Hello, and welcome to the bookmark.

I'm Christine Brown, your host.

Today.

My guest is Michael Smith, author of Mindfulness and Texas Nature.

Michael, thank you so much for coming back and being on the show for a second time.

Sure.

I'm delighted to be here.

I'm so excited to talk about this book, because it's a little bit different than a lot of the other kind of nature and environment books that we have.

so I want to start right up front with, kind of defining what mindfulness is and it's essence of the book.

You bet, you bet.

Well, mindfulness is just about being in the present moment and not kind of lapsing into autopilot like we often do when we're out somewhere.

Like, if you drive somewhere and you get there and you you couldn't have said what went along the way because your, your mind was somewhere else.

So really, I guess a can a, a definition I borrow in the book from, Jon Kabat-Zinn is, that mindfulness is, a particular way of paying attention on purpose in the present moment and not non-judgmental.

it's a practice that's related to Buddhism, but it's not in itself a religious practice.

It is.

It can be completely secular.

what what happens in mindfulness is we simply pay attention to what's happening in our awareness, in the present moment and let everything else go.

And of course, our minds don't cooperate with that.

It keeps generating more thoughts.

And we remember what happened yesterday or think about tomorrow.

And then each time, just let it go and come back to the present moment, what's actually happening right now.

And as we practice that regularly, we get better at it.

So there's less stuff coming into our minds.

And I mean this kind of mindfulness in general.

But then mindfulness in nature is, is probably really about, I'm in the book, you talk about how it's really about being outside and using all of your senses.

What are you absolutely feeling?

What are you seeing?

What are you smelling?

All all of the absolutely that that is the idea.

And a lot of the book is, descriptions of travels around different places in Texas and doing just that, being someplace and paying attention first to breathing for a little bit, noticing how all the sensation of each breath going in and then back out and sort of centering ourselves in the present moment, and then kind of turning outside and seeing what, what do we notice?

What do we see?

But also what do we hear?

And is there anything to smell?

How does the earth feel under our feet?

Or if we hold something in touch, it just being in all of that whole sensory world of the present moment, it's actually a related it's similar to a practice that's called Shenron yoku in in Japan, gets translated into forest bathing, which sounds like you're going to take a towel and but it really means just immersion in the woods.

It's a similar kind of practice.

It's about being there, not in a an intellectual kind of framework where you're trying to, you know, document a lot of stuff and talk about a lot of stuff, but just literally feel it, smell it here at all of that.

I love this concept because I as you say sometimes we're in nature.

We want to see that bird or I want to accomplish this thing or I want to finish this hike.

And this is just to remind us that it's not just about an end goal or an end point.

It's also about just being just being there to enjoy it.

That's right, that's right.

We, we are very oriented toward getting stuff done.

and this is not an example of getting stuff done.

This is, this is, it may be a Buddhist term, but we talk about this sort of sense of non doing.

So for example, if you were to sit and and watch, a stream, you're not you don't have a goal in mind.

It's not like you're trying to you're not trying to get anything done or see something in particular.

You'll see things.

But you know, you know, working toward a goal.

and you're not talking, you're just experiencing what's, what's there.

mindfulness brings in a number of, of kinds of attitudes.

I guess it is hard to be nonjudgmental, completely aware of your present moment, and not wind up with some sense of compassion.

a greater sense of patience, and, and that quality of that, what is called beginner's mind, where you are seeing something, is it for the first time.

So if I'm sitting at a stream looking at a butterfly and I've seen a million Go Fritillary, if mindfully, I'm not going to just say, oh, yeah, another go fritillary.

instead it would be like really seeing for the first time those orange colors and that fluttering movement and the grace and beauty of that insect.

So I, I really I, I've said this to you before, but I just love that concept of beginner's mind.

I mean, how many cardinals do you see?

But if you stop and look at one, it's a beautiful thing.

If you, you know, I, I just it is I hope to take that and apply it more in my own life because I think it's a wonderful thing to appreciate the gifts of the natural world that we, as you say, we take for granted a lot.

It is, I also did want to talk about you.

