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It is important to remember that there is not a small difference between how people feel about the economy and the actual commercial activity happening.

Welcome again to the most widely watched and the longest running dialog on Carolina business policy and public affairs.

I am Chris William.

Happy spring, almost happy summer.

We are seemingly days away from high school graduation, summer vacations, beach trips, etc.

and all of those are certainly feel good things for sure.

But many don't feel good about the economy.

And if you look at the data and talk to an economist.

Oh, and by the way, watch what we will in a moment.

You will get the sense that by the numbers, the economy is not necessarily bad.

We'll start right there in our dialog and later on.

The Splendid Festival USA is a premiere performing arts festival held annually in Charleston.

For now, a generation, joining us again will be its general Director, Doctor Mena Mark Hanna.

Stay with us.

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And, Martin Marietta, a leading provider of natural resource-based building materials, providing the foundation on which our communities improve and grow.

On this edition of Carolina Business Review Dr. Nicholas J. Hill.

Dean of the school of business Claflin Univesity Mark Vitner of Piedmont Crescent Capital And special guest Mena Mark Hanna, General Director, Spoleto Festival USA fe Welcome back to our program.

We are glad to see you and glad to have you here.

So let's let's start our dialog.

Mark Vitner and Doctor Nicholas Hill join us.

Gentlemen, good to see you both.

Mark, I just I didn't mention you by name on the open to the program, but here you are, well known economist in the Carolinas.

We're going to start with you.

Is there a large delta, a large gap between how people feel about the economy and the actual numbers?

Well, know the latest data.

There's about the largest gap between how people feel about the economy and what the economic numbers say about the economy than I've ever seen.

Consumer confidence has plunged, really in the last four months.

And, it it's come down as the trade rhetoric heated up and then it just plummeted after the, Liberation Day announcement.

And, but the economic data looks pretty solid.

We did have a 3/10 percent drop in GDP, but but, final demand grew at a 3% annual rate, and the employment numbers are still looking pretty solid in the Carolinas.

We're kind of going counter to the rest of the country.

The country seems to be losing momentum.

The Carolinas have actually gained momentum.

And some of that has come as as folks have, taken a second look at Florida and, we've seen an outmigration from Florida, and it's really reflected in South Carolina, which added nearly as many people in 2024 as North Carolina did.

So Doctor Hill will bring you into the dialog.

I know you're not an economist, Nicholas, but gosh, you know a little something about business.

As the dean of this school down at Claflin, I mean, what's the sense you just heard?

Mark, do you have that same feeling, or is there something different that you see?

No, I think that, Mark is right on with that.

I think when you start to look at uncertainty in the market, consumers start to have less confidence about, long term expenditures and things like that.

However, one of the things that we're seeing with the migration data and migration patterns, Carolina's North as well as south are positioned in a good pocket of the United States to where, those from the north want to come to this area because of the weather and the landscape and those who are, like in Florida, who are trying to avoid some of the, natural disasters and things like that, they're coming up.

So you see this inward migration of people to this area, that's helping sustain some of the economic, GDP that's going on within these, two states as well.

So, so the dichotomy, Mark, let me come back to you of the dichotomy between feeling and actual data, empirical evidence and just how people feeling kind of jiggy about things does.

One begat the other.

And in this case will will these negative, uncertain, maybe even doomsday feelings will they end up being will we talk ourselves into a slowdown?

Well, that's a concern.

I've done a lot of research with consumer confidence.

And, the the bottom line is that the consumer confidence index has not been a particularly good predictor of consumer behavior, at least in, in the short term.

Over the long term, it's a very good predictor.

And I think the fed and their latest meeting of the at the May FOMC meeting, Chairman Powell said that, the fed was going to wait and see how the data actually played themselves out into the, before they, they would, choose whether or not to cut interest rates.

Would you look at the consumer, half of this data, you see this huge spike in inflation expectations, which goes along with the the tariff announcements.

That could be self-fulfilling if consumers Russia had and pull purchases forward and that could actually pull inflation higher.

Now we're already.

Seeing that used car prices, which jumped 5% over the last month.

But let me, expand out a little bit, Nicholas, and we'll we'll go in a different direction here.

About five years ago now, almost exactly five years ago on this program, we were in the midst of Covid.

And it's hard to believe when you say it out loud like that.

But but we had a panel of college presidents, university presidents.

One of them was Doctor Elizabeth Davis from Furman University.

And she predicted at that time, you know, we were all kind of reeling from this, this new reality.

We were living in to be remote.

And she predicted, on this program, she said that there will definitely be some consolidations in schools.

It will be a disrupter of college and universities of higher education and finance.

And lo and behold, here we are five years later.

We've seen some of that, particularly in the last two weeks.

We have seen Limestone University in Gaffney, South Carolina.

We've seen Saint Andrews University in Laurinburg, North Carolina, both closed down.

And I know this puts you in a particular position and another school.

Claflin in this case, but what's your sense, do you think, that there are more consolidations, more school closings coming?

So I really believe that, you know, when you start to look at, some of your, smaller institutions, they are a driving force behind their operation budget, becomes enrollment.

And so then we look at the trend of how college enrollment is going across the country, and it's on a decline.

So just by just example that if you start to lose students, as they start to come in, you're going to have less operating revenue from tuition, that you can use to run your university.

So some tough decisions are going to have to kind of be made.

And I really believe when you think about Covid, right after Covid, a lot of students were thinking about, I need to take time off before I go to, college.

So that's even contributing to the decrease, quote unquote, enrollment.

But one thing I would let, the viewers just know is that the value proposition for education still, is is the same.

Is that the more education you have, the higher your salary income.

That's been the trend and that's the data.

There are more degrees that you have, the more, income you can demand when you come to the job market.

Mark, notwithstanding, the Harvard and the Columbia's in the yales and the expanded, issues that go on it, those higher ed, the Ivies in this case, what are the alarm bells ringing in higher ed?

Well, I think demographics is one of them, where the, the number of people that are coming of college age is not growing.

Also, the clampdown on immigration, a lot of schools, not the few schools that close to the Carolinas, but a lot of schools have become very dependent upon.

Foreign.

Students, which pay full price tuition.

Here in the Carolinas, we have well, we were focused on, on the schools that are closing, two of the more successful private universities, both Ellen and High Point, which have really marketed themselves very well in the northeast.

Just about every time that I would go up to, to visit in, in the, in New England and, in the Mid-Atlantic states, I run into people who had come down to the Carolinas and they they, they typically visited Elan High Point in Wake Forest on their, on their trip down here.

And it came away very impressed.

And if you look at the enrollment of those schools, they've really, that's that's one of the outlets that they've looked at.

I think that's that's what schools are going to have to do, in this new environment is they're going to have to look to pull in students from other parts of the country.

Okay.

All right, gentlemen, stay with us.

We're going to meet our guests in just a moment.

Before we do that coming up on this program.

He is the new secretary of Commerce for North Carolina.

His name is Lee.

Lily.

Secretary Lily will be a guest on this program.

Also, Scout Motors made a pretty big splash.

You remember the old International Harvester brand and the scout that was an SUV was actually a utility vehicle.

It's the new scout, and it's the new scout motors that made a put a big stake in the ground, both literally and economically, in the state of South Carolina.

That CEO Scott Keough will be our guest on this program as well.

Spoleto Festival USA is in now its 49th year in the Lowcountry.

It's an internationally recognized as America's premier performing arts festival, for sure, but it's meant to foster cultural exchange between American and European artists traditions, among other things.

It runs for 17 days and nights, starting Memorial Day weekend in Charleston's historic theaters, churches, outdoor venues.

With about 150 performances, it features a wide range of disciplines from opera, theater, dance, symphonic, chamber, choral, jazz, folk, even.

It's iconically Charleston.

Joining us now from Spoleto in Charleston is the general director, Doctor Mina, Mark Hanna.

Mr. Director, welcome to the program.

It's nice to see you again, Mina.

Thank you for having me.

Happy to be here.

So we have to clear this up.

And I know you hear this all the time.

Is it Spoleto or Spoleto?

I say stiletto, I think if you're speaking in Italian, you can say Spoleto, but I like Spoleto.

Okay, well.

Thank you.

We'll we'll go with that.

But, Doctor Hanna.

Thank you.

Welcome again to the program.

There was on our program, we had, the tourism chiefs from North and South Carolina, both Duane Parrish and Whit Tuttle.

And they surprisingly said that, so far in 2025, the tourism numbers have been down soft, I think, is the term that they used.

When you look at that, when you see that, is that something you can identify with?

When you look at the numbers from Spoleto early on, do you see that or do you see something different?

Yeah.

You know, if you track our ticket sales, and, and what we are projected for, for our ticket sales, you definitely see that we started out with our public on sale in February.

Extremely strong actually.

We had the strongest single day of ticket sales since 2016.

