HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE BOOKMARK.

I'M CHRISTINE BROWN YOUR HOST TODAY MY GUEST IS LAUREN STEFFEY CO-AUTHOR OF THE LAST TRIAL OF T BOONE PICKENS.

LAUREN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

WELCOME BACK.

YES AND I ALWAYS LOVE WHEN YOU COME BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD READ AND I KNOW IT'S GONNA BE A FUN JOB.

LET'S START.

DRAMATIC TITLE CAN YOU INTRODUCE THE BOOK AND TELL US WHAT'S ABOUT.

YES THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY ABOUT A MAJOR CIVIL TRIAL THE BOONE PICKENS WAS INVOLVED IN IN WEST TEXAS IN 2016 AND IT INVOLVED A OIL AND GAS DISPUTE.

AND THE THING THAT STRUCK THE FIRST THING IT WAS VERY INTERESTING IS THAT OVER THIS LONG STORIED CAREER THAT BOONE PICKENS HAD AND ALL THE DIFFERENT LEGAL ISSUES HE'D BEEN INVOLVED IN FROM CORPORATE TAKEOVERS AND THINGS LIKE HE'D NEVER ACTUALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN IN MAJOR TRIAL LIKE THIS.

AND SO YOU KNOW KIND OF THE JUMPING OFF POINT FOR THE STORY IS YOU KNOW THIS THIS GUY'S 88 YEARS OLD.

HE'S SITTING IN COURT EVERY DAY HE'S JUST VERY FOCUSED ON THIS BECAUSE IT TURNED OUT NOBODY THOUGHT IT WHEN IT WHEN IT STARTED?

BUT THIS WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST OIL DEALS HE WAS EVER INVOLVED IN?

SO FOR THOSE WHO MAY NOT HAVE BEEN AROUND IN THE 80S OR 90S OR PAYING ATTENTION TO THE NEWS YOU TELL US WHO T. BOONE PICKENS.

YES A T BOONE PICKENS WAS SORT OF A LEGENDARY FIGURE IN THE OIL INDUSTRY.

HE WAS KIND OF AN OLD CLASSIC YOU KNOW WILDCAT BUILT FROM NOTHING.

BUT IN THE IN THE 70S HE BEGAN NOTICING THAT YOU KNOW IT TOOK A LOT OF CAPITAL TO DRILL NEW WELLS AND A LOT OF TIMES AS WELLSTON PRODUCE OIL AND HE STARTED LOOKING AROUND FOR A MORE EFFICIENT WAY TO BUILD HIS THE SIZE OF HIS COMPANY TO BUILD HIS OIL RESERVES.

AND HE REALIZED THAT SOME OF THE LARGE PUBLICLY TRADED OIL COMPANIES HAD A LOT OF RESERVES SITTING ON THEIR BOOKS THAT WEREN'T BEING REFLECTED IN THEIR STOCK PRICE.

AND SO HE ACTUALLY BEGAN.

HE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE TO EVER DO A HOSTILE TAKEOVER ATTEMPT OF A MAJOR OIL COMPANY WHERE HE BASICALLY A SMALL COMPANY TRIED TO BUY A GREAT BIG COMPANY AND THE BIGGEST WAS ULTIMATELY GULF OIL WHICH IS NOW PART OF CHEVRON BECAUSE OF THE DEAL.

SO GULF DIDN'T WANT TO BE TAKEN OVER BY BOONE AND IT WOUND UP MERGING WITH LETS NOW CHEVRON.

SO HE KIND OF STARTED THAT WHOLE CORPORATE RAIDER IDEA.

HE WAS HE WAS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL CORPORATE RAIDERS AND THERE WERE A LOT OF OTHERS WHO CAME AFTER HIM BUT IT WAS REALLY KIND OF A WORLD OF BUSINESS IT SORT OF DEFINED THE 1980S AND A LOT OF WAYS.

IF YOU'VE SEEN THE MOVIE WALL STREET YOU KNOW THERE WAS ALWAYS SOME RUMORS THAT MICHAEL DOUGLAS'S CHARACTER WAS BASED IN PART ON BOONE PICKENS.

THERE'S ALSO RUMORS THAT HE WAS BASED ON A CHARACTER FROM DALLAS TO DALLAS WITH YELL JACOB ARMY HE WAS A HE'S A LARGER THAN LIFE KIND OF FIGURE I GUESS.

ABSOLUTELY IS WHAT THE BUT AS YOU SAID HE DID.

HE BUILT THIS HIMSELF.

HE STARTED FROM ALMOST NOTHING.

HE WAS BORN IN A SMALL TOWN IN OKLAHOMA AND THEN BUILT HIS EMPIRE.

AND I HAVE TO ASK YOU BECAUSE IT WAS A VERY FUNNY PART THE BOOK ABOUT HOW HE CAME TO TEXAS AM FOR AND THEN SO HE BY THE TIME HE GOT THE KYLE OR WAS HEADED TO COLLEGE HE WAS LIVING IN AMARILLO AND HE WAS AN OK BASKETBALL PLAYER WOULDN'T A GREAT BASKETBALL PLAYER.

BUT HE PLAYED BASKETBALL AND HE MANAGED TO GET A SCHOLARSHIP AND AM.

AND AT THE END OF HIS FRESHMAN YEAR THEY DO IT.

AND SO HE COULDN'T AFFORD TO STAY AND HE WOUND UP TRANSFERRING WHAT WAS AN OKLAHOMA AND NOW OKLAHOMA STATE?

