>>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP, THE WORLD DIVIDES OVER HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN GAZA, I SPEAK TO AARON DAVID MILLER, FORMER MIDDLE EAST PEACE NEGOTIATOR FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

>>> MANHUNT AFTER THE MASS SHOOTING IN MAINE.

I'M JOINED BY THE EXECUTIVE EDITOR OF THE SUN JOURNAL.

>>> MET ROMNEY WITH A RECKONING, ASKED ABOUT HIS REVEALING NEW BIOGRAPHY .

ALSO ON THE PROGRAM, MORE FROM MY CONVERSATION WITH U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON TEACHING INSIDE THE SITUATION ROOM AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY CANDACE KING WE ARE, FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND NIKKI STRAUSS.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J GLESSNER, SETON J MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM , PATRICIA JAN COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES .

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR FROM LONDON.

DESPERATION BUILDS INSIDE GAZA FOR HUMANITARIAN RELIEF AND PRESSURE BUILDS OUTSIDE FOR HUMANITARIAN FOLLOWING ISRAELI AIR STRIKES FOLLOWING THE HAMAS TERRORIST RAMPAGE OF OCTOBER 7th.

EMOTIONAL ADDRESS UNITED NATIONS, PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE ALMOST BREAK DOWN AS HE TOLD THE STORIES OF THOSE >> A MAN EMBRACES HIS MOTHER AND PLEADS LIKE A CHILD, COME BACK, I BEG YOU.

COME BACK AND I WILL TAKE YOU WHEREVER YOU WANT.

CAN'T LET GO BUT THERE IS NO TIME TO MOURN , MORE DEATH IS ON THE WAY.

>> IN GAZA CAN THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS IT WILL PULL THE PLUG ON AID EFFORTS DUE TO LACK OF FLUID --FUEL.

ISRAEL SAYS THERE IS FUEL BUT IT IS IN THE HANDS OF HAMAS.

6800 PALESTINIANS KILLED IN THE PAST TWO WEEKS, ACCORDING TO HEALTH OFFICIALS.

CNN HAS NO WAY TO VERIFY THOSE NUMBERS.

IN ADDITION TO 1400 MURDERED, ISRAEL SAYS THAT 224 PEOPLE ARE THE IDF CARRIED OUT WHAT IT CALLS A TARGETED RAID OVERNIGHT IN NORTHERN GAZA.

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU VOWED TO CONTINUE THE ASSAULT.

>> Translator: WE ARE RAINING DOWN HELLFIRE ON HAMAS.

WE HAVE ELIMINATED THOUSANDS OF TERROR GROUPS AND THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING .

AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE PREPARING FOR GROUND INCURSION, I WILL NOT DETAIL WHEN OR HOW OR HOW MANY OR THE OVERALL CONSIDERATION WE ARE TAKING INTO ACCOUNT MOST OF WHICH ARE UNKNOWN TO THE PUBLIC.

THIS IS HOW IT NEEDS TO BE , IN ORDER TO SAFEGUARD THE LIVES OF OUR SOLDIERS.

SPIN I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING TO AARON DAVID MILLER ABOUT THE HARDENING LOCAL DIVIDES, EVEN SOME SHAPING UP INSIDE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

HE SERVED AS THE MIDDLE EAST NEGOTIATOR SEVERAL U.S.

ADMINISTRATIONS AND IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> CHRISTIANE , ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU .

I WENT TO GET TO THE HEART OF THE MASSIVE DIVISIONS, THE WEALTH OF INFORMATION WE'RE LEARNING AND HOW THE WORLD IS MOVING INTO POSITIONS UNLIKE WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE.

YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE, YOU HAVE BEEN IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD MANY YEARS.

ISRAELIS FIRST CALLED YOM KIPPUR, 9/11, TAKE US BACK WHEN YOU WERE FIRST THERE WITH ONE OF THESE CRISES.

DAY I WAS IN JOURNALISM OCTOBER 6, 1973 COMING OUT OF YOM KIPPUR SERVICES .

MY WIFE , LINDSEY AND I, WE HEARD THE SIRENS.

I HAD EERIE REMINISCENCE OF THIS CRISIS, THERE WAS A HUGE INTELLIGENCE .

THE TRAUMA AND VULNERABILITY , ISRAEL WAS EXPOSED.

2800 ISRAELIS KILLED WITH THOUSANDS OF EGYPTIANS IN SYRIA SOLDIERS, HALF THE NUMBER OF ISRAELIS KILLED WITHIN A 24 HOUR PERIOD ON OCTOBER 7th.

THE DISTINGUISHING CHARACTERISTICS OF OCTOBER '73, THERE IS NO CNN OR MEDIA, NO INTERNET.

WE WORK COMPLETE AND UTTER NEWS BLACKOUT AND IT PERSISTED FOR DAYS, NOT WEEKS.

WE NEEDED TO CALL THE UNITED STATES TO GET INFORMATION ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE , THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th AND CONSEQUENCES OF ISRAELI AIR STRIKES AND BLOCKADE OF GAZA, PALESTINIANS AND DISTRACTION, ALL OF THAT AMPLIFIED AND BROUGHT HOME WITH IMMEDIACY AND TERRIFYING URGENCY .

FRANKLY, THAT CAN ONLY DRIVE PEOPLE TO THEIR RESPECTIVE CORNERS AND TRANSPARENCY IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO KNOW IN REAL TIME REPORTING , NOTHING SUBSTITUTES .

THAT IS THE DOWNSIDE.

>> YOU JUST SAID DRIVES PEOPLE INTO THEIR CORNERS, WE HAVE SEEN HOW THE WORLD IS SHAPING UP, NATIONS IN THE WORLD, COLLEGE CAMPUSES IN THE U.S., STREETS AND DEMONSTRATIONS ARE HARDENING POSITIONS , EVERYTHING BEING BROADCAST IN REAL TIME.

ONE THING THAT REALLY STRUCK US IS WHAT YOU TWEETED THIS WEEK.

YOU SAY IN 25 YEARS, YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THIS KIND OF DIVISION INSIDE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS MODERATING ITS OWN ISRAELI- PALESTINIAN CONFLICT , STAFFERS SHARE CONCERNS.

OUTSIDE OF DISSENT CHANNEL, 25 YEARS OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT, I DON'T RECALL FOREIGN-POLICY ISSUES DURING UP AS MUCH CONTROVERSY INSIDE THE USG AS THIS ISRAEL HAMAS WAR .

THAT IS QUITE A STARTLING STATEMENT.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE HEARING.

>> YOU HAVE SEEN THE RESIGNATIONS.

I DON'T WANT TO CREATE THE SENSE THAT THERE ARE MASS RESERVATIONS AND YOU HAVE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WHITE HOUSE , TREMENDOUS VOLATILITY , TREMENDOUS EMOTIONAL ANGST ON BOTH SIDES OF THE LINE AND EVERY SIDE OF THE LINE .

I'M REFLECTING ON THE FACT , STARTED WORKING IN 1977 FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE AND LEFT IN 2003, WE SAW A LOT OF DIFFERENT CRISES.

THREE LEBANON WARS, FOUR ISRAEL HAMAS ENGAGEMENTS.

BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS AND GAZA.

DURING MY TIME, I LEFT SEVERAL MONTHS , THE UNITED STATES INVADED IRAQ.

THE SENSE OF POLARIZATION, MAYBE LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN AMERICA, CONSENSUS ON SO MANY ISSUES HERE AND CLEARLY THE ISRAEL ