(gentle upbeat music) (uplifting music) (uplifting music continues) (uplifting music continues) - Hello, and welcome to "The Bookmark."

I'm Christine Brown, your host.

Today, my guests are, together, known as McKinley Zumwalt, and their novel is "Moonlight Massacres."

Thank you both so much for being here today.

- Oh, it's great be here.

- Thank you so much for having us.

- I'm excited to talk about your novel.

I don't get to talk about novels too often, so it's always a treat when I've got a little fiction to talk about.

But I wanna just start by asking you to introduce the book to our audience.

- The book is about a Texas Ranger who is sent by Leander McNelly, it's based on truth, and sent to break up all the crime and mayhem happening in the Nueces Strip.

- In 1877.

- In 1877.

- Well, and as the title implies, the moon figures actually pretty heavily in the book.

- It does.

- Can you talk about why and why you chose the moon?

- I know, we look at each other and go, "Wow, which one wants to say this?"

Well, we live in the country, and I was outside, and it was a full moon, and I could see such amazing details by this full moon.

I went, "Wow, you could read out here."

And so that kinda started the idea germinating on... And then I read about a series of crimes that occurred on the full moon, that people were riding their horses into places and killing people on the full moon.

And so that started the ball rolling.

- I think that's one of the things about the 1870s, that we don't relate to, is that there isn't external sources of light.

But the funny thing is that you can go on the internet right now, and you can look up to see what the moon phase is in any time in history.

And so when we structured this moonlight, we actually put into the different chapters what the phase of the moon was.

That kind of gives you a pacing of how long it takes before the next full moon and the next crime.

- I really enjoyed that and thought that was an interesting way, 'cause, you know, intellectually, we know dates.

- It adds suspense.

- And, intellectually, we know, okay, the moon wanes and waxes and stuff.

But seeing it, like there's little graphics in there that show you what the moon phase is, and that really does build suspense 'cause you know there's a clock ticking- - Good.

(Theresa and Jerry laugh) - (laughs) to the next crime.

And I also love that you mentioned you being out in the country, because in the city, we are spoiled.

The full moon doesn't mean as much to us.

- It doesn't.

And people used to plant by the moon.

You know, they used to take harvest trips.

And we don't gauge anything by the moon.

- Sure.

But it used to be very, very important.

And this novel reminds us, for a number of reasons, why.

So you mentioned that there are some characters in the book that are based on historical figures.

Can you tell us about that?

And what's it like trying to, you know, obviously you don't know what they're thinking or how they'd react in certain situations.

How do you build a character out of a historical figure?

- When I was a child, I lived in Uvalde, and there was a park called Pioneer Park.

And one of my friends, who is an Aggie, Katie Capp, lived there.

So whenever we had slumber parties, we would sneak into Pioneer Park and scream, and dance, and play and have a great time.

And it's a graveyard.

And buried in that graveyard is King Fisher.

So we had a fascination on who King Fisher was, and we heard people talk about him all the time.

Some people loved him, and some people'd go, "That guy's a crook and a criminal."

So it started, that germinated something.

Is he a crook, is he a criminal, or is he a nice guy?

So I started doing some research on him, and I try to weave those things.

Like there's a description in the beginning of the Stetson with the gold hat band and his horse, Yeller Lightning.

That all comes from biographies that his great-grandson did.

And so it's interesting, to me, to have some of those historical figures.

And McNelly was one.

In the local bank, they had McNelly Room, which had pictures of him.

And so we grew up learning about who he was.

And he died when he was 33, yet he accomplished so much.

He really tamed the criminal element in that whole wide Nueces Strip, from Corpus Christi to Brownsville, all the way up, anything south of the Nueces Strip, north of the Rio Grande.

It's a huge area.

41 men, and they tamed that.

- That's one of the goals of our publisher, which is TCU Press, is to come up with material that actually appeals to new readers, and to communicate historical facts in a way that's more palatable than just reading a dry textbook.

So by incorporating these characters and the facts into the story, we hope that people are more attracted to it and learn more about it.

- I think that works for people of all ages.

I do read a lot of history books doing this show, but even while reading this, there were a couple times I would go, "Is that real?"

