HELLO WELCOME TO THE BOOK MARK ON CHRISTINE BROWN YOUR HOST TODAY MY GUEST IS LAUREN SEE STAFFING AUTHOR OF THE MAN WHO THOUGHT LIKE A SHIP LAUREN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

WELL I WANT TO SAY I JUST LOVE THE TITLE OF THIS BOOK IT'S JUST VERY EVOCATIVE TO START OUT WITH CAN YOU JUST GIVE US A SUMMARY OF THE BOOK AND A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOURSELF.

SURE.

I MEAN THE BOOK IS REALLY A BIOGRAPHY OF MY FATHER AND HE HAD A RATHER UNUSUAL CAREER HE STARTED LIFE AS A SMALL TOWN ELECTRICIAN WENT ON TO BECOME THE FIRST MAN TO REBUILD AN ANCIENT SHIPPED FROM ITS ORIGINAL FRAGMENTS AND ACTUALLY WANNA MACARTHUR FELLOWSHIP AND WOUND UP TEACHING HERE AT TEXAS SAY NO.

SO IT WAS A STORY THAT I USED TO TELL A LOT OF MY FRIENDS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE I MET YOU KNOW IT WAS KIND OF A THING.

I WAS A BUSINESS REPORTER FOR MANY MANY YEARS IN TEXAS AND A COLUMNIST FOR THE HOUSTON CHRONICLE AND I WOULD GO AND MEET PEOPLE AND THEY'D SAY WHERE ARE YOU FROM.

AND I SAID WELL I GREW UP IN COLLEGE STATION.

OH AS YOUR FATHER PROFESSOR YES WHAT DID HE TEACH.

AND THEN THERE'S A 20 MINUTE EXPLOITATION AND SO I THOUGHT YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE THAT MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE INTERESTED?

MAYBE IT'S WORTH DOING A BOOK.

SO THAT WAS KIND OF A KIND OF HOW CAME TOGETHER AS YOU MENTIONED IT'S ABOUT YOUR FATHER AND I WOULD IMAGINE THAT MAKES RESEARCH AND WRITING A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN IF IT WAS JUST A DIFFERENT KIND OF BIOGRAPHY YOU KNOW I HAD TO KIND OF STEP BACK FROM IT.

I MEAN AS A JOURNALIST YOU LEARNED ALWAYS TRY TO BE OBJECTIVE AND THIS WAS A LITTLE TRICKY BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I CAN'T REALLY BE OBJECTIVE WRITING ABOUT MY FATHER BUT I DID TRY TO KIND OF STEP BACK AND USE THE SAME RULES OF DOCUMENTATION AND ASKING DIFFERENT PEOPLE ABOUT EVENTS THAT HAPPEN.

YOU KNOW EVERYBODY WHO WAS THERE.

KIND OF THING.

AND YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT'S TOUGH.

I MEAN EVEN MY OWN MEMORIES WERE NOT NECESSARILY RELIABLE.

YOU KNOW I MEAN I WAS A CHILD AND SO THINGS THAT I REMEMBER WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY EXACTLY HOW THEY HAVE.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU THAT.

HOW MUCH OF THIS.

DID YOU REMEMBER AND HOW MUCH DID YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY JUST RESEARCH ON A KIND OF USE MY MEMORY IS A ROADMAP AND THEN I TALKED TO MY BROTHER WHO WAS A LITTLE BIT.

SEVEN YEARS OLDER THAN ME.

SO HE HAD A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE HE WAS A LITTLE FURTHER ALONG THE CURVE.

YOU KNOW IF YOU WILL AND SO BUT THEN I WENT AROUND SYSTEMATICALLY YOU KNOW INTERVIEWING ALL THE PEOPLE OF MY FATHER WORKED WITH I INTERVIEWED MY AUNT UNCLE.

HIS BROTHER AND SISTER AND MY AUNT AS A WRITER WAS A WRITER ALSO AND SO SHE HAD WRITTEN A WONDERFUL FAMILY HISTORY WITH A LOT OF PERSPECTIVE AND INSIDE AND MY FATHER HAD WRITTEN A FAMILY HISTORY FOR CHILDREN FROM MY BROTHERS CHILDREN OF MY CHILDREN AND SO WE HAD KIND OF THOSE TWO AND THEY WERE VERY DIFFERENT ACTUALLY EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT MANY OF THE SAME THINGS WAS VERY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

SO I STARTED TO KIND OF DRAWING ON THAT AS WELL AS LETTERS THAT MY FATHER HAD WRITTEN TO MY MOTHER WHEN HE WAS OVERSEAS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND THEN OF COURSE LIKE I SAY PERSONAL INTERVIEWS AS WELL AS YOU KNOW A LOT OF THE PUBLICATIONS AND WHATNOT DONE ABOUT SOME OF THE SHIP PROJECTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT WHAT IS YOUR FATHER INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS AT ALL.

SO MY FATHER PASSED AWAY IN 2007 AND ACTUALLY AS WE WERE WALKING OUT OF THE FUNERAL MY OLDEST SON SAID TO ME WE NEED TO GO TO CYPRUS BECAUSE MY KIDS AND NEVER BEEN I HADN'T BEEN BACK SINCE THE EARLY 70S AND AND SO THAT KIND OF STARTED THE PROCESS I TOOK THE FAMILY.

WE SAW THE CREATIVE SHIP WHICH WAS HIS FIRST MAJOR RECONSTRUCTION AND THEN I STARTED THINKING MORE AND MORE ABOUT DOING A BLOCK FROM THAT POINT.

