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- [Allison] This week I learned how this television personality found purpose in his pain, helping others around the world.

- And that's a powerful tool, you know, when two people are at rock bottom together.

If one person is staying on top of that hill and you're shaming the person that's having a hard time, there's no way to help each other.

But for me and my crew, we were all at rock bottom, and so were our clients.

And so we'd laugh and tell jokes, and we'd walk it together.

- [Allison] Join me as I sit down with Matt Paxton.

Coming up next on "The A list."

(uplifting guitar music) (calm guitar music) Regular PBS viewers are likely familiar with the name Matt Paxton.

Over the past three years, he's been our guide to uncovering the hidden treasures in our own homes, and the precious family memories attached to them in the Emmy-nominated series "Legacy List with Matt Paxton."

- What is that?

- Is (indistinct)?

- 1993.

- Oh, no way.

- With more than 20 years of experience in downsizing, cleaning, and decluttering houses, Matt has become an expert voice in a unique field, and he's collected some remarkable stories along the way.

He spent 15 seasons on the reality show "Hoarders."

He's written a bestselling book, and he shares his wisdom regularly as a public speaker.

And now he's here in Chattanooga, sharing some helpful tips he's learned over the course of his career.

Well, Matt, welcome to "The A-List."

- Thanks for having me.

- And welcome to Chattanooga.

And I know you're here to go visit our Goodwill.

- Yes.

- And have a tight relationship with Goodwill, and I know many thrift stores.

Tell me about that.

- Well, I've spent the last 23 years of my life helping people clean out their houses.

And at the end of the day, we've learned donation is the best way to empty your house.

When you try to sell something, you get caught in the financial value.

And my job is to help you empty your house.

And we found if you focus on the emotional value of giving, it's easier to empty your house.

So, it was a natural partnership and it's great.

Now I get to go around the country helping people donate their stuff.

- It's a win-win.

- Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

- So let's talk about how you got to where you are.

Because I know about your story, I would say a lot of people, they may know you, they may know you from "Hoarders" or from "The Legacy List," but they may not know how you actually got there, which I think is, to me, the reason you're so successful at what you do.

- Thank you, and it is.

I started cleaning houses 20, almost 25 years ago.

My dad, my stepdad, and both my grandfathers died in one year, and I had to clean out their houses.

And I wasn't, I paint it like I was a hero.

I was outta outta work, I had lost my job.

I had no focus, I had no direction.

And I was just the only guy that didn't have any work in our family.

So I started cleaning out these houses.

And my grandfather had always said to me, "If something sucks, do it as a job 'cause other people will pay you to do it."

And I was cleaning this house, my dad's house, and I was depressed, I was sad, I was alone.

It was this massive house.

He was kind of a hoarder but not a hoarder.

And my dad was really young, he was 52.

And so I'm going through all this stuff and I was like, "Man, this really sucks.

This is what my grandfather was talking about."

And I just said, "I guess I'll do this some more."

And I started cleaning all these houses.

And then I just started hearing stories.

I started, like, basically a little old lady at church heard what I did and she's like, "Will you help me do my attic?"

And I was like, "Yeah, okay."

And I remember she paid me 500 bucks and I was like, "I am rich.

Like, that's the most money I'd ever received in my life."

And I just think I'm like, "That's too much."

And she's, "Oh no, Matt, this was really a joy."

She's like, "We just visited and told stories.

It was really fun."

And so literally my first paying job, I was like, "This is it.

This is what I want to do."

And I started just helping people around town clean out their attics, and all of a sudden I needed another employee.

So, for five years all I did was clean out people's houses and I would just hear their stories.

And it was usually people, someone had passed away.

So I'm dealing with that next generation, and I'm hearing all the stories about the person that just passed away.

And from a business standpoint, I learned that nobody wanted to touch the hoarders.

They were really just mammoth houses.

And I was like, "Well, I can make more on that."

And so I started going into hoarding.

And still in hoarding I really enjoyed the stories.