And I would go to Google, or Wikipedia or somewhere, (Theresa and Jerry laugh) and then get- - And was it?

- It was a lot of the times.

(Theresa and Jerry laugh) Yeah, and then I'd get lost reading about the history of it.

So historical fiction, I think, is a wonderful way that we can bridge that gap and get people who maybe aren't always interested.

- So we don't know what they would say, but we kind of knew, by their actions, things that they would do.

And we do know the events that were prominent that surrounded them.

So the rest, whoops, we made up.

(all laugh) - Well, and one of the things about King Fisher is that, historically, they say that he was not, didn't drink.

But we also know that people change, of course, over the course of their life.

So there's some scenes that include that with that character, even though it's not, strictly speaking, what they'd say.

At the end of his life, he was a teetotaler.

So it's kind of fun to play with some of that.

- I think that must be fun.

You have kind of a place to start, but then sky's the limit.

Basically, you can do what you want.

On the other hand, though, some of your characters are completely made up.

- Fiction.

- I don't know if it'd be easier or harder than with no template.

So how do you go about building your fictional characters?

- I think a lot of what we've done with that is try to focus on the values that we knew that people of that time had.

And those stand out, I think, to some readers kind of going, "Why would somebody respond to this situation the way that they do?"

And, of course, all good fiction is based on character.

So we draw the characters that way.

- We also had a lot of great-aunts and great-uncles, and we know how polite they were and how formal they were.

And we've totally lost that in our culture.

Like, I had grandparents who never called each other by their first name, and they always called, "Mr. Levell," "Mrs.

Levell."

Now, in private, they would call each other by first name, but in public, they always called each other formally.

So that was one of the starts.

And I don't know if you've read Charles Portis' "True Grit."

It's very formal and very formal language.

As a matter of fact, he was criticized for that because he kept that formality throughout the whole thing.

So one of the things that we tried to do was keep the "Yes, ma'am," "No, sir," and that formality, and show that times were different.

And people have changed, culture has changed.

- How much research went into the book?

I'm sure you had to do a lot, both maybe on character, but then also on place, to write the story.

- Research is odd, because you're doing research every day, all the time, and then you do a specific little chase-down of something.

And it's not like you're sitting down and writing copious notes, and going, "Oh, here's my research."

You know, it doesn't work that way.

You file things way, and then you might research it backwards, to go, "Now, is that the way it really is?"

to make certain.

Like you said, you go to Google and you check it, and... - And some of the things that are less common to the general public's idea about the Old West is a great resource.

So we know that there were a lot of Jewish merchants in the Old West.

Most of the cowboys were minorities, were former slaves or freedmen of African-American descent, and a lot of people from Mexican descent.

So by putting that character in place really enhances the storyline, and it's historically accurate.

- I think that's a wonderful piece of this, is that it is a diverse cast of characters.

And we get kind of stuck in the John Wayne memory, which isn't exactly- - Right, we do, we do.

- the actual memory.

So I think a novel like this, which does have its basis in fact, is important for people to remember that it wasn't the way it was in the movies necessarily.

- Yeah, and a lot of what we, today, imagine of the West is based on a lot of 1950s or 1940s values.

- Or 1970s.

(chuckles) - Yes, exactly.

And, of course, everybody has to write from their own point of view.

But it is funny how they kinda get limited to, everybody thinks Texas looks like Nevada, (Theresa chuckles) and Monument Valley, and Utah.

(chuckles) So, you know.

- Filming locations have always bothered me, yes.

- Yes.

- Yes.

Well, speaking of place, I would like to talk a little more about this area.

You mentioned you grew up in Uvalde, so you're familiar with this area of Texas.

I'm sure that helped in writing the landscape.

- I grew up herding goats.

I got paid by this old guy, who paid me to get on my horse and run through the brush, and try to, you know, shoo the goats through.

And when it was done, I would have to spend 30, 40 minutes picking thorns out of my horse's legs.

So, yes, I'm very familiar with that area.

And I love it, it's a great, it's a beautiful location, you know, scenes.

- You like the brush country.

- I like the brush country.

I've moved back to the brush country since I retired.

- Well, I think you did a great job describing it.

- Thank you.

- I'm not as familiar with the south, but I have family out in like far west and into New Mexico, and it's not that different.

