[music playing] Kelly: A bit morbid but if you ask today's guest on The Paw Report he'll tell you the job is rewarding, even exciting.

On this episode of the Paw Report, we're joined by Dr. Ian Sprandel, a veterinarian pursuing a specialization in pathology from the University of Illinois Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory.

Dr. Sprandel will spend some time with us discussing necropsies and how they can help explain an animal's death.

Stay with us.

[music playing] Dave's Decorating Center is a proud supporter of the Paw Report on WEIU.

Dave's Decorating Center features the Mohawk SmartStrand Silk Forever Clean carpet.

Dave's Decorating Center, authorized Mohawk Color Center,in Charleston.>>Rameen Karbassioon:Okaw Vet Clinic in Tuscola and Dr. Sally Foote remind you to properly take care of your pets, and are happy to help support the Paw Report on WEIU.

Okaw Vet Clinic, located at 140 West Sale Street, in Downtown Tuscola.

More information available at okawvetclinic.com.

Thanks for joining us for this episode of The Paw Report and I am your host Kelly Runyon.

We appreciate you joining us today.

Topic today is might make people feel a little unnerved, maybe a little morbid but it's some valuable information that we're going to share with you today and our special guest is Dr. Ian Sprandel from the University of Illinois.

Thank you so much for joining us and making the trip to Charleston from Champaign to be with us on this episode.

I always like to share with our viewers a little bit about the doctor and kind of their path to their professional career, so we'll start there.

How did you end up at the U of I?

Ian: Well, I wound up just moving to Champaign, Illinois later in life.

Veterinary medicine is actually a second career for me.

I used to do cellular molecular research back in Philadelphia and for personal reasons we moved out to Champaign and they have a vet school there, pretty darn good one too.

After some wheeling and dealing and figuring out what it took to actually get into veterinary medicine, veterinary school which was quite extensive, I entered the class of 2014, the college of veterinary medicine.

Kelly: But your interest is pathology which, you know, I mean most vets you'd think, oh they probably love dogs and cats and that's their specialty.

You're a little bit different.

Ian: Yeah, and I certainly did not start out that way upon entering veterinary school.

My original idea was I was going to be a mixed animal practitioner that poured my life into the betterment of farmers and to help farmers just with a decent livelihood.

However, my second year, I'll be honest, I didn't even know pathology was a thing upon entering veterinary school but my second year I was really exposed to pathology because that's what we focus in our curriculum at the University of Illinois.

In our second year we learn about pathology, I was introduced to the science, the discipline, and the pathologist themselves which was a major factor, really good group of people.

In my second year is when it really started to solidify that this is the career trajectory for me, I want to actually be a pathologist.

Kelly: Today, we're actually talking about necropsies.

I have to keep saying it over and over in my mind because I want to say autopsy but they're different.

So what is the difference between a necropsy and an autopsy?

Ian: That depends on who you ask.

It's really a difference of semantics and there are some people that say there is no difference, that you can use the words relatively interchangeably and there are some veterinary pathologists that refer to the procedure as performed as an autopsy itself.

However, in general, an autopsy is reserved for a post-mortem examination of a human specimen and a necropsy is reserved for a post-mortem examination of an animal specimen.

Now I use the word post-mortem examination in there to kind of define what we do and there are some people, some veterinary pathologists that believe that we should not even use the term autopsy or necropsy, that post-mortem examination is actually the correct term.

But in general, the rule is people say necropsy for an animal post-mortem examination.

Kelly: Who can perform them?

Ian: Generally, well, anybody can but it's generally performed by either a veterinary pathologist and an anatomic pathologist which I can talk about later or a general practitioner veterinarian is more than capable of performing a necropsy examination.

However, veterinary pathologist are more highly trained to that examination.

Kelly: What are the biggest challenges for you when you have to conduct a procedure like this?

Ian: Well, at the university level, we are employing the help of fourth year veterinary students.

It's a rotation.

In their fourth year, they go through to gain exposure to pathology in the clinical pathology setting or necropsy examinations and it's basically just managing my time and answering tons of questions.

Other than that it is a steep learning curve of knowing what diseases affect different animals and efficient use of time, not wasting your time on running down dead ends.

An efficient use of time is probably the big one there.

Kelly: A little bit morbid but can you take us through step by step on what you have to go through to perform a necropsy?

Ian: Absolutely.

I'll use a standard mammalian necropsy like a cat, dog, horse, pig as an example.

The procedure might change a little bit.

If it's of course a small animal like a mouse or obviously a snake is quite different.

However, at the onset we record the date time and we have little implements by which we can do this cleanly.

And then we'll perform a physical examination as your regular veterinarian would in the clinic.

So just examine the outside of the animal, the oral cavity, just feel for lumps and bumps and external lesions.

Then once we feel comfortable that we've detected all that we can without making any incisions into the animal, then we'll actually start the internal examination where we basically open the body cavities up and looking at the thoracic cavity and the abdominal cavity and look at the organs as we'd say in situ or as they are without really touching them to see if there's any kind of like displacement or something that we would need to examine the entire architecture of what's going on.

Then once we feel comfortable, if there are no displacements or torsions and twisted up things going on, that's when we start looking at individual organ systems.

Often what we'll do right then and there and people have different orders that they do this thing in and some people will say you've got to do it this way because X, Y, and Z, other people.

But the way I generally perform them is I take fresh samples of all the major organs, like lung, liver, kidney, spleen, gastrointestinal tract, heart and I'll collect those with sterile implements and sequester those and those will be frozen back or I'll submit those for tests right then and there if I deem it necessary.

That way if later I be like, oh I want to run this test on that organ, I have that.

That hasn't gone to cremation or burial or into a book of formalin.

Then once I've collected all those major organs I'll start systematically examining all the other organs to see if there's major lesions within the organs.

If it's a solid organ or a parenchymas organ like the liver or the lungs, we'll examine the surface and then make regular incisions at pretty regular intervals to make sure that there's not a lesion on the internal aspect.

If there is a lesion, I might collect that, I might save it back fresh so that I could run like bacteriology on it or virology later or I'll also take a section of that and put that in a bucket of formalin so I can examine that at a microscopic level histologically later on.

If it's a hollow organ, I'll make the GI tract, I'll make an incision into that so I can examine the inner aspect as well as the outer aspect.

So we pretty much look at every bit of the organ that we can.

So those are the major abdominal organs.

If we have clinical suspicion, Ideally we also open all joints and look for arthritis or synovitis or swollen joint, stuff like that and also we'll look at the brain later too.

But we will take the entire tongue and esophagus and trachea as it's hooked up to the lungs in the heart, take that out in one solid piece and what not too.

Kelly: And review that as well.

Ian: Right.

Kelly: Do you make a complete diagnosis in every case that you encounter?

Ian: No, but quite often.

Our success rate is pretty darn high.

I would say in about three quarters of the cases that we would receive, we're going to make a definitive diagnosis.

The other cases, the 25% that we don't, those aren't a waste of time because we can at least say that okay, there's no major infectious or inflammatory lesions here or we haven't seen any type of major cancers that are facing large organs too.

So even though we might not be able to get a definitive diagnosis, we can definitely rule things out.

We'll also test for, if we have no idea what happened, we'll test for some of the more common things that might not really leave lesions or we'll submit something for bacteriology to just throw a wide net and at least be able to rule out this that or the other thing, which can be quite valuable.

For example, well over a year ago there was an outbreak of canine influenza.

It hit harder up north so I think they saw more cases in Chicago.

Now there we were able to make a definitive diagnosis and say that it was canine ... Kelly: It was the flu.

Ian: Yeah, the flu because we had a precise test but let's say we did not have a specific test for canine influenza, we can still see histological lesions and what not.

It's still valuable to rule cases out.

Kelly: How do you get cases presented to you?

Meaning, if I'm just an individual, my dog passed away, I was very close to my dog and let's say I wanted a necropsy done on my animal or is it farmers or is it other researchers that come to you?

What kind of patients are you seeing?

Patients maybe isn't the right word, clients.

Ian: Yes to all of the above actually.

We have two main streams of workflow that come into us.

One would be through the Veterinary Teaching Hospital.

And those are the range of species that they would get.

Cats, dogs, horses, pigs, cattle.

Through the exotic services, ferret, guinea pigs, snakes.

Oftentimes, we'll get submissions through the Veterinary Teaching Hospital but by all means we get submissions from outside referring veterinarians or actual individual owners or farmers themselves.

Trust me, a lot of the people that own herds of cattle ... Kelly: They want to know.

Ian: They want to know and they have the number, the Veterinary diagnostic laboratory.

Now all that information has to get mediated through referring veterinarian so we don't release our data or our findings to clients themselves.

That has to be communicated through their referring veterinarian.

Even if somebody were to just come in with their dead pig and want to find out what's wrong here, they would still need to mediate that through a veterinary.

Kelly: I would say probably one of the gratifications for you and your job is the research end of this, is yes, giving a pet owner peace of mind so to speak of what happened to their animal but I would think even beyond that is what you can do in your lab to maybe help prevent the spread of or future deaths.

Am I accurate in that?