SO I KIND OF FEEL LIKE IF MY DAD HAD BEEN ALIVE HE WOULD HAVE NOT WANTED ME TO DO THIS.

I THINK BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE AFTER READING THE BOOK I HAVE NO YOUR DAD YOU KNOW I KNOW HIM AND I THINK HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FORTHCOMING.

HE WOULD HAVE WONDERED WHY WOULD ANYONE CARE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT.

YEAH YEAH JUST THE WHOLE PROCESS.

WELL I WANT TO GET INTO HISTORIC AS IT IS.

IS IT JUST FASCINATING AND RIVETING.

TELL US ABOUT HIS EARLY LIFE IT SEEMS LIKE HE WAS INTERESTED AND SHIPS FROM DAY ONE YEAH IT WAS REALLY ACTUALLY THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DIDN'T FULLY RESOLVED IN THE BOOK BUT I SPENT A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SPARKED HIS INTEREST BECAUSE MY FATHER HIMSELF SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW HE JUST REMEMBERS FROM THE TIME HE WAS A LITTLE KID HE WAS FASCINATED WITH SHIPS AND HE WAS LIVING IN THIS LITTLE TOWN CALLED DENVER PENNSYLVANIA WHICH IS ABOUT 60 MILES WEST OF PHILADELPHIA SO IT'S LANDLOCKED I MEAN IT'S PRETTY FAR FROM TIDEWATER AND YET HE JUST WAS FASCINATED WITH SHIPS AND AGAIN TALKING TO MY AUNT WHO WAS THERE FOR A LOT OF THOSE EARLY YEARS AND HAD A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

SHE REMEMBERED THAT MY GRANDFATHER SAYS OF MY DAD'S FATHER HAD A PICTURE OF THE SHIP HE SERVED ON A WORLD WAR 1 HANGING BEHIND HIS CHAIR AND I REMEMBER BEING THERE.

IT WAS THERE.

YOU KNOW PRETTY MUCH THE WHOLE TIME THEY LIVED IN THAT HOUSE AND WHEN.

WHEN HIS KIDS WERE LITTLE AND MY DAD AND HIS SIBLINGS WERE LITTLE.

THEY WOULD KIND OF GATHERED HIS FEET AND ASK HIM TO TELL STORIES ABOUT THE WAR.

WELL MY GRANDFATHER REALLY DIDN'T ENJOY BEING IN THE NAVY.

HE WAS A FIREMAN SO HE GOT LOCKED OUT OF THE BOILER ROOM IF THEY GOT INTO COMBAT OR ANYTHING.

HE WAS LIKE BASICALLY TRAPPED IN THEIR BUT APPARENTLY THOSE EARLY STORIES KIND OF CAPTIVATED AT LEAST ACCORDING TO MY AUNT SHE'S OF MY DAD WAS JUST RIVETED TO THESE TALES AND SHE THINKS THAT'S WHERE HIS INTEREST BEGAN.

MY DAD KIND OF SHRUGGED AND SAID THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT BY THE TIME HE WAS IN THE THIRD GRADE.

HE WAS OBSESSED WITH SHIPS AND HE WAS BUILDING PAPER MODELS OF SHIPS HE WOULD HE WOULD MAKE PASTE OUT OF FLOUR AND WATER AND THEN HE WOULD HE WOULD GET YOU KNOW SCRAP PAPER AND BUILD THESE SHIPS AND HE BUILT AN ENTIRE FLEET AND HE HAD THEM ALL OVER THE LIVING ROOM FLOOR AND HE HAD A TEACHER WHO REALLY CULTIVATED HIS INTEREST AND GOT HIM BOOKS ON SHIPS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THEN HE WOULD TRY TO MAKE PAPER MODELS RESEMBLED THE SHIPS AND THAT KIND OF THING.

AND SO HE REALLY CREDITED HER WITH SORT OF ENCOURAGING HIS INTEREST AND REALLY NURTURING THAT AND BRINGING IT OUT.

SO WELL AND SO AFTER AFTER HE GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL.

I DON'T THINK IT'S SURPRISING THAT SOMEONE WHO LOVES SHIPS THAT MUCH JOINING THE NAVY TELL US ABOUT HIS YEAH I MEAN IT WAS AN INTERESTING WAY TO GET THERE BECAUSE MY DAD WAS NOT TERRIBLY GREAT STUDENT AND THOSE TO.

I MEAN A HIGH SCHOOL HE WAS.

A TYPICAL HIGH SCHOOL OR HE GETS AND A LOT OF WAYS YOU WAS A REALLY INTO SPORTS BUT HE YOU KNOW HIS SENIOR YEAR HE KIND OF DIDN'T PUT THAT MUCH EFFORT INTO IT AND HE ACTUALLY FLUNKED MATH AND HE DIDN'T FIND OUT UNTIL ABOUT A MONTH BEFORE GRADUATION AND YOU HAVE TO KIND OF STEP BACK HERE TO UNDERSTAND THE DENVER PENNSYLVANIA AT THAT TIME PROBABLY HAD ABOUT 1000 PEOPLE MAY BE 5900 IS VERY VERY SMALL.

MY GRANDPARENTS RAN THE ONLY ELECTRICAL BUSINESS IN TOWN MY GRANDMOTHER HAD A STORE ON MAIN STREET AND SO EVERYBODY KNEW THE STEPHANIE'S RIGHT AND FOR MY FATHER TO FAIL MATH AND HAVE TO REPEAT THE GRADE JUST A MAJOR EMBARRASSMENT FOR THE FAMILY AND MY GRANDMOTHER APPARENTLY LOBBIED THE SCHOOL BOARD OF TRIED EVERYTHING AND IT WAS NO HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO REPEAT HIS SENIOR YEAR FORTUNATELY VERY EARLY ON THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH ROOM AND HIS.

