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- There's a lot of speculation and anticipation about some seminal event that we will call the great reopening of this economy.

I'm Chris William, and welcome again to the most widely watched and longest running program on Carolina business policy and public affairs seen each and every week for the last three decades across the Carolinas.

Thank you for supporting the dialogue.

We'll start with our panel on just that.

When is the great reopening of the economy or has it already happened?

Stay with us, starts in a moment.

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(bright music) On this edition of Carolina Business Review Christopher Chung of the economic development partnership of North Carolina.

Susie Shannon, from the South Carolina Council on competitiveness, and Donald Thompson of Walk West - And welcome again to our program.

We're glad to welcome Donald, Susie, Chris, thank you all for joining us.

Susie, you're gonna you're gonna get the first pitch for better or for worse.

We have, We've been talking about now.

I think a lot of speculation, a lot of expectation around what the reopening of the economy looks like this, this great reopening, and we've almost maybe missed it has kind of the economy already reopened?

- Chris I would think so.

I mean, certainly when you, when you look at certain segments or industry sectors, at least across South Carolina, we never really closed, right?

We're at heavy and advanced manufacturing and process logistics.

And you know, over the past year we stayed at home and we bought stuff and we had to keep freight moving across our logistics corridors.

So I think to a great extent, we never really closed.

I think we're beginning to see an uptick, certainly in other segments like leisure or hospitality, tourism.

I think you heard director Perishon on, not that long ago.

And so we're gonna, I think begin to see some of the segments rebound much more quickly than quickly than others as we begin more moving more into that grand reopening process.

You're talking about - Donald, Christopher, what do you think?

- So one of the things for me is I'm in the digital space, right?

As a marketer, right?

As, as a leader so we were able to leverage, right?

the technology to keep things moving throughout the pandemic, but not so much for a lot of our clients.

And so we saw significant amounts of pain for folks in our organization and our clients, if you will that were in that retail and hospitality sector.

But we are seeing things coming back.

We are seeing people now thinking talking and working towards that new future.

And one of the conversations we're in a lot is what does that hybrid workforce look like?

What is in-office versus that zoom culture?

What's that blend because a lot of folks have gotten now accustom to working from home, working remotely.

But we miss that team dynamic that cultural shift.

And we're looking at how do we blend those two worlds in the future?

- Yeah and then remember Chris, I mean we we went a long time there in those maybe those first weeks and months of the pandemic last year when yeah there were a lot of different businesses that, that closed everyone is trying to flatten the curve.

If we all remember that phase of the pandemic and certainly we are a long ways off from those very restrictive days across the entire country.

I know governor Fluper likes to use the metaphor dimmer switch.

That's really the approach North Carolina's taken.

It's allowed the state to kind of Modulate the different abilities of businesses to open various capacities.

I think that's all been very helpful to balance both the public health response as well as obviously allowing the economic machine to continue employing people cranking out the kinds of things that would want the economy to do.

But as I said, we're a long ways off from those early days of the pandemic.

There's so much more optimism now with more and more people getting those vaccines that like you said that grand reopening is imminent.

If it we're not already in the midst of it right now - You know, Donald, I wanna go back to something you said to Susie, I'd love to hear your comments on that.

Donald at the beginning of this week you know, the shock obviously, we were in shock, we're trying to figure out what was gonna happen on what the next way forward and not to be insensitive to is you talked about the pain of your clients and maybe even some of your colleagues but the sense that we were all or nothing that we're gonna be virtual and that's gonna be the new model or, oh, wait, we're not going to be or there's some hybrid, you know, we tend to live in these, these areas of, of these, sometimes these extremes but will, will getting back to normal is obviously going to have some type of virtual element to it.

But how much Of a virtual element and what does the new workspace look like?

- Yeah, I think that the last year, year and a half is gonna have a significant impact on the way corporate cultures are driven going forward.

You can't now ask people or expect your top talent to now sit in a workspace that is not conducive to their lifestyle.

So because of the pandemic we've gotten data that says people can be productive with more flexible work schedules.

They can be productive working at home.

And now we can integrate the in-person meetings for that cultural uplift for that mentorship and leadership development.

But at the same time, give people the ability to use all these tools in a way that suits them.

I don't think the employers are gonna have that choice anymore.

The top talent is gonna demand that there's work flexibility and environment, and I think we're ready for it.

I think it's going to be a good thing.

- Does it keep Susie, does it keep South Carolina competitive does it keep your constituents competitive?

- Yeah I think so you know, a lot of last year within the business and economic development world was almost like a tinker lab, right?

I mean, we were already beginning to drift pre pandemic to more heavy reliance on technology development, technology efficiencies and certainly more remote workers as more and more advanced speed broadband was deployed.