- Hmm.

- They're more tragic stories, but they were really fascinating stories.

And I did it for, gosh, five years.

And then this weird TV show calls me and they said, "Do you wanna be on TV?"

And I'm like, "Sure.

I guess," like, "What does that entail?"

And they're like, "Just show up and do what you do."

And I was like, "Okay."

- But also you were an economist at a college.

- Sure.

- And you were working for the Federal Reserve.

You were working in Vegas, and you too- - Is that what, I can tell that story too.

- Yeah.

I mean, I feel like that's germane to the story.

Not only of how you got where you are, but how you're so helpful to the people who have also hit rock bottom in their own lives.

- Okay, so we'll talk about- - Because I think there's some empathy there.

- The compassion side of this.

Why am I successful?

Well, I'm funny and I'm compassionate.

The funny, you're born with, the compassionate, you have to learn.

My rock bottom.

So a lot of my clients, I'm with them at rock bottom.

And that's really important to understand.

Because either someone's passed away, if I'm cleaning a downsizing house, or an hoarding situation, it's literally the lowest point in their life.

And some traumas happened.

And you have to be understanding and compassionate.

Well, I'm very open.

My 20s, the reason I didn't have a job was I got fired from a casino because I was an addictive gambler.

And you know, I went to college, I got the great job, I got my degree in economics.

I went and got a job at the Federal Reserve.

And I knew in the first hour I did not wanna work for the government.

Like, I immediately knew and I was like, "This is not gonna work."

And my mom said, "You've given him your word, you have to stay six months."

I'll never forget the lady, she told me everything I did wrong at my six-month review.

And she goes, "You did this, this, this, this."

I go, "Hey, do we go over anything that I did right?"

And she goes, "Well, we would, but we don't have anything."

And I said, "Okay."

I think we both- - Brutal.

- Agree I need to leave.

And so I left and I ended up going to Caesars Palace Casinos in Las Vegas, Nevada.

And I was an analyst or an economist for them.

Did some predictive gambling modeling for them.

And I love math, I've always loved math.

And so I was really excited to work in casinos, but I also was an addictive gambler.

And, you know, alcoholics should not be bartenders.

- And you knew this about yourself before you took that job.

- Absolutely.

That's why I took the job.

I just wanted a free.

I really just wanted a free ride to Vegas.

- Wow.

- And I got it.

And careful what you wish for, you know.

And six months later I had a bookie that I owed a lot of money to and he broke my nose 'cause I hadn't paid him.

And I let the casino that I work for know, and they said, "Yeah, we're gonna walk you out right now, you're done."

And then I had to come home.

And so back to the original story, I'm at home, a total failure.

And then my dad, my stepdad, and both my grandfathers died.

The men that I really looked up to, and that raised me.

And I was a mess of a person.

But fast forward back to, you know, now that I'm in a house with someone and they're sad, and they're really upset, and they're so embarrassed that someone has to be there to help 'em and pull 'em at a rock bottom.

And I tell 'em that story and they're like, "Oh, that's horrible, man.

My life, I didn't do anything that bad."

Especially on "Hoarders."

That story was one of the most powerful tools working with hoarders early on 'cause they thought the horror was judging them.

And I'd tell 'em that story and they'd be like, "Oh, well, I'm glad I'm able to help you out by giving you a job."

And all of a sudden you'd see this hoarder that everyone is judging, they would all of a sudden be really compassionate to me and they would give me a hug.

It wasn't me hugging them.

They were feeling bad for me.

And that's a powerful tool.

You know, when two people are at rock bottom together, if one person is standing on top of that hill and you're shaming the person that's having a hard time, there's no way to to help each other.

But for me and my crew, we were all at rock bottom and so were our clients.

And so we'd laugh and tell jokes and we'd walk it together.

(bright music) - Compassion, empathy, and humor have been critical components to Matt's success.

And his personal journey has allowed him a unique way to relate to his clients, even when they are navigating tragic circumstances.