I THINK IT WAS HIS FIRST GRADE CLASSROOM AND SO THEY HAD BUMPED HIM UPGRADE BECAUSE THEY NEEDED THE SPACE AND SO HE WENT TO GRADUATE EXACTLY WHERE HE SHOULD HAVE.

BUT IN A CLASS OF NINE.

BY THE WAY.

THERE WERE NINE NINE PEOPLE GRADUATING IN HIS CLASS BUT SO BECAUSE HE HAD THIS SORT OF SETBACK.

HE HAD BEEN REALLY PRESSING.

YOU KNOW A LOT OF THE KIDS WERE GOING OFF AND ENLISTING BECAUSE A WORLD WAR II WAS STARTING AND THEY WANTED TO GO FIGHT HITLER AND IN A TOWN WHERE THE ROOTS WERE ALMOST ENTIRELY GERMAN THESE WERE ALL GERMAN AMERICANS.

THERE WAS ALMOST AN OVERT SENSE OF WE'RE GOING TO SHOW HOW AMERICAN WE ARE RIGHT.

AND SO I THINK MY DAD KIND OF GOT CAUGHT UP IN THAT AND HE ACTUALLY WANTED TO QUIT SCHOOL AND IN LIST.

YOU KNOW WHEN HE DURING HIS ORIGINAL SENIOR YEAR AND MIGHT MY GRANDPARENTS WHO NEITHER OF THEM HAD HAD GRABBED MY GRANDMOTHER HAD.

I THINK SHE STOPPED GOING TO SCHOOL IN THE FOURTH GRADE BECAUSE SHE GOT SECOND MY GRANDFATHER.

I THINK MADE IT THROUGH THE SIXTH GRADE BUT YOU KNOW.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF SCHOOLING THEMSELVES AND YET THEY TOLD HIM NO YOU'RE GOING TO FINISH YOUR GONNA GET YOUR DEGREE AND THEN THEN YOU CAN GO ON AND LIST AND SO THAT'S WHAT HE DID AND SPENT THREE YEARS IN THE NAVY ON A DESTROYER ESCORT AND REALLY REALLY DID NOT ENJOY HIS TIME IN THE MILITARY.

AT ALL.

DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF COMBAT YOU KNOW IT'S ALL YOU HEAR A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY YOU KNOW THEY CAME BACK FROM THE WAR AND THEY NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT RIGHT YOU HEAR THEIR FAMILY SO THEY NEVER TALKED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WAR.

MY DAD NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT I THINK BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE WHAT HE DID WASN'T WAS NOT NEARLY LIKE HE DIDN'T ENDURE WHAT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE DEAD.

AND SO HE JUST DIDN'T FEEL LIKE HE REALLY HAD MUCH TO SAY I THINK ABOUT IT BUT HE HE REALLY DID NOT LIKE THE MILITARY LIFESTYLE.

YOU KNOW THE WHOLE YOU KNOW FOLLOWING ORDERS AND YOU KNOW FOR THE SAKE OF FOLLOWING ORDERS AND HE TOLD ME LATER THAT IT WAS THE ONLY TIME IN HIS LIFE WHERE HE FELT LIKE HE WASN'T DOING ANYTHING.

PRODUCTIVE.

YOU KNOW AND SO WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM THE MILITARY WHEN HE GOT OUT OF THE MILITARY.

HE REALLY JUST SORT OF NEVER WANTED ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING THAT REMINDED HIM OF THE NAVY AFTER THAT IT WAS KIND OF INTERESTING NEVER WORE A PAIR OF BLUE JEANS AND HIS LIFE BECAUSE IT REMINDED HIM OF THE DUNGAREES HE HAD TO WEAR.

SHIP YOU'D RUN INTO THESE THINGS WHERE HE WOULD JUST SAY YOU KNOW A CERTAIN FOOD OR SOMETHING AND HE JUST WOULD NOT EAT BECAUSE IT REMINDED HIM OF THE NAVY'S SO KIND OF AN INTERESTING NOW HE'S ALWAYS VERY PROUD OF HIS SERVICE HE WAS GLAD THAT HE SERVED HE THOUGHT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO BUT HE DIDN'T ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE THEMSELVES SO AFTER THAT HE COMES HOME.

HE JOINS THE FAMILY BUSINESS AS AN ELECTRICIAN HOW DID THAT TRANSITION HOW DID YOU START MAKING MODELS YEAH YOU KNOW SOME LIKE MY GRANDFATHER ALREADY HAD ELECTRICAL BUSINESS IN TOWN AND IT WAS SORT OF A NATURAL THING MY DAD WENT TO TRADE SCHOOL FOR A FEW YEARS AND THEN CAME HOME AND STARTED WORKING WITH HIS FATHER AND THEY WERE THE ONLY ELECTRICIANS IN TOWN AT THE TIME AND SO YOU KNOW IT WAS A GOOD BUSINESS AND HE WAS MAKING A GOOD LIVING.

BUT AGAIN HE NEVER GAVE UP THIS LOVE OF SHIPS AND HE BEGAN TO BUILD SHIP MODELS JUST AS A HOBBY AND YOU KNOW THE THING ABOUT MY DAD WAS EVEN IN HIS HOBBIES.

