Announcer> A production of Instructional Television and South Carolina ETV.

Mark Quinn> Twenty-five years ago, the largest nuclear disaster in history took place behind the Soviet Iron Curtain.

Join us for this special three-part series as we pull back the curtain with a panel of experts, including naturalists, scientists, and historians, to learn about the effects Chernobyl had on nature, nuclear science, U.S.- Soviet relations, and the people who worked there and called Chernobyl home.

Rare photos and video captured by South Carolina ETV in partnership with the University of South Carolina will transport you across the world to an area that was devastated by an accident of catastrophic proportions.

But over time, the people and the nature have returned.

♪ Hello, I'm Mark Quinn.

Welcome to the third part of our three-part series, "Nature Comes Back: 25 Years After Chernobyl."

During this program, we'll hear more stories and learn how nature has adapted to the largest nuclear accident in history So join us in "Observing the Return of Life."

♪ Dr. Eduardo Farfán is the principal engineer for environmental science and biotechnology at the Savannah River National Laboratory in South Carolina.

He lived in Belarus near Chernobyl for five years and worked with the Chernobyl Center's International Radioecology Laboratory.

Dr. Gordon Smith is a professor of political science and director of the Walker Institute of International and Area Studies at the University of South Carolina.

Dr. Smith is a noted authority on Russian politics and the author of numerous books, including "Soviet Politics: Struggling with Change."

Dr. Tim Mousseau is a professor of biological sciences at the University of South Carolina.

He has made numerous trips to Chernobyl to study the impact of radioactive contaminants and is a leading authority on the impact of radioactivity on birds and insects in the area surrounding Chernobyl.

Charles Bierbauer is the dean of the College of Mass Communications and Information Studies at the University of South Carolina.

As the CNN senior White House correspondent in 1986, he reported on President Reagan's trip to Indonesia and Japan as Chernobyl's radiation cloud drifted across the two continents.

Sherry Beasley is the grants director and foundations coordinator for Clemson University's Provost Office.

Ms. Beasley made four trips with USC to Chernobyl to chronicle and report on the activities.

Her articles were featured in South Carolina's "The State" newspaper.

Rudy Mancke is the naturalist-in-residence for the University of South Carolina and was the host and naturalist on "NatureScene," produced by South Carolina ETV and broadcast nationally on PBS for 25 years.

He made four trips to Chernobyl and recorded a "NatureScene" program there in 2003.

Allen Sharpe was the director of photography for South Carolina ETV's "NatureScene" series that aired on over 300 PBS stations across the United States.

He was part of the SCETV crew that visited Chernobyl, and his photographs and video are used in this series.

Rudy, let's talk about something near and dear to your heart, the natural world.

What has surprised you most about your trips there?

Rudy> Well, I was surprised, I think, like I said earlier, that the damage that was done is not as visible and obvious, except in the Red Forest, the area where there was major amounts of contamination.

There are areas, like Tim was saying, within the exclusion zone that if you look at the plant and animal species there, which I did, they're the same list of plant and animal species that you would have had were you there earlier.

And we went different seasons of the year, which was helpful because certain butterflies fly in the spring or summer or fall, but not all of those times, so it gives you a pretty good sampling.

Dragonflies were another interest of mine.

I'm an old snake guy, so the little viper there was interesting.

So when you just look at it from the natural history standpoint, in many areas of the exclusion zone, you see the same list of species that you saw earlier, with a couple of oddball things.

And to me, coming from America to there, the dominant tree coming into those villages that had been left behind is box elder, which is an American species that in Ukraine, they call it American maple.

It's common.

It's all over the state of South Carolina.

It's all over the eastern two-thirds of the U.S.

It's an invasive species now in an area where radionuclides are really high.

I was a little taken aback by that.

In the city of Chernobyl, that's one of the main trees that lines the street, American maple and the horse chestnut that seems to be pretty common.

It was interesting seeing species like the pines... the Scots pine that was very common there- sandy soils- that was hit pretty hard by radionuclides.

The silver birches seemed less frustrated by it.