And so I think what you've seen is an acceleration happening before we were you know, already drifting in that direction.

And now we were just sort of moving at it at ludicrous speed to quote one of my favorite movies.

- Chris, Tom Barkin, president chief executive officer of the Richmond branch of the Federal Reserve has said on this program.

And he said several places that there is a quote unquote a skills mismatch coming out of just Donald's comments and Susie's comments this skills mismatch is even more exacerbated now because people are unmotivated.

Some people are unmotivated to not take that Federal support and still say at home.

- Is there a different answer to come at this idea of putting together folks that need jobs want jobs with those jobs that need to be filled?

- I don't think the solution has changed much.

I mean, this was certainly a topic of conversation among the economic development industry even before the pandemic, right?

This, this whether it's manufacturing, construction, healthcare, you just had a lot of these different industries that were finding it very difficult to attract and retain the types of skilled workers that every industry depends on.

And again, that was that was not unique to the pandemic period but that's something that we saw leading up to that the pandemic, I think has exacerbated that challenge, as you said, whether that's because of the availability of unemployment payments at a federal state level, or frankly I think much more people just genuinely concerned about going back to the workplace if they're a frontline essential worker it's, you gotta think about your own health.

You gotta think about your loved one's health.

That makes it a very personal decision.

Not to mention if kids are not able to go to school or can't go to their daycare for some of those parents they've had to stay on the sidelines not get back to the workforce.

So you've got all these things that are making it even more difficult for employers to find workers.

I still think the solution though is still about understanding what businesses feel like they will need in those skillsets and aligning the educational institutions K through 12 and higher ed to produce the types of talent and sort skills that employers are demanding and think that they'll be demanding five to 10 years from now.

- Donald, how do you characterize that?

You're a creative thinker.

- I'd like to extend on what Chris was describing in terms of that that matching, right?

In that matching has to do with that university infrastructure.

But it also has the ability to up-skill workers when they have to do a career transition, right?

And so one of the things that we're seeing is what kinds of opportunities do people have for example, right?

is social media analyst.

Well, that doesn't require a four year degree.

You can get certifications, you can get retrained.

And so we have to make sure that we provide an infrastructure for people where they may have one career that is moving towards a dead end.

What are the skills they have that can be reapplied, right?

in a growing industry where they don't have to uproot their family but they can take the skills they have and take them to the next level.

And I think it's within our capacity to do it especially when we look at the power of community colleges certificate programs, all the things that are in place.

We just gotta talk to each other a little bit better.

- As I was gonna say, I mean and I think the pandemic has shone the light on where companies and employers may be moving towards things like increasing use of automation, right?

I think the pandemic has shown the risk of being too dependent on essentially a human labor force.

If you can automate some of those processes use technology to displace a human worker that certainly makes you less vulnerable next time there's this type of public health crisis.

And so what do you do to Donald's point about some of those individuals who no longer can go back to those industries or those businesses because they have automated or switched over to some sort of technology.

How do you upscale those individuals to go into higher demands fields, where there is a need for again human workers to use that kind of a funny term, I guess.

- Is Susie, Donald just talked about the community colleges and South Carolina technical colleges, North Carolina community colleges have typically been the leadership or leaders in that area of trying to do just what we're talking about.

Can they do it?

Do they need more money?

Is the situation of what this public health care or this public health crisis caused?

Will, the unintended consequences be that these community colleges and technical colleges will be able to do this better.

What do you think, what do you think is holding back that the matching of the, of the talent with the jobs?

- Well, I'm sure our colleges and our universities would always say more, more more resources, more funding more money is always appreciated and and highly encouraged and embraced.

And certainly the Carolina's two year systems are a model for the rest of the country, right?

Whether it's a degree, associate degree training certificate training, rapid training in South Carolina on the South Carolina side, it's called ready SC program.

Applied learning obviously is a huge component.

And we're seeing more and more companies clamor for on the job training coupled with that fixed content learning.

So, so I think that communication closing that divide between the business community and the educational community there, that you know that the colleges and universities understand that their training focus today needs to actually be on the jobs of tomorrow right?

And, and I think it's the business community and those inside of that those concentric circles that understand best what those emerging trends are and where we're moving with respect, for instance to machine learning and automation - Cat can't have a successful business without having infrastructure in place.

One of the things that is bubbled to the top over the last 12 to 14 months has been the last mile of broadband connectivity to the most rural areas.

Donald, is this a foregone conclusion?

Now that it's, it's just about funding it's just about finding the money but everyone seems to be looking in the same direction and singing out of the same page of the hymn, handle on this.