HE WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO LEARN SOMETHING HE WAS ALWAYS TRY TO FIGURE SOMETHING OUT.

AND SO HE NEVER REALLY FINISH THE MODELS.

HE NEVER PAINTED THEM.

HE NEVER MADE THEM LOOK PRETTY.

HE NEVER PUT SALES ON THE SAILING SHIPS THAT HE DID WELL I SHOULDN'T SAY NEVER BUT THAT WAS THAT WAS ALWAYS KIND OF AN AFTERTHOUGHT EVEN WHEN WE WERE BUILDING MODEL RAILROADS AS KIDS WE WERE ALWAYS BUILDING THE LAYOUTS AND DOING THE ENGINEERING WORK NEVER DID ANY SCENERY.

WE HAD THIS BARON TRACK RUNNING AROUND THE BASEMENT BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT MY DAD AND MY BROTHER CARED ABOUT.

SO YOU KNOW HE STARTED THIS VERY SORT OF TECHNICAL APPROACH TO MODELING AND HE WOULD STUDY HOW THE SHIPS WERE BUILT SO THAT HE COULD BUILD BETTER MODELS AND ULTIMATELY THAT LED TO A MOMENT IN THE MID 1950S WHEN HE STARTED WORKING ON A MODEL OF AN EGYPTIAN SHIP AND A TIME THERE WAS VERY VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT EGYPTIAN SHIPS LIKE AND SO HE GATHERED WHAT LITTLE INFORMATION THERE WAS AND HE KNEW CERTAIN THINGS WE KNEW THAT THERE AREN'T A LOT OF TALL TREES IN EGYPT SO EGYPTIANS USED SHORT PLANKS BECAUSE THAT WAS THE WHAT THEY HAD TO WORK WITH.

SO HE STARTED WORKING ON THIS EGYPTIAN SHIP MODEL WHICH HAD THOUSANDS OF PEACE.

I WANT TO SAY ABOUT 6000 PIECES OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND HE CUT ALL OF THESE LITTLE LITTLE YOU KNOW IT WAS ALL TO SCALE SO THESE LITTLE ONE INCH PLANKS HE CUT AND JOIN THEM ALL WITH MORE DISCONTENTED JOINTS WHICH HE CUT.

HE MADE TOOTHPICKS AND LITERALLY HOOKED ALL THESE THINGS TOGETHER AND THEN GOT THE CURVATURE OF THE HALL THE SAME WITH THE EGYPTIANS DID HE TOOK A ROPE TRUSTS AND STRONG IT FROM STEM TO STERN AND THEN TIGHTENED IT UNTIL HE GOT TO SHAPE THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE AND THAT TOOK HIM ABOUT 12 YEARS WORKING IN OUR BASEMENT AT NIGHT YOU KNOW MY BROTHER CAME ALONG.

SOMEWHERE IN THAT TIME AND HE KEPT WORKING AND FEW YEARS BEFORE I WAS BORN HE FINALLY FINISHED IT THAT THAT BECAME HIS FIRST TRUE RESEARCH MODEL AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO JUMP AHEAD TO TOO WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT MODEL BUT WE CAN COME BACK HOME GO AHEAD.

WELL SO THIS IT BECAME A CRUCIAL MODEL IN TERMS OF HIS CAREER BECAUSE HE USED THAT TO TAKE THE PHILADELPHIA TO SHOW TO GEORGE BASS TO SHOW WHAT HE COULD DO AND THAT WAS WHAT LAUNCHED HIS CAREER NAUTICAL ARCHAEOLOGY BUT AFTER THAT NOBODY KNEW WHAT HAPPENED TO IT.

I MEAN MY DAD ALWAYS KIND OF SAID OH IT'S GONE OR SOMETHING AND SO I KIND OF ASSUME THAT HE THREW IT AWAY OR SOMETHING HAPPENED TO IT.

I MEAN MY DAD DIDN'T.

HE DIDN'T KEEP MODELS WHEN HE WAS FINISHED WITH THEM.

YOU KNOW.

SERVED THEIR PURPOSE AND HE WAS ONTO THE NEXT THING.

WHEN I WAS WORKING ON A BOOK I RAN ACROSS A COUPLE OF LETTERS FROM A WOMAN WHO HAD WORKED WITH MY DAD I KNEW HER NAME AND WE'VE MET A FEW TIMES.

MANY MANY YEARS AGO BUT AT THE PUT THE LETTER WAS FROM THE MUSEUM IN PHILADELPHIA AND SHE HAD BEEN WORKING THERE APPARENTLY AND BASICALLY WAS ASKING HIM WHAT SHOULD WE DO WITH THE SHIP THIS MODEL THAT YOU GOT THAT YOU GAVE US BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW.

DO YOU WANT IT BACK.

CAN WE.

YOU KNOW FOR TAX PURPOSES.

WE NEED TO KNOW AND SO I KIND OF SET THE LETTER ASSAD BECAUSE I'M LIKE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT WELL AFTER THE BOOK CAME OUT I ACTUALLY GOT IN TOUCH WITH HER.

AND I SAID YOU KNOW.

