- Thank you for joining us for another Oh I'm Ygal Kaufman from Ideastream Public Media.

Today we're talking about the issue of math literacy and how parents can encourage math literacy in their children, especially We're going to talk about how they can create habi that will lead them to success in the f Joining me today for that discussion, we have Brian Bickley from the as well as Education Tech consultant Katie Kormanik.

Let's get started.

Brian, our first question I'm wondering what would you say is things in terms of math literacy.

Are kids into math?

What's the directi - From a state perspective, we certainly have seen from yo u know, our ELA recovery is getting better.

Our students are getting closer, if not back to the pre pandemic in the area of reading.

Whereas in math, we're still not there.

So we're trying to make more of a concerted effort at the department to try to help r in completing some of the unfinished learning as a result of the pandemic and its impact on our instruction as an educational community.

And so some of the things we're doing at the department is, you know, we certainly have a lot of initiatives.

A few in particular related to elementary math We have a tutoring program that's really initiated out of higher ed using some of their pre-service to go into schools and work with students, you know, in small numbers like one, two, or three a to help really get them that more intensive support to help fill some of the learning gaps as a result of the pandemic.

We also have an intervention opportunity for six-ei that'll be starting early in 2024 to help get students that intervention support in middle school in terms of our kids into math, I think a lot of that depend and their attitude toward it.

If it's very, you know, cold and proce you may not have a lot of enthusiasm, but if you show students the math and how it really it's everywhere.

It's everywhere in their day-to-day lives, and you allow 'em that opportunity to exp really value the process and the varying approaches.

I think it can become, you know, almost like an education There's a lot of different ways you can sol very routine, familiar problems and it can be fun to engage in those disc at any grade level, kindergarten all the way through coll - Now, we recently had a webinar that dealt with the issue and so the question is could educational entert that we create interest in math for students?

Do you think that there's a way to turn that screen time problem maybe into a win on math literacy?

- There are certainly some children's programming out there that really do get a nice, you know, fun comical breath of fresh air approach into elementary math concepts, number blocks.

And I think like number chains.

There's another number themed an d early elementary aged program out there, and they really do a lot with arrays or base 10 blocks as sort of the characters in the story to, you know, emphasize the counting structure and groupings of students.

And that's a nice way to sort of explore and introduce some elementar but also with screen time, I'd say, you know, there's a de If the screen time is spent overwhelmingly on procedural fluency without the accompanying conceptual understanding, then, you know, I think you're getting back to, is math meant to be more of a study of the ability to solve relevant real world problems and in the solving be able to communicat those diverse approaches to problem solving?

Or is it more about answer getting.

And if it's imbalance to I think that's where we, we turn a lot of students off.

- Katie, what do you think about this question in terms of screen time?

Are there online r other than TV programming can help children to develop their math skills?

- I have yet to see games that can really teach kids everything they need to know to get that conceptual I think it can be a nice supplement, like a new way of looking at some or visualizing something.

But to really understand math and to be ex I think it really has to be the way it's talked about, especially at home where when parents talk about math, they're excited, like, let's solv and build this growth mindset or this mindse I wanna solve a problem and we can do it as a family and it can be a fun activity.

It doesn't have to have all thes where we need all these things to make kids excited a It's kind of like taking vegetables and loading it with sugar so that kids like it better.

Like that's not really a good idea.

They need to understand the fundamentals and ideally enjoy really grasping that.

So I just think like with lots of practice of those fundamentals and once kids really get an d that light bulb goes off and they get excited that yes, they did it, they solved this problem.

I think that serves as a reinforcing loop to make them even more excited about solving more pro without all these bells and whistles, without games and things lik And one resource that I really like is just the letters and they have tons of problems and exercises that are free and it also shows what kids should know at each level.

So pre-k, kindergarten, first grade.

So I think that's a really good resource.

- Can you tell me a little bit more about what you were It sounds like a math-rich is what would foster the best outcomes for kids.

Can you describe that a little more in depth?

What does a math rich environment look - Yeah.

First of that is spoken about positively.

Like there are so many opportunities day to day to talk positively about math and just incorporate it into just the regular conversation.