You kind of go a little bit into detail in the book about the, the benefits of.

There have been a lot of study.

Being in nature is actually good for us as human beings.

It really is.

It really is.

It.

I think one of the things that happens is that it provides some continuity, at least for for many of us everyday life.

There's it throws such crazy stuff at us and everything seems to change.

And you go into the woods and there's that continuity that's always there for you.

It's always, you know, I see in the books I'm thinking about, you know, the the rain's always going to smell the same way.

The trees are there for you.

you can count on it.

Right.

But also we grew up in, most people would say we grew up in a Savannah kind of setting where some grassland dotted with trees and it and early humans, did best when they were very finely attuned to those places.

And what happens in them and how do you survive in those places?

And so some people would argue that it gave us evolutionarily, it gave us a attendance key to, to seek to to be comforted and to seek out nature.

the biologist E.O.

Wilson developed a hypothesis called the biophilia hypothesis that we basically innately gravitate toward living things and living systems.

and, and there's, one of the people that works on on stress reduction, Roger Ulrich, kind of takes the cue from there and basically says, yeah, big in nature, just kind of inherently reduces stress.

and people who do this work have documented, decreases in, in, stress hormones and in depression and ruminative thinking where we're just kind of stuck on a train of kind of negative thought or whatever, and that that decreases anxiety, can decrease blood pressure and heart rate can, decrease.

other people working on this say that.

Well, the deal really is that, everyday life we are constantly having to use our attention and use it really deliberately, what they call executive attention.

And a lot of the effort involved in focusing our attention is about inhibition.

So as if we were sitting in a cafe somewhere, I would be having to inhibit responding to stuff going on around me and the sounds and maybe smells and all that to listen to what you have to say.

So it's, you know, when you think about it, there's a lot of work that goes into paying attention to stuff in the work world or in settings where you're having to really do it in an executive kind of way.

And the researchers in this sort of tradition would say that, being in nature, is what they refer to as a sort of soft fascination.

You look at a sunset, you watch a stream, you listen to birds.

You don't have to be using the executive part of your attention to what is that?

Where's it coming from?

And all those kind of things that you see just there and that that gives the executive a chance to rest and sort of recuperate.

so, but but there are benefits in terms of, of, cardiac and, and other things.

There's similar benefits with mindfulness that have been documented that, really parallel it a great deal, including, growl, greater attention and focus, which is not surprising, but also more relationship skills.

One, some places where they've used it in training therapists, they find greater, empathy so that it's easier to, let stuff go in and kind of get a sense of, where is this person?

Where are they coming from?

What would it be like to be in their shoes right now?

in those skills are, of course, are valuable for all of us, not just therapists.

And I, we're going to talk about some of the wonderful places you visited in this book, which include beautiful national and state parks.

And of course, those are great places, I'm sure, to practice mindfulness and to be in nature.

But you don't have to go to those places.

You can be in your backyard or a city park or anywhere.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's I just I want to make, you know, we're going to talk about grand vistas.

Grand vistas, but the tree on your back porch.

Right.

If you, you you sit, pay attention to your breathing.

And you could sit and listen to a cardinal in your backyard.

And and, you know, the idea is not to, to get a grand vista.

The idea is to, you know, practice being aware of the present moment and all that that brings to us.

I do want to talk about because you wrote the book, you the author, but you also worked with a photographer.

so the book is full of beautiful, wonderful photographs.

And you took all these trips together to.

Yes to document your experiences.

Can you talk about how you work together to create that you met?

Oh, almost every with the exception of the Sherry key part one.

And we had been there together.

But we went back together for photos.

But the other ones, she's photographing what I'm describing.

At the same time.

I think that is kind of a plus.

We talk about, for example, at Mule Shoe, National Wildlife Refuge, listening to a meadowlark, and seeing a northern harrier, which is a, a raptor cruising around looking for something to eat and how the meadowlark sort of dropped to the ground.

And she's got pictures.

She has a great photo of that Harrier, looking at us like, what's up?

as I was describing that.

And so it's a real plus.

Meghan is another naturalist like me.

we met because of our interest in the natural world.

And then I discovered.

Yeah, she's a heck of a photographer.

and so as we got to know each other, you know, cooked up the idea of, we ought to do this book, and she ought to do the photos, and and I'll do the writing.

I think I want to highlight to what you say about having the actual photo of what you're describing makes it so special, because a lot of times, you know, books will have beautiful photography of an example of the bird you're talking about, example of the or of the place you visited.

But this is in the moment.

This is the same moment that you're both capturing and you're different.

Right.

And I think that really just it's so rich because of it.

I really appreciated to see the bird you're talking about, not just a bird you're talking about.

Well, it it made the travels.

It made the process of doing the book.

a real joy.

because being there with a companion that you like and trust and are very like minded, means a lot.

So those those trips, I think, for both of us will sort of live on, you know, forever has really special moments.

Well, and then live on in the book, too.

So I do want to talk about some of the trips you took.

well, we'll start with the big one, the Big Bend Park.

You, you had some the photograph of the Cheeseheads Mountains, and you describe the scene there.

can you can you tell us about that example?

Sure.

You bet.

I love I love that place.

And one of the days that we were there, we went up into the Jesus Mountains.

your viewers who are familiar with the lost mine trail in the Jesus Mountains will recognize that and may recognize the photo from from the cover or the, the other photo that will show you, and one of the things I wrote while we sat there was this I wrote sitting in a quiet spot on the side of the mountain.

The world seems nearly to standstill.

There is the soothing hum of bees and butterflies of various colors and patterns.

Visit the flowers and flutter off through the woodland.

Mexican jays fuss and call to each other, but the busy activity of all these things just makes the underlying stillness more manifest.

Here we can let go of the pace at which our lives move, and join the near motionless time scale of weathering granite.

And that place is like that to me.

It's a place that's particularly quiet and still, and that's a lot of what we would want to do in mindfulness is to become still and listen and take everything in.

And that that trail's a wonderful place.

I also, I didn't tell you this before, but I want to quote you back to you too, because you were talking about the Big Bend National Park in that section.

You you say in the book we are estranged from and many of us are a little afraid of truly wild places.

That really struck out to me that it's true.

It is.

It makes you feel small.

It makes me feel small.

When I'm in a place like that.

But also, that's probably a good experience for me to have, is to feel small and to feel alone.

Sure.

Well, one of the things that I talk about in that same passage was how, it it's good for us.

I think, to sometimes be in a place that doesn't just when we look around, always reflect ourselves back to us.

And that's a place that's, so, wild and undeveloped that you look around you and you don't see human activity in human products reflected back to us.

And for some people, it's like, this is too much, right?

But if we spent some time there, you can let it settle in, kind of get get okay with it.

It's it's a wonderful thing.

And it and I do think that there's a quality of humility that can come from that, that we really need.

I just that, that really stuck out to me because I, I feel it and I like feeling that way, I like that.

Yeah.

It, it, it calls a little bit I think to something inside of us to, you know to, to experience that to, to want to be away from all that we create and deal with.

And like you say, the stress of daily living doesn't exist if you if you don't let it in places like that.

So I just I love that section.

I love that passage.

I do want to call to mind you in your in your reading, you mentioned that you were in Big Bend in spring and that this book does cover kind of all four seasons.

You're visiting locations around the state, all, all kind of to kind of cover all the bases, I guess, of our of our weather that we can have.

Right?

That's the way I organize.

The second part of it is by seasons.

So there's a a brief introductory thing about spring and, and kind of the meteorological as well as the, astronomical way that we keep track of when spring starts and ends and then stuff that we visited in spring and then summer and autumn and winter, which, you know, anybody who's ever traveled in this state knows, of course, the state is broad.

The landscapes are broad.

And the weather, of course, can be very broad.

Right.

And I like that you were able to you and Megan were able to represent all of, of the things we can see and feel.

another section I did want to highlight, too, is when you were out at Caddo Lake, in the forests there, a very vast, different landscape than it is.

It's Big Bend, but that's the beauty of our state is the other side of the state and other side of the world.

It might as well be right.

Can you that I'm sure about that.

Well one of the a lot of people go to Caddo Lake and the lake itself is beautiful and wonderful.

And it's like being in a southern swamp with the cypress in tupelo and the hanging Spanish moss and everything like that.

It's a beautiful place.

And along one edge of it is property that used to be used by the military in World War Two.

It was an ammunition factory.

So, that's really striking to me that well, and it's very striking to anybody who visits, if you walk through what is now Caddo Lake National Wildlife Refuge, there are lanes that go up and down through the forest, and you come out through the trees into the skeletal remains of an old building.

And, it's it's, you know, those first few times it was a little like The Twilight Zone was very, odd, but but part of what struck me was that this had been a place that, you know, developed the, ammunition, weapons of war.

and, and yet now it is recovering.

one of the things I. Well, the photo that you that you might look at, kind of a panoramic look at some, concrete stands in and, and you see that it's being overrun by vines and, the vegetation is taking over, and it's really quite beautiful.

And when I wrote, was that life is going on in these places, a garden is growing where the work of war was once done, the rain, soil, lichens and plants will one day grind of the concrete and break down the residual poisons so that traces and memories are all that is left.

Humans have helped, but in the long run, it is the forest that is gradually reclaiming the land.

Think of this as a place where you're by year and inch by inch, life has the last word.

I don't know how long the forests full redemption will require, but someday it will come.

and and part of that is about the fact that, you know, it has been may still be part of it.

A, a Superfund site.

The poisons there were they I mean, they've had a water treatment plant there to to to make sure the water is now.

Okay.

but it it was seriously, seriously changed at one time.

And it's, it's a beautiful place now, but yeah, the the earth turns on and is going to reclaim what what's it what belongs to it.

I just think that's that picture too, is so striking.

I didn't know that that was part of it in that area.

So seeing those photos and there's more than just the one you're going to see, there's several images of it's it's striking to see that there's, as you say, the vines are taking it back.

Right, right.

Blocks of concrete buildings.

they, they of course, lock the doors the first time or two.

they weren't locked, actually.

And, and, you know, you could walk in.

There's bats clinging to the sides of the, there's a photo of of, a ghost plant.

there's lots of things growing there.

And in the springtime, when, when the smaller trees begin to blossom, it's a beautiful place.

It really looks like it's being reclaimed.

I do want to talk about two.

You mentioned bats, but I want to talk about some of the critters that you, mentioned in the book.

And since the last time you were here to talk about snakes, we got to talk about snakes a little bit.

But there was an encounter that you you had with a cottonmouth, which most people would.

I'm sure you're the snake guy, so maybe you wouldn't.

But yeah, you're everyday person walking through the woods is not going to want to see a cottonmouth really well.

And I included in there partly because when people think about going out to these wild places, there might be a little bit of fear of, you know, what if we saw Cottonmouth?

What if we ran into a coyote and with a little caution and a little bit of learning, you know, it's really okay.

So yes, that that for me was a really welcome experience.

And really, Megan too, she's learned to be quite, quite good with, you know, wrangling venomous snakes when need be.

they have a bad rap because people think that they attack people or chase them.

And really, that doesn't really work that way.

but, they what they will do if you corner them and we inadvertently we cornered this one not to be mean to it, but because we wanted some photos and they will sit and gape their mouths, to you and and, yeah.

You just you know, you stay the appropriate distance back and you can you can do that.

And we'll probably talk about alligators in a minute.

You can be sort of close if you know a good to the right distance to stay back and leave them alone, you're fine.

because they're just they're just trying to live their lives.

I'm trying to live.

Yep.

I also, I love the idea, you know, if we're if we're being mindful to and we're paying attention to our surroundings, we could see them before we get too close and we won't have to close off an encounter that would make it dangerous.

Exactly.

If we'd been walking through the area with earbuds on or listening to something or chatting or whatever, and really not paying as much attention, then we might have inadvertently stepped on that cottonmouth.

And that's when serious problems really do happen.

But yeah, you you go slow.

you're taking in everything.

And yeah, you may see these things and say, oh, that's that's cool.

I'll stay right here.

And look, that's exactly what I would do.

Yeah.

I would not get close for a picture.

I would try to zoom in from a distance.

I do want to talk about the alligators, too, because y'all had an encounter with I can't.

I never have thought about it, but there's a photo in the book of, like, a pile of alligator.

Yeah.

It's outstanding.

And that was amazing.

So this was at Anahuac National Wildlife Refuge, and a whack is sort of between.

It's near Beaumont kind of kind of near, Port Arthur.

at any rate, it's a coastal marsh in some, some beach area, but mostly coastal marsh.

It's a great birding destination.

And, and so we, I, I write about the birds somewhat and about the marsh and the appearance of it and all of that.

But as we're driving along and this is keep in mind this is end of Winter.

And what had just happened a few weeks before is what people refer to as snowmageddon.

Is that horrible episode we went through when the temperatures were really, really cold.

All the ice and snow, people died.

It was terrible.

And then when it thawed, it did what Texas does, and it began to look toward spring and warmed up some.

So it was in the 60s that day.

and we had seen alligators basking because that is an area along the coast.

Coastal marshes are great for alligators, and they get used to people birding, and they just lay there and soak up the sun, and they don't really do much.

I mentioned in the book, it's very important not to get too close because if you get if you get too close to one and frighten it, or if people have fed it and it now looks to humans as a source of food, they can outrun you for short distances.

So like, you really don't want to push the limits, but as long as you don't push those limits, it's fine.

You can watch these things there.

But we were driving along and we saw this just huge congregation of alligators.

And so we got out of the car, sat on the bank of the canal, across the canal are all these and they're all babies and sort of up to adolescent.

And none of them were very big.

I think maybe some of the bigger ones were around four feet, and literally some of them piled on each other.

and we were a bit taken aback at first.

Who?

Meghan was counting them and she, she counted, I think, 40 something.

it was imprecise because they were piled on each other.

Our best explanation, my theory, at any rate, is that they had overwinter because alligators will overwinter in, in burrows into the soil of, like the banks of a waterway.

And the burrow goes down, comes up, there's some air, and they can overwinter and not be at risk of freezing.

And they probably had come out after Snowmageddon but had not dispersed.

Plus, what we do know is that young ones will kind of hang together for the first couple of years, which is maybe why some of the babies and big ones and we saw something that was so it was really a moment of drama.

It was like that microcosm of of drama as a little reptilian head was making its way across the the canal, swimming straight to the alligators.

It's like, okay, these are probably hungry gators, right?

And, it turned up.

Looking at the photos more closely later, it was a small water snake and one of the little gators like, you know, popped up and hey, and jumped in, but came up empty handed.

So the snake got away.

I have no idea how, because all those all those gators would have been happy to have it for lunch.

Such an interesting experience.

unfortunately, we are running short on time here, but in our final, like, minute.

could you maybe just kind of sum up what you want people to take away from this?

Sure, sure.

I, I think that, the way to do that might be to tell you something that's in the epilog of the book, just as a way of summarizing.

So here's here's what we hope, here's what our hopes are.

so in the epilog, what I wrote was Meghan.

And I hope that you will find trout lilies.

We had.

I'm sorry.

We we had visited a place to look for trout lilies, which is a small plant that comes up at the end of winter, very beginning of spring.

It's a beautiful but subtle little plant.

You have to kind of look for it.

so it's a little treasure that is like, okay, winter is almost done, Meghan.

And I hope that you will find trout lilies or other small and beautiful things that are reasons to believe in better days coming in those better days, kids will play in the woods.

People will feel confident, comfort and familiarity in a prairie or a creek, just as they might in their home.

If we each do our part, our estrangement from nature might begin to heal.

And that's really the message of the book, is we are kind of estranged from nature, and we would be better off if we did begin to heal some of that.

Such a wonderful way to sum up and to say that, thank you so much for being here and for writing this book and sharing this with us today.

Well thank you.

Unfortunately, that's all the time we've got, the book again is called Mindfulness in Texas Nature.

Thank you so much for joining us, and I will see you again soon.