Ian: Absolutely.

We as veterinary pathologist and anatomic pathologists performing these necropsies have our finger on the pulse of what's happening.

In fact, in the pathology team at the University of Illinois Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory, we have weekly rounds where we discuss herd health issues so that even if I was not there last week I know if the pathologist on last week got a bunch of pigs and then if I get some, I can make a call be like, is this the same owner.

We really do prioritize those herd health issues, triage them and put them at the top of our list, like we have to get this one done first, get this information out as quickly as possible.

So, there's that herd health aspect.

Absolutely you're correct about the peace of mind for pet owners, that's no small factor, that's very important.

Also, kind of related to the herd health issue, although it may not be herd health related, we kind of are the gate keepers of what's epidemiologically happening around.

So if we see a rise in incidences of some type of tumor, we can even kind of keep track of that and we're the ones that kind of see what's happening more often.

Sometimes we'll get cases that are, wow that was weird and research a little bit and wow, that's the second case ever that's been reported in the literature.

That gets our gears turning, wow, we should publish this case report or whatnot.

Those are the kind of cases you remember but it's kind of seeing this common cases and keeping track of what's out there in the environment and in the community that's really rewarding.

Kelly: I like the word weird that you used.

Do you have any memorable cases that you've actually worked on and I think there was one involving a tiger.

Ian: Yeah, that's the one I'd put at the top actually.

Kelly: Top of the list.

Ian: Top of the list.

It's funny you say the tiger.

The cases that stick out the most are of course the weird ones.

But the bread and butter are the pneumonian cattle, the fungal disease in dogs.

University of Illinois is a really interesting place.

Our diagnostic lab gets an incredible variety of species.

You mentioned tiger.

There's a facility that we deal with quite often that rescues exotic felines and whenever one dies, we perform the post-mortem examination or necropsy on the animal.

The fourth year students when these animals, when these tigers or lions come in, they're like, wow, a tiger, a lion.

I'm kind of like, poor tiger, poor lion.

And then another part of me is like, well, this is just a cat because they get the same things that cats get.

They just weigh a lot more and it's a lot more labor.

There was one time that tiger came in.

We knew it was coming and we're pretty familiar with this facility and with the people that volunteer there and drive them there and when it arrived, it wasn't dead.

So there was this compact S.U.V.

with, it wasn't exactly kicking, this tiger was on its last legs.

It actually did pass away the next day and I was fortunate enough to perform the necropsy on the tiger.

There was that case and then there's just bizarre cases.

I've performed necropsy on a porcupine.

I had to get Kevlar gloves for that one.

And then there was the time that we got a submission from somebody in the department of D.N.R., the Department of Natural Resources.

They found a dead fox, a hawk, a catfish and some other animal within like 10 feet of each other.

They were all pretty decomposed so we weren't able to get answers on any of them but it was kind of fun just making up a story like, well, the fox ... Kelly: The fox attacked this ... Ian: Yeah.

They flew into the wall.

The sheer variety that we get, it keeps you on your toes and I'm always thinking, wow, I have so much more to learn, which is true.

There's always so much more to learn but it's never dull.

A bit morbid but never dull.

Kelly: Along those lines, there probably is some things that you'd like to share with pet owners because it is morbid and there are probably some things that you can say to them to help ease their mind when you do perform a procedure like this.

Some people might think it could be violent but you're very sensitive to the animal's body.

Ian: Absolutely.

It's a very respectful procedure.

Not to say that it's cold and clinical but it is in many ways we're performing this set way every time and we're professionals so we treat this with as much seriousness as your surgeon would when they approach a surgery on a live animal.

That's the level of care and diligence that we go into this procedure with.

It is something that will be done with care and respect and compassion.

We want to get the right answer for the client and for the community in general.

Yes, we are generally opening up body cavities, removing organs, performing exact measurements on those organs but if the client, if the pet owner desires we will return all those organs intact, not mixing them up with other animals, it's always individualized, compartmentalized and if the owner wants, they can have that animal cremated and retain keep sake says they normally would, without the necropsy procedure, they could bury their animal.

So, there's a lot of care and respect that goes into it.

And a lot of people just think, oh, I can't have that done to my pet.

If that's the truth, I'll respect that.

I would never push and I would never counsel referring veterinarians to push the procedure.

However, I would have them maybe give strong recommendations and try to talk to owners about why this is important.

I realize also this is a sensitive time.

Owners are distraught.

It's the time of the death of their animal so this can be difficult and I'm not immune to those factors out there and if it's not the right thing to do, it's not the right thing to do.

But for owners, there can be the peace of mind.

I rarely had owners regret having it done.