AND EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T MAKE THE TEAM THERE THEY CONTINUED TO PAY A SCHOLARSHIP FOR THE REST OF THE TIME THAT HE WAS IN SCHOOL.

AND YET THE JOKE IS THAT THAT AM SAVED I THINK TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS A SEMESTER OR SOMETHING ON THE SCHOLARSHIP.

BOONE LATER WENT ON TO GIVE ABOUT SIX HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS TO OKLAHOMA STATE SO PROBABLY NOT THE BEST INVESTMENT DECISION.

AIN'T NEVER THE FUTURE.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED HE BEAT HE BECAME A BILLIONAIRE BUT IT ALSO HAPPENED LATER.

HE DIDN'T MAKE ALL THE BILLIONS AT THE FRONT END OF HIS CAREER.

THAT'S SOMETHING A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS THAT YOU KNOW THEY THINK THAT THE CORPORATE RAIDER DAYS YOU KNOW THAT WAS KIND OF THE PINNACLE OF HIS FAME AND HE CERTAINLY MADE A LOT OF MONEY ON THOSE DEALS BUT HE DID NOT MAKE IT HIS REAL FORTUNE UNTIL MUCH LATER IN LIFE UNTIL HE WAS IN HIS 70S WHEN HE HE HE BASICALLY LOST THE COMPANY THAT HE HAD FOUNDED AND STARTED OVER WITH A HEDGE FUND.

AND IT WAS REALLY THE INVESTING ACTIVITIES HE DID IN THE EARLY 2000S THAT MADE HIM A BILLIONAIRE.

WHY IS TITLE PROMISES THIS IS THE LAST LEGAL BATTLE.

IT'S ALSO KIND OF THE FIRST ONE.

LIKE YOU SAID AND THE BIGGEST ONE TOO.

SO IT'S GOT A LOT OF SUPERLATIVES THERE.

ABSOLUTELY YEAH.

YOU KNOW AND OBVIOUSLY HE PASSED AWAY IN SEPTEMBER.

AND SO YOU KNOW WE CAN SAY IT WAS THE LAST.

I MEAN YOU KNOW IT REALLY WAS SOMETHING THAT HE HE FOUGHT RIGHT UP UNTIL THE END.

AND IN FACT WE TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT HOW HE REALLY WANTED TO APPEAL THE RULING IN THE CASE AND YOU KNOW EVERYBODY KIND OF KNEW THAT TAKES A LONG TIME AND HE PROBABLY WOULDN'T WOULDN'T LIVE TO SEE THE OUTCOME AND SO ULTIMATELY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

BUT I WANT TO GIVE THE ENDING.

TELL US ABOUT YOUR CO-AUTHOR ON THIS BOOK.

YEAH SO CRYSTAL WAS HIS ATTORNEY IN THE CASE AND SHE AND I ACTUALLY MET A FEW YEARS AGO.

I WAS DOING A STORY FOR TEXAS MONTHLY ON BEAT AND HIS RANCH IN WEST TEXAS HE HAS A 100 SQUARE MILE RANCH OUT IN THE PANHANDLE.

AND SO I WAS OUT THERE DOING THAT.

SHE WAS THERE AT THE SAME TIME AND WE KIND OF STARTED TALKING.

YOU KNOW SHE SAID SHE WAS INTERESTED IN DOING A BOOK AND WE TALKED ABOUT HOW THAT MIGHT WORK.

AND YOU KNOW AS A WRITER A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO AND SAY THEY WANT TO DO A BOOK.

AND MY MY ANSWER IS ALWAYS.

OK.

WELL YOU KNOW SEND ME SOME STUFF.

WE'LL SEE HOW IT GOES.

AND VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO.

BUT SHE DID AND WHAT SHE SENT WAS REALLY GOOD AND I STARTED REALIZING WE HAD A GOOD STORY AND WHAT INTRIGUED ME ABOUT IT WAS REALLY TELLING THE STORY FROM HER POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THIS CASE FOUR YEARS AGO NOW IT'S AN INTERESTING CASE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO READ A WHOLE BOOK ON IT RIGHT.

IF I WERE TO WRITE IT AS A JOURNALIST AND YOU KNOW SORT OF GIVE THE TEN THOUSAND FOOT VIEW YOU KNOW IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE SOMETHING THAT'S BOOK WORTHY IF YOU WILL.

BUT BY TELLING IT THROUGH HER PERSPECTIVE WE GET WE GET INTO HER STORY AND WE GET TO SEE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HER AND BOONE WHICH WAS REALLY KIND OF INTERESTING AND IN FACT I SORT OF REALIZED THAT IT REMINDED ME OF TRUE GRIT.

CHARLES PORTIS JUST DIED AND SO I WAS THINKING A LOT ABOUT THIS LIKE IT'S IT'S KIND OF A TRUE GRIT SORT OF THING YOU KNOW SHE'S ABOUT 30 YEARS YOUNGER THAN HE IS A VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND YOU KNOW THEY BECAME VERY GOOD FRIENDS AND YET THERE WAS A LOT OF CONFLICT THERE TOO AS YOU WOULD EXPECT IN A CASE LIKE THIS AND SO I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT TELLING THE STORY FROM HER PERSPECTIVE IS THERE AREN'T A LOT OF WOMEN TRIAL LAWYERS IN THE OIL AND GAS PART OF THE LAW.

AND SO SHE'S REALLY KIND OF UNIQUE IN THAT FROM THAT STANDPOINT AND THE OTHER THING IS THAT IT'S VERY UNUSUAL FOR A SOLO PRACTITIONER TO TAKE ON A CASE OF THIS SIZE.

AND SO AGAIN HER PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE ON ALL OF THIS I THINK WAS REALLY HELPFUL.

YEAH I THINK IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING LAYER TO IT BECAUSE IT'S SINCE IT'S HER STORY YOU DO TELL A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HER BACKGROUND AND HER DIFFICULTY AND BECOMING A LAWYER IN AN ESPECIALLY IN LIKE OIL AND CONTRACT LAW WHICH SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MALE DOMINATED FIELD ABSOLUTE AND YOU KNOW BUT SHE DOESN'T SHE JUST DOESN'T DWELL ON HER ON HER HANDICAPS THAT ONLY MEN CALL THEM THAT.

BUT YOU KNOW SHE JUST PUSHES THROUGH.

SHE IS A FIGHTER AND SHE'S TOUGH.

AND I FOUND MYSELF REALLY LOVING TO HEAR HER VOICE AND WHAT SHE THOUGHT ABOUT HER EXPERIENCES AND REALLY KIND OF JUMPED OFF OF THE PAGE JUMPED OFF THE PAGE AT ME WHEN SHE SENT ME YOU KNOW KIND OF THE FIRST DRAFT OF WHAT SHE HAD PUT TOGETHER.

AND THE OTHER INTERESTING THING AGAIN BY TELLING IT FROM HER PERSPECTIVE THERE WERE MOMENTS IN THE TRIAL WHERE YOU KNOW TRIALS CAN BE KIND OF BORING AND THIS WAS A BUSINESS TRIAL IS VERY TECHNICAL AND THERE WERE THERE WERE PARTS WHERE WE SORT OF HAD TO LET THE OTHER SIDE MAKE ARGUMENTS SO THAT YOU COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE PUSHING BACK AGAINST AND ESPECIALLY IN THE CLOSING ARGUMENTS WHEN THE FIRST VERSION SHE'S LIKE YOU KNOW THIS ALL THE STUFF THE DEFENSE SAYS IT REALLY KIND OF DRAGS IN HERE LIKE WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING AND I KEPT THINKING ABOUT IT AND THINKING ABOUT IT AND I REALIZED I WENT BACK TO KRISTA AND I SAID WHAT WERE YOU THINKING AT EACH POINT WHEN THEY WHEN THEY SAID THIS OR WHEN THEY SAID THAT AND IT REALLY KIND BROUGHT HER BACK INTO THAT PART OF THE NARRATIVE AND LIVENED IT UP AND SO AGAIN THAT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN DO WHEN YOU'RE TELLING A STORY FROM A FIRST PERSON ACCOUNT AS OPPOSED TO A THIRD PERSON LIKE YOU SAY TRIALS AREN'T ALWAYS AS EXCITING AS THEY SEEM ON TELEVISION BECAUSE THEY DON'T LAST AN HOUR THEY LAST MULTIPLE DAYS AND WEEKS SOMETIMES SO I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT HER HEARING HER PERSPECTIVE AND KIND OF HER THOUGHTS AND IN REAL TIME AS IT'S HAPPENING ADDS A LAYER OF INTEREST TO THE WHOLE STORY AND MAKES IT MAKE YOU WANT TO READ A BOOK ABOUT A TRIAL.

YOU KNOW IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE AS WE STARTED WORKING THROUGH IT I BECAME MORE AND MORE CONVINCED THAT YOU KNOW SHE AND BOONE NEEDED TO HAVE A PRESENCE IN VIRTUALLY EVERY SCENE AND YOU KNOW EVERY EVERY MOMENT OF THE BOOK AND AND SO SOMETIMES I WOULD SEND NOTES BACK TO HER NEEDS MORE CRYSTAL MORE KNOW.

BUT BUT I TRYING TO DRAW THAT DYNAMIC OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM WAS REALLY A KEY PART OF THE BOOK.

AND IT ENRICHES IT BECAUSE LIKE YOU SAID THERE THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT.

THEY HAVE DIAMETRICALLY DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE POLITICS AND BUT BUT THERE IS STILL AN APPRECIATION FOR WHAT EACH OTHER CAN DO AND WHAT THEY CAN BRING TO THE TABLE WHICH IS NICE TO SEE PEOPLE WORKING TOGETHER EVEN THOUGH THEY DISAGREE ABOUT THINGS ESPECIALLY IN THIS DAY.

ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE CHAPTERS ACTUALLY WAS THE ONE WE'RE SO 2016 PRESIDENTIAL HAPPENED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRIAL ACTUALLY BEFORE THE MOST IMPORTANT DAY OF TRIAL FOR FOR HER AND SHE'S YOU KNOW VERY MUCH DEMOCRAT AND MAROON OF COURSE IS A VERY STAUNCH REPUBLICAN AND AND SO YOU KNOW SHE IS JUST YOU KNOW IN DISBELIEF OVER THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION SHE CAN'T BELIEVE IT BUT WHAT SHE'S REALLY DREADING IS GOING DOWN TO BREAKFAST AND HAVING TO SEE BOONE AND IT'S ALL SHE'S THINKING ABOUT EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW THAT SHE REALLY NEEDS TO BE FOCUSING ON WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN COURT THAT THAT AND I JUST LOVE THAT CHAPTER AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT THAT WE KIND OF TALKED ABOUT SORT OF HAD TO DRAW.