DO YOU REMEMBER RIGHTNESS LETTER SHE REMEMBERED NOTHING ABOUT IT BUT SHE STILL LIVED IN PHILLY AND SHE SAID LET ME CHECK AROUND I KNOW SOME PEOPLE TO MUSEUMS TWO DAYS LATER SHE CALLS ME BACK AND SHE SAYS I FOUND THE MODEL AND I'M LIKE I DIDN'T EVEN THOUGH IT'S STILL EXISTED WELL IT TURNED OUT THAT HE HAD IN FACT DONATED TO MUSEUM IT WOULD NOW IS THE INDEPENDENT SEAPORT MUSEUM AND THEY HAD THE ACCESSION THAT IN LIKE 93 BUT THE CURATOR JUST COULDN'T BRING HIMSELF TO THROW IT AWAY SO THEY KEPT IT IN THE BACK ROOM THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

AND SO I ACTUALLY GOT THEM TO DONATE IT TO THE INSTITUTE OF NAUTICAL ARCHAEOLOGY AND THEY SAID THEY SAID YOU KNOW THIS IS ALL GREAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY TO SHIP IT DOWN HERE SO I FLEW.

MY SON AND I FLEW UP TO PHILLY WE RENTED AN SUV WE GOT THE MODEL IN A BIG BOX AND DROVE AT HOME AND IT'S NOW ON DISPLAY OVER AT THE INSTITUTE'S OFFICES ZERO CAMPUS SO YEAH IT WAS REALLY IT WAS A REALLY FUN.

MARTIN YEAH THEY GOT SAY SO THAT FIRST MODEL KIND OF WAS HIS I GUESS HIS PASSPORT TO THE FUTURE WHERE IT BECAUSE IT WAS PROOF OF CONCEPT I GUESS THAT HE KNEW HOW TO REBUILD THE SHIPS WELL IT SHOWED THAT HE WAS DOING A DIFFERENT KIND OF MODELING HE WASN'T JUST BUILDING MODELS TO LOOK NICE TO SIT ON A MANTLE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY DOING RESEARCH HE WAS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUES AS HE WAS BUILDING THIS THIS SHIP AND SAYS WE DIDN'T KNOW VERY MUCH ABOUT HOW EGYPTIANS BILL SHIPS ESPECIALLY AT THAT TIME YOU KNOW HE REALLY WAS KIND OF LEARNING AS HE WENT AND WHAT HE WAS REALIZING WAS YOU KNOW THERE WAS NOTHING THAT WAS GOING TO TELL HIM THE PROBLEMS HE WAS GOING TO ENCOUNTER AND SO THE SHIP ITSELF WAS TELLING HIM THAT RIGHT.

AND SO MANY YEARS LATER ONE OF HIS STUDENTS ACTUALLY DID A LOT OF WORK IN EGYPT ON SOME SHIPS WERE FOUND IN THE PYRAMIDS AND WHATNOT AND SHE SAID YOU KNOW IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE HOW CLOSE HE GOT TO WHAT WE NOW KNOW RIGHT JUST BY THE SORT OF TRIAL AND ERROR PROCESS OF BUILDING MODEL AND SO THAT KIND OF ENABLED HIM TO APPROACH GEORGE BASS WHO'S A KEY FIGURE IN ALL OF THIS.

GEORGE WAS THE FIRST GUY TO DO AN UNDERWATER DIG AND HE HAD DONE A DIG IN TURKEY AKP CALEDONIA 1860 THAT WAS THE FIRST INSTANCE OF NAUTICAL ARCHAEOLOGY THAT HAD EVER BEEN COMMITTED.

AND HE WAS WORKING ON A SECOND PROJECT AND TURKEY SEVENTH CENTURY BYZANTINE ROCK AND HE WROTE AN ARTICLE FOR NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC AND TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE ARTIFACTS AND YOU KNOW THAT KIND OF STUFF AND AT THE END IT SORT OF SAID WELL I'M PARAPHRASING HERE BUT ESSENTIALLY SAID WE FOUND SOME WOULD FRAGMENTS TOO BUT WE'RE NOT REALLY SURE WE CAN LEARN MUCH FROM THAT SO MY DAD.

YOU KNOW I PROBABLY ABOUT EIGHT OR NINE MONTHS LATER HE WRITES GEORGE A LETTER AND HE SAYS YOU KNOW I SAW YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THE WOOD I ACTUALLY HAVE SOME IDEAS.

I THINK I MIGHT BE ABLE TO BUILD A MODEL BASED ON THE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE THERE AND I'D LOVE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT SOME TIME WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE.

AND GEORGE WROTE BACK MIRACULOUSLY ROLLBACK OF IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A FIELD IS YOUNG AND THERE IS NOT A LOT OF PRETENCE AROUND YET AND HE WROTE BACK AND HE SAID YEAH YOU KNOW THE NEXT TIME YOU'RE IN PHILLY.

YOU KNOW LET'S LET'S GET TOGETHER.

MY DAD WROTE BACK AND I CAN BE THERE AND THREE DAYS.

YEAH.

I THINK IT WAS A MONTH BUT HE TOOK THIS EGYPTIAN MODEL DOWN FOR THAT MEETING WITH GEORGE AND THAT WAS WHEN GEORGE BASICALLY SAID YEAH.

WE'D LOVE TO HAVE YOU BUILD A MODEL OF THE BYZANTINE ROCK.

WHAT WE NOW CALL THE AUSSIE ON IRAQ AND YOU KNOW THAT MY DAD STARTED WORKING WITH HIS TEAM AND WORKING ON A MODEL OF THAT WHICH IS ACTUALLY ON DISPLAY IN A CASTLE AND TURKEY NOW SO I WANT TO.

I DON'T WATCH THIS WHOLE STORY IS FASCINATING AND I HATE TO SKIP ANYTHING BUT I WANT TO SKIP AHEAD A LITTLE BIT TOO.