Like baking, personal finance.

I know personal finance is a big thing that a lot of people are scared about or they don't wanna talk about, or just like math, it's kind of a daunting thing.

But the more it can be talked about, like, we wanna save a hundred dollar like, are we on track for that?

Or We wanna save 20%, you know, that can just embed these math concepts into just day-to-day living.

Did you brush your teeth for two minutes?

Has it been two minutes?

How many seconds did you spen Like there's so many things that parents can talk about with their kids that are just, it might not seem like math, - I think for some people math is stressful even when you're an adult.

So creating that math-rich because if as an adult you lack confidence in your math proficiency, how do you inspire confiden Do you have some input on that?

- Yeah, so I think it's very common for parents to be daunted about math too.

So I think the way they approach it, they don't have to know all the bu t it can be something where th but let's solve it together and let's see if lik you and I can figure it out together.

And it's an activity.

So if they approach it with I think the kids will too.

- Yeah, and to echo kind of what K I think a lot of it can be valuable when you place the emphasis around the different approaches to problem solving and the thinking and not always, you know, the speed or the automaticity, but rather, okay, here's how I address the problem.

Here's how I thought of it in my head, or here's how I went about solving And you can have that discourse between members of the family and adults, teachers and students, you know, students and community members.

Because the one nice thing with math, just like so many other situations in the there's more than one way to go about solving it and addressing it.

And by h to problem solving, you're valuing the thinking, you're evaluating the approach that each learner is taking to solving it.

And I think that puts a yo u know, the art form that math can be there.

There's a lot of different ve ry common problems.

- Well, I think in addition to this q of whether or not they're good at math, some parents find helping their wi th math is difficult because their children are doing math in ways that they don't reco and using methods that they don't recognize.

So can you talk a little bit about how these things have re and whether they're really di or is it just different pack - I would say I wonder if just with just remembering where stud in the learning progression.

And so the parents h of math learning and because they have that extra experience, you know, they know some of the shortcuts or they've a the mathematical thinking and they figured out ways that they can flexibly problem solve, whereas the student is still in that beginning stage.

And so for a student, they may have a problem-solving strategy that that will likely appear inefficient to the adult.

But for the student, that is their efficient method.

And, you know, for some students they may be at that early phase of learning where the concrete or the is their preferred entry point to problem solvi Whereas the adult is already at that symbolic, they don't need to draw the picture because they have advanced to where they can use the more eff And that's fine in both cases.

And that's where that dialogue comes in.

This is how I thought about versus this is how, you know, somebody else thinks about it.

And you can just use something as simple as, you know, show me three quarters.

And one person may write, you know, three circles with 25 in the center to repre Another person may draw a picture split into quarters and shade three of the four, somebody else may write And then four underneath is the denominator three-fourths of a whole.

And those are all co But now we talk about the thinking and the equivalence and the different representati and really valuing the thinking and the appro and not necessarily always just, well, which is right They're all right.

They all answered the question tha They just thought about it differentl of all ability levels are gonna think differently.

And that's okay.

And that - Yeah, I think that math can be creative.

A lot of people don't realize that.

It might be, they might think of it as black and white, like there's like, there's a problem, find th But yeah, there's so many ways to get to the solution.

Sure there might only be one solution, but there are different ways of So I think math is one way to actually boost that creative mindset and have a lot of discou about different ways of solving a problem.

- Katie, what would you say, do you have an can successfully support their child wi perhaps if they don't recognize the methods?

- Yeah, I think if the parent is comfortable with it, they can and should read the way that the teacher is trying to explain a particular concept.

I think it's fine to tell the student this is the way I would do it, but I've seen oftentimes there's that the kid needs to learn and it's all valid.

Like 'cause like Brian said, there are different ways of So I would encourage the parent to like read and try to understand it.

If they don't know, I have full co with their kid and then together they can solve the problem with that method that the teacher's trying to teach.

- Brian just recently mentioned pictorial learning, for inst One of the questions that had been suggested to us is sort of a specific question.

Is it okay if my elementary school c or other shortcuts to count or do math problems?

And at what age would we expect to see that end?

- I mean, I think it's totally fine.

