>>> THIS IS A PRODUCTION OF PBS CHARLOTTE.

>>> THE CDC SAYS ONCE YOU GET THE VACCINE, RELAX, TAKE OFF YOUR MASK, BUT WHAT DOES GOVERNOR COOPER SAY?

AND DID YOU WAIT IN LINE FOR GAS THIS WEEK?

DID YOU REALLY NEED THE GAS?

WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE GAS SHORTAGE THAT MAYBE WASN'T A SHORTAGE AT ALL.

NO SHORTAGE OF NEWS AT THE GOVERNMENT SENT THEY ARE WEEK AS THE CITY COUNCIL TAKES THE SECOND LOOK AT PLANS TO CHANGE SINGLE FAMILY ZONING IN CHARLOTTE, AND THE COUNTY MANAGER SAYS SHE WON'T CHANGE THE PLAN TO HOLD BACK MILLIONS FROM CMS UNLESS THEY HAVE A PLAN TO IMPROVE THE SCHOOLS.

ALSO, RALLYING IS FINE, RIOTING IS A FELONY.

NEW RULES ON PROTESTING AND POLICE BODY CAMERA VIDEO, OKAYED BY THE STATE SENATE IN RALEIGH THIS WEEK, PLUS THE KIDS ARE BACK IN CLASS INSTEAD OF LEARNING AT HOME.

AND THE HORNETS ARE BACK IN THE PLAYOFFS INSTEAD OF WATCHING AT HOME.

FINALLY.

LOTS TO TALK ABOUT NEXT ON PBS CHARLOTTE.

♪[ MUSIC ]♪ >>> AND FROM OUR PBS CHARLOTTE STUDIOS IN HISTORIC MID WOOD, I'M JEFF SONIER AND WE'RE "OFF THE RECORD," TALKING ABOUT THE STORIES YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS WEEK AND IF YOU WATCH THE NEWS, LISTEN TO THE NEWS, YOU'LL RECOGNIZE THE NAMES AND FACES AROUND OUR VIRTUAL TABLE.

ELY PORTILLO, THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK AND MARK BECKER FROM WSOC TV AND DEDRICK RUSSELL FROM WB TV, YOU CAN JOIN THE CONVERSATION AT HOME, E-MAIL YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS TO OFFTHERECORD@WTVI.ORG.

WELL, LATE BREAKING AT THE END OF THE WEEK, THIS WEEK, CAME FROM THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL, NEWS THAT IN A CHANGE OF DIRECTION, I SUPPOSE, THEY NOW SAY IF YOU'RE FULLY VACCINATED, AND YOU WAITED THE 14 DAYS SINCE YOUR LAST SHOT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WEAR A MASK ANYMORE.

THAT KIND OF COMES AS A SURPRISE AND RAISES A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA WILL BE DOING GOING FORWARD WITH THEIR MASK REQUIREMENTS STILL IN PLACE.

ANY THOUGHTS ON THE CHANGE IN DIRECTION FROM THE CDC AND WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN RALEIGH?

>> WELL, I GUESS IT WAS INEVITABLE, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE SURPRISED THAT IT CAME RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW >> YEAH.

>> FROM THE CDC, I MEAN, LISTENING TO SOME OF THE NATIONAL EXPERTS TALKING ABOUT IT, THEIR EPIDEMIOLOGISTS SAYING WELL, WE KNEW, WE WERE HOPING WE COULD GET THERE, BUT IT PULLED THEM A LITTLE BIT -- CAUGHT THEM A LITTLE BIT BY SURPRISE.

NOW, NORTH CAROLINA IS STILL OFFICIALLY THE MASK MANDATE IS ON, SO.

>> [ LAUGHTER ] >> [ LAUGHTER ] >> SYMBOLIC, TAKING IT OFF, BUT YOU HAVE OUR PERMISSION TO TAKE IT OFF, MARK >> REALLY A WEEK OR SO SINCE THE OUTDOOR GUIDANCE WAS CHANGED.

>> UH-HUH >> AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW -- PEOPLE WERE STILL GETTING USE TO.

YOU KNOW, I RECEIVED JUST YESTERDAY, INDICATIONS FROM GYMS, DAYCARE CENTERS SAYING WE'RE GOING TO WAIT WHAT HAPPENS TO NORTH CAROLINA, WE'RE GETTING READY TO REVISE OUR POLICIES, SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, AFTER MORE THAN A YEAR OVER MASKING, YOU MIGHT SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE MASKERS, CONTINUE DOING IT.