YOU KNOW SHE'S NOT USED TO AS LAWYERS SHE'S NOT USED TO PUTTING HER PERSONAL FEELINGS INTO THINGS AND SO I KEPT TELLING HER YOU KNOW LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE YOU NEED IT.

YOU NEED TO SHOW THE READER WHAT YOU'RE THINKING.

AND IT WOUND UP WORKING REALLY REALLY WELL.

SO I THINK IT'S IT'S AN INTERESTING CHAPTER.

SO AS FAR AS RESEARCH FOR THIS I'M GUESSING A LOT OF IT WAS KIND OF EASY BECAUSE THERE'S COURT RECORDS AND DOCUMENTS WHERE YOU CAN GET VERBATIM QUOTES BUT THERE ALSO MAY BE DIFFICULTIES IN MAKING THAT INTERESTING.

WELL I MEAN IT WAS EASY IN THE SENSE THAT THERE WAS A COURT RECORD IT WAS DIFFICULT IN THE SENSE THAT THERE'S YOU KNOW THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PAGES THAT YOU HAD TO GO THROUGH AND WE DID YOU KNOW WE WERE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN A LOT OF THE BOOK DOES DRAW VERY DIRECTLY FROM THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPTS.

SO IT WAS IT WAS NOT EASY IN THE SENSE THAT THERE WERE THINGS THAT HAPPENED THAT SHE REMEMBERED HAPPENING AND THEN WE'D HAVE TO TRY TO FIND THEM IN AND IN SOME CASES HER SISTER HAD HAD WORKED AS A PARALEGAL FOR ON THE CASE AND SO SOMETIMES WE'D HAVE TO CALL KATHY AND GET HER TO HELP US REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT KIND THING.

IT WOULD HELP HER REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT IT WAS IT WAS EASIER THAN SOME OTHER BOOKS THAT I'VE DONE IN TERMS OF THE RESEARCH BECAUSE IT WAS KIND OF ALL CONCENTRATED IN ONE PLACE.

YOU CAN GET VERBATIM QUOTES I GUESS FROM THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE TRIALS.

ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN I DID DO I DID GO OUT TO PACO'S AND STAY IN THE SWISS CHALET AND TRY TO YOU KNOW SOAK THE ARMY OUT SO WE COULD YOU KNOW MAKE SURE TO PORTRAY THAT VIVIDLY BECAUSE THE A LOT OF WAYS AS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK AS WELL.

RIGHT.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS TRIAL TAKE PLACE AND PICK UP TEXAS WHICH IS NOT KNOWN FOR ITS GRAND HOTELS AND ACCOMMODATIONS.

YOU TOUCHED ON THAT.

YEAH.

SO ESPECIALLY IN 2016 YOU KNOW THE OIL BOOM WAS KIND OF JUST HITTING ITS PEAK AND THE HOTEL BUILDING HAD NOT KEPT UP WITH THAT IF YOU GOT TO PAY CORPS THERE'S A NUMBER OF OTHER YOU KNOW SORT OF MODEST HOTELS YOU CAN STAY BUT THERE'S THERE'S CERTAINLY NOT A YOU KNOW A HYATT REGENCY OR YOU KNOW A RITZ CARLTON IN VEGAS AND SO THE NICEST PLACE TO STAY WAS THE BEST WESTERN SWISS CHALET AND THEY TOOK LIKE 20 ROOMS FOR THE LEGAL TEAM TO STAY THERE.

BUT WHAT I LOVED ABOUT THE STORY AND THIS WAS VERY TRUE OF PICKENS I SAW THIS HAPPEN IN A NUMBER OF TIMES WITH HIM.

YOU KNOW HE WAS A BILLIONAIRE.

HE HAD HIS OWN PLANE.

HE WAS USED TO YOU KNOW THE GOOD THINGS IN LIFE.

BUT IF YOU TOLD HIM YOU GOT TO STAY AT THE BEST WESTERN.

HE WAS FINE WITH IT YOU KNOW NEVER COMPLAINED THAT IT WAS NOT OK.

YOU KNOW PERFECTLY HAPPY TO STAY THERE IN FACT LOVED HAVING BREAKFAST WITH ALL THE OILFIELD HANDS IN THE MORNING AND YOU KNOW HEARING THEIR STORIES AND WHAT THEY WERE WORKING ON AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND SO YOU KNOW I REALLY ENJOYED WRITING THOSE PARTS OF THE BOOK BECAUSE I THINK IT REALLY KIND OF BROUGHT OUT A SIDE OF HIS CHARACTER THAT PEOPLE MAY NOT BE AWARE OF.

YOU KNOW THIS KIND OF THERE WAS SORT OF THIS DOWN HOME ASPECT TO HIM THAT HE NEVER HE NEVER LOST I MEAN AS YOU SAID HE WAS BORN IN A SMALL TOWN IN OKLAHOMA AND PART OF THAT WAS ALWAYS WITH HIM.

AND YOU CAN STILL BLAIR FROM GARY CREAM.

I THINK EVERY TIME YOU RELATE TO.

ABSOLUTELY SO WITHOUT GETTING TOO FAR INTO THE WEEDS CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT THIS TRIAL WAS ACTUALLY ABOUT WHAT THE DISPUTE WAS.

YES IT WAS.