HOW HE WENT FROM MAKING MODELS TO REBUILDING AN ACTUAL SHIP HE WAS WORKING ON THIS THIS YASI AUTUMN MODEL.

THAT WAS THE SHIPWRECK IN TURKEY AND THAT WAS IN THE 1960S SO THAT TAKES US UP TO ABOUT 68 69 AND AND AROUND THAT TIME THEY FOUND A SHIP OFF THE COAST OF CYPRUS THAT TURNED OUT TO BE.

IT WAS A 20 300 YEAR OLD GREEK MERCHANT SHIP BUT WHAT IS UNUSUAL ABOUT IT WAS THE WAY THE AMPHORA WAS FILLING THE SHIP SANK.

SHE WAS CARRYING A FULL CARGO OF AND FOR ALL WHICH ARE THE BIG CLAY JARS THAT HOLD WINE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

OVER TIME THE WEIGHT OF THOSE JARS PESTICIDES OF THE HALL DOWN INTO THE INTO THE SAND ON THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN AND THAT HELP PRESERVE THE WOOD.

SO WHEN THEY'RE EXCAVATING THIS WRECK.

THEY START FINDING MORE AND MORE AND MORE WOULD THEY NEVER FOUND THAT WHICH WOULD FROM A SHIP THAT OLD AND SO BASICALLY THE DIRECTORS HAD HAD A CHOICE THEY COULD EITHER.

BRING IT UP AND PRESERVE IT OR THEY COULD REMARRIED AND THE SHIP WAS ONLY IN 90 FEET OF WATER SO THEY WERE THEY WERE AFRAID IF WE IF WE RIBERA IT'S GOING TO BE LOOTED SO THEY BRING THIS WOULD UP AND THEY START TO TO PRESERVE IT START.

WHICH IS LIKE A TWO YEAR PROCESS AND THE QUESTION WAS WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH IT.

SO MY DAD WAS IT WAS A REALLY REALLY INTERESTING STORY BECAUSE MY MOM PLAYS A KEY ROLE IN THIS MIGHT MY FATHER WAS NOT A VERY CONFRONTATIONAL PERSON HE DIDN'T WANT TO PUT ANYBODY OUT.

HE DIDN'T CAUSE ANY TROUBLE SO MY MOM HAD THE KIND OF PUSH HIM AT KEY POINTS IN ALL OF THIS AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

THERE WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE CRANIA PROJECT WAS A GUY NAMED MICHAEL CATS WHO BECAME A VERY GOOD FRIEND OF MY FATHERS AND HE WAS GIVING A LECTURER IN LANCASTER WHICH IS PROBABLY 20 MILES AWAY FROM OUR HOMETOWN AND IT WAS A MISERABLE TERRIBLE BLOWING WINDS AND YOU COULDN'T SEE THE ROAD AND YOU KNOW MY DAD WAS LIKE WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO TO THIS.

THAT'S JUST TOO DANGEROUS.

MY MOM WAS LIKE NO I THINK WE SHOULD GO WHICH IS UNUSUAL BECAUSE SHE WOULDN'T NORMALLY BEEN THE FIRST ONE TO SAY THIS IS TOO RISKY WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THIS.

THEY GO TO A LECTURER THEY HEAR ALL ABOUT THE GUARDIANSHIP MY DAD GETS REALLY REALLY EXCITED AND AFTERWARDS HE GOES UP AND HE STARTS TALKING TO MICHAEL AND THEY TALK FOR A WHILE AND THEY'RE TRYING TO CLOSE DOWN THE AUDITORIUM SO THEY GET KICKED OUT OF THERE.

THEY SAY THEIR GOODBYES ARE STARTING TO DRIVE HOME IN MY DAD JUST CAN'T STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS SHIP AND HE'S LIKE YOU KNOW.

I WISH WE WOULD HAVE HAD MORE TIME TO TALK.

MY MOM SAYS YOU KNOW THEY'RE STAYING AT SUCH AND SUCH A MOTELS YOU KNOW HIS WIFE MENTIONED THIS TO ME LET'S JUST GIVE ME A CALL AT THE COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE ASLEEP YET YOU KNOW MY DAD'S LIKE ALL WE SHOULDN'T BOTHER HIM MY MOM'S LIKE NO.

LET'S CALL SO THEY CALL AND IT TURNS OUT MICHAEL WAS LIKE I WAS JUST THINKING THE SAME THING LIKE I WAS SO THEY WENT TO SOME BAR AND STAY AT THE STATE CAPITOL 4:00 IN THE MORNING DRAWING OUT SHIPS ON NAPKINS YOU KNOW THE WHOLE BIT.

RIGHT.

AND SO MICHAEL INVITE OF MY DAD TO COME TO KOREA AND IN CYPRUS AND TO LOOK AT THE SHIP AND SEE IF HE THOUGHT HE COULD BUILD NEW REBUILD IT.

THEY BASICALLY DIDN'T HAVE ANYBODY ELSE THAT THAT COULD TAKE IT ON AND MY DAD WAS YOU KNOW AS GOOD A SHOT AT THIS AS ANYBODY.

AND SO YOU KNOW MY DAD SAID YEAH I'LL GIVE IT A TRY AND THEY WERE LIKE OK GREAT AND FORTUNATELY I WORKED OUT THE SECTIONS OF THE BOOK YOU TALK ABOUT HIM ACTUALLY PUTTING THESE ANCIENT TOGETHER I THINK ARE SOME OF THE MOST FASCINATING PARTS TO ME BECAUSE SOMEONE LATER SAID IN THE BOOK.