I'M NOT SURE WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE FLIPPING THE SWITCH, I CAN'T IMAGINE IF THE STATEWIDE MASK MANDATE CHANGE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN WEARING MASKS IN GROCERY STORES, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE GOING TO ALL TAKE THEM OFF, I THINK THERE WILL BE A REALLY MAYBE AWKWARD PERIOD OF ADJUSTMENT WHERE PEOPLE ARE DOING DIFFERENT BEHAVIORS IN DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

>> YEAH.

AND THIS WEEK, MECKLENBURG COUNTY HEALTH DIRECTOR GIB BY HARRIS DID SAY SHE DOES EXPECT THE GOVERNOR AT SOME POINT TO EITHER MODIFY OR LIFT THE MANDATE, JUST WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHAT THAT -- THAT MIGHT NOT COME UNTIL NEXT WEEK, BUT SO FAR, GOVERNOR COOP'S OFFICE HAS SAID, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE CDC RECOMMENDATIONS TO INFORM WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO, BUT AS WE REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, DR. MANDY COHEN AND THE GOVERNOR ORIGINALLY SAID THEY WANTED TWO-THIRDS OF THE STATE TO BE ONE SHOT OF THE DOSE, OF THE VACCINE BEFORE THEY, YOU KNOW, LIFTED THE MASK MANDATE.

WE STILL HAVE A WAYS TO GO THERE.

I DON'T THINK THAT THEY WILL NECESSARILY WAIT THAT LONG, GIVEN THE CDC RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT LIKE YOU SAID, THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE VERY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OR COMFORT LEVELS OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO DO AND OF COURSE, THE CDC IS SAYING IF YOU AREN'T VACCINATED, TO STILL WE ARE A MASK INDOORS, BUT WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAPPENS, OF COURSE, NO ONE REALLY WILL KNOW FOR SURE.

>> YEAH, AND, YOU KNOW, THE PUSH FROM THE CDC, THEY'RE TRYING TO PUSH OUT THAT VACCINE WORKS.

>> RIGHT.

>>, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE GET THE VACCINE, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO RETURN TO A SENSE OF NORMALCY.

SO I GUESS THE CDC CITES THREE STUDIES TO SHOW HOW THE VACCINE WORK, ONE IN ISRAEL AND TWO IN THE UNITED STATES, ISRAEL, THEY SAY IT HAS A 97 -- THE VACCINE HAS A 97% EFFECTIVE RATE FOR A SYMPTOMATIC COVID AND 86% EFFECTIVE RATE FOR ASYMPTOMATIC, SO I GUESS THE CDC IS TRYING TO SAY, HEY, IF YOU DO HAVE VACCINE HESITANCY, THIS IS WHAT YOU DO, THIS IS WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU DO GET THE VACCINE.

THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WEAR YOUR MASK INSIDE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE NUMBER ONE GOAL THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO PUSH OUT, THAT HEY, SCIENCE WORKS.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT USING MASKING IS KIND OF A INSPIRATION OR A WAY TO BUILD MOMENTUM TOWARDS VACCINE, ESPECIALLY AMONG FOLKS RELUCTANT OR HESITANT TO TAKE THE VACCINE, IT'S PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA, I MEAN, NOT EVERYBODY MAYBE IS COMFORTABLE WITH THE VACCINE, IF YOU HAVEN'T HAD IT YET.

BUT IF IT MEANS BEING ALLOWED TO TAKE OFF YOUR MASK, MAYBE THAT'S THE THING THAT PUSHES YOU OVER THE EDGE OR GETS YOU DOWN TO THE CLINIC AND GETS THE NEEDLE IN YOUR ARM, THAT MAKES IT A GOOD THING.

THE ONLY COMPLICATING THING IS CDC IS RECOMMENDING ONE THING AND WE HAVE MASK MANDATES HERE, YOU'D ASK THE MANDATES TO FOLLOW THE CDC RECOMMENDATIONS.

BUT IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A MIXED MESSAGING RIGHT NOW, I SUPPOSE AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT FROM THE BEGINNING HERE, WHAT'S REQUIRED, VERSUS WHAT'S RECOMMENDED.

VERSUS WHAT'S COMMON SENSE, I SUPPOSE.

>> AND I I'M ANXIOUS TO SEE WHAT INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES DO, BECAUSE THERE MAY BE SOME ESTABLISHMENTS THAT HAVE SOME REQUIREMENT THERE OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, SO WE MAY SEE SOME VERY DIFFERENT OUTCOMES, OR WE MIGHT NOT.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, WE SEE HOW THAT GOES >> KEEP IN MIND, YEAH, KEEP IN MIND, THE MASK MANDATES ARE STILL IN EFFECT.