IT WAS ABOUT A DRILLING PROSPECT CALLED A RED BULL AND IT WAS BASICALLY IN AN AREA OF THE PERMIAN BASIN WHICH WAS KNOWN AS THE DELAWARE BASIN WHICH IS NOW LIKE ONE OF THE HOTTEST PLACES TO DRILL FOR OIL AND GAS AND ALL OF WEST TEXAS IN 2000 AND 7.

NOBODY KNEW THERE WAS THAT MUCH OIL AND GAS THERE AND SO THERE WERE THERE BEEN ONE WELL DRILLED IT WASN'T THAT GREAT THIS GUY IN DALLAS NAMED JIMMY THOMPSON STARTED PUTTING A TOGETHER WAS HELPING TO PUT A DEAL TOGETHER AND HE HAD KNOWN PICKENS FOR A LONG TIME.

WE CALLED HIM UP.

HE SAID HEY YOU WANT IN AND BOONE HAD A LITTLE INVESTMENT COMPANY ON THE SIDE THAT DID OIL AND GAS DEALS AND HE SAID SURE YOU KNOW I'LL BE AND I'LL GO IN FOR 15 PERCENT.

AND SO THEY THEY STARTED OUT WITH THAT ONE AREA AND THEN THEY AS THEY BEGAN TO DRILL.

THEY STARTED TO FIND YOU KNOW THERE WAS MORE MORE OIL AND THEY BEGAN TO EXPAND THE DRILLING AREA DRILL MORE WELLS ULTIMATELY DRILLED ABOUT 76 WELLS ON THE PROPERTY BUT BASICALLY AFTER THE FIRST WELLS OR SO THEY KIND OF JUST CUT HIM OUT OF THE DEAL.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS ONE OF THE OTHER PARTNERS I WANTED THE OTHER DEFENDANTS WITH A CASE NEEDED TO RAISE MORE MONEY.

AND THEY REALLY WANTED TO GET PICKENS 15 PERCENT BACK AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO SELL IT.

AND SO THEY JUST KIND OF STOPPED SENDING HIM NOTICES AND DIDN'T KEEP UPDATED ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

AND FOR HIM IT WAS A RELATIVELY SMALL DEAL.

HE SAID AT ONE POINT IN THE TRIAL I SAID IT WAS A PEANUT INVESTMENT.

SO HE WASN'T REALLY PAYING MUCH ATTENTION AND THEN A NUMBER OF YEARS LATER HE REALIZED HEY I'VE NEVER HEARD OF YOU KNOW SUDDENLY THE PERMIAN BASIN IS BOOMING AND THEY'RE DRILLING LIKE CRAZY AND WHATEVER HAPPENED TO DEAL WHAT WE HAD OUT THERE AND THAT WAS KIND OF WHEN THEY REALIZED THAT THEY HAD A PROBLEM SO THAT WAS A WONDERFUL EXPLANATION BUT IT IS THE CASE OF A LOT OF COMPLICATED KIND OF SUBJECT MATTER ABOUT THE OIL BUSINESS CONTRACT LAW ACCOUNTING AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF AND SO KRISTA HAD THE DIFFICULT JOB OF BREAKING IT DOWN SO THE JURY COULD UNDERSTAND IT WHICH THEN I GUESS BOTH OF YOU HAD THE DIFFICULT JOB MAKING IT SO THE READER COULD UNDERSTAND IT.

ABSOLUTELY.

YEAH YEAH.

AND I WAS GLAD SHE HAD DONE THE BREAKDOWN FOR THE JURY FIRST BECAUSE THAT MADE IT A LITTLE BIT EASIER TO GET INSIDE SOME OF THIS STUFF.

AND OF COURSE I'VE COVERED THE OIL INDUSTRY FOR MANY MANY YEARS SO I WAS FAMILIAR WITH SOME OF YEAH I KNEW HOW FRACKING WORKED BECAUSE MY BOOK ON GEORGE MITCHELL WHICH WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE LAST TIME I WAS HERE AND THINGS LIKE THAT SO THAT HELPED TOO.

BUT IT IS THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND THE FACT THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH A LOT OF COMPLICATED CONTRACT TERMS AND THINGS LIKE THAT SHE SHE TALKS A LOT ABOUT IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE JURY SERVICE AND SO FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVEN'T BEEN PRIVILEGED ENOUGH TO SERVE ON A JURY WHAT DOES THAT PROCESS LIKE AND WHAT ARE THE LAWYERS LOOKING FOR WHEN THEY'RE PICKING THE JURY YOU KNOW THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO ME HER ANALYSIS OF HOW JURIES SELECTION WORKS FROM A LAWYER'S PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE I HAD NEVER REALLY HAD ANYBODY WALK ME THROUGH THAT BUT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO WHEN YOU PICK A JURY IF YOU'RE THE IF YOU'RE THE LAWYER IS YOU BASICALLY HAVE TO GIVE WAY THOUGH YOU WILL TELL THE WEAKEST PARTS OF YOUR CASE BECAUSE TRYING TO SEE WHO'S GOING TO RULE AGAINST YOU YOU TRY TO SEE YOU KNOW AS SHE PUTS IT WHO'S GONNA HATE YOU AND YOU WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE POOL AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE AND SO AT THE SAME TIME YOU'RE TRYING TO YOU KNOW IT'S THE FIRST CHANCE YOU HAVE TO TALK TO POTENTIAL JURORS.

SO YOU WANT TO TRY TO GET THEM ON YOUR SIDE AND YOU WANT THEM TO BELIEVE THAT YOUR CASE IS STRONG BUT YOU'RE ALSO TRYING TO SHOW WHAT YOU'RE WEAKEST PARTS ARE SO YOU CAN IDENTIFY THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO ARE GOING TO AGAINST YOU.