Lichens I had read about many times picking up radionuclides, so I did sample... a few lichens outside of the exclusion zone and on in.

And I remember the first trip, we actually had a little counter with us that had a needle on it.

When we started from Columbia, we got a measurement, which was, you know, background.

And then when we were 30,000 feet in the air in the airplane, it was higher.

We got a look in Kiev, and it was higher.

As we drove the 60 miles and just kept checking routinely, it was a little bit higher and a little bit higher.

And then when we got across from the Reactor Number Four, on the little building, the little top area that we could stand on and look out, and turned it on, it pegged.

While we were standing there on the balcony, with this thing pegged, looking at this reactor with leaky red stuff on it that looked like iron that had water running down the front, house martins' nests were right over our head with birds going out catching insects and feeding young.

The house martin population seemed just fine in that area.

It was rather amazing.

At least the numbers were there.

I don't know what they were before, but the show that we did comparing the bird species- and many of them were nesting when we were there- to the list before was really basically the same list.

And as a naturalist, I just look at plant and animal species and see if the same diversity is there that was there before, and I was surprised.

Mark> Tim, is there something about studying avian species- I don't want to use the old phrase "canary in a coal mine" but that could tell us about certain effects it might have on other species or even people?

Has there been something that surprised you?

Dr. Mousseau> You know, so up until... about 2001, 2002, there really had been no research done.

There had been a few species lists generated, and some of the Russian and Ukrainian folks had done a little bit of research, but there really hadn't been much in the way of Western scientists doing ecology there.

And as Rudy says, the most striking thing, you come into the reactor or the observatory overlooking the reactor, and you find house martins nesting there.

So your first thought is, "Man, this couldn't be that bad."

And so we actually started to do some relatively detailed genetic studies first, where we were looking for mutations in birds, primarily birds, primarily the barn swallow to begin with because it's fairly common.

You can find it almost everywhere.

It's easy to collect.

And we started to notice that many of these barn swallows had strange mutations on their bodies that people had never seen before.

Mark> What kind?

Dr. Mousseau> Well, the first ones that were most obvious was they had patches of white feathers, what we call partial albinos, but patches of white feathers that just, hadn't been seen in any of the other populations, and they're very well studied around the world.

And so it was kind of, very, very striking.

Then we started to notice tumors and other kinds of strange abnormalities that people hadn't seen.

So we went a little deeper and actually started to look at the DNA level, and we realized that, at the DNA level, the barn swallows had dramatically elevated rates of mutation.

We expanded this to look at the entire bird community actually and found that many of the bird species showed elevated rates of mutation.

Then we started to look at the Russian literature that had been published and finally was starting to be translated by the mid-2000s and discovered that, yes, indeed, many of the plants and animals had been investigated by the Russians and found to have dramatically elevated mutations.

So at that point, we knew there was something more going on.

It wasn't obvious just by looking at them, and so we actually started to actually go count them, and that had not been done by anybody.

Nobody had gone through these forests and counted the number of birds, numbers of species.

We also looked at insects and mammals and amphibians and reptiles because, again, this kind of basic biology hadn't been done.

So, there are fewer than half the species of birds in these areas that should be there and about one-third as many individuals that should be there, so there's been a major drop-off.

We've looked at survival rates.

They don't live as long.

They age quicker.

And many of the birds that we're seeing in these places are actually coming in every year new.

They're being drawn into this open area and... not surviving particularly well.

That seems to be the bottom line.

A few years ago, we actually started to look at mammals as well.

Again, the same- looking at tracks in the snow to begin with, which was really, one of the most efficient way to look at mammal populations- go there in the winter and look at their little paw prints and count them up.

And sure enough, the mammals are also in much lower numbers than you'd expect.

Rudy> It's interesting when you do things like that.

You have to take a lot into consideration about, the number of sampling places that you go.

I was in Yellowstone.

The elk population is down this year.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with radionuclides.

It's just something that shifts around.

So you do have to factor that in and be careful, and insects fly at certain times of the year and not others.