- I think that's, I would agree with that, right?

Because I think that access to high-speed internet and that infrastructure opens up a different learning capacity different communication capacity, a different access to what's going on in your environment and how you can fit into that environment.

It's no different than not having access to your, it, you and I, we get in the car we're two or three minutes away from any kind of food service store that we need.

When you were part of a rural community you have to make sure that everything is done well well in advance, when you bring broadband it increases the knowledge base, number one and the types of jobs that young people can go after and train for.

We're in a digital economy So that means when you have a lack of broadband that means the young people that are coming up don't become naturally naturally skilled as quick in the digital tools.

And so you actually increase the opportunity divide unintentionally when all we have to do is make that access available so that now we can create more of those folks that can take advantage of the digital economy.

I think it's smart I think it makes sense.

And I think it's just the right thing to do.

- Susie, do you think South Carolina, the general the assembly, the state house, if you will, do they have the the will to find those dollars and to make that, that, that last mile connected?

- Yeah, I, I think the political will is there.

And, and, and luckily for the state, we actually moved in into the pandemic fallout and, you know moving into that big grand reopening much more better much more financially in a, in a better financial posture, if you will.

And so monies have already been allocated and and it's sent over into the designated agency.

There's additional monies that are tracking through the legislature, you know, at, at one time you know, in economic development prospect world, you know.

You could build a nice spec building out in the middle of a rural area and expect the companies to, to be induced, to come in.

You know, over the last few years there's been more of a shift to companies wanting to site to where the workers already are.

And, you know, getting to Donald's point it's, it's about character of life and quality of life.

And broadband now is essential to that good character of life, just like electricity and, you know basic phone service and proximity to a grocery store.

- Chris in, in North Carolina and in South Carolina, both Raleigh and Columbia and the general assemblies have been made a priority to the idea of business liability and especially unique to COVID that businesses did not want to have to face lawsuits based on COVID liability.

Where is North Carolina with that clearly they've taken it seriously, South Carolina has.

But do you feel like there are ample protections now for businesses?

- Well, I think that probably would depend on the business that you asked, but generally speaking if the fact that we don't hear about this from the companies that we interact with on the front line of doing economic development suggests that North Carolina is probably doing something right in this regard companies don't see North Carolina's liability regulations is unduly onerous.

Obviously no one has ever had to navigate a global pandemic in this lifetime of public policy making.

So I think folks are sort of learning about where those limits should be, should be appropriately drawn.

But like I said, it's not something that comes up when we're out there talking to companies either about locating in North Carolina or if they're already here expanding here.

And so the fact that we don't hear about it, which suggests that this is not an issue that has been causing companies any pause about investing in creating jobs in North Carolina.

And again, that's good, right?

You know, companies look at this universe of issues everything from regulatory climate to taxation, to quality of life, to skilled workforce availability and as well as we can be doing on any of those different dimensions it's just going to increase our probability of successfully growing the economy through business and investment.

- Donald, North Carolina's, new secretary relatively new secretary of commerce.

Secretary Michelle Sanders said that she publicly said that she wanted to create a more in and I'm going to read this a more inclusive economy.

What is more important diversity or inclusive inclusiveness?

- Well, that's kind of like asking me, right?

What's more important about money, right?

Heads or tails, right?

You need both in order for it to actually be a spendable form of currency.

And so I think the biggest thing is that people lump things together.

So when you think about diversity people then think about racial equity but diversity equity inclusion has to do with generational diversity diversity of thought, it has to do with neuro-diversity.

There's a lot of elements in the kaleidoscope of DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Those things aligning together allow companies to be stronger in building the culture they want.

And quite frankly, when you think about 67% of workers look at the diversity equity inclusion numbers of a company before they decide to go work with a firm.

Now we're talking about the impact level of DEI.

So when you think about diversity, equity, inclusion it can't be just through the lens of the moral outcry, which matters but for business owners or people in the general assemblies to understand take notice and act, how do the numbers align with the outcome objectives that people want?

Give you a case in point, Google just announced a, a plant in Durham that they're gonna build, right?

Thousand new jobs.

One of the reasons they selected North Carolina, one of the reasons I selected Durham in particular is because of the access to a multicultural group of employees that they could recruit from.

So when you think about economic development, when you think about corporate health and resiliency, diversity, equity, inclusion just can't be ignored and you can look at it from any angle you want but we've got to address it.

And we've got to think about it.

- Donald, let me, let me use your words.

And I think I know the answer to this question but I need to hear you articulate this and Chris Susie, please jump in on this as well.

Donald, you compare the killing of George Floyd.

Yes your tragic event, of course.

But you said it was an earthquake in our society.

