's still a lot of hurt and pain there.

And it affects, you know, the mental health of our community.

It affects a sense of belonging, a sense of self-worth.

Most of the community that is En Vivo, those who identify as openly queer, were pushed out of their faith-based spaces, were told that they're not welcome, were told that they can't participate even if they were following all of the rules.

And for faith-based spaces that traditionally means practicing celibacy and whatever that entails, still being pushed out.

And so I'm grateful for the community that we do have at En Vivo that it creates a sense of belonging and welcome and embracing everyone so that wherever you're coming from, you feel a sense of value and able to participate in some part of the community without that stigma.

- Carlos, expand on that and then maybe your niche of travel and any challenges the community may have.

- Sure.

You know, I think I'd like to expand on it more coming from a community and a business focus.

In my engagements, you know, I know too, just in the past two weeks, we've two larger organizations lost some amazing talent from that identify within our LGBTQI community because at their core culture, they're not supporting as Ricardo referred to an inclusive environment at the core.

And that's kind of tragic.

That's one of those things that we need to, you know, repair.

'Cause we're not having that retention in that community.

And so one of my platforms is how do we leverage the platforms that exist in West Michigan to elevate some of these things that are happening?

Because it's more than just putting up a Pride flag for the month or changing your banner for the month.

It's more, you know, putting your money where your dollars, I mean putting your dollars where your mouth is.

- Or that.

- Or the vice versa.

(everyone laughs) But more so what I really wanna say, Shelley, is it really is about connecting hearts.

I think it's when we're connecting hearts and connecting people, then it's not, I'm not seeing you as a queer person, but you're another human doing amazing things.

But for me, it's been in these spaces and I wasn't aware, I was pretty naive for a season, Shelley, until I started getting out in the community to get a better sense of the heartbeat of what is our queer community facing right now and what are some of those changes that we need to make on a professional level?

Because we have such a large influential organizations that are doing great things and we wanna celebrate them, but are we really lifting the voices?

Are you really tapping to those communities or is it performative and transactional?

And that's what I've been hearing a lot from our community.

And then, can you repeat the travel piece?

- Yeah.

The travel.

Are there concerns of safety in traveling to some places?

- Absolutely.

I'm learning a lot about that and not just, you know, I mean people are concerned about coming to West Michigan sometimes 'cause you hear that we're still pretty conservative.

- I was gonna say there, we could ask that same question about- - Yeah, versus- - Outside of West Michigan.

Absolutely.

You know, some countries still have, if that's what you're asking, some countries still have laws that will put you in prison.

And yet, a lot of our community will travel to those places and you're supporting that economy, which is supporting something that is pretty, you know, harmful for the queer community.

It's an area that I'm just getting my toes- - Yes.

- Stepped into though.

- State of mental health then, in the queer community.

What are you seeing with the Center?

Do you get the requests that I need to talk?

- Yeah, our therapy assistance program specifically where we connect folks to LGBTQ affirming therapists and also help to help financially because we know financials are a big resource, a big barrier to folks.

It's grown tremendously, especially in the last couple of years.

You know, we started off maybe only helping 25 folks when we created it in 2020.

And now already in 2024, we've served about 160 folks.

- That's amazing.

- And we're halfway through.

- Wow.

- So, you know it, mental health is such a nuanced thing and it's, you know, it's, we're learning too that we have to treat the whole person.

So it's not enough to just say like, "Oh, just go to therapy."

We know that, you know, it is very hard for someone to be well mentally if they're not well spiritually or if they're not well in their professional life.

And so, you know, it's definitely something that we all need to continue to work on.

And you know, I feel like as there's a lot of things going on in our community and even if it's not happening specifically here in West Michigan, the impact that even just the over 600 anti-trans bills that has been introduced across the country, that still impacts people mental health because they don't know if that's gonna happen here.

They don't know if they can, as Carlos was talking about, visit other places or go visit family, you know.

And then something we're not thinking about is because Michigan, we're not officially a sanctuary state, but we do have relatively affirming care.

And so our system though is not made to handle all of these other folks coming from other states that aren't able get to get affirming care.

And so wait times, like we have folks reaching out, trying to get therapy and there's six month weight long, wait time lists and, you know, in six months a lot can happen.

You know, and so we're really trying to figure out too, how do we address not only just long-term mental health, but how do we address more urgent mental health as well?

Especially when a lot of our mental health facilities, particularly our bigger mental health facilities, are Christian based, and there's that, and there's not a whole lot of trust in the system.

And so we know historically that queer folks wait 'til the last minute to try to address something because they don't feel comfortable going to these entities that are either saying they're doing the work and not, or just blatantly not doing the work and not being supportive.

- Ricardo, maybe expand on that and then let's dig into the teen.

- Sure.