There's a quote that progress happens at the speed of trust, and there's nothing that's more evident than you on the show "Hoarders".

Because it's not like a typical makeover show where someone says, "Oh, my kitchen is terrible.

Can you come and redo it?"

And willingly, you know, and enthusiastically want somebody to help make over their life or their space.

These people, and I will tell you there's a lot of reality shows I can binge everything.

"Hoarders" is one of those where, if I watch one episode, I need to watch like 10 shows that bring me joy because- - Yes.

- It is traumatic.

- Yes.

- It is traumatic to watch.

There is no, I mean, I'm cheering for them, but you also see it is a painful reality for them and for, I think, just humanity.

- It is, I mean, you know, hoarding is caused by trauma.

Really bad things have happened to 'em and they're looking for their happiness and self-worth in stuff.

Now, we all know TV shows are a pocket of time.

Like, I'll be with that family for between 80 to 120 hours, and you see 43 minutes of it.

And so I'll spend, I mean, a day or two talking to that family on the phone before I even arrive.

And I think one reason I have so much success with my clients on "Hoarders" is I really know them well and we're already family by the time we start cleaning.

So when you see me yelling at a hoarder, or they're yelling at me, that's because we already trust each other.

I've earned that trust.

Like, that's a straight up.

To me trust is a currency, right?

And you have to earn it, no one's gonna give it to you.

Like, you have to earn it through time.

And I'll sit, and I'll sit, and I'll sit, and I'll listen, and I hear just horrific stories, and you find out that they're really good people.

And so I try to focus on that, on that reality of who they actually were, not who they currently are.

And I think that word current is the most important part.

Hoarders are currently just a mess and it's a horrible life.

But, man, they used to be really good people.

And they're gonna be really good people, and I try to remind them of that.

And so everything I'm talking about sounds like therapy, but at the same time I'm picking up dead cats.

I'm picking up, you know, 5,000 books, there's 300 cats running around.

I mean, all that other that stuff is happening.

- Poop in the middle of the house.

- Absolutely.

I mean, my gosh, I had a lady throw her feces at me one time.

I had a lady throw a bag of cats at me one time just 'cause she was really mad.

What I learned- - Sorry, I've never had, (laughs) I've never heard the phrase to throw a bag of cats.

- Yeah.

- But you mean that literally.

- Oh yeah.

Literally it was a bag of dead cats, and she just swung it at me and hit me with it.

I was like, "What are you?"

I go, "What are you doing?

Are you trying to make me quit?"

And she's like, "Yeah."

And I go, "Yeah, I'm not gonna quit."

And she kinda looked and I realized, I go, "Everybody else quits, don't they?"

She goes, "Yeah, everybody quits."

I go, "Yeah, well, we're not quitting, we're here."

I go, "So, throw all the bags of cats you gotta do, let's get past this 'cause we're gonna clean this house."

And I think that's the reality, right?

Nobody quit on me- - Yeah.

- When I was a mess.

And my job is to not quit on these people.

Happen to do that on TV.

- Well, and the beginning of every show, and you've said it already, states that hoarding isn't just a pastime, it's a true mental illness.

- Straight up mental disorder.

One of my proudest things in my career is that when we started, everybody thought hoarding was just some weirdo 65-year-old white lady with cats.

- Hmm.

- Right?

And what we now know is it's a protected mental disorder.

People can't help it.

And there's tons of trauma, and we have all this medical research now and all this mental research on it.

And so I'm really proud that we've now made it an actual protected mental disorder.

And what that means is now cities have money, and funding, and resources to help hoarders.

And before, man, they were totally alone.

- Yeah.

Well, and also I looked at the first season to the 15th season, just to sort of qualify, and compare, and contrast.

- Yeah.

- The beginning, it says there are more than 3 million people who are hoarders, by the 15th season it says more than 19 million people.

- It's 5% of the countries affected by hoarding.

- So, did we just not know there were that many people- - We had.

- Or did it just grow, or both?