Interesting turn of phrase, does that passion moment does that tragedy become, does it become institutionalized?

And that the moment that it represented, not just the tragedy, the personal tragedy but how do you stay?

how do you keep that passion to make sure that that it, diversity, equity and inclusion doesn't become just another check box or a silo within an organization?

- Yeah, I appreciate the question very much because that catalyst moment was so impactful because it was on video.

And because we all experienced seeing that and it got to the core of human decency and see a lot of times when you think about racial inequity, social justice people their experience might not allow them to empathize because of their background or perspective but we saw a black man murdered on live television and that can't be ignored.

So now to your question about whether it has sustained power in terms of the CEOs and leaders and people in government my optimistic side says, yes.

I'm talking to people every day that want to move from why DEI matters to how do we do it and link it with our business strategy.

So we make it a board level imperative so that it stays sticky.

We link it to economic development of our cities.

So it stays sticky.

We put it into our school infrastructure.

So we're talking about disability and inclusion someone that's blind, low vision.

So our websites are better.

We'd link diversity, equity inclusion to the things we all touch each and every day.

And that's the way it stays in the fabric of what we're doing.

- Susie.

- Yeah, you know Donald talked about the impact level, right?

I recently, a couple of years ago.

So this was, you know, you know, pre the tragedy of George Floyd, interviewing a young candidate you know, young isn't chronologically young and also young in their career.

And it, you know, their questions back to me as their interviewer, wasn't so much wrapped around you know, what are my fringe benefits?

What am I going to be paid?

You know, can I work from home on Fridays?

It, it was asking about the corporate official posture not just the culture inside, you know, informally inside of the organizational team, but actually the, you know the official posture on certain social issues.

So that seemed to weigh heavily into, you know.

A candidates decision, whether or not to come and work for, you know us or anyone else.

- And then I'll add, you know as two, two perspectives, as an employer ourselves at the EPNC, we've got about 65 employees.

So the sample size is still pretty small but as we've had a hiring needs over the past year we've certainly seen that question come up from candidates about what are our DEI policies what are our initiatives as an organization?

So that definitely corroborates Donald's point about how especially younger generations I would say are a lot more attuned to this even than, than millennials.

And certainly a gen X or like myself.

It's just a lot more important of a priority as they decide where to, where to go to work.

And then of course, from an economic development standpoint we've certainly seen companies put a lot more premium on issues around a diverse and inclusive workplace a diverse workforce issues around sustainability which of course tie into issues like environmental justice.

I think there's clearly a focus on these things.

And I know that, you know, Chris, your point was you don't want this to be a check box, right?

I think most people can sense when there's an authentic desire to make progress on these.

And they're also gonna sense when people were just doing this so that they can check the box and say, yeah we, we we've been diverse, we've been inclusive.

Let's move on to the next issue.

And so I think both as employers, as well as as States trying to attract business investment.

Yeah, these are things that we have to really believe in and authentically pursue.

Otherwise I think it's gonna be very apparent that we are just trying to check the box and that's not really how we want to make progress as a society on these issues.

- So Donald, you know, back to the deck, back to the point that if it is widely being accepted by a certain demographic, younger demographic maybe, maybe other demographics and those that traditionally dig their heels in for change because maybe they're afraid maybe they truly don't believe it's the best thing.

Do you find barriers?

And we've got about, we've got less than a minute.

Do you find that those barriers are breaking down that people are genuinely open-minded or becoming open-minded or approaching being open-minded?

- Well, there's always barriers when someone doesn't understand, but are being forced to learn something new, right?

That's a typical challenge of learning, right?

And that's whether it's DEI or others, but to make the point very distinctly , yes, there are barriers but there is enough momentum developing that those barriers will be broken through.

And what people have to decide is what side of history they want to be on and how they wanna win in the marketplace.

There's two things, there's the historical the moralistic component, but then how do you wanna win in the marketplace?

And that's a real decision that companies have to make.

And what candidates are looking for is not that all of a sudden your company is DEI ready, but what is your game plan?

How are you intentionally moving forward?

You may just start with broadening your recruiting base, right?

And you're not gonna change tomorrow but what are the things you're doing to build that momentum over time?

People appreciate that.

- Donald, that, that'll be the last word.

Thank you for that.

Christopher always nice to see you, thanks for joining us.

Susie, welcome to the dialogue.

We hope you'll come back and don't scare you off too easily I hope.

- Thanks for having me.

- Thank you.

Thank you all for joining us.

Hope your weekend is good.

Thank you for watching our program.

If you have any questions or comments carolinabusinessreview.org Until next week I am Chris Williams, happy weekend.

Goodnight.

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