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AIRPLANES, THINGS LIKE THAT, SO WE STILL HAVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND THAT MARK, DON'T THROW AWAY YOUR MASKS JUST YET, ESPECIALLY IF YOU WANT TO BE TRAVELING ANY TIME SOON >> YEAH, I TOOK A MEDIA LAW COURSE IN JOURNALISM SCHOOL, MANY, MANY YEARS AGO, ONE THING I REMEMBER GETTING RIGHT WAS SAYING THERE'S NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.

COMING TO MY HOUSE, AND IF I DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU SAY, I CAN ASK YOU TO LEAVE.

AND THAT'S I THINK A BIG MISUNDERSTANDING WITH THIS WHOLE MASK THING, I HAVE A BUSINESS AND I DECIDE YOU NEED TO WEAR A MASK, NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE, IT'S AN EXTENSION OF THAT AND I CAN ASK YOU TO LEAVE.

BUT THERE WILL BE BATTLES, I SUSPECT BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY THE MASK MANDATE IS LIFTED BUT IF I HAVE, YOU KNOW, A STORE AND I WANT PAEM -- PEOPLE TO MASK UP.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE WHILE TO SORT THIS OUT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> YEAH, BABY STEPS BACK TO NORMALCY, THE STATE IS LOOKING AT WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO KEEP REQUIRING KIDS TO WEAR MASKS IN SCHOOL, THE PFIZER VACCINE WAS OKAYED FOR KIDS AGES 12-15 THIS WEEK, KIDS IN SCHOOL IN NORTH CAROLINA HAVE TO WEAR A MASK AND THEY'RE TAKING A SECOND LOOK AT THAT REQUIREMENT RIGHT NOW, AS WE ALL AS A SOCIETY MOVE TOWARDS HOPEFULLY NORMAL AGAIN.

WE'LL KEEP AN EYE ON THAT AS WE DO EACH WEEK, I SUPPOSE.

THIS WEEK WAS DIFFERENT.

GAS SHORTAGE.

I MENTIONED BEFORE WE STARTED THE SHOW TONIGHT, I DROVE PAST A GAS STATION THIS WEEK, THAT HAD GAS.

YOU KNOW, KIND OF RESISTED THE URGE, HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS REAL AND HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS GENERATED BY SOCIAL MEDIA AND THEN, COVERAGE OF IT BY REGULAR MEDIA?

ANY THOUGHTS.

>> AND I'LL GUESS ABOUT 10%, 85%, 5%.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN.

I THINK THAT IT WAS REAL.

IN THE SHORT-TERM THING.

BUT I THINK A LOT OF IT JUST GENERATED BY THAT MENTALITY, OH, MY GOODNESS, THERE'S A SHORTAGE, I NEED TO GO DO THIS, WHETHER I NEED TO OR NOT.

BECAUSE WE'RE WITHIN, YOU KNOW, A FEW DAYS, I THINK THE GAS IS BACK, AND NOW, NOT EVERYWHERE, BUT THE CRISIS -- IT IS BEHIND US >> AND NOW, THIS MORNING'S GAS BUDDY BEING ONE OF THE MAN MAN TRACKERS OUT THERE, PEOPLE PANIC BOUGHT FUEL IN NORTH CAROLINA, IT'S GOING TO TAKE NOW IN HIS ESTIMATE A WEEK OR SO FOR THINGS TO SETTLE DOWN TOTALLY TO NORMAL BECAUSE WITH SO MANY GAS STATIONS EMPTY, IT WILL TAKE A WHILE TO REFILL, WHAT WE EMPTIED FROM OUR PANIC BUYING.

SO IT'S A TOUGH SITUATION BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS A REAL THING.

THE PIPELINE WAS OUT, THE POSSIBLE OF SHORTAGES AND IN THE MEDIA, UP TO THE BE ABLE TO PRESENT PEOPLE WITH THAT FACT AND SAY, HEY, HERE'S WHAT'S GOING ON.

IT'S REAL.

BUT THEN THERE ARE ALWAYS ACCUSATIONS OF SENSATIONALISM, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU GENERATING THE CRISIS, AND I THINK IT'S A FINE LINE, BUT PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT THE MEDIA SHOULDN'T REPORT ON IT AT ALL, WELL, IT IS A REAL THING THAT HAPPENED, THE PIPELINE DID STOP WORKING.

HOW PEOPLE REACT TO IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN ALWAYS CONTROL >> RIGHT.

>> RIGHT >> AND THEN PEOPLE HAVE LIVES TO LIVE, THIS IS HAPPENING AS PEOPLE ARE GOING BACK TO WORK.