HE'S ABLE TO READ SHIPS HOLES LIKE NEWSPAPER.

I MEAN HE IS ABLE TO LOOK AT THIS WOULD LOOK AT TOOL MARKS AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE SHIP OR HE THOUGHT THE SHIP MAKER WAS TALKING TO HIM AND WHICH I FEEL LIKE HE'S SEEING THINGS THAT NOBODY ELSE COULD HAVE OR WOULD HAVE SEEN AT THE TIME YEAH THAT WAS REALLY KIND OF A GRADUAL PROCESS.

I MEAN HE ESPECIALLY ON THE KOREAN SHIP THE MORE HE SPENT TIME WITH THE WOOD THE MORE HE WORKED WITH THE MORE HE GOT TO KNOW IT.

YOU KNOW HE REALLY DID START TO FEEL LIKE THE ORIGINAL SHIPWRIGHT WAS TALKING TO HIM AND YOU KNOW TO THE POINT THAT AT ONE POINT HE ACTUALLY WROTE AN ESSAY WHICH WAS NEVER PUBLISHED ALTHOUGH I RELY HEAVILY ON HE ACTUALLY SORT OF IN HIS MIND CREATED THIS GUY'S A CHARACTER AND THEY WOULD THEY WOULD TALK LATE AT NIGHT AND THE CASTLE WHEN MY DAD WAS WORKING ON THE SHIP AND YOU KNOW IT REALLY WAS SORT OF A GRADUAL PROCESS AND AS A WRITER THAT THAT PART OF THE BOOK WAS ACTUALLY THE MOST CHALLENGING TO WRITE BECAUSE MY DAD WORKED PRETTY MUCH ON HIS OWN ON THAT PROJECT AND NOBODY REALLY KNEW HOW HE DID WHAT HE DID I INTERVIEWED EVERYBODY ELSE FROM THE EXPEDITION THAT WAS STILL LIVING AND I SAID NO.

DID HE EVER TELL YOU YOU KNOW THEY'RE LIKE NOW.

HE WOULD GO OFF FOR TWO DAYS AND OBVIOUSLY BE DEEP IN THOUGHT AND THEN HE'D COME BACK WITH AN IDEA AND WE TRY THAT.

IF IT DIDN'T WORK DISAPPEAR AGAIN FORTUNATELY WE MOVED TO CYPRUS FOR A YEAR MY ENTIRE FAMILY LIVED IN CYPRUS FOR A YEAR WHEN MY DAD STARTED THE PROJECT AND AND OF COURSE HE DIDN'T.

HE DIDN'T FINISH IT IN A YEAR'S TIME AND SO HE DECIDED TO STAY ON AND FINISH IT UP.

AND MY BROTHER AND I NEED TO GET BACK FOR SCHOOL SO MY MOM TOOK US BACK TO THE STATES.

MY DAD STAYED THERE AND WORK ON THIS FOR PROBABLY ABOUT ANOTHER SIX MONTHS UNTIL HE HAD BASICALLY FINISHED THE RECONSTRUCTION AND DURING THAT TIME HE WROTE MY MOM TWICE A WEEK.

AND MY MOM BEING YOU KNOW SHE WAS SECRETARY WHAT WE NOW CALL AN EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT SHE WAS VERY ORGANIZED.

SHE KEPT EVERY LETTER HE WROTE.

SHE FILED THEM.

SHE DATED THEM AS THEY WERE ALL TIME DATE STAMPED AND YOU KNOW IN ORDER AND ALL THIS AND IT REALLY PROVIDED THIS GREAT ROADMAP BECAUSE WHAT HE WAS TELLING AREAS TRYING TO SHOW HER THAT HE AND SO EVERY LETTER HAD YOU KNOW BASICALLY HE WOULD TELL HER HOW MANY FRAMES HE HAD LEFT TO DO.

HOW MANY WHOLE PLANKS YOU KNOW?

AND THEN HE WOULD DESCRIBE WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND WHEN THINGS DIDN'T.

MORE GOING WELL WHEN HE HAD A SETBACK OR WHATEVER IT WAS ALL IN THESE LETTERS AND SO IT REALLY.

IT OPENED UP HIS METHOD IN A WAY THAT I REALLY DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAD ANY ANY AWARENESS OF AND IT WAS VERY GRATIFYING TO ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY DREADING WRITING THIS CHAPTERS BEFORE I FELT THAT BOX OF LETTERS ALMOST FORTUNATE THAT YOU GUYS HAD TO LEAN SAID THAT YOU HAVE IS PROOF OF HIS THOUGHTS.

IF WE HAD STAYED.

I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE NOBODY WOULD HAVE KNOWN HOW HE DID THIS.

SO HE BUILDS THE SHIP ITS THAT THAT'S THE COVER I'M GUESSING THIS PHOTO IS HANDLING OF THE SHIP.

YEAH ON THE COVER ITS IT THAT'S MOSTLY COMPLETE IS PUTTING THE FINISHING TOUCHES ON IT THERE AND YOU CAN SEE HE WAS A MAN OF GREAT FASHION THAT WAS THE FIRST THING MY BROTHER SAID HE SAW THE COVER HIS LIKE OH MY GOD.

PANTS.

OH HE WAS A MAN WITH AND THE SHIP IS STILL ON THIS BOY PUT TOGETHER STILL THERE IN THE CASTLE IN NORTHERN WHAT IS NOW NORTHERN CYPRUS IN THE LITTLE TOWN OF KYRENIA THE TURKS CALL A GURNEY BUT IT'S IN THE CRUSADER CASTLE THERE IN THE HARBOR AND YOU CAN YOU CAN GO OUT AND SEE IT.