And then, you know, through March and April, this is sort of an inverse parabolic curve.

It's kind of like a bell curve.

An inverse bell curve.

You see it slow down and, and we are seeing right now a ticket sales slowdown that is probably attributed to, a soft tourism market.

So, I think we're seeing some of the effects of that.

You know, one of the things that the tourism chief said that they saw that foreign visits were down, that probably is not going to be a surprise to anyone, given kind of the tough trade talk that's gone back and forth across, developed countries at least.

Is, is does does that foreign do you see that that same thing when it comes to foreign visitors, do you track it on that kind of granularity?

We do track foreign visitors, people coming in from other countries.

You we have started to see after the pandemic, more of split of sales, the index toward local tri county, regional sales rather than national and international sales.

So I'd say before 2020 it was 60% national international, 40% local on average.

Now it's closer to 5050.

And tri county would be Charleston, Berkeley, and Georgia.

And and Dorchester.

Oh, okay.

All right.

I'm going to open up to, to our panel.

Doctor Hill, please take a shot here.

Yeah.

Lynn, we thank you for, the festival.

I enjoyed every time I've been down there to, participate.

I am, interested to know, you know, kind of.

Where do you see it kind of growing and going?

What is your vision for, the festival to grow?

Thank you so much for that question.

You know, next year is the 50th festival, which is certainly a threshold moment for Spoleto and 2026, our 50th festival, 2027, our 50th anniversary.

We will be celebrating this legacy institution.

Over those two seasons, I see Spoleto really becoming, an institution that spills out into the streets that's, got this catalytic impact on the city, for those 17 days is, an artistic capital of the world for those 17 days that draws the world into Charleston.

But at the same time understands its local community.

I mean, you know, sensibilities.

Founding in 1977, Charleston's artistic ecosystem has flourished.

What it was it was a sort of bold experiment in the beginning, and it shared one single foundation, one that supports musicians, dancers, composers, educators, institutions large and small, and that creative network woven across neighborhoods, generations and disciplines.

I think that has helped shaped Charleston's identity on the world stage.

So it's it's it's really that community, that dialog between local and international.

Mark.

How nice to make your acquaintance here.

I, first time I went to school, it was 25 years ago or so, and, I was, coming down there as part of an event that Scott of the South Carolina Economic Development Association was, was running it.

And, it seemed like a great opportunity to promote the the Charleston area in South Carolina more broadly.

Do you see a.

Lot of that evolving into, more of an economic engine for Charleston, maybe even, becoming as large a of a that is, South by Southwest is in terms of, of, the coordinating with business.

I love that comparison point.

You know, Spoleto has been incredibly impactful for the for the Charleston community.

Since its founding in 1977.

You know, it's had an annual average economic impact of around 40 to 50 million.

And since its founding, it's it's it's done well over $1 billion in economic impact, $1.4 billion, actually.

So you're looking at something that has really been an economic engine for Charleston, especially, I think in the late 70s, 80s and into 90s.

Now Charleston has really grown.

And I think that part of its flourishing artistic ecosystem, its flourishing cultural ecosystem, is due to what Spoleto has done.

But there are so much more to do.

I think that once you get this kind of impact that I, that I had discussed earlier, something that really spills out into the streets, something that really has this, feeling that everywhere you go on every single street corner, something is happening during these 17 days and you have an incredible focus.

You can really increase the visibility not just of Charleston, but of an institution like Spoleto.

And we have some of the, we have some of the framework in place between Gelato and Piccolo Spoleto, our sister festival.

That's community oriented.

I think what I really think we can do is make a case for the arts not being peripheral, that the arts are connected.

They remind us that we belong to each other, and that there is still something beautiful and possible to build to me that has an incredible potential for economic impact and economic growth on the city.

So building Spoleto into something that is already the premier performing arts festival, the country.

But as an artist, the capital of the world is about really dreaming and thinking big and looking at some of our, looking at some of our peers in the industry and understanding and learning from them and taking some of those lessons.

I don't think of stilettos peers as opera companies or theater companies or ballet companies or symphonies.

I think there are there are similarities there.

There are some, reverberations with those types of institutions.

I think that as peers are more things like the Edinburgh Festival or things like the frieze Art fair, or things like South by Southwest or Telluride.

These events that really focus economic impact and capital, in, in a specific period of time.

General Director Hannah, we hear a lot about federal funding in arts and certainly been numerous stories about the good and the bad that, you know, the controlling of costs, but also some some of the problems that come when we do stop funding things like arts and education.