You know, I wanna respond in, and answering that question to something that Carlos said about the flags and, you know, we see them put up on June and in Pride Month, and then sometimes there's no action behind that.

But then there's places that even hesitate to put up the flag because they think they're gonna lose support or they're gonna lose their patrons.

- And this could be even an ally.

- Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

And so, and I'm tying that to the question you're asking me because in the, in faith-based place, not spaces that say they want to be welcoming or want to be affirming, there's even a hesitation to put up even a flag sticker that says, "You are welcome here."

And that ties so much into the mental health aspect, the sense of safety, because I know individuals and I myself have taken this posture at times, or if I don't see the flag, I'm not coming in.

- Mm-hm.

- Because I at least know that there's an attempt there to say that you're trying, right?

And that's, it's discouraging because that's really the bare minimum right?

To say and signal that you're welcoming, that you're trying, right?

And so it really affects the mental health and the ability to thrive for so many people that are just looking for just a sense, a sign that I am safe here, that I'm welcome here, that I can at least come into this space and be who I am without being worried about being excluded, right?

And so for the faith-based community, I, you know, I issue that challenge.

You have to at least have that somewhere if you're saying you're, you wanna be welcoming.

- Mm-hm.

- And again, that's just the bare minimum, Shelley.

- Mm-hm.

- It's so bare minimum.

So many people are desiring to move beyond that and say like, okay, now that you're saying you're welcoming, let's have a conversation about what that takes.

Like what are some of the issues that we need to address here?

What are some of the larger conversations?

But we can't even do that if we don't have the bare minimum, the standard.

- The standard, the walk into the door.

Carlos, what do you add to that in what you've experienced or?

- I think it would be two things.

I wanted to build off of what Jazz was saying with mental health, but just even with like medical care, I mean, I know that on a personal level, I think about where I'm going and am I gonna have to answer uncomfortable questions that make you feel othered that you wouldn't ask other individuals that are in receiving care from a provider.

So, and quite transparently, Shelley, like we don't have somebody that we're confident going for our medical stuff right now in our household.

- I got you.

- Thank you, Jazz.

Thank you.

So that would be one big space.

And, I think because and you're familiar, I'm in the space of some like politics and legal spaces, but that historically is not a super safe space for a lot of our queer community be, and that needs to have a big shift because those services and resources are so helpful.

I mean, something as basic as getting your name changed, you know, it's not a safe space to get your name changed for somebody within the queer community, and it's expensive.

So that's a whole 'nother resource and access issue.

But I'll leave it at there for the moment though.

(everyone laughs) - So how do we make these changes?

Where do we go from here?

I mean, that's obviously what the challenge is.

And Jazz, obviously you have a platform with the whole Center and to be able to make the connections, yes?

- I think the biggest thing is education and willingness to have a conversation.

You know, there are so many people that I encounter, especially when we're doing trainings that are just afraid to ask.

And you know, they really do want to learn.

They really do wanna figure out what can I do?

But they're afraid to ask.

They're afraid of, you know, censure or you know, like being called out or being wrong, you know, because they don't wanna hurt folks, but they need to know.

So I think being willing to have the conversation and then the biggest piece after that conversation is follow through.

- Yes.

- You know, there are a lot of places, some of these places that we've kind of alluded to that have had the conversations and then nothing else.

- Exactly.

- And so we need to not only have the conversation and the education, but we also need to have that follow through and willing to do hard things.

- Mm-hm.

- You know, when you have a situation where maybe you're, I don't know, just exaggerating, but a company that's been around for a hundred years, change is not gonna happen tomorrow, right?

Like, we have to be willing to continue that conversation as we go.

We have to be willing to say like, "Okay, we tried this thing.

What was that response?

We tried another thing.

What was that response?

How can we tailor it to make sure that we're still living within our mission?"

You know, a lot of people's missions, including a lot of these companies, their mission is to protect people, don't harm people, do no harm, all of these things.

And yet they're not living out those missions.

And so that's what it, really what it comes down to, you know, is how can we make it so that your company not only learns about the thing, but then does the thing, but still do it within your mission?

Because that's where, you know, a lot of places are like, "Oh, well maybe this doesn't, no."

Like making sure people are safe and affirmed and loved and, you know, thriving should be part of everybody's mission.

- [Ricardo] Yes, yes, yes.

- Back, I'm gonna go back to the teen, how about the role of a National Coming Out Day, a Pride Month, and making that conversation easier for the teen to talk to his parents for that first time?

- Yeah.

I don't think that conversation ever gets easy.

(everyone laughs) - No.

- No.

- You know, there's a lot that we can be doing, I think in terms of being open and creating a network of support.

You know, we could talk about resources and financing and all that, but presence matters, right?

