I'm Mary Mohouse, psychotherapist at Insight Counseling Duth, where I specialize in anxiety and in providing support to individuals affected by cancer and their loved ones.

I'm your host for our episode tonight on mental health and healthy boundaries.

The success of this program is very dependent on you, the viewer.

So, please call in your questions or send them in to our email address at askpbsnorth.org.

Our panelists this evening include Rachel Linder from Northern Waters Clinic, Cheryl Champion from Insight Counseling and Dr.

Corey Duffrey um from Rooted Psychology.

Our phone volunteers are standing by to answer your calls.

And now on to tonight's program on mental health and healthy boundaries.

We hear boundaries so much right now in um it's it's all over social media and Tik Tok and it just there's so much out there about boundaries.

And so I'm so excited about this program tonight to hear from three professionals about the professional opinion on what boundaries are, what boundaries aren't.

Um and not in a in a tick- tock sort of way.

All right.

So we're gonna start off with you.

Um, Rachel, when we talk about boundaries, what are we actually talking about?

What are boundaries and what are boundaries not?

Yeah, I think that's really important to talk about because there are so many discussions on TikTok and social media and things about what boundaries are and what boundaries are not and when to set boundaries and whatever.

I think a boundary is anything that it's any limit that you place on yourself, on others, on your environment in order to be able to be a healthier version of yourself, right?

It can be emotional, mental, physical, sexual, um really in any realm.

Yeah.

So, it's really as simple as that.

And I think that what I would say to bound what is a boundary not is it's not selfishness first of all is because we often you know are given that especially in what we do but in general anyone is given you know we're given the um the message a lot that we should put others before ourselves and that we shouldn't set boundaries right or that it's selfish to think about ourselves over others um or to advocate for our own needs.

Yeah.

So, great.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Anything to add about that with what what are boundaries and what are they not?

I think it's really influenced by gender.

Um women are told to take care of everybody else first and you know my grandma stood up and served 18 kids and my grandfather and didn't eat till everybody was done.

You know, now there's a woman who needed boundaries.

But I think women in general just sort of are told to take care of other people and it's harder for women to say no.

Um because we want to make sure everybody's taken care of and doing fine and then we worry about ourselves.

Yes.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When I think about boundaries, I think about um that we are saying something that we will or we won't do um rather than saying what we want other people to do.

When we're if we're thinking about what other people are doing, then that's more of a request.

But if you're thinking about what are you going to do or not do, then you have control over that.

Yeah.

And you can actually say, okay, I'm going to do um the dishes tonight, but I'm not going to do them tomorrow night because I'll be working late or something like that.

And then another important component of a of a good healthy boundary is that there is a consequence.

meaning not like you're going to punish other people but you're going to say if xyz doesn't happen then I am going to do this in order to protect my space right setting this limit right so if uh you don't do the dishes then I'm the dishes are just not going to be done because I am not going to do them right so it's sort of these natural consequences great and I like that that differentiation between boundaries are not telling you what telling others what to do is telling what I am going to do or or tolerate.

And so I think that's a good distinction sometimes.

I think that gets a little muddy.

Yeah, it does get pretty muddy.

And I think it's super complicated because uh you other people's behavior affects you, right?

Yeah.

And so it would make sense that if you want to be able to protect your peace and and and you know manage your energy effectively, it does kind of matter what other people do.

but it's totally out of our control.

So, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Yeah, exactly.

We can only control ourselves, not others, right?

Um, Cheryl, this one for you.

What are the most common boundary challenges you see in your clinical work right now?

Um, because of my gray hair, I'm mostly seeing older folks um who were raised in a different generation.

Mhm.

Um, a lot of times there's a cultural or religious reason for why they feel they have to do particular things.

Um, and I have a lot of people who've been married for many years.

The kids are gone.

We're both retired.

What is my life going to look like?

And maybe I want new boundaries, new rules.

I want to do something different.

And that can be a little edgy sometimes for people, but I see that a lot.

Yeah.

So life transition boundaries, right?

So now that uh the nest is empty, now that we're retirement, now that our kids are in school, whatever those those life transitions are.

So kind of a and that's I think a really good um thing to note that boundaries aren't necessarily static.

They can change based on circumstances.

They can change based on life circumstances and as you you know, as as as things as things change.

I think that that if you set a boundary now, it's not forever.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Good.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Because well, and I think just to add to that, boundaries are based on our needs, right?

And our needs are fluid.

They're dynamic.

They're based in a lot of different things, including what our capacity is, and that changes with circumstances and mental health and um stressors and all kinds of things, right?

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Absol.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Um so Corey, what um what emotions tend to show up when someone starts setting boundaries?