Brush is brush, right?

- Brush is brush.

- But I do love that.

The desert sky, I mean, is unmatched, in my opinion.

- Oh, thank you.

- You really put us in there, which I really like.

- Thank you.

- So obviously there's two of you here, and there's one book.

So can you talk about how the writing process goes with a couple?

- Well, I'd like to crudely say I do the vomit version, (Christine chuckles) where I sit down and just write it.

And then I hand it off to some trusted readers.

And I have, like Louella Carr, who is the queen of the quotation marks, and commas, and the Spanish, and Frank Wolter, and- - Glen Doans.

- Glen Doans, and they come in and and give me encouragement, but they also might say, "Hey, you need to tweak this, you tweak this."

So I'd tweak that, and then I hand it to him.

And then he goes through with a fine pencil and goes, "No, it needs this, this, this, and this."

And then I do another version of it.

And it goes through about seven versions, where I hand it to him, and he adds.

- One of the things we've learned is we don't talk about it.

We actually, if we're going to make changes, we write it.

So I'll take the manuscript, and I'll go through and mark it, and looking at story structure and whether it makes sense, or if something stands out in my mind.

And at that point- - Or to change a character.

- Yes.

And we've agreed that she'll completely release it, "Do whatever you want to, to it."

Then I mark it, then it goes back to her, and I say, "Well, whatever you wanna do with it.

(Theresa chuckles) So you can change it however you want to."

So by releasing it that way and really focusing on the actual writing part of it, that's how we are able to make it work for us without biting each other's heads off.

- He's an expert on weapons, and I'm an expert on animals.

So there's places where we naturally defer to the other one and go, "Oh yeah, I don't know anything about that."

So anyway, it works out well.

He is a history lover, and he'll come through and go, "Nope, nope, that's not the way.

You're too early, you're getting ahead of people," or, "That's anachronistic," you know?

So it really helps to have that second eye.

I don't know how people write without it.

And we do write our own things, but it always runs through the other person.

- How long did it take to put together this book?

- 40 Years.

(all laugh) It went through various versions and various viewpoints.

It was originally "Esther's Book," and it switched.

And it actually won two awards at the Romance Writers of America, being "Esther's Book."

And then we settled and went, "You know, we're not really romance writers."

It has a romantic element in it, it has a suspense element, it has a mystery element, but we are really Western writers, and that's what we wanna do.

So now we're working and we've completed, what, five Westerns.

- Oh, wow.

- So this is our first to get published, but we're working on a- - Yeah, I was gonna ask, 'cause this is your debut novel, but it sounds like it's the first of many yet.

- It is because we wrote part-time.

We were college teachers, and so we wrote in the summers, and we never pursued the marketing of it.

But COVID came along, (chuckles) (Jerry and Christine chuckle) and COVID gave- - Gave us a lot more time.

- It gave us a lot more time.

(Jerry laughs) So... - It also changed, I used to have to, as part of my regular job in publicity, send out like physical, you know, pre-printed copies of it.

And then once COVID hit, everybody was fine with a PDF.

- [Theresa] Yes, they were.

- You could mark it so much easier with so much less time now, I think.

- [Theresa] It's really true, really true.

- So I was gonna ask, "Was it daunting to create your first novel?"

but it sounds like it was not necessarily, 'cause it's just been something you've been honing.

- Well, we had been writing film and television scripts.

I mean, we have some fabulous film and television scripts, like "The Complete Guide to Emu Farming."

(Jerry chuckles) And we also have the "Forklift Film," which helps you learn how to drive a forklift.

So we have done some scintillating writing.

(Jerry and Christine chuckle) This was the first thing we wanted to write.

How's that for an answer?

- That's not what I expected, (Theresa and Jerry laugh) but it's honest, and I like it.

Do you have advice for other people who might be considering trying to write?

Start with their emu?

- Well, yeah, that's right.

(Theresa chuckles) I think it was Studs Terkel, - Studs Terkel.

- who said, "All you have to do is sit down at the typewriter and open a vein."

(Christine chuckles) And so, you just have to put it out there.

I think that's one of the reasons why we talk about the revision, because we always say that, and a lot of people say, that the real writing is in the rewriting.