THIS IS VERY VERY COMPLEX PROCESS AND INVOLVES A LOT OF PSYCHOLOGY A LOT OF OBSERVATIONAL SKILLS AND MUCH MUCH MORE INVOLVED THAN I EVER REALIZED AND I'VE YOU KNOW I'VE SAT THROUGH A FEW JURY SELECTION PROCESSES I NEVER KNEW THE COMPLEXITY THAT WAS GOING ON ON THE OTHER SIDE.

AND SHE HAD THE TASK YOU KNOW THIS WHOLE THING REALLY BOILS DOWN TO DID HE WENT OUT AND DID HE SIGN TO GET OUT OR DID HE KNOW HOW DID.

AND THEN I GUESS THE DEFENSE'S POINT OF VIEW WAS HOW COULD HE NOT KNOW.

HOW COULD HE NOT BE INVOLVED IN HIS BUSINESS DEALINGS IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY THE FIRST QUESTION I RAISED WHEN I WAS WHEN I WAS READING THROUGH THIS COME ON.

HOW DID YOU NOT KNOW.

BUT YOU KNOW IT'S LIKE A LOT OF THINGS IT REALLY CAME DOWN TO THERE WAS NEVER A WRITTEN DOCUMENT THAT HE SIGNED THAT SAID I WENT OUT OF THE DEAL AND IT WAS VERY CLEAR UNDER THE CONTRACT THAT IF YOU WANTED OUT THERE HAD TO BE A WRITTEN AGREEMENT AND THAT NEVER HAPPENED AND REALLY THE DEFENSE'S MAIN ARGUMENT IN THE CASE WAS THAT HE HAD TOLD THIS GUY JIMMY THOMPSON THAT HE WANTED OUT JIMMY THOMPSON DIED IN 2011.

AND SO THE ONLY EVIDENCE WAS THAT SOMEBODY ELSE OVERHEARD THE PHONE CALL WHERE HE TOLD JIMMY THOMPSON HE WANTED OUT AND THERE WAS NO DOCUMENTED PROOF OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AND SO YOU KNOW THAT WAS REALLY A CHALLENGE FROM THE DEFENSE STANDPOINT BUT IT WAS ALSO SOMETHING THAT THAT YOU KNOW KRISTA HAD TO KEEP DEALING WITH BECAUSE THEY KEPT BRINGING IT YOU KNOW HE SAID HE WANTED OUT.

HE SAID HE WANTED OUT AND IT'S LIKE YELL BUT YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT THAT THAT THAT'S THE CASE.

AND I THINK SHE WAS REALLY SMART IN HOW SHE PRESENTED THAT TO THE JURY BECAUSE WELL YOU MAY WANT TO GET OUT OF A MARRIAGE BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO SIGN DIVORCE PAPERS.

YOU MAY WANT TO GET OUT OF YOUR CURRENT HOME BUT YOU HAVE TO SELL.

I MEAN THERE ARE PEOPLE NORMAL PEOPLE REGULAR LAY PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT CONTRACTS ARE IMPORTANT AND THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THINGS IN WRITING?

SO ABSOLUTELY I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A CONCEPT THAT RESONATED WITH THE JURY PAPERWORK THAT WAS THAT WAS THE THEME AND YOU IN THE JURY SELECTION EVEN THEY STARTED HAMMERING ON THAT THEME AND IT KIND OF CORY THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL YOU MENTIONED HER SISTER BUT SHE HAD EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS HER OWN LAW FIRM SHE HAD STARTED REPRESENTING PICKENS SHE HAD KIND OF A BUILT HER OWN DREAM TEAM TO DEFEND.

WELL SHE SHE ACTUALLY SHE WAS KIND OF JUST HER AND ONE ASSISTANT AND THEN ONCE SHE GOT THIS CASE AND THEY REALIZED HOW BIG IT WAS SHE STARTED ENLISTING OTHER OTHER LAWYERS AT OTHER FIRMS TO KIND OF BUILD OUT THIS TEAM AND YEAH IT WAS KIND OF A DREAM TEAM BECAUSE YOU HAD LAWYERS WHO WERE EXPERTS THAT YOU KNOW TRIAL LITIGATION THAT TRIED BIG CASES THAT KNEW HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS KIND OF STUFF.

SHE HAD A LOT OF EXPERTISE IN OIL GAS.

THEY HAD ANOTHER GUY WHO WAS ACTUALLY A FORMER SOAP OPERA STAR IN LATIN AMERICA AND YOU KNOW HE WAS VERY COMFORTABLE TALKING TO THE JURY AND A LOT OF CHARISMA.

AND THE JURORS JUST HUNG ON EVERY WORD HE SAID.

SO HE'S REALLY KIND OF INTERESTING THEY ALSO HAD A ANOTHER LAWYER WHO WAS A LOCAL ATTORNEY FROM PACO'S WHO KNEW EVERYBODY IN TOWN BASICALLY KNEW EVERYBODY ON THE JURY AND HAD A LOT OF INSIGHTS WHAT ARGUMENTS WOULD WORK AND WHAT WOULDN'T?

AND SO IT WAS A VERY INTERESTING TEAM THAT YOU PUT TOGETHER KIND OF ON THE FLY.

WELL I'M GOING TO FOLLOW YOUR ADVICE.

I'M GOING TO BRING PICKENS BACK INTO.