If they're just starting to learn, then yeah, any way of exploring math physically, like on their fingers is great.

And eventually they won't need to use their fingers.

It really depends on what age they start I guess.

If someone doesn't learn to count until they're 30 years old, then a 30-year old might be using the I mean hopefully by then they know how to count.

But I think there's just a process by w and everyone is unique.

So if they wanna learn on their finger that will help them get that fundamental understanding and then from there they might not need those tools, but everyone's at their own pace and has their own ways.

So whatever works.

- Is there any place in modern pedagogy for the to utilize memorization?

I think in the past there was a cert on some of this stuff that kids should just Like if we ask them nine times five they should just know 45 without having to work through i in their head.

Is there any w a healthy amount of memorization?

- Do you think it's important to have those just down?

'Cause otherwise it can really slow you down with more advanced math.

I remember when I was five, my dad made me do 15 minutes of jus There was this bar that went down and I had like, sometimes just a few seconds to answer the question, but I really knew my multiplication and division and that served me very well going forward.

At the same time, like students need to understand what they're doing.

They sho without knowing what that really means in practice.

But like nine groups of five or five groups of nine.

But yeah, I think memorizing things is important to a certain extent as long as they un - With your math problem of, you know, what is five times nine back to, respecting the different approaches.

You could five times nine, math fact, I just know it, it's automatic.

Versus, well maybe a stud but they need to skip count by fives.

We start skip counting by fives in in Ohio with the second grade standards, maybe they're still skip co and they need, they go 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, it's 45.

Another student's gonna look at that and sa or sorry, nine is close to 10, five times 10 is I'm gonna subtract five and I get to 45.

And again, you're having those mathematical al l of the different ways I can get to 45.

And what's also nice is maybe somebody else needs to, you know, they need to draw out their nine rows of five or five rows of nine depending on, you know, whether you want horizontal or vertic in your array or your area model.

And those are all appropriate 'cause that's where the student is i Some may need those supports.

And what's also nice is, well, for the learner who says it's 45, I just know it, that's wonderful.

Show me, prove it.

Convince me.

I'm not certain it I think it's something else.

And now you have to have that again, you're challenging them with that discourse, prove it, and justify, your reasoning.

But now you have to justify it in another way because, you know back something I said mathematics is really about learni to solve diverse problems and become a strong communicator.

And for that student who just knows it okay, well you know it, but now you have to co So you have to explain it maybe in another way because your way is not familiar to who you're trying to convince.

And so it's really placing that value and that impo on the different mathematical thinking and approaches of problem solving that there are for a variety of problems.

And many of them can be those routine familiar probl that we know like nine times five or somethin you know, far more complicated.

What's the, you know what's the for a destination or we've got so much time to get our chores done, how do I, you know, how do I do do that the most efficiently?

And it doesn't matter, you know, there's every day the rest of your life.

It's the world we - Katie, you mentioned your father sort of quizzed you or he gave you activities to do.

Can you talk a little bit practically speaki I think some parents are comfortable doing that.

Other parents probably feel there's no way to be able to get their kid to sit down and d So what are some ways that parents can get practical effects of what you did with your father?

- Yeah, my dad actually bought me textbooks from a very early age.

So he would go to like the thrift store I don't know where he found them, but he would get just, he'd come home with a box of books and he would have me pick one and just go through it at my own pace.

Or sometimes he'd, you know, challenge me like get An d I think it was this, it was a subtle encouragement, like you can learn on your own and math is important.

So that really helped me.

It was like brushing my teeth, like just practicing math and learning ma was just part of my everyday expectation and it helped me learn to self study for one thing, which served me really well just throughout my whole life.

And my dad actually rarely helped me.

I don't remember him helping me at all with my math when I would just g and I don't necessarily think this is what every parent should but I think there are ways to show kids that math is important and by like giving them tools to practice and encouraging it every day you're kind of reinforcing that behavior.

So I guess one analogy, I have a nine month-old son now and he started solids when he was six months old.

And of course when they first start they spit it out and the advice is just every day just keep to give it to them, don't give up and eventually they'll start eating.

So I think it's similar with math, like you just, even if they say no, I am not gonna do math today, maybe they won't, but try it again the next day, try it again the next day.

Just constan - Yeah, you know, materials are great, but also, you know, for parents and review and select and identify mater using the world around you, you know, the grocery store is re al world classroom.

If you've got pre-K through having them go and help you count out six oranges, or I need 12 apples, or I need three cucumbers, or we wanna make something for dinner and we need five peppers, so go count me out five peppers where some yellow and some red in there and let them, you know, kind of problem solve that way because it's a relevant real-world envir to be able to count and to see the applications in a way that's very meaningful for them beyond just school.

You could even continue that as you get students in, you know, grades 3, 4, 5, everywhere you look in a grocery store is gonna be an array, an area model.

It's gonna be something that reinforces groupings.

And so, okay, you know, is it three rows of four or four rows of three with the eggs or is it, nope, it's six rows of two.

You know, how do they see it?

Why do they see it that way?

Just being a in a way that's very meaningful as you think about, you know, moving away from numbers for a minute, geometry, you know, what shapes and and in a grocery store.

You shou and where are those in the real world environment, you know, just as you're going kind of up and down the aisle or, you know, elapsed time, if you've got students, you kn third grade and beyond or just even t in elementary school, teaching them how to tell time, you know, okay, we were at the store, we walked in at 157 and we were there What time is it gonna be?

You know, what time wa Just getting them to just see these a these are real world uses of the math you're lea in elementary and you don't have to really do a whole lot of additional effort to illustrate that to students 'cause it's everywhere.

It just a matter of getting them t - That reminded me of one thing my dad would do also when we were on road trips and we could see the road My dad would point to this landmark like, see that tree?

How many miles away do you think it is?

And we would guess, and it'd b and then we'd see who won.

So that was just a fun li math exercise and there's so many ideas like that that Brian reminded me of.

- Brian, earlier you mentioned briefly the issue of recovering from pandemic learning los The next question really is if you can assess briefly the level of learning loss was for most kids in that elementary school range?

And what can parents do to make up groun What's the long-term outlook on that?

- Some of the data we're seeing from the department, you know, certainly the lower elementary grade students, they seem to have struggled slightly more than maybe the middle school or the high school which those grade bands struggled tremendously But some of it, I wonder were just, you know, they wer at the time.

They were whereas some of their older siblings or older students in the school system may have been able to use some of the technology like YouTube or, you know, Khan Academy has some wonderful like short videos if I just want to see another wording of a concept or see another application just to help build a preliminary understanding where our middle school students and high school students could do that.

They cou with each other and they could have that discou peer to peer to try to, you know, problem so I'm not necessarily sure that som were as equipped to do that.

And so it was probably more of an adjustment because it, it was so new to them and they were thrust upon, you know, an unprecedented situation.

Another thing I think that really impacted our elementary students was at an age when a lot of the learning should be heavily incorporating physical and pictorial, you know, virtual concrete manipulatives.

Some of the schools had trouble really using those with regularity because of the possible of exposure contamination.

If you've got students may in the early pandemic have been not feeling great and they're touching number cubes, linking cubes, you know, base 10 blocks and anything of that sort, and then you're going right to the next period and you haven't really an d you're just spreading the So , you know, our elementary learners, they had a maybe a little bit harder time, you know, we're certainly trying to identify where some of those areas of unfin and provide some supports to help get them back on track.

But you know, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a while.

'cause with math, a lot of And so, you know, if you have a gap in an earlier year, you know, there's gonna be times where we c to help reinforce without necessarily going and reteaching in the lower grade level.

But you know, that takes time, th from teachers and it's not always easy to have to go and create all those scaffolds and supports, you know, with all the other demands right now on our teachers.

- Katie, I'm guessing as a consultant, this is something that you've Can you weigh in on what parents can do?

- Yeah, that's a really difficult challenge I feel for the parents that were at home and their kids couldn't go to school.

And yeah, I think, I think what we've talked about today, just always having a positive mindset about math.

Just, you know, trying your best.

That's all you can really do.

And, you know, being disciplined about prioritizing, learning over the many other distractions.