- And we have totally opposite styles.

He likes the room cold and quiet, and I like the room loud, and warm, and noisy.

So I go to one bedroom, and I turn on Latin jazz, which I don't understand the words of, and so I'm not tempted to sing along, and I write.

And then he goes into his cold, horrible place where his, you know, he can actually sit at a desk and do his work.

But I couldn't work like that.

I would be sitting there, going, "Ugh!"

- And there's a lot to be gained from taking courses, there's a lot to be gained from the associations for different writing groups, and to hear people read your stuff.

I think one of the greatest blocks, 'cause we also both taught writing, one of the greatest blocks that people have is they feel like, that they've written and nobody should change it.

- God gave 'em the words, and they can't be modified.

- So kind of getting over those types of hurdles is really helpful to see it as a means- - Commercial.

- Yeah, commercial, and simply communicating what you want.

And then let someone that you trust read it, and get their feedback and take it seriously.

There's so many avenues for printing stuff and self-publishing now.

Most people don't realize that the internet still is very much a printed-word way of communicating, notwithstanding TikTok and all that.

But there's space for that, I think.

- I think that's wonderful advice.

You mentioned the romance writers, but there's Western writers, there's- - [Theresa] Which we belong to.

- There's a place for everyone, and they also, if you aren't ready to share maybe with somebody you know, maybe it's better to have a stranger read it.

- That's true.

- There's communities for that, too.

- True.

- So I think that's wonderful advice.

- Well, the romance writers was really good for me because they actually taught you things, like grammar cheats and building characters, and they really did help put solid roots, solid bones, I guess.

- You know, writing is its own art form, and the way you write, a lot of people think it has to be more personal than that.

But still, it's as if a painter were to say, "Well, I'm not gonna use blue," or "I'm not gonna ever use this."

You have a whole palette of stuff that you need to exercise.

- And Hitchcock used to say, "You don't care what the apples taste like, you wanna just look at the beautiful apples."

Well, that's kind of what it is with writing.

They want to communicate to where it does move you and makes you want to read the next page.

That's like a really critical element, especially in a long novel.

- Absolutely.

What are some books or authors that give you inspiration, that you draw from?

- I think Louis L'Amour is the most underrated American writer.

And if you haven't ever read a Louis L'Amour novel, I highly recommend "Hondo," which was made into a John Wayne movie.

But the book is just great.

And there's other ones that he's written.

I think his descriptions are really good.

And I just read Andy Adams, who was published in 1903, I think, "The Log of a Cowboy."

And so he's really authentic in what he does.

And he's a really obscure writer that, but he's a South Texas writer, so...

But we're like you; we read.

(Christine chuckles) And we read everything.

- But you do have to be careful because what you read is what you write.

You get in that mode in your mind.

So I think that I always liked non-fiction for the same reason, 'cause I get inspired by the facts, and that has a great place, too.

- Oh, absolutely.

Sounds like y'all are the perfect blend there, which produces great novels, so it's working.

- There you go.

(chuckles) - You mentioned that there's a little bit of mystery here, and I wanna ask you the question I always love to hear mystery writers, it's not a mystery book, it's not like a whodunit or anything, but there's mystery here.

Did you know what the ending was, what the twist was, and work towards that, or did you just let it happen as you wrote it?

- I knew what the ending was.

(Christine and Jerry chuckle) And, like you said, we have some historical characters, like Parrot is one you might not suspect is historical, but he was actually a spy that was incorporated by the Texas Rangers, used by the Texas Rangers.

And they hired people, for really good money, to spy for them.

And so I knew I wanted a spy in there, and then I just had to pick the bad guy.

And I thought he was bad, so... (Christine chuckles) - But you do get characters, that you get to know who they are, and they do sort of take over the direction.

- They do.

- And that is kind of fun.

- And we've had characters say to us, "Nope, not saying that."

(all laugh) "But, what?

I think it's a good line."

"Nope, not saying that."

(Christine chuckles) One of the things that really intrigued me was, when I was researching McNelly's Rangers, that they said "No cursing, no alcohol, no cards in camp."

And I thought, "Well, what do you do for hours when you're waiting around," you know?

So he had these strict codes, and that intrigued me.