SO THEREFORE, YOU KNOW, IF I HEAR THAT THERE'S A POSSIBILITY OF THE GAS SHORTAGE, I HAVE TO GET TO WORK, WHEN I'VE BEEN OFF FOR A COUPLE OF MONTH, I DO NOT WANT TO CALL MY BOSS AND SAY, HEY, MY LIGHT IS ON, AND I DON'T HAVE GAS.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LAWN CARE COMPANIES WHO ARE IN THE MIDST OF LANDSCAPING.

AND THEY NEED GAS SO THAT THEIR PEOPLE CAN STILL WORK AND GET A PAYCHECK.

SO I GUESS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S PANIC AND THERE'S PREPARATION THAT PEOPLE ARE PLANNING, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO GET STUCK IN THE MIDDLE BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T -- DIDN'T KNOW HOW LONG THIS WOULD GO.

SO THEREFORE, THEY WERE PLANNING AHEAD BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR EMPLOYEES HAVE FOOD ON THE TABLE, LIGHTS ON AND A ROOF OVER TOP OF THEIR HEADS.

>> YEAH, YOU DID SEE A TRICKLE-DOWN EFFECT, YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD THE DELIVERY DRIVERS, SITTING OUT ON THE SIDELINES BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAVE ENOUGH GAS TO DO THE DELIVERY ROUTES, UBER DRIVER OR, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THESE FOOD DELIVERY DRIVERS OR, YOU KNOW, TRUCK DRIVERS, YOU KNOW, I READ ONE STORY WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE PRICE GOUGING ISSUE POTENTIALLY WAS $10 A GALLON.

AND ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS OVER 600 COMPLAINTS OF PRICE GOUGING IF THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS RELATED TO THE GAS SHORTAGE.

BUT, YEAH, IT CERTAINLY -- WHATEVER CAUSED THE SHORTAGE, YOU KNOW, AND THAT COULD BE A MYRIAD OF FACTORS, I GUESS, IT CERTAINLY HAS HAD SOME TRICKLE DOWN EFFECTS ON A LOT OF THE DIFFERENT FACETS HERE.

AND CHARLOTTE SEEMED TO BE MAYBE STRANGELY DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED LOOKING AT THE GAS BUDDY NUMBERS, 70, 80% SOMETIMES ALMOST OF STATIONS HERE WERE JUST OUT OF GAS.

SO NOT REALLY SURE WHY CHARLOTTE SPECIFICALLY BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING >> YEAH, AND I GUESS -- I THINK THAT THE BIGGER PICTURE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WITHIN THE -- THIS IS A WAKEUP CALL FOR OUR ENERGY INDUSTRY FOR THE CYBER ATTACK, THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO IF THIS HAPPENED THIS TIME, WHEN WILL IT HAPPEN AGAIN?

YOU KNOW, MEDIA REPORTS ARE SHOWING THAT THEY PAID $5 MILLION TO THESE HACKERS, SO IF THAT'S CYBER ATTACK CAN DISRUPT US LIKE THIS, THEN WE NEED TO BE MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE THINGS SHORE UP THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

BUT THAT'S THE -- THAT'S THE BIRTH -- BIGGER STORY.

WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN AGAIN >> WHEN THE GOVERNOR DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY, THERE WAS CREDENCE THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM, A POTENTIAL SHORTAGE.

IT RAISES THE GENERAL QUESTION, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, ELY IS RIGHT, YOU CAN'T IGNORE IT IF YOU'RE THE MEDIA, YOU HAVE TO COVER THE FACTS BUT I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY OF US LOCALLY, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE NATIONAL MEDIA, WHEN THEY COVER THIS SOCIAL MEDIA REACTION TO IT ALL, THAT'S KIND OF -- THAT GETS INTO I THINK A GRAY AREA, IN TERMS OF COVERING THE SHORTAGE OR THE POTENTIAL SHORTAGE IS ONE THING, COVERING THE SOCIAL MEDIA REACTION TO IT, THE OVERREACTION TO IT, KIND OF AGAIN, I THINK, FEEDS INTO THAT WHOLE FRENZY AND MAYBE THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION FOR ANOTHER DAY.

BUT IT DOES KIND OF GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF, YOU KNOW, HOW SOCIAL MEDIA BECOMES THE STORY SOMETIMES, BEYOND THE ACTUAL FACTS OF THE STORY.

>> YEAH, WELL -- THAT'S -- THAT -- I HAVE A PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE NERVE THERE ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA.