SO WE'RE RUNNING A LITTLE SHORT ON TIME BUT I JUST WANT TO I WANT TO BRING IT FORWARD AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

HE DID END UP COMING HERE TO COLLEGE STATION AND A FOUNDING MEMBER.

HE DID.

YEAH SO SO AFTER THE CYPRUS.

YOU KNOW HE SUCCEEDED IN CYPRUS AND GEORGE BASS WANTED TO SET UP THE INSTITUTION ARCHAEOLOGY AND THEY WOUND UP YOU KNOW TRYING TO FIND A UNIVERSITY TO AFFILIATED WITH AND SO THEY TALKED TO AT 10:00 A.M.

WANTED AT THAT TIME LIBERAL ARTS WAS KIND OF BEING BUILT OUT AND THEY WANTED TO DO A UNIQUE PROGRAM RELATED TO ANTHROPOLOGY ARCHAEOLOGY THAT KIND OF THING.

AND SO NAUTICAL WAS YOU KNOW THIS WAS THE ONLY THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO ARE DOING THIS AND SO AM VERY AGGRESSIVELY RECRUITED THEM TO COME HERE AND OF COURSE THE ONLY HANG UP WAS AT MY DAD DIDN'T HAVE A DEGREE I MEAN HE HADN'T EVEN GOTTEN A BACHELOR'S DEGREE AND SO THEY'RE LOOKING DOWN THE LIST OF YOU KNOW PROFESSORS AND IT'S LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE HAS DOCTORATES WELL HOW DO YOU.

YOU KNOW WE CAN'T LET THE STEFFI GUY TO YOU.

I MEAN THE GRADUATE STUDENT WE'LL HAVE MORE EDUCATION THAN HE DOES AND TO GEORGIA'S CREDIT.

I MEAN GEORGE DUG IN AND HE SAID LOOK WE GOT OTHER PLACES WE CAN GO IF YOU IF YOU WON'T DO THIS I MEAN HE IS ESSENTIAL TO THE PROGRAM SO YOU KNOW IF YOU IF YOU WANT TO DO IT.

THEN WE'LL GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND KIND OF AGREED TO BEND THE RULES AND THEY WENT THROUGH THIS WHOLE PROCESS WHEN I TOLD MY DAD.

YOU KNOW YOU CAN BE HONEST.

YOU KNOW STAFF BASICALLY BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE MORE THAN A LECTURER YOU KNOW YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TENURE AS BAD AS LIKE WOW I CARE ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW I DON'T BELIEVE IN TENURE AND SO BUT HE DID WIND UP BECOMING A FULL PROFESSOR AND GRADUATED AS I MEAN WHEN HE RETIRED HE BECAME AN EMERITUS AND SO YOU GUYS ARE GRATIFIED BY THAT I MEAN ADAM WAS REALLY REALLY VERY GOOD TO HIM OVER THE YEARS.

OH AND I THINK HE WAS GOOD TO YOU AND BEING HERE.

IT WAS A TWO WAY STREET.

I MEAN YOU MENTIONED AT THE TOP A LITTLE BIT.

HE WON THE MACARTHUR GENIUS GRANT SO THAT'S SOMETHING FOR A PROGRAM HE WAS HE WAS ACTUALLY IN THE THIRD ROUND OF MACARTHUR FELLOWS WAS VERY EARLY ON IN THE PROGRAM AND REALLY FUNNY STORY WAS HE WAS IN TURKEY AT THE TIME BECAUSE THEY AWARDED IT OVER THE SUMMER AND NOBODY WAS YOU KNOW YOU COULDN'T CALL TURKEY IN THOSE DAYS ARE NO CELL PHONES OR ANYTHING THE MACARTHUR FOLKS HAVE BEEN TRYING FOR DAYS AND DAYS AND DAYS TO GET THROUGH AND IT JUST SO HAPPENED THAT ONE OF THE STUDENTS WAS SICK DAY THEY CALLED IT HAPPENED TO ANSWER THE PHONE AND THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY THEY KNEW THAT ANYBODY WAS EVEN TRYING TO REACH HIM SO MY DAD FINALLY YOU KNOW THEY SET UP A TIME FROM MY DAD TO BE THERE AND WHEN THEY CALL MY DAD CAN'T REALLY HEAR WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

AND SO HE COMES OUT OF THE ROOM AND EVERYBODY IS LIKELY TO WHAT IS THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A BIG DEAL.

MY DAD'S LIKE OH IT'S REALLY NICE AT SOME SOME AWARD THEY GAVE ME OR SOMETHING.

HE HAD NO IDEA HE GETS HOME ON MY MOM HAS HAD ALL THESE ARTICLES FROM PAPERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND ALL THESE PEOPLE CALLING AND EVERYTHING AND IT WAS REALLY AMAZING YOU KNOW I DON'T THINK ANY OF US ARE REALLY HEARD OF THE MACARTHUR GRANTED THE TIME IT WAS NOT VERY WELL-KNOWN BUT YEAH THAT WAS REALLY A MOMENTOUS TIME AND I THINK THAT'S THE BEST PLACE TO LEAVE IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

THIS IS A FASCINATING STORY AND A WONDERFUL BOOK THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I APPRECIATE IT THANK YOU.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS THE MAN WHO THOUGHT LIKE A SHIP BY LAWRENCE'S STUFFY THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE TODAY I'LL SEE YOU AGAIN