- So we had no clue.

- Okay.

- Right?

The stats of hoarding is, everyone thinks it's a bunch of old ladies, it's not.

It's actually 51% male, 49% female.

The reason we see so many women on TV is that women are willing to go through the trauma embarrassment to help their family, and men were not.

We got men as estate cleanouts, which means what?

- Yeah.

- They died.

- Right.

- They took that secret to the grave, right?

Top three careers, believe it or not, teachers, nurses, and social workers.

Which means what?

They're caregivers.

- Yeah.

- Most people, most hoarders, they hold their stuff to give it to other people because they're finding their happiness and self worth in giving.

But at the end of the day, there are definitely 5% of the country really struggles with it.

And there's really good people and it really is a heavy disorder.

And the way you said it, I love you said, "I watch, I'll stream it and then I just need a break.

I need something positive."

And that's why I created "Legacy List."

I needed something positive.

(poignant guitar music) - And "Legacy List" has certainly brought something positive to our TV screens.

Over the course of the show's four seasons, Matt has shared the joy that can come from downsizing, as he and his team work with families to honor the past and to prepare for what's to come.

"Legacy List" is really that show that everybody can relate to.

Because I know when, you know, my grandparents downsized, then my grandparents passed away, and then now my parents are in that generation where they're giving away, they're trying to give away everything while they're alive.

- Yeah.

- My mother says, my sister jokes that my mother sends her a box like every month, and it's like a surprise package of all of the junk in her room that she doesn't want- - That she didn't want.

- But she's like, "Here, you take it, and either you get rid of it."

But there's also the things they hold onto, and that's what I wanna ask you about.

Like, how have you transitioned from, you know, healing people who have a mental disease, to finding healing for people who just wanna hold onto memories?

- So, for me it was all about the stories, right?

All along the way I was just like, "Man, these are fast."

No matter how tragic they were, I had really two clients.

I had seniors for downsizing, and I had my hoarders that were everywhere.

And so I had a commitment to myself.

I said, "I'm gonna go make a positive TV show about aging Americans."

And I thought, "This will be a slam dunk."

I've already gotten an Emmy nomination for "Hoarders," people are gonna be like fighting over this show.

So then I took it out to sell it, and anyone that's in TV knows, crickets.

Right?

37 networks said no.

One network said, "Are there any attractive granddaughters that will fight over the stuff?"

And I said, "I'm sure there is, but that's not the show I want."

I was like, "I really just wanna make a positive show," and nobody wanted it.

And then a buddy said, "What about public television?"

And I said, "Is there any money in public television?"

He goes, "Absolutely not."

He goes, "There's none, but you'll get to make the show you-" - But a lot of joy, right?

- Yeah.

- And so I said, "Well, let's talk, let's find out."

And it turned out it was the perfect place, right?

And for me, I just wanted a safe space for people to tell their stories, because that's where the positivity is.

And back to the original question.

My clients on the downsizing side, they think that nobody wants their stuff.

And in fact when I wrote my book, the original thought was, "Okay, the title is gonna be 'Nobody Wants Your Stuff.'"

And what I've learned is, is not that nobody wants your stuff, is they don't want that stuff.

- Right.

- Right?

They want other things.

Nobody wants the dining room, that's the reality, right?

But they do, like, I tell everybody now, a lot of my clients are like, "My granddaughter doesn't want my China, she doesn't want any of my brown furniture."

I go, "Great, have you taken her into your closet?

'Cause she'd love half your jewelry.

She'd love all your vintage clothes.

She really wants that fur."

By the way, furs are back.

Right?

Like, there's so many cool things.

And then you gotta find out, well, what's the story?

And you say, "Why do you want that stuff?"

And then grandma starts to hear all these incredible stories about her, from her granddaughters.

And that's what I got really excited about when I started hearing all these amazing stories.

- But how do you help people create that list?

Because I know it's sort of like the both/and that you wanna preserve the memories, but a lot of times the stuff, and I'll speak for myself too, is the source of that nostalgia.