Do you feel that particularly and when I mean that, do you feel, do you feel that emotionally?

Maybe.

But you also feels that the federal funding dollars are not flowing to particular programs that might be in support of Spoleto, but things that are ancillary to Spoleto?

I will answer that question very specifically about federal funding dollars.

And I think that, you know, it is it is a difficult moment for the cultural field, generally speaking, in the arts sector.

I think we have to be able to rise to that challenge.

And I think we have to think very creatively about how we can diversify, where we get our money from and diversify our revenue stream so that we have ways to be more financially sustainable.

And I think that that at the forefront of, of all of our collective imaginations, of our public imagination is the understanding that that the arts should be an act of public imagination.

You know, it's more than just a celebration.

I think about some of the words that Joe Riley said, that, the former mayor of Charleston, that the arts can serve as an example, an inspiration to a community in its search for justice, equality, humanity and excellence.

So, yeah, we're certainly in an age of political division and cultural cynicism.

But to me, I always want to put the arts at the forefront of people's minds, to help us, to remind us how to listen, how to ask questions about rushing to answers, how to sit in dissonance and find meaning, and how they give us tools to be citizens and not just consumers.

And Doctor Hill.

I'm going to put you in a difficult position right now.

Which one of the events is your favorite to go to in it to?

That's.

Yeah, that's that's really asking.

You know, that's a hard question.

And, and we, you know, splutter is, is is an incredible entity.

We're, we're talking about 125 performances, nearly 150 events within a 17 day period.

And, you know, that's that's like a whole concert series of a performing arts center, from from September to June.

It's like, pushed into a 17 day period.

So you really have to come and feel it and experience it.

I am extremely excited about Patti Smith this year.

I think, you know, having performances at the system, generally speaking, is is just, such a special experience.

It's sort of like our own red rocks.

You're sitting there under a canopy of Spanish moss amidst these mighty oak trees that have been there for hundreds of years.

You're looking at Randolph Hall, you hear the cicadas in the background.

It's all lit up.

And, you know, last year we had Jason Isbell perform by himself in an acoustic show.

This year we have Patti Smith, Lucinda Williams, Mavis Staples, Corinne Bailey Rae, Valerie June, Jeff Tweedy, Band of Horses, MJ Letterman, Patterson Hood, the list goes on and on.

And the idea behind that sister and series is about that kind of revenue diversification.

It's a way for Spoleto to be more commercial, to build a bigger tent, to bring people into the festival, and also show them that the value proposition is not just at the system, but can also be at the Dock Street Theater and chamber music can also be at the Gilliard with opera can also be at the satellite theater with theater and ballet.

So the idea there is bring people into the system and have them experience that magic, that transformative power, and then hopefully see them go to other things during the festival period.

We've got about, we've got about a minute and a half left.

And I want to get this question in, the idea that you've been there now as general director for four years, seems like, sorry to say it this way, but this gig is going to stick for you, and, and great reviews about your leadership down there, doctor Hannah.

What?

Where do you want to see this festival in ten years?

What's the goal?

Great question.

I think what Spoleto does that is unique is that it produces art across multiple disciplines, and produces art across multiple disciplines, and creates it in a way, that when you come to the festival, it's probably the first time you see it.

So, for example, when we did Omar, it was a world premiere.

It went to San Francisco, LA, Boston, Chapel Hill, so on and so forth.

After that.

And that model of us being a producer of art is always going to be intrinsic to what beloved does.

But what I want to see Spoleto do in the next ten years is quite straightforward.

We need to celebrate our legacy for the 50th festival in 2026 and 2027.

We need to build public value through that period as, as, as we engage with our community.

We're doing that right now with our early childhood education program with in collaboration with Wolf Trap and the South Carolina Arts Commission.

And then we need to find other sort of product lines to build and create a more sustainable, effective, greater festival that is more of a festival and less of of of a performing arts happening.

I think there are really creative ways that can bring attention together.

I'm sorry.

I wish I didn't have to cut you off because I know you're short sighted about it and that wasn't fair to ask you that in a minute and a half.

Please come back.

You probably more, but thank you for being on our program.

Thank you, thank you.

Good to see you, gentlemen.

Thank you for watching.

Until next week I'm Chris William, goodnight.

- [Announcer] Gratefully acknowledging support by, Martin Marietta, Truliant Federal Credit Union, Foundation for the Carolinas, Sonoco, Blue Cross Blue Shield of South Carolina, High Point University, and by viewers like you.

Thank you.

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