And that's why we need to have something like a Pride Month.

That's why we need to have things like a Pride Festival in which some people still push back against and don't seem to understand where there's so much stigma and, you know, a desire to push people into spaces of hiding and shame.

And that all gets internalized when someone can't talk about it.

When a teenager can't honestly come forward and say, "You know, I'm having these emotions or these feelings and I don't know what they mean, but I would like some help."

Right?

I wish I had that as a teenager, right?

I was shamed and taught fear rather than, you know, dialogue.

And I think that's what we need is just a sense of presence and openness and dialogue.

And so we have to keep pushing the needle with things like Pride Festivals and, you know, Transgender Day of Visibility and Remembrance and these moments that highlight that there's so many of us.

- Mm-hm.

- Right?

And we're just, we just want to be a part of the community, right?

We're not here to necessarily cause a ruckus.

I mean, I was gonna say sometimes it might be called for.

Sometimes it might be called for, and you know, I'm not afraid to jump in there, but.

But we want our teens to be able to just be who they are and be honest.

So much of our culture says we value honesty and being different.

And yet in this piece we're, we say no to.

- Except that.

Yeah.

- Right?

- And I'm allowed to add to that.

- You are.

We've got about five minutes left.

- You know, I wanted to add then, I think it's really about engaging our young people too and asking them to be at the table, I think.

- Absolutely.

- And me having to reset myself.

We have access, we have opportunity, but really creating that platform and that stage to hear those voices because they're, our young people, they're unapologetic.

They are not as tolerant of not being able to be authentic in the spaces that they show up and they're ready to move on to a place where they can be, thrive.

That's, you know, we talk about wanting to attract talent here in West Michigan and speaking again back to the business community, that's where we need to put our money, where our mouth is and leveraging those platforms and like you're doing for us today, Shelley, and something that's been really powerful to me in that teen space is representation is so important and we need more people from the LGBTQI community in spaces of leadership.

- Yeah.

- So that our youth know where to go.

And I think that's so critical and that's what I have gained over the last year and a half of re-engaging the community.

- I was just gonna add, we also need more positive real life representation.

- Yes.

- Yeah.

- Because sometimes the representation that we see, especially if we're talking movies or things like that, it's the stereotypical negative things- - Yeah, absolutely.

- That we see, which is not, you know, like sure stereotypes are based in some version of truth, but like, it's not all of who we are.

- And so we need more positive representation, more, or even not even just positive, but just more real life representation and seeing these folks and also uplifting these folks as well because the representation is there.

We just are not uplifting it as much as we need to.

You know, maybe because of- - Yeah.

- Like, oh, you're a really good mentor.

Ooh, but you're queer.

Well, no, I'm, if I'm a really good mentor, I'm a really good mentor, my queerness is not defining that.

Or maybe it's enhancing that.

- A hundred percent.

- You know, especially for someone like us, like we use our queer identities to help enhance the fact that we're leaders and mentors and you know, all of those things.

So it's not just like representation, it's also like positive real life representation - That I need some resources from you.

Where do we continue the conversation with you, Jazz?

- Yeah.

Come check us out.

We're located right in the heart of East Town and we're open Monday through Friday.

Also, our website is a good resource, so GRpride.org, you can find out more about us, all the resources we have, all the things that we do, more about the festival and any other event that we put on, as well as some of our community partners that we work with.

They're kind of throughout the space as well and you know how we work with them, so.

- Great.

Ricardo, quick resource for you.

- Yeah, absolutely.

So NewCityNeighbors.org is where you can find out about our nonprofit.

And I'll just slide in real quick that when we took an affirming posture, we lost 20% of our donor base overnight.

And so we definitely need people that are going to connect with funds, dollars, but also sharing the good work of what we're doing, right?

Telling your friends and getting other people involved.

Our church is EnVivoChurch.org and you can find out about our worship services there and the resources that we have to offer.

- Right.

Carlos?

We'll give you a minute to wind things down.

- Sure.

- That's the cast.

- Yeah.

That's a lot of time for you.

- You know, I think it's about, for me, you can find me just by being out in the community and engaging and I think that's really it, is showing up in spaces that you're uncomfortable and being willing to lead from the heart and make those connections.

Because I do believe that the change is gonna happen as we all kind of stand together and not just move our agenda forward, but move anybody who's being marginalized forward.

And I think that's just the power of community and not everything needs to be performative and transactional, Shelley.

- Hmm, good.

Is there a website to find out more about?

- You can find me Carlos Kulas-Dominguez on Facebook.

It's the best way.

(everyone laughs) Thank you for asking.

- What about Out Pro and Out Pro?

- And Out Pro is through the Chamber, so thank you for reminding me.

- Thank you for this important conversation.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And thank you for joining us on "Family Health Matters."

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