Okay.

Guilt, fear, anxiety, and why?

Right?

So, you know, so if you're someone who's not used to setting any boundaries, and this is a very new concept, or trying to figure out what this even looks like, what can you kind of anticipate to show up and you know that's that's okay to have that emotion.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

So, a lot of times when people haven't been used to setting boundaries, right, they are often it can be because they are sort of afraid of the conflict that it might bring.

So they're afraid, well, this person's not going to like it if I set that boundary or this person might push back or this person might not like me anymore and and I'll be rejected, right?

So there's a lot of of fear involved in that and anxiety.

And I think that that is a very typical thing to feel initially, but I also think that people tend to feel quite a bit of relief once they've actually set the boundary.

And often those things that they've feared don't come to pass, right?

Because if they're setting boundaries with loved ones in particular, they love you.

You know, they want what's best for you.

And so if this person is receptive to your to your boundary, then you're going to feel a lot of relief that that now, oh my gosh, I am the master of my own ship.

Yeah.

And it it that brings to mind that you don't no one can read your mind.

even if you've been married for a long time, even if you're, you know, siblings or whatever.

So, don't assume that this this may feel like you'd be setting a big boundary and the other person doesn't doesn't have those negative thoughts about, oh, okay, you want me to do the dishes?

Well, you cook or I'll cook one night a week, but oh, sure, I'll do that.

No problem.

Right?

So, I think sometimes just the anticipation of putting up some of these boundaries has a lot of fear in people.

To add to that, I think the other thing that happens if you're not taking care of your boundaries, if you're saying yes to everything, you start this cycle of resentment, negativity, stress, anxiety that just feeds into, you know, I don't feel so good.

I'm getting mental health.

I'm getting a headache.

I'm getting a stomach ache because I keep doing things I don't want to or I don't have time for or it's, you know, I feel like I have to.

And so it's sort of a sense of who are you?

What do you want to do?

How much time can you give away?

You know, what is think about?

I always say to people, pause.

People can ask you all kinds of things.

and you get to say, "Let me get back to you so that you can sort of run through a little checklist and see if this is something I want to do or is this really going to rock my boat."

Yep.

Maybe, perhaps, we'll see.

Those were those were three things I used to say to my kids when they were growing up.

Maybe, perhaps, we'll see.

All the time because I wanted to give myself space to say yes or no or maybe.

I didn't want to have to be forced into a quick into into a quick.

So I do think that time taking a pause and before answering is any any anyone is is a good way for you to really think about wait a minute what what do I really want?

Is this a boundary violation?

Is this is this something I I need to take care I really want to do and you know do I have to take care of myself in other ways?

That kind of thing.

It sounds like there's a self-care element to this.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

The self-care element to boundaries.

Yeah.

Talk about Yeah, I absolutely think that's true.

Um because it's about getting our needs needs met and when we don't get our needs met we're obviously not taking care of ourselves and I think that when you said you know people can't read your mind right setting boundaries is a lot about just communication this is what I need this is what I can handle this is what I can't handle um this is where I need support right this is what I'm capable love because I mean I think about even in um in in marriages or you know in families when sometimes it's the hardest to set boundaries depending on the relationships right but sometimes it looks like I'm not going to do the dish or I'm not going to do dishes tonight I'll do it tomorrow but sometimes it looks like you know you ask me a lot of questions when I come home from work and I don't have the capacity to answer questions um one of The best examples of a boundary that I've set with my teenager is um okay before you ask me a question ask yourself if you can find the answer before you come to me right because a lot of times when we're talking about boundaries and the need for boundaries it's about mental load and what our capacity is to give to others.

Um, and it's okay to have limitations when it comes to that.

Even with your spouse, even with your kids.

Um, you know, we're all human.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're all doing the best we can.

That reminds me of when my I I that makes me remember a boundary.

I didn't even know, but my kids were little.

I would say I don't parent after eight, which obviously I would still parent after eight, but basically the boundary is like I will give you all my the loving mom until eight and after eight my I'm I'm I'm kind of my I'm at my limit.

So I'm not sure what kind of mom I'm not going to guarantee what kind of mom you're going to get after 8, so I don't parent after 8.

My kids went to bed very early.

And I think that goes back to the thing about I'll feel selfish if I take care of myself.

Yes.

And so it's okay to say, "I'm not answering every email as it floats through my box.

I'm going to, you know, only do that on Tuesdays or I only take phone calls up until 7 at night and then I don't talk to people."

And, you know, that's that work life balance.

Some of us have to struggle with our bosses about I didn't sign up to be 24 hours on call.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Work boundary.