Like kids have the Oculus Quest these days and so many gadgets and they wanna text their friends, you know, I think it's just generally being a parent that is the day-to-day thing to do.

Like be the best parent you can, which I'm sure everyone already is Try to get your kids to prioritize their learning and growing.

It's hard.

I mean I only have a nine but I'm sure like I'll encounter - Speaking of specific techniques, does using a reward system work, for instance, not allowing a child to play with their video games until they've done some math, does doing things like that jus for the reward as opposed to a desire to do Or is that somehow a way parents can balance these things that are competing for their child's interest?

- Yeah, I think it's an interim solution, especially for kids that just don't wanna do math, then yeah, do what you have to do.

If it's like, get them to do their math firs play on their quest or go out with their friends, then that might be what it takes.

But at the same time reinforce, when they've done their math, like reward them positively with praise.

Like, wow, you did that, you did that by yourself or like you did such a great job.

Like take the shift away from the quest when you're praising them instead of jumping straight to, okay, good, now you can play with your quest.

Like really emphasize that the fact that they've done their math and they did a and they tried and they're doing great and then yeah, maybe eventually they won't need the quest or some, you know, carrot dangling in front of them to do their homework.

- The next question is what should a child or what should they know by the time they exit elementary school and move on to middle school?

Can you give us some benchmarks or some practical guidelines - Yeah and so we have the Ohio Learning Standards in Ohio, and those are what has been adopted by the State Board of Education that identifies what stu and be able to demonstrate at the end of a grade level or high school course for that matter when they get old enough in terms of, you know, what s that'll give you a framework.

And what we kind of recogn going to leave every grade level proficient or you know, probably not.

That's j So, okay, where are they in the learning progression and what do they need to do to get to the next phase?

And those are really good conversations to have with your classroom Wh ere are they in their demonstration of this topic?

How are they, you know, how are they mathema And we'll give like an example, I have a pre-K s they do some geometry work, which is sorting.

So you know, whether she doesn't need to know that we do this for this reason, but one of her chores is she has to So she has to sort based on criteria.

Sometimes her criteria is she puts forks with forks and spoons with spoons and butter knives with butter knives.

Other times if any parent is listening you, you know, you know, sometimes it's the dump.

I put all the silverware in the 'c ause that's and you know, that was my sorting But we talk about, you know, why and we just get that discourse Wh y did she group the way And just have her explain her thinking and her reasoning.

So it's not like I'm having her do academic work as a reward or a punishment, but having her do academic work, because ag that's relevant real world stuff.

You're gonna grow up, you're yo u're gonna need to clean them, you need or put 'em wherever yo Or same thing with my elementa okay, you've got laundry, where are you gonna sort your c you know, socks go with socks and pants go with pants and shirts go with shirts.

He's third We're just But we're working toward it and we're letting, we're letting them kind of make some of those decisions and having the conversations around why and doing the parenting.

But also, you there is that academic component behind it.

Since third grade deals with elapsed time doing a lot more questioning with him every morning, getting ready for school of, okay, what time What time do you need to be ready?

How many minutes do And if you have to brush your teeth, find your socks, find your shoes, get your coat and brush y well then how much time does that leave for you to watch your iPad then get you have more time for iPad.

But him kind of being able to mak but make it in the context of, okay, well it's a I need to know how to tell time.

I need to I need to figure out what I w you know, the appropriate decisions given what he has to do to be ready to go for school as opposed to, you know, doing anything where we ever, I don't ever wanna make it appear that like, you know, academic work is meant to be a pu or an add-on, but rather, you know, let's find a way to make it its own You know, if we're reading for 20 minut it's gonna be a book, you know, what's a book that you wan What's a story that you want to re Then let's get it from the library and like early in the pa you know, sometimes that meant we read co I definitely, we read the Planet Hulk comic book 'cause that's what he wanted to read.

So that's what he was reading.

And then after that we find some that's less - Is there any benchmark that parents should look out for that may be a sign that their kids need to be steered back onto the path Is there something that they should be able to do by a certain age or someth at least showing by a certain age?

- And I'd probably keep coming back to learning as a It's a process.

Students are gonna be, you know, probably on track in certain areas, maybe need a little bit of help in oth and they may be slightly ahead in other areas.