OK BECAUSE HE'S NOT THE TYPE.

EVEN THOUGH HE WAS THERE EVERY DAY HE WASN'T THE TYPE TO JUST SIT BACK AND BE A PASSIVE VIEW.

NO NO HE DEFINITELY HAD VERY STRONG OPINIONS ON WHAT SHOULD BE SAID AND IN FACT THE VERY FIRST CHAPTER TALKS ABOUT THE CONFLICT THAT THAT KRISTA AND BOONE HAD OVER HOW TO PRESENT THE CASE BECAUSE BOONE WANTED TO ARGUE THE GEOLOGY.

THAT'S WHAT HE KNEW RIGHT.

AND HE WAS SO INCENSED ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED THAT HE JUST KEPT SAYING WE HAVE TO DO IT THIS WAY WE HAVE TO DO THIS AND SHE KEPT SAYING NO THAT'S NOT GOING TO WIN THE CASE YOU KNOW.

AND THEY HAD THE FIRST CHAPTER IS ACTUALLY THIS BIG ARGUABLY THE BIGGEST ARGUMENT THEY HAD THE WHOLE PROCESS AND AND I DID THAT ON PURPOSE BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT REALLY KIND OF GOT TO THE DRAMA AND THE TENSION AND IT ALSO SHOWED THEIR RELATIONSHIP HOW YOU KNOW THEY REALLY LIKED EACH OTHER?

THEY WERE THEY?

THEY BECAME VERY CLOSE AS THEY WENT THROUGH THIS TRIAL.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS ALWAYS THIS CONFLICT THERE.

AND SO IT'S REALLY I KEEP COMING BACK TO THE TRUE THING BUT IT REALLY WAS A LOT LIKE THAT.

YOU KNOW IT WAS VERY RELATIONSHIP TO WRITE ABOUT.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MONEY ASPECT BECAUSE THIS IS A LOT OF MONEY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUT HE WAS ALSO A MAN WHO ALREADY HAD A LOT OF MONEY.

SO I THINK THAT WAS A CHALLENGE TO GET ACROSS TO THE JURY THAT YOU KNOW.

YES HE STILL HAD A LOT OF MONEY BUT HE'S OWED THIS MONEY.

SO IT DOESN'T MEAN THE AMOUNT SHOULDN'T MATTER.

YOU KNOW SHE TALKS ABOUT HOW THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIG CONCERNS GOING INTO IT WAS YOU KNOW WOULD JURORS FEEL ANY SYMPATHY FOR A GUY WHO WAS A BILLIONAIRE YOU KNOW BECAUSE HE GOT CHEATED OUT OF SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS OR WHATEVER AND YOU KNOW THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT THEY WORRIED ABOUT.

ULTIMATELY I THINK IT WASN'T A PROBLEM.

I MEAN THERE WAS THERE WAS THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT CAME TESTIMONY THAT SHOWED THAT THE COMPANIES THERE WAS MONEY THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO COME BACK TO PICKENS AND HIS INVESTMENT FIRM THAT THE COMPANY NEVER SIGNED OVER.

IT WAS LIKE TWENTY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS AND THEY WERE VERY DISMISSIVE OF IT I WAS ONLY 27.

AND YOU KNOW THAT'S SOMETHING THAT TO A LOT OF JURORS THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY TO ME THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY.

AND I WOULD SAY I WOULD SAY WELL SO I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY ATTITUDE THAT MONEY DIDN'T MATTER WAS WAS ONE THAT KIND OF THE DEFENSE ALMOST FELL INTO THAT TRAP AS OPPOSED TO TO PICKENS HIMSELF.

THE OTHER THING WAS THE PICKENS JUST YOU KNOW IF YOU EVER MET HIM HE REALLY CONNECTED WITH PEOPLE HE KNEW HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE AND HE KIND OF KNEW HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AND SO HE REALLY HAD YOU KNOW HE REALLY KIND OF DEVELOPED A RAPPORT WITH THE JURORS AND THEY KIND OF IDENTIFIED WITH HIM AND I THINK THAT THAT MADE IT THEY THEY WERE VERY SYMPATHETIC.

YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THE CHAPTER ABOUT HIS TESTIMONY.

HE HE'S AN OLDER MAN YOU KNOW HE'S IN THE LATE 80S AT THIS POINT BUT HE STILL KNOWS HOW TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE AND HOW TO I GUESS KIND OF PLAY FROM THE PARAMETERS THAT HE'S BOXED INTO WITH THE JUDGE WANTING ONE THING THE LAWYER WANTING ONE THING.

BUT HE HAD HIS OWN AGENDA AND HE WANTS TO APPEAL TO THE JURY.

RIGHT.

YEAH HE HE DID A VERY EFFECTIVE JOB.

YOU KNOW TRYING TO SHOW THAT THAT YOU KNOW HE WAS BASICALLY THE JUDGE WOULDN'T LET HIM SAY EVERYTHING HE WANTED TO SAY.

AND YOU KNOW HE COULD ACT CONFUSED WHAT IT WAS TO HIS ADVANTAGE.

BUT THEN HE WOULD TURN RIGHT AROUND AND CITE YOU KNOW ALL THE SPECIFICS OF THE CASE YOU KNOW MENTALLY HE WAS STILL VERY VERY SHARP AT AGE 88.

I ALWAYS SAID THAT ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT BOONE PICKENS WAS THAT HE HAD THIS INCREDIBLE HEAD FOR NUMBERS AND I REMEMBER THIS ONE IN THE BOOK.