Like, when you see it, when you feel it, when you listen to it and you think, "Ah, if I give away the stuff, I'll forget the memory."

- All right- - So, how do you create the list?

- Sorry, so this title of the show is called "Legacy List."

And it's also a tool that we use.

We want people to create a legacy list.

It's five or six items that tell your family story, that tell your family history.

And I make you start it at the beginning, all right?

Before we touch an item in your house, I want you to write down the five or six most important items in your house.

And then we pause and you tell us the stories, and we record the stories or write 'em down, or somehow get that story.

And when people start this process, they think, "Oh gosh, I can't.

If I tell the story for every item in the house, it's gonna take me 20 years."

- Right.

- And it doesn't, the point of this is, is to get you to tell the four or five main stories in your family.

And what happens is you start to tell these amazing stories of two or three people in your family, and by the way, most of them are deceased.

And also we're telling the next generation of these people.

And what happens is, is you prioritize your family's story, your family's history.

And you tell the two or three main stories of those people.

And so what then happens is when we get to the garage and we're going through, you know, 20 red Folgers coffee cans filled with nails, and screws, and pennies, we don't need to stop and celebrate all that because we've already celebrated that person who helped us made who we are.

And what happens is you really start to prioritize what matters.

You really start to prioritize what matters most.

And so I tell everybody, "Before you do anything, write that legacy list out and then share it with your family."

And, believe it or not, it's proven out.

I mean, people really, really just enjoy sharing the stories.

- And we don't wanna ruin the magic of television.

But to what extent are those stories being revealed spontaneous, that you really don't know what you're gonna find when you go into those houses?

- So, on purpose, I don't know.

- Okay.

- I had a problem- - Because you have found some treasures.

- Treasures.

Now, I have a problem.

I was on the only show on TV that wasn't scripted, "Hoarders."

Right?

We just needed drama.

And by the way, when some lady randomly throws a bag of dead cats at you, that's all the drama you need, right?

So "Hoarders," nothing was scripted, we just had to keep cameras rolling, that was it.

So when it came to "Legacy List," and I was really lucky I got to create the show and I said, "Look, I don't wanna know anything."

And so Mike, the big tall, bald guy.

Mike's one of my best friends.

We've worked together for years, professionally and on TV, and Mike goes ahead and he finds a bunch of research.

He just says, "Look, there's a 100 items on this, and this, and this."

And so we do get some research ahead of time.

But I'm blind walking into it.

When you see them open the door, that's the first time I've met the family.

- That's awesome.

- And so I'll look around and I'm like, I just get excited, I get curious.

- Yeah.

- And so for me it's very a "Ted Lasso" thing, like, stay curious, right?

Like, I'm all about staying curious.

And so, now what they will do if I'm looking around the room and I'm like, "Oh, that's really cool."

And especially if it's before the legacy list, they'll be like, "You might wanna go in the other room.

There's nothing in here."

But I don't really want to know because I'm not a scripted guy.

I just need to, what gets me excited.

And that's what's cool is we'll find things and I know what you're referring to.

I mean, this past season we found a Bible from one of the girls that was killed in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, and that was the first episode.

I knew we were going.

It was Denise McNair's parents' house.

And we, late one night, Avi and I.

And by the way, Avi, I mean, I ran track against Avi in high school.

Like, that's how long I've known these guys.

And we worked together for years.

And what was really, Avi and I are in this room, and we open this bag, and we see these long, white, proper church gloves that are clearly the color of soot.

And then he starts to unroll it, and it's a bible that, in Crayola, it says Denise across the book binder.

And then he turns it over and there's blood.

In real time, we're like.

You know, we're talking to each other in our closed minds, and we're like, "Is that really what we think it is?"

And we even started looking around set to make sure a producer hadn't planted that.

And everyone behind the camera's crying.

And Avi has a seven-year-old African American daughter, and Denise was seven when she died, and Avi just lost it.