BECAUSE IT IS UNFILTERED.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY VERIFIED OR VERIFIABLE, WHAT YOU SEE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU TAKE AWAY THE TV STATIONS AND I HATE TO SAY THIS AND THE RADIO STATIONS BECAUSE I'M IN THE BUSINESS AND THE NEWSPAPER, YOU KNOW, WHAT?

YOU'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE THAT PANIC, I THINK, PERCENTAGES, I THINK HUGE PERCENTAGES OF THIS IS SOCIAL MEDIA DRIVEN.

POST ON FACEBOOK, OR INSTAGRAM, AND TWITTER AND THERE'S THE RUN.

I DON'T KNOW.

>> MAYBE I'M GETTING US AS THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA TOO MUCH CREDIT HERE, MAYBE IT IS SOCIAL MEDIA THAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY GETTING THEIR INFORMATION FROM.

IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

BUT MAYBE THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION FOR ANOTHER DAY.

WE'VE GOT OTHER TOPICS TO TACKLE HERE, SO I WANT TO KEEP MOVING, IF THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

HEY, 2040 PLAN, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS, COUNCIL SPENT A COUPLE OF HOURS TALKING ABOUT THAT THIS WEEK.

I WAS KIND OF WATCHING ON TWITTER, AND ASHLEY, YOU WERE WATCHING IN REALTIME, THAT WAS NO FUN AS AN OBSERVER, BUT IT ALSO KIND OF POINTS OUT THE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION AMONG COUNCIL MEMBERS ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

>> YEAH, SO THIS DISCUSSION WAS ESSENTIALLY MEANT TO SAY, OKAY, COUNCIL, YOU'VE READ THE PLAN, YOU'VE HEARD FROM YOUR CONSTITUENTS, YOU'VE PARTICIPATED IN ALL OF THESE TOWN HALL MEETINGS, WHAT ARE YOUR OUTSTANDING CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS PLAN?

AND, YOU KNOW, OVER THE COURSE OF THE 7 HOUR COUNCIL MEETING, NOT ALL OF WHICH WAS DEVOTED TO 2040, BUT MOST OF WHICH WAS, THE COUNCIL KIND OF WENT OVER ALL OF THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE STILL CONCERNED WITH.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS IN TOTAL MORE THAN 50 ITEMS THAT CAME OUT OF IT.

YOU KNOW, 25 OF WHICH KIND OF SORT OF ADVANCED TO THE NEXT ROUND, WHICH IS STAFF IS GOING TO GO BACK AND GET MORE INFORMATION, ANSWER SOME OF THEIR QUESTIONS AND THEN THIS COMING MONDAY, COUNCIL WILL DO STRAW VOTES ON THOSE ITEMS.

AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE HEARD ABOUT CAME UP AGAIN, THE EXCLUSION OR I'M SORRY THE SINGLE FAMILY ZONING, YOU KNOW, TAIWO JAIYEOBA THE CITY PLANNING DIRECTOR, DID SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THINKING ABOUT MODIFYING IT FROM ALL RESIDENTIAL LOTS TO ALL PLACE TYPES, WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS IS STILL UP FOR DEBATE.

AND HONESTLY, IT SEEMS LIKE COUNCIL IS VERY DIVIDED ON A LOT OF THESE VERY BIG KIND OF TOPICS, INCLUDING THAT, COMMUNITY BENEFIT AGREEMENT, AND ANTI-DISPLACEMENT GROUP, ALL OF THESE TOPICS THAT HAVE EMERGED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

SO I THINK THAT THE PLAN STILL HAS A LONG WAY TO GO AND THEN WE'VE GOT THE UNIFIED DEVELOPMENT ORDINANCE FOLLOWING THIS, WHICH IS I WOULD ARGUE, AN EVENT MORE IMPORTANT DOCUMENT, REGULATORY POLICY THAT IS GOING TO BE IN PLAY IN THE CITY.

SO MONDAY I'M SURE WILL BE ANOTHER MARATHON MEETING OVER WHAT KIND OF REMAINS, BUT THERE'S STILL JUST A LOT OF NOT CONSENSUS, I WOULD SAY ON THIS PLAN.

>> SEEING A LITTLE SOFTENING, ELY, ON THIS WHOLE MULTIMREGS, DUPLEX, TRIPLEX VERSUS SINGLE FAMILY ISSUE, I GUESS?

>> AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN QUESTIONS THAT COUNCIL WILL BE WRESTLING WITH IS WHETHER TO KEEP THE POLICY OR TWEAK THE POLICY OR THROW OUT THE TRIPLEXES AND DUPLEXES THROUGHOUT THE CITY, 2.1, A LOT OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT POLICY 2.1, SO IF YOU ARE THE KIND OF PERSON WHO WATCHES CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS, THAT'S WHAT THAT IS ABOUT.