Yeah.

Can you do you want to speak to to that?

And that's something that you know I feel like since co and everyone if they could worked from home and now we've got this you know obviously doing this work life balance and this expectation talk a little bit about so we've talked a lot about like within the family but talk about other boundaries if you will.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that really I mean it's really similar in terms of how you decide what your boundary is and I think that very often we don't know what our boundary is until it's been crossed and that's where boundary setting is really a practice that's just ongoing because it's also as you mentioned Rachel really dynamic because your capacity changes.

So the way that we know if we can do something is doing that really clear like internal check.

How much do I have to give right now?

And then that can change.

And so I think with work I think it makes sense to try to set some limits about okay in general I'm not going to do uh work after this time or I'm not going to you know be on call 247.

But I also think it makes sense to check in with yourself about like okay you know do I have capacity to add an extra client this week for example for us or right our world for our world um or you know in general I don't like to check email after a certain amount of after a certain hour but what the check that I do with myself is would I have the energy to deal with whatever came through my inbox right now and I asked myself that question before I open up my my email and it's like if I don't have time to deal with it right then or the energy then I'm not going to look at it.

Yeah.

And that's Yeah.

I put a boundary so I don't have my work email on my phone because I don't want to have to be in scrolling checking you know I'm at the whatever line and then see something that's important and I so I I set that and again didn't even realize that it was really a boundary but I was like you know I just don't want I I don't want that that boundary.

Okay.

So, we have um a question and any of you guys can um can hop on this one.

So, how do you maintain boundaries and have boundaries when you have an older child who has substance use um and other and and lies?

Um how do you set boundaries around that and anyone?

It's a really good question.

Yeah.

So, I'm guessing this is a parent.

I'm assuming it's a parent.

I'm assuming it's a parent.

And so how do you set boundaries when you have a an adult child who has Okay.

The child is an adult.

Yes.

The child Yes.

So the the child is an adult um or an older child is unclear and we could do it both ways.

But you know how do you do that as a parent with older well and I think and substance use right then we have substance use.

Yeah.

And so we feel guilty.

I failed as a parent.

Why is my kid using drugs or alcohol inappropriately?

You know, what did I role model?

What should I have done better?

And so, you have to sort of drop that guilt and think if they're an adult, they're making the choice to continue to use.

And it's not your responsibility.

They know or you can direct them to services that will help them get control.

But what I hear from a lot of parents is, "Oh, I pay their bills.

I'm kind of bailing them out.

I babysit when he forgets to pick up his kid from his wife.

I mean, a lot of things where you're sort of cleaning up behind them with a broom and a dustpan.

And the boundary needs to be you've made this life for you.

You need to figure out how to self-correct because drug addicts and alcoholics are good at burning bridges with everyone.

And you know, one of your boundaries, I had a good friend whose son oded when he was staying overnight and they wouldn't have caught it if the dog hadn't barked.

And she was so angry and she said, "You cannot live here anymore.

I will not loan you any money.

You take your car and you leave now."

And he was a gasast.

He couldn't believe that she had made that decision.

And she said, "I held to it and it was hard and I worried cuz I didn't get phone calls and where was he and was he okay?"

But within a year he had cleaned his act up.

He had a new circle of friends.

He had joined some civic organizations and he said to me, "Mom, thanks."

Wow.

Yeah, that's really powerful.

That's that's amazing.

I think that's so important to really really hone in on that point of it because for like the whole concept of boundaries was popularized around the around the substance use and recovery world, right?

And it was about this idea of enabling enabling addicts and the they're not there is no motivation to get better if somebody is sweeping up behind you, right?

There's no motivation.

So to be able to set a boundary for yourself, in that case you're helping yourself because you're protecting your own space, but you're also helping the person who you're setting the boundary with.

Do you want to talk about from the standpoint of it's a 17, 18 year old living at home?

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I think that that's really important and it's really interesting to work with kids who are still kids but who are very close to adulthood, right?

and um that have this idea that they have things figured out, but they're still their parents are still caring for them.

Because, you know, you're talking about setting boundaries with cleaning up after them.

But to a certain extent, if you have a minor child or a child who isn't working because they're like 18, 19, right?

Um there are still some parental responsibilities, right?

However, um oftent times I talk about parents um approach to their relationship with their kid and saying like it's not your job to save them from themselves.

It's your job to love them.

And that love looks different based on um what their needs are and what you as a parent have control over.

Right?

when with a younger child who's living with you or you know an old like an older child but one who's still living with you that struggles with substance abuse there are still rules and consequences of the house um that need to be abided by and um and stuck to because it's that accountability piece right I think there's this fear that with whether it's an an adult child or an older child there's this fear of parents that if I don't do something then you know something terrible will happen.