That's sort of what to be Bu t how do we reinforce, how do we support?

And I think that's where it comes back to the earlier placing more of that emphasis on the mathematical thinking and the diverse approaches to pro because, you know, there's often more than one way to solve a problem.

And so I or an unrelated problem.

Well now I can app or unfamiliar context that I didn't really realize before, but now I'm starting to make those co And that's where having that conversation adults, caregivers, parents, families with your students in showing the different ways that you think about it.

Because that will reinforce the mathematical connections for the students.

So that if there is something they're st they have a strategy or a support to provide them an entry point into problem solving.

They at least know where to begin.

And and they've worked to deve whether it's formal or informal.

And especially with elementa it's probably gonna which is okay 'cause they're learning, they but they can communicate where they're beginning in t why they're beginning and they can start to communicate why they're stru Because that's a big thing Th ey struggle.

They don and they don So they suffer in sile - Some kids and even some adults say, I'm just not a math person.

What should parents tell their ki when they believe it about Th at they're not good at math?

How do they get their kids that they can be good at m - Yeah, it's, I hear that all the time.

I think it's important to just avoid sa 'Cause then it reinforces that potentially negative mindset about math with their kids.

I think just generally the way we think about math is it's like, it's like a separate thing in our lives when really it's integrated into everything we do.

The mathematics as a field is just putting symbols to just be able to describe our everyday life on paper and in a dialogue.

Like there has to be a way to express how like groups of things coming together, how much you have.

Well then I mean that's just a simple So really everyone is a math person.

Everyone uses math.

Everyone has to think like every single day.

So I don't think anyone can fairly describe themselves as not a math person.

Maybe they haven the way the symbols are used and that's fine.

Like that is a lifelong learning thing that you could learn it your whole life and it can get very complicated.

But really everyone is a math person, I wo And it's just about how we talk about it and recognizing what there is still to learn about the way society has developed tools and symbols and ways of describing these math concepts that are all around us.

- Yeah, I would kind of go to the two fundamental criteria for being a math person.

And hopefull First and foremost, are you a person?

Second, do you do math?

You are a math person.

Congratulati We've got jackets.

And so what I would kind of encourage w is foster a growth mindset.

And what I mean with that is if you'r well, I'm not good at math or you're giving this impression of a fixed mindset where because I wasn't good back then, I can't be now or because I'm not now, I can't be in the future.

And rather than fo encourage very much a growth mindset of I may not be able to do whatever ski or demonstration now today, but I just have to work harder and I will be able tomorrow or the next day or in the future because I can learn that.

I know I can demonstrate that.

I just need to work a little harder to be able to do th And you know, another really good thing is, you know, when giving, you know, feedback to a student even if i constructive feedback, the value of, you know, cl with just a simple statement of, you know, I'm giving you this feedback be because I know you're capable of doing this.

I'm doing it because I want to see you, you know, do bett And I know it's in you.

And just, you know, le whether it's your, you know, your child or as a teacher working with a student letting them know just how much you constantly believe in them and you know that th You know, another thing kind of with the growth mindset, if you look at some of the research the las coming outta Stanford University, there was a study by, you know, Dr. Joe Bowler who, you know, she looked at students who were given a challenging, a rigorous p And when they were told, well, you know, you did well on this problem they were more likely to take a less challenging problem the next time.

Whereas students w the same challenging problem, but different feedback and yo u know, you did well on this problem because you worked so hard.

That second group was more likely to take a more challenging problem on the next one because it wasn't that they were fixed, that they were just born good at math 'cause that's just, that's j They did well on it because they worked hard on it and it was that hard work and that effort that led to their success.

So they were m on the next problem and the one thereafter.

And that's that growth mindset that, you know, I think parents and families, you know, everyone can foster in their student is, you know, where are you today and how much better could you be tomorrow or next week if you continue to work at i And I'm here to support you every step - Well, that brings us to the end of our conversation.

Thank you so much Brian and Katie for taki to chat with us today.

- Thanks.

Goodbye.

- Thank you so much.

- And we'll see you back here for the ne Ohio Learns 360 Webinar.