BUT I THINK IT WAS INTERESTING THE WEEK, WE SAW MAYOR LYLES IN PARTICULAR, REALLY CRYSTALLIZE WHAT THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT.

IT'S NEVER JUST ABOUT LAND USE.

IN AMERICA, WHERE WE LIVE AND WHAT WE BUILD IS ALWAYS WRAPPED UP IN RACE, INCOME, ALL OF THESE THORNY QUESTIONS.

AND, YOU KNOW, MAYOR LYLES BASICALLY SAID, WE NEED TO DEFINE WHAT IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN CHARLOTTE?

BECAUSE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING, A LOT OF TIMES, THAT'S CONFLATED, AND I THINK THAT REALLY DID A GOOD JOB OF LAYING OUT ON THE TABLE, WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT DUPLEXES AND TRIPLEX, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT VISIONS OF HOW WE LIVE AND BUILD OUR FUTURE, THAT'S WHY IT'S SO EMOTIONAL AND CONTENTIOUS, FRANKLY, IF IT WERE A FEW DUPLEXES, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD HIT THE LEVEL WE HAVE SEEN >> THE THING THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT WOULD BE A VERY MATERIAL SHIFT IN THINKING AND HOW DEVELOPMENT AND LAND USE, AND THE WAY WE SEE OUR CITY GROWING, IT IS A MATERIAL SHIFT AND I THINK THAT'S WHY LIKE -- VERY EMOTIONAL AND EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE A CERTAIN VISION FOR THEIR FUTURE, BUT THAT VISION IS NOT THE SAME FOR EVERYONE, I THINK THAT KIND OF GETS TO THE CORE OF THE DEBATE.

>> 2040.

>> [ LAUGHTER ] >> IT MIGHT TAKE UNTIL 2040 TO GET THIS THING PASSED.

>> [ LAUGHTER ] YEAH, THIS IS -- THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT'S NOT GOING TO AWAY ANY TIME SOON AND I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, I MEAN, ONE SIZE FITS ALL MEANS ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ANYONE PERFECTLY, THAT'S THE PROBLEM, YOU'RE TRYING TO ZONE FOR THE CITY AND LOOK AT THE CITY'S FUTURE AS A WHOLE, BUT EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT VERSION OF WHAT IS SUCCESS AND THE DREAM IS, I SUPPOSE >> YOU'VE GOT -- YOU'VE GOT THREE DIFFERENT COALITIONS THAT HAVE KIND OF FORMED AS A RESULT OF THE 2040 PLAN.

THERE'S A NONPROFIT, AND A AFFORDABLE HOUSING GROUP THAT'S GOING TO COME OUT AND SAY WE'RE IN SUPPORT OF IT.

ANOTHER GROUP THAT'S ADVOCATED FOR COMMUNITY BENEFIT AGREEMENTS OVER 60 NEIGHBORHOOD GROUPS.

AND THEN, DID REAL ESTATE AND BUILDING COALITION LAUNCHED THEIR OWN GROUP, THAT'S PUSHING FOR DELAYING THE 2040 VOTE AND SAYING YOU NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT OUR PRIORITIES ARE AND THIS NEEDS MORE TIME.

SO IT'S INTERESTING TO SEE THAT THREE SEPARATE GROUPS FORP AS A RESULT OF THIS -- FORM AS A RESULT OF THIS >> MORE 7 HOURS MEETINGS TO COME, OVER THE NEXT COUPLE F WEEKS AND WE'LL HAVE SOME STRAW VOTES IN A COUPLE OF WEEK.

ON THE COUNTY SIDE, THE CMS VERSUS, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S CMS VERSUS THE COUNTY COMMISSION, BUT DEDRICK, IT FEELS LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW WITH WHAT LOOKS LIKE A MAJORITY OF MECKLENBURG COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND THE COUNTY MANAGER READY TO STEP IN AND KEEP MONEY FROM CMS UNTIL THEY COME UP WITH A PLAN TO IMPROVE PERFORMANCE IN THE SCHOOL, RIGHT?

>> YES, THINGS ARE GETTING KIND OF SPICY.

WITH THIS BUDGET.

YOU KNOW?

YOU HAVE COUNTY MANAGER DENA DIORIO, NOT PUSHING BACK AT COUNTY COMMISSIONERS SUSAN RODRIGUEZ-MCDOWELL.

SHE HAD ISSUE WITH THE COUNTY MANAGER'S PROPOSAL TO WITH HOLD $56 MILLION FROM CMS AND THE COMMISSIONER SAID THAT SHE WAS JUST SURPRISED THEY JUST BLEW HER OUT OF THE WATER THAT THE COUNTY MANAGER WOULD DO THIS.