It's something that needs to be done that has never been done very well because there's very little funding, and there's probably less funding now than there's ever been.

But it's an intriguing place to think about species and how they relate to human beings too, and that, I think, was the other thing that was fun for me to think about.

The commensal species, the species that are always associated with humans, have been for thousands of years in Europe, whenever humans are removed, you don't see those birds anymore.

Mark> What does that say?

Rudy> Well, it's interesting.

Again, it's a... commensal relationship that's been studied better in some parts of the world than others.

But it's interesting that certain bird species live around human habitation, more insect activity there, more food available.

The white storks were interesting because when we were riding in, we saw lots of the big nests.

I mean, you can't help but see them.

They're big sticks piled up.

The only place we ever saw white storks, the birds, sitting on one of those nests was in resettler areas where humans had actually come back, started living there again, and then, lo and behold, these birds that migrate, which means takes any radionuclides they pick up there and go to Africa every year with them and come back, are only nesting in those places where humans are nesting.

House sparrows, the same way.

European starlings, the same way.

Tree sparrows, the same way.

Swallows, connected a lot to human activity because of the ability to get more insects and have more places to build nests, I would suppose.

That's fun to think about too.

I mean, that's another thing you've got to throw in here.

Dr. Mousseau> It's really important because there's definitely those kinds of issues at play.

In fact, one of the reasons we started working in Belarus was because of this concern over the fact that maybe some of the things that we're seeing and other people are seeing relate to the fact that there's a fence around this area and there are no people there.

Whereas in Belarus, where they've encouraged resettlement and the farms are active, there are cows and horses there, and the barn swallow population some of these other populations are much higher, we've looked at them as well and found that their survival rate is also reduced in direct proportion to the background contamination.

The rate of mutations that we see in the blood and the DNA of these birds is higher.

So... clearly some aspects of how abundant they are and when they're found relate to human habitation, but the signal deriving from the radioactive contaminants is really overwhelming.

Rudy> I forgot who said it- I think Dr. Chesser did- that this is a wonderful little natural resource, you know, protected natural area for wildlife.

It's like the Savannah River Site in South Carolina where you've got a fence and most people can't go in and hunting is limited to whatever degree, so you have this opportunity.

When we were there, moose, cow, and calf running across, moose droppings everywhere we looked, frogs croaking in the small ponds, beaver sign as much there as I see anywhere else, the snakes, the turtles, the whatevers that probably were there when that reactor melted down.

I mean, it's interesting to think of it that way too.

I've never really thought of this as a wonderful way to get a natural area... protected, obviously, but this has become- and I hope we take advantage of it- an unbelievable opportunity to see what nature does under these conditions, and the closer we look, the more we're gonna see.

It's just that at this point, 25 years later, the amount of work that's been done, as you suggested, is minimal.

Mark> Tim, would it be a stretch to say that you're one of the three or four leading experts in this field in the entire world?

[Mousseau chuckling] I mean, you've made 25 trips there, this is not widely known science for many people.

Dr. Mousseau> No, I think there are a number of very... active scientists in Eastern Europe, but certainly there's only a handful outside of Eastern Europe working on this topic.

We've been very fortunate, again... initially through the work of Bruce Coull and Rudy and the School of the Environment- Mark> Continued support of the University.

Dr. Mousseau> Continued support- All of the early funding that we had to get started came from those sources.

But more recently through our collaborations with Ukrainian professors at the university there and at the museum, also in Gomel and Minsk, Belarus.

We wouldn't be able to do the work that we've been doing if we hadn't had a lot of cooperation with the people there.

Mark> Allen, a gentleman obviously interested in the natural world and studying what's going on out there in the environment, you as an employee of ETV, as a videographer, you have to come back and put a television program together.

I would imagine that presented some special challenges, but also, what an incredible opportunity for ETV to bring a story that nobody else could bring to the rest of the country.

Allen> Well, you're right.

ETV had a very unusual and rare and at that time, the only opportunity, people had been able to see some of these areas we went to.