Most are very thankful in the end.

I did this, this was the right way to gain some closure as far as the life story of my pet.

And, there is also the option of something called a cosmetic necropsy.

It's generally something I don't recommend all that often because it does hamper our diagnostic ability.

Let's say if there's gastrointestinal pathology or where at least focused on something going on down there, we can get to that pretty easily and make an incision and remove organs, examine them histologically and make closures that would be cosmetic and can return the body looking as it would when it was submitted at first.

So, that is an option.

Kelly: You know, we just have a couple of minutes left and you mentioned a word that kind of leads me into this next question is difficult.

This job has to be difficult for you the doctor, the vet performing these too.

It can be very stressful.

Ian: It can be very stressful because we need to get an answer first and foremost and another aspect of it which can be a little bit more difficult for a veterinary pathologist.

When I set my sights on pathology my second year, I realized this, I'm like, okay, I'm not going to working with live animals.

That's part of the joy of veterinary medicine.

It's tempered with a lot of hard decisions and what not but often you get to see, every now and then you get to vaccinate that puppy and pet that kitten.

I don't get to do that.

So that is the bad with a good on that one.

Kelly: And vets nationwide go through stress and being on the job like this too which I don't think a lot of people realize that there's a lot of stresses to the job that comes with it.

Ian: Yes, there is, for a lack of better words an epidemic that's rampant in veterinary medicine that I don't think the general public is all that aware of and that is the level of stress depression and suicide within the veterinary profession.

It's markedly elevated compared to the rest of the population.

Myriad reasons for this many are are such as the stress, the hours.

Even human doctors, there's a lot of death within human medicine too but as a veterinarian, even as a general practitioner, you're seeing multiple lives pass by your eyes in the course of 20 years.

So you can see from birth to death and just so seeing that entire process and the end of it can kind of weigh on veterinarians a lot.

Also there's, you know, especially at the time of extreme sickness and death owners are very distraught.

They're very stressed out and sometimes they feel guilty and I think it's just natural to kind of come into that and transpose some of those stresses onto your veterinarian and maybe not even treat them as you would like to, going home thinking, "Oh, I probably shouldn't have said that to my veterinarian."

We take that with us and that really can hurt us I think in the end and it's just a repeated exposure to that level of stress coming from clients.

And then there's, absolutely not everybody but there's a subset of our clients that just get angry and take that to the extreme and say stuff like, "Well, they're just in this for the money, they're pushing these products."

Nothing could be further from the truth.

If veterinarians were in it for the money, we would definitely choose another career because it's really not that as lucrative as you might think.

There's crushing student debt which is rising all the time.

It's a major problem.

So veterinarians are having a hard time balancing their own checkbooks.

The overhead that goes into owning and operating a veterinary practice is very high so these prices for these diagnostic tests and procedures, they are what they are for a reason.

We're not making a fortune on this.

Treat your veterinarian well, they deserve it.

Kelly: Some valuable insight today and maybe we encourage somebody who maybe experiences a death within their own family to maybe seek out some help and seek out additional answers and you put that into perspective so thank you, Dr. Sprandel for joining us.

Ian: Thank you very much, Kelly.

Kelly: All right.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Paw Report, we'll see you next time.

If you're a veterinarian, trainer, groomer, specialist, rescue organization, or shelter that would like to partner with the Paw Report by providing expert guests for the show, please contact us by emailing weiu@weiu.net, or call 217-581-5956.

If you have a topic you'd like to see on the show or questions for our experts, contact us with those, too.

[music playing] Kelly:In this Paw Report extra, you've heard of cats getting stuck in trees but dogs.

Well, it did happen in Salem, Kentucky, take a look.

Two off duty state troopers were doing work at a cemetery when they heard some barking.

They investigated and found this cute face sticking out of a tree.

Initial attempts to free the dog were unsuccessful so they called in the fire department.

A firefighter then cut a hole in the trunk of the tree so they could pull the pup out.

The dog named Rocco was reunited with his owner.

In case you're wondering how Rocco ended up inside the tree, apparently, he crawled in through a groundhog hole.

>>Rameen Karbassioon:Okaw Vet Clinic in Tuscola and Dr. Sally Foote remind you to properly take care of your pets, and are happy to help support the Paw Report on WEIU.

Okaw Vet Clinic, located at 140 West Sale Street, in Downtown Tuscola.

More information available at okawvetclinic.com.

Dave's Decorating Center is a proud supporter of the Paw Report on WEIU.

Dave's Decorating Center features the Mohawk SmartStrand Silk Forever Clean carpet.

Dave's Decorating Center, authorized Mohawk Color Center,in Charleston.

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