What kind of men would be willing to do that and be out in the brush for a long time?

And so it does begin to, your little gray cells begin to work, and you begin to put it together.

But, yes, the answer is it has a mystery.

(Jerry and Christine chuckle) - Which I will not spoil.

But I didn't guess it, so- - You didn't?

- No, I didn't.

- [Theresa] Oh, good!

I'm so glad!

(all laugh) - There's also some strong religious themes in the book.

Can you talk about why those are included and why they're important to you?

- McNelly had three things that he equipped his Rangers with.

And that was another thing that really started me going, because the first one was (speaks Spanish), and I'm probably saying it wrong, but it's a Mexican law called the Law of Flight.

If you turned around and ran from a Texas Ranger, they had the right to shoot you.

If your name was in the book, it was a warrant for arrest.

- And that was true with the Mexican Rangers, prior to the Texas Rangers.

- Yes.

- And then you're referring to, secondly, the book.

- They had a book called "The Book oF Knaves."

And that book had the known names of criminals in it.

And so the Rangers would refer to that book, that's really real.

Although, one of the "Book of Knaves" doesn't exist.

They still don't have one of those.

But the third thing that McNelly insisted on was that, before justice was dispensed, whatever that meant, whether it was hanging or shooting them, you were supposed to preach the Gospel of Christ to them, and go, "There's Heaven, and there's Hell, and you can pick today which.

You've been on the path to Hell, but you can pick today to choose right.

Just choose Jesus."

And I went, "Wow, what kind of men did that?"

And so that started the next ball rolling.

So we know it was a very religious time.

And one of the things that fascinated me was that, when you became a Texan, prior to 1836, you had to be baptized in the Catholic Church.

Every person that came to Texas had to be baptized and become Catholic.

Well, the Mexican government had promised to provide priests and churches for people, and they didn't do it.

So here came all these Americans, Norteamericanas, and they went, "But wait, we have Sunday service, who is it?"

And so they got together on their own.

And that began to cause problems among the Mexican government, but it also began a great sense of revival.

And so those things, pieces of history intrigued me.

Does that answer the question?

- It absolutely does.

(Jerry chuckles) It absolutely does.

That "Book of Knaves" was one of those things I had to see if it was really real, 'cause that was fascinating.

- It is.

- Yes, yes.

- It's just amazing.

- Well, and your great, you're talking about John Wesley DeVilbiss as a historical character from your family.

- Yeah, my family came to Texas in 1842, and my great-great-great-great-grandfather was the first Protestant preacher in San Antonio.

And he founded Travis Park Methodist Church and Oak Island Methodist Church.

And he was a circuit rider, and his diaries are at the Sid Richardson Library.

And it's really fascinating to read them, because he would go, "The river was swollen.

I wondered if I could swim across it, so I kicked my horse into the water, and then when he made it to the other side, I jumped in after him."

(Jerry and Christine chuckle) - So, I mean, you go, "Tough men, tough people."

- Absolutely.

- We're wimps.

(all laugh) - I like my air conditioning unit, so I'm okay with being a wimp.

- Yes, that's right.

- Me, too.

(Jerry chuckling) - Well, unfortunately, we are running low on time here.

So in our final two minutes, what would you hope the takeaway would be for our audience?

- I'd like people to look at it with fresh eyes and consider what this perspective is on, if they were in the same situation, and if they were being faced with somebody who was that violent in their life, what would be the appropriate response for it?

I think a lot of Westerns, we've kind of become very civilized and desensitized to the need to maintain civilization.

And so this is a place without it.

So you might think about that when you walk away from it.

- And, for me, it's history is fun.

And I hope that this would encourage people to read more history, learn Texas history.

I love Texas history.

- I think that's a wonderful takeaway.

It's not just dates and battles, it is stories and people.

- It's people, it is.

- Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, exactly.

- Well, thank you so much for being here and for having this conversation with me.

I really enjoyed it, I enjoyed the book.

- Thank you.

- I really appreciate it.

- [Jerry] Absolutely.

- That is all the time we have today.

Thank you so much for joining us.

The book, again, is "Moonlight Massacres."

We're out of time, so I will see you again soon.

(uplifting music) (uplifting music fades)