There had been a lot of programs done about Chernobyl, basically the reactor and a few other things, but most of the news things, as you know, are in and out, boom-boom.

It's looking for a headline.

But we went to some places and, it looked almost normal.

So the thing we had to do in this "NatureScene" show was to contrast the way it is now, but there was an accident.

And then you go and see the graveyard of all of the vehicles used in that, and you could see even then that they had everything so nice and neatly lined up.

All the trucks- Some of the trucks didn't have hoods and engines anymore, so you kind of wondered about that.

[laughter] And then you'd see a jet engine missing off of one of the helicopters, and I really started to wonder.

But the city of Pryp'yat,' the city of 50,000 people, we went there and did a scene there in front of the merry-go-round the Ferris wheel, and such a stark, stark- I mean... here's a city of 50,000 people.

Mark> A ghost town.

Allen> They were loaded in buses, they were told to pack clothes for a few days, they left, and that's it.

Sherry> One of the most poignant memories I'll always have is in a kindergarten classroom in Pryp'yat.'

And the children's little shoes and their books were still in their little cubbies, like they had just walked out.

Rudy> Whatever happened to be there when we were there, like any other "NatureScene" show we ever do, we got, we picked up, we looked at.

And we talked about connections in the natural world and the mix of things.

We talked a little bit about the history of the area, of course the horrible things that happened in Kiev.

We visited Babi Yar before we had gone out there.

There was so much excitement, in my mind, because it was a mix of history, natural history, and the way human hands have affected this place.

And one of the things that I remember- and I don't know whether this was true or not, but this is what was told to me.

One of the vehicles that we had driven in from Kiev out to Chernobyl was a little low on oil, and they were worried about whether we could get back.

So they went to that little graveyard and got oil out of the vehicle and put it in our vehicle to drive us back to Kiev.

Now, this...

I mean, this is almost magical.

This is the mindset of these people, who have lived through very hard times, and they deserve our help and our support in every way that we possibly can.

Mark> Sherry, do you still have a deep and abiding sense of kinship with this part of the world?

Sherry> Absolutely.

I have dear friends in Russia, and certainly Rimma was a dear friend in Ukraine.

It was very sad to lose her.

But we South Carolinians, thanks to Tim, who took it for us, created a little memorial, which you put it in the center.

Mark> Dr. Smith, let me ask you, as we look back through the lens of history 25 years later, we've talked about what the mood was like there in the Soviet Union in '86.

Does this event resonate with the people there today?

I know exactly in the Ukraine, but what about the folks living in Moscow or St. Petersburg or throughout the rest of Russia?

Was this a seminal event in that part of the world in their history?

Dr. Smith> Undoubtedly it is for the Ukrainians.

After the Soviet Union broke up, the new independent Ukrainian government formed a commission to look at the Chernobyl event, and it was a scathing report against the Russians.

They claimed that all of the mistakes, the lack of guidance, the lack of transparency in reporting on it was all being foisted on them by Russia.

And since the breakup of the Soviet Union, there have been pretty testy relations between Ukraine and Russia.

On the Russian side, they still talk about Chernobyl.

It is an important event, but it doesn't quite have the oomph behind it when Russians are talking about it from their perspective.

It's also interesting, and it hasn't come up in a discussion yet, but much of the folklore that surrounds it, looking back at Chernobyl, you know the word "Chernobyl" in Russian translated... translates as "wormwood," and wormwood appears... in John's Revelation.

At the Apocalypse, the Star of Wormwood crashes into earth causing great fires and rivers that kill enormous numbers of people.

And Russians and Ukrainians too, can be very superstitious.

I wanted to ask Rudy, does wormwood grow?

It's mugwort?

Rudy> Yeah, mugwort is another name for it.

There are a number of different species.

We have relatives in North America.

Dr. Smith> And it must be indigenous to there.

Rudy> Yes, it is, and there are quite a few species that are found there and not really ranging much farther.

Mark> But it could have been the Russian mindset to say you invited this upon yourself.

Dr. Smith> There has never really been a very strong antinuclear awareness in the former Soviet Union.