BUT I REMEMBER SITTING IN HIS OFFICE ONE TIME AND WE GOT TALKING ABOUT THE GRAND WEST TEXAS RANCHES YOU KNOW AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MATADOR RANCH OUT THERE LUBBOCK.

AND HE KIND OF LOOKED AT ME AND HE SAID I THINK THAT'S ABOUT I THINK WAS HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND ACRES AND I'M LIKE YOU KNOW I DON'T.

I MEAN OF COURSE A LOT OF THOSE RANCHES ARE SOLD OFF PROPERTY OF STUFF AND WE GOOGLED IT AND SURE ENOUGH HE WAS HE WAS DEAD ON SOMEBODY.

HE JUST REMEMBERED NUMBERS HE COULD CALCULATIONS IN HIS HEAD VERY VERY QUICKLY.

AND THAT REALLY WAS TRUE UP UNTIL THE LAST FEW MONTHS OF HIS LIFE.

SO BEFORE THIS TRIAL AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HE ALREADY HAD A PRETTY IMPRESSIVE LEGACY AND A MAN MADE A NAME FOR HIMSELF IN MULTIPLE DIFFERENT CIRCLES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS CHILD DID TO ALTER OR TO IMPACT HIS LEGACY.

WELL I THINK IN SOME WAYS IT KIND OF PUT AN EXCLAMATION MARK ON HIS LEGACY YOU KNOW I MEAN IT WAS JUST ONE MORE EXAMPLE OF YOU KNOW THIS WAS A GUY WHO WHO FOR MANY MANY YEARS BELIEVED IN FIGHTING FOR WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS RIGHT?

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE TAKEOVER DAYS YOU KNOW THOSE ARE CONTROVERSIAL DEALS THAT WAS A CONTROVERSIAL TIME THE WHOLE STRATEGY.

YOU KNOW DIFFERENT PEOPLE YOU KNOW YOU CAN FIND PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR JOBS BECAUSE OF HIS TAKEOVER ATTEMPTS AND THEY STILL GET VERY ANGRY WHEN YOU MENTIONED HIS NAME?

BUT WHAT HE BELIEVED HE WAS DOING WAS FIGHTING FOR SHAREHOLDER RIGHTS.

HE BELIEVED THAT THAT THE SHAREHOLDERS OF THESE LARGE COMPANIES WERE NOT GETTING THE RETURNS THAT THEY DESERVED BECAUSE MANAGEMENT REALLY HAD NO REASON TO ANSWER TO THEM AND SO YOU KNOW THIS CASE LIKE THOSE CASES THIS CASE WAS ABOUT WHAT WAS RIGHT AND THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW INVESTORS IN OIL DEALS SHOULDN'T BE TREATED THIS WAY.

I MEAN HE REALLY BELIEVED THAT.

AND I THINK HE ALSO BELIEVED THAT THAT YOU KNOW HE HAD THE RESOURCES TO FIGHT THIS.

MANY OTHER PEOPLE GET INVOLVED IN OIL DEALS MAY NOT.

AND YOU KNOW THIS CAN'T STAND KIND OF THING THAT WAS IT'S A PRINCIPLED STAND.

HE HAS THE MONEY TO SET PRECEDENT WITH WITH A COURT CASE SETTLED.

I THINK YOU CAN SEE THE GREATER VALUE AND WHEN HE'S NOT JUST FIGHTING FOR MONEY HE'S FIGHTING FOR SOMETHING LARGER.

ABSOLUTELY.

SO UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE RUNNING SHORT ON TIME HERE BUT IN OUR FINAL COUPLE OF MINUTES WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE BOOK OR MAYBE EVEN T. BOONE PICKENS HIS LEGACY.

YES I THINK THAT YOU KNOW ASIDE FROM THIS ISSUE OF YOU KNOW FIGHTING FOR PRINCIPLES I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD LOVE FOR PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE BOOK IS IS JUST THE ENJOYMENT OF THE STORY OF THIS COURTROOM DRAMA AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HIM AND THIS LAWYER.

AND AS YOU SAY THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS WHO HAVE VERY LITTLE IN COMMON IN TERMS OF THEIR BELIEFS CAN STILL FIND COMMON GROUND.

I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE IN THIS DAY AND AGE YOU KNOW THEY REALLY BONDED OVER THIS CASE AND YOU COULDN'T FIND TWO PEOPLE WHO WERE MORE DIFFERENT THAN CHRISTA KARSTEN AND TO DO IT BECAUSE AND YET THEY THEY FORMED THIS WONDERFUL FRIENDSHIP AS A RESULT IT'S REALLY NICE TO SEE AND I WOULD HOPE MORE OF US CAN FORM BONDS WITH PEOPLE WHO MAYBE WE DON'T AGREE WITH EITHER.

BULL THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS BOOK THIS IS A NEW PUBLISHING VENTURE YOU'RE DOING.

IT IS.

YES.

THAT'S THAT'S BEEN QUITE AN EXPERIENCE PUBLISHING.

EASY RIGHT.

YES.

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.

LEAVE IT TO THE PROFESSIONALS AND I AM I'LL TAKE CARE OF YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

ABSOLUTELY.

REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AS USUAL.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS CALLED THE LAST TRIAL OF T BOONE PICKENS BY LAUREN STEFFEY AND KRISTA KARSTEN NEDA THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

AND I WILL SEE YOU AGAIN