And, I mean, we didn't, the family didn't even know it was there.

I mean, Spike Lee filmed a documentary in that house, right?

Like, nobody knew that existed.

And it was just really, really powerful.

And to think that this little girl went to church that day with her Bible, and then the world happens.

And you think of what that bombing did to create the rest of the Civil Rights Movement.

I mean, soon thereafter, Dr. King comes to town, and in the same church they meet, we got to go to the rooms that they met in.

And then he ends up getting arrested, and goes to jail, and writes letters from a Birmingham jail.

And then, of course, later in our clean out, we find out that her dad was the photographer of Dr. King when he was in the jail cell.

We found all those negatives in the basement.

- Unbelievable.

- I didn't know that stuff was there.

Now, I don't spend time on the research.

I mean, they write, my team writes this big research thing, they're gonna be upset, I don't read it.

I just go in by, I just want to be curious 'cause I think that's the most natural way for me to make that show.

(bright music) - Over the course of his career, Matt has helped everyday people navigate circumstances both tragic and triumphant.

And through it all, he's learned that it's not the stuff that matters, it's the stories.

(bright music) So, speaking of legacy lists.

If you could only put one thing on your list that you would leave to your children to remember you by and your story, what would that be?

- Oof, one item.

Probably my poker chip.

I have a, when I was gambling it, like, my full wrath, I had $5 left to my name and I had a $5 Caesars Palace Chip.

And I was in Lake Tahoe at this point, and I was gambling late one night, and I was just, I was a mess.

And I had $5 left, but it was $10 to get a cab ride back to where I lived at the top of the mountain, top of Mott's Canyon.

And so I needed to win.

So I put $5 on a.

First I had to find a $5 blackjack table.

And that's where people like me go.

And so I put my last $5, I put it down, and I lost.

And this is a five-mile walk up the mountain.

And so I start walking out of the casino, and you normally go to the same cab stand, and I look at the guy and I just, I pull my pocket out, and I just kind of put my head down and he just nods his head.

And by the way, this is a cab driver that I judged the entire time I was there.

He'd take me home all the time and I thought, "What a loser, driving a cab," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I, by the way, I was a jerk in my 20s.

So I started walking up the hill, and he comes up behind me and he's like, "Get in the car, dude."

And he drives me home and he goes, I said, "I don't have any money."

He's like, "Get in the car."

He drives me home.

He goes, "Matt, stop gambling."

He's like, "It is ruining your life."

He goes, "If you are wondering, this is your low point."

He goes, "Go home, wherever you're from, and get your life back."

And I get home, it's 6:00 a.m, I've been gambling all night, and I'm basically undressing and a $5 chip falls outta my pocket.

I had $10 and I didn't know it.

If I had had that $10, I'd have kept gambling.

Now, I never gambled again after that night.

I still got that $5 chip and I love it.

It was the only thing I had in my life at one point, so.

I mean, look, I wouldn't be, that's a horrible story.

My mom is gonna be devastated that I told it.

She hates when I tell that story.

But like, you don't have now, all the great I get to do, you don't have that unless you have a lot of those really horrible experiences.

So that's what I'll tell my kids.

"You're gonna mess up, hopefully not as big as I did, but you'll be okay."

I mean, I get to help and inspire, hopefully, millions of people now, because I went through all that, and that's why I tell my hoarders, and that's why I tell my seniors, I'm like, "Man, you gotta tell all the stories, not just the good ones, 'cause if all you're telling me is good stories, we're not gonna learn anything.

You gotta tell me the awful stories up front."

And I love it, and I'm just lucky that I get to do this for a job.

- Well, and we're lucky that you took it on as a job because you're living proof that it's not the stuff that brings us joy, it's the story.

- Thank you.

I didn't have any options, let's be honest.

- Yeah.

But you had an option today- - I did.

- And we appreciate you sharing your story with me.

- And I love it.

And thank you for listening, and thank you for having me.

- Thank you, Matt.

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