They tended to be very pro-nuclear energy.

But after the Chernobyl reactor blew up, then we saw the first antinuclear demonstrations occurring in Russia and voices of concern.

Within the city limits of Leningrad, St. Petersburg, there is a Chernobyl-style reactor, and people got kind of panicky about it, and I think, as Eduardo pointed out, the design itself wasn't necessarily a flawed design.

It was an unauthorized exercise that they were running that got out of their control that prompted the explosion.

But average citizens just think, "We don't want a Chernobyl-style reactor in our backyard.

We need to shut this down."

But a huge portion of Russia and Ukraine today rely upon nuclear energy for their electric.

Charles> I think this was a very significant event, probably in some ways more so in terms of the political ramifications that it had.

Mark> Inside the Soviet Union?

Charles> I mean, Rudy and Tim look- well, I'm thinking more between the Soviet Union and the U.S. or the West.

I mean, Rudy and Tim look for natural signs.

I look for political signs.

And I think back on it, and from that day when... we would do our broadcast from the roof of the hotel in Tokyo and it was raining, and we're thinking, "This has drifted from where and means what?"

And it was Reagan who at that point said, "If this is how they treat a disaster in their own country, how will they deal with a missile?

How will they deal with the demilitarization aspects?"

And of course we went on from there to Reagan and Gorbachev meeting that year in Reykjavík, where they went very far towards a massive drawdown in nuclear weapons and then said, "Ooh, let's think about this a little bit," pulled back.

But Reagan and Gorbachev would then meet every year.

They met in Moscow.

They met in Washington.

And the thing that this always reminds me of is that Reagan would say, at various events meeting with Gorbachev, he would say, "Doveryai, no proveryai," perhaps the only three Russian words he knew, which mean "Trust, but verify."

And Gorbachev in one instance said [speaking in Russian] "You always say that!"

[laughter] And Reagan said, "Well, I like the sound of it."

Trust, but verify.

Mark> It's still used very much to this day in political lexicon.

Charles> That's the political legacy of this.

Rudy> I think one thing from the Three Mile Island connection- and I don't remember who the chairman of the committee that studied that was, I don't remember his name- but he said "that the technology is safe, but the people aren't."

And I always thought that when you sum up what happened at Chernobyl and Three Mile Island and other places, maybe that's the simplest way to say it.

Mark> A series of cascading events that eventually got out of control that they never really planned for.

Rudy> As you were saying.

Mark> And Eduardo, let me ask you this.

Is this something you believe that we have learned from Chernobyl, Three Mile Island- something, this next generation of nuclear reactors, we won't have to worry about incidents like this.

Dr. Farfán> Keep in mind that the nuclear industry is a very careful industry, and they have a way to minimize errors, especially human errors... or malfunctions.

So they have a number of ways to do this technically.

I think nuclear industry is the future.

As you can see, the prices for fuel keep going up.

We don't know how expensive it's gonna be next year.

So nuclear industry provides a safe, a very reliable way.

I think you can see a... they call it a "nuclear renaissance."

Nuclear industry is coming back, and we hope to build more nuclear reactors in the States.

Mark> Dr. Mousseau, will this be your career?

I mean, you have dedicated such a large amount of your research time and effort and energy to what has happened there.

Dr. Mousseau> I think I will be continuing as long as they will have me and as long as I can still escape from my other duties to engage in active research.

But it's been a lot of fun.

I've enjoyed it.

Mark> And Rudy, we have no more "NatureScene" per se, but wouldn't you like, one day down the road, perhaps to make one more trip over there- Rudy> Oh, yeah.

Mark> -just to satisfy and peak that curiosity?

Rudy> Absolutely, and I'd love to see the resettlers again, and I'd love to see the lay of the land again and go to the same places that we've been.

We've got the video, so we know exactly where we were standing.

I think it would really be fun to compare what we saw then with what is there now.

♪ > We hope this series has dispelled some of the myths and mysteries surrounding the accident at Chernobyl and that by learning from the past we can prevent a similar event from happening in the future.

Thank you for joining us.

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