So they're taking on responsibility for you know for their child's emotional safety for their child's emotional well-being.

And to a certain extent even with older teenagers we don't have as much control over that.

And it's not our job to be responsible for them.

It's our job to give them the supports that they need.

And sometimes that means um that means tough love.

That means making sure that you are parenting out of compassion, but also that that boundary, right?

This is not okay.

This is not what we do.

I talk about the ACT limit setting model all of the time with parents, which is a three-part and says, you know, acknowledge the feeling, right?

Yep.

It's hard that I'm not able to do this for you anymore.

That's hard.

It's scary to be an adult, right?

And then set the limit.

Yeah.

Right.

This is your responsibility, not mine.

Yeah.

And then target alternatives or provide support.

If you're willing to work toward this on your own, I will help you find supports, right?

Um and obviously what you provide in that third piece is based on your mental health.

um and you taking care of yourself.

And I would also say there's a lot of support for these kind of things and individualized situations at like Alanon.

Yeah.

Right.

And things like that.

There are reasons that these things exist.

Yeah.

I was going to say like some of the outside organizations, the Alanons and things like that.

And I refer I'm sure we all refer to organizations like that that really really help setting up those boundaries.

I'm sure we all have clients whose family members whether they're parents or or or children are you know are are struggling and then how to do that.

And then Cheryl that makes me um so um we were talking about the younger what about boundaries and you work with an older population and then older whether that's taking away keys and you know encouraging if not requiring to go to you know so what about that end of and sandwich generation that's that's in the that's in the middle and you've got parents and you have kids and how much time can you And I think lots of us are going to go through the situation where, you know, mom or dad just isn't quite up there.

And I'm kind of afraid.

We knew my grandma had to go to the nursing home because she put let wet laundry in the oven and turned it on.

So the concept was there, but you know, and then it's like, okay, she can't be home alone anymore.

And it's very hard when it's a loved one.

And sometimes these caretaking situations creep up on us and we sort of, oh, she's just getting older.

It was a mistake.

And the older person may do that themselves.

Oh, you know, I am, you know, to sort of cover it up.

Oh, a lot.

Yeah.

There's a lot of work for for covering up.

And so I think it just becomes an issue, you know, like I I don't want to be the grandma who babysits every day.

Yeah.

You know, you may have to say to your kids, I'm no, I can't drive the kids to school because you're in a mess.

You know, I need more warning.

I need more warning.

Yeah.

And the whole thing of when your mother gets older.

I cared for my mom for 15 years.

And there's always a doctor's appointment.

She forgot to get her meds and she wasn't driving.

And you know, just things where I would grit my teeth and have to be kind, you know, and so sometimes it was hard to set a boundary.

And I learned because I'm not one cuz we're all helpers.

So I should never ask for help.

I was able to say to my sister-in-laws, you know, I need a break.

Can you just take her for a weekend?

And then I bet when you got her back and we're then you had more energy.

And then you were a better caregiver.

So when we put that it's actually the most I always say sometimes the most selfish the selfless thing we can do is being a little selfish.

Um and to so we can care for others better.

Um, real quick, um, Corey, um, how can someone start small if boundaries seem overwhelming?

Well, I think that there's a really nice kind of entry way that we can use, which is not saying yes or no, but saying when.

So, if you're like if somebody asks you to do something or you know, uh, like say they want to get together to hang out and you just cannot do it that night, instead of saying no, just say how about next weekend?

Yeah.

So suggesting a different time instead of saying no is a nice way to kind of ease into it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Anyone else?

Some sort of small like little um just one thing about boundaries real quick before we wrap up.

The thing I had to learn is no is a complete sentence.

You don't have to do no but no and no because.

Just no is fine.

It doesn't have to be shouted but just to say no can't do it.

Sorry.

any last last minute walk away remembering one thing about boundaries.

Um I don't know anything those those those were great and I I I yeah I think you know starting small doing some I think the pauses are really are really important and so I think that that was a great conversation.

Thank you guys so much.

I want to thank our panelists Corey Duffy, Cheryl Champion and Rachel Linder.

Please join Doctors on Call next week where Dr.

Dr.

Ryan Harden will be joined by regional experts for a panel discussion about ear, nose, and throat problems, sleep apnea, and allergies and infections with a panel of experts from around the region.

And if you're looking for more tips, tricks, and conversation around health and wellness in the Northland, be sure to check out Northern Balance on the PBS North YouTube channel.

Thank you for watching and for joining us for season 44 of Doctors on Call.

Good night.