AND THE COUNTY MANAGER PUSHED BACK AND SAID, HEY, I'M DOING WHAT YOU GUYS TOLD ME TO DO.

AND DON'T BE -- YOU SHOULD BE SURPRISED BY THIS.

AND I WILL HOLD YOU TO THE FIRE UNTIL THE END.

SO THIS WEEK, WE HAD A PUBLIC HEARING WHERE PEOPLE CAME OUT AND SAID THAT HEY, DO NOT WITHDRAW THE MONEY AND YOU HAD PEOPLE WHO SAID, THAT, YES, [ LAUGHTER ] HOLD BACK THE MONEY, YEAH, LOCAL BLACK MINISTERS SAYING HOLD BACK THE MONEY UNTIL YOU GIVE US A PLAN, AND THE COMMISSIONER IS SAYING THAT -- RODRIGUEZ-MCDOWELL IS SAYING IF YOU HOLD BACK THE MONEY, THAT WE'RE NOT BEING TRUE PARTNERS WITH CMS.

AND IN ORDER TO GET ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT, THE ANSWER IS NOT HOLDING BACK THE MONEY, SO YOU HAVE PEOPLE ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE FENCE, BUT I BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WHO AGREE WITH THE COUNTY MANAGER, DENA DIORIO, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW CMS WILL BOUNCE BACK.

BUT MY THING IS, I'M ASKING AROUND AND ASKING PEOPLE, DO YOU KNOW THE PLAN?

[ LAUGHTER ] WHAT IS THE PLAN FOR THE 42 SCHOOLS?

AND I THINK THAT CMS NEEDS TO VERBALIZE THAT.

AND, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY THAT GOES TO THOSE 42 SCHOOL, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT ELEVATOR PITCH AND SAY, HEY, WHAT IS THE PLAN TO TURN YOUR SCHOOL AROUND?

AND IF THEY DON'T KNOW THE PLAN OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT THE SCHOOL, THEN I BELIEVE THERE'S A PROBLEM THERE >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT, THE COUNTY IS NOT ASKING FOR IMMEDIATE -- >> RIGHT, RIGHT >> IMMEDIATE IMPROVEMENT, THEY'RE SAYING SHOW US HOW TO GET THERE.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A LOT TO ASK IN EXCHANGE FOR THE FUNDING.

AND THE SCHOOL IS SAYING YOU'RE NOT OUR OVERSEER, YOU'RE OUR PARTNER.

AND THE COUNTY COMMISSION DOES SEE THEMSELVES IN A POSITION TO INFLUENCE WHAT THE BOARD DOES AND HOW THE SCHOOL BOARD, YOU KNOW, IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR, YOU KNOW, FOR THE FAILURES IF YOU WANT TO CALL THEM THAT, THE LITERAL FAILURES IN THE CLASSROOM >> AND, YOU KNOW, AND IN DOING THIS STORY AND TALKING THE EDUCATORS, THEY'RE SAYING, HEY, DON'T HOLD -- YOU CAN HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE, BUT WE HAVE TO HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE, TOO, COUNTY, BECAUSE WE HAVE KIDS WHO COME TO US WHOSE PARENTS CAN'T AFFORD HOUSING.

WE HAVE STUDENTS WHOSE PARENTS CAN'T FIND JOBS.

YOU KNOW?

SO COUNTY, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP WITH THESE SOCIAL AIL ILLS SO WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, SO IF WE HAVE TO SHOW US A PLAN, YOU HAVE TO SHOW US A PLAN, TOO, ON HOW WE'RE GOING TO HELP OUR STUDENTS, AND ONE MORE THING, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO CMS.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT SCHOOL DISTRICTS ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THEY ARE STILL STRUGGLING HOW TO EDUCATE AND HOW TO GET ACADEMIC SUCCESS FOR BLACK AND BROWN KIDS, SO THIS IS JUST NOT UNIQUE TO CMS, THIS IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE NATION, AND THE NORMAL THING, THE CMS SCHOOL BOARD, CMS SCHOOL BOARD, THEY'RE THE MOST ACCOUNTABLE PEOPLE IN THE WHOLE LAND.

YOU KNOW?

BECAUSE YOU HAVE CMS, YOU HAVE SCHOOL BOARDS, YOU HAVE TEST SCORES, YOU HAVE THIS, YOU HAVE THAT, AND THAT, SO, YOU KNOW, HEY, THEY ARE -- THEY ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

>> I WANT TO FINISH UP THIS WEEK TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN RALEIGH, LAST WEEK, WE TALKED ABOUT A POLICE REFORM BILL THAT WOULD REQUIRE COPS TO INTERVENE WHEN TOO MUCH FORCE IS BEING USED IN AN ARREST OR SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES.

NOW, NOW GETTING PROTEST REFORM.

NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T PROTEST BUT DEFINING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROTESTING AND RIOTING, AND ALSO, ASSIGNING PENALTIES FOR THAT.

>> WELL, THE GIVE AND TAKE IT SOUNDS LIKE >> YEAH.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I YOU, ONE WHO WAS COVERING THE PROTESTS LAST SUMMER, I'M SURE MANY HERE WERE, YOU KNOW, THEY OFTEN STARTED JUST GREAT AND THEN, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY WOULD THROW A BOTTLE TOWARDS THE POLICE AND THEN, YOU KNOW, IT WAS GAME ON.

AND THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PROTEST AND A RIOT.

AND THE BILL ATTEMPTS TO DELINEATE THAT BY MAKING RIOTING A FELONY, DAMAGE, YOU KNOW, TO PROPERTY, IS A MISDEMEANOR, THEY WANT TO ELEVATE THAT AND MAKE IT -- MAKE IT A FELONY, WHEN IT'S OVER A CERTAIN DOLLAR FIGURE AND SO FORTH.

WHICH I THINK THAT AGAIN IS A -- IS A NOBLE EFFORT.

BUT ALSO, IT'S THE SUPREME COURT'S THING, WE KNOW OBSCENITY WHEN WE SEE IT, WE KNOW A RIOT WHEN WE SEE IT.

AND THE TRY TO DEFINE THAT IN A COURT OF LAW >> YEAH >> IS TRICKY, AND THAT'S WHEN THE BILL ATTEMPT TO DO IS TO MAKE LEGAL BOUNDARIES HERE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SURPRISING AND I THINK THAT IT WILL MOVE FORWARD AND NOBODY WANTS A RIOT >> THE TRADE-OFF WAS THEY CLEARLY SAID YOU CAN PROTEST, THAT ALLOWS THEM -- AND THEY ALSO GAVE FOLKS IN LIGHT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ELIZABETH CITY, A CHANGE IN THE RULES OF -- POTENTIAL CHANGE IN THE RULES OF RELEASING OF BODY CAMERA VIDEO THAT WOULD MAKE IT PUBLIC MUCH QUICKER SO YOU SEE BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE, GIVING AND TAKING, MAYBE FOR, YOU KNOW, TO GET SOMETHING THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE, NOT A PERFECT BILL, I SUPPOSE, BUT IT DID HAVE A UNANIMOUS SUPPORT IN THE SENATE AND THE SUPPORT OF THE SPEAKER ON THE HOUSE SIDE, HEADING TOWARDS LAW AT SOME POINT >> IT'S INTERESTING THERE WAS SOME PUSHBACK FROM ADVOCATES THERE SAYING THAT THEY THINK THIS IS DESIGNED TO INTIMIDATE BOTH PEACEFUL PROTESTERS FROM COMING OUT, AND I GUESS I'M GLAD THAT THEY WAS AN AMENDMENT MADE TO MAKE CLEAR THAT PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATORS CAN'T BE CONVICTED OF RIOTING OFFENSES ONLY BASED ON PHYSICALLY NEAR THE EVIDENCE, SO I THINK THAT THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT, YOU, WE KNOW -- WE'VE ALL BEEN THERE WHEN PEOPLE ARE PEACEFUL PROTESTING, AND THINGS GO AWRY AND THEN THE POLICE CANNOT, YOU KNOW, DECIDE WHO WAS A PART OF IT AND WHO WASN'T A PART OIFT SO YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT IS OUT THERE, SO THAT THE PEOPLE CAN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, WHO WAS A PEACEFUL PROTESTER AND WHO WAS A RIOTER.

>> THE VOTE WAS UNANIMOUS, SO I THINK THAT WE SEE KIND OF A MEETING OF THE MINDS HERE.

WE'RE OUT OF TIME, A QUICK MENTION THAT HORNETS ARE BACK IN THE PLAYOFF, FIRST TIME IN FIVE YEAR, IF YOU'RE A HORNETS FAN OR JUST A BASKETBALL FAN IN GENERAL, THAT'S GOOD NEWS.

OUT OF TIME.

THANKS FOR JOINING US, EVERYBODY, GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK TOGETHER AND AT HOME, THANKS FOR JOINING US AT HOME, WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME ON "OFF THE RECORD."

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>>> A PRODUCTION OF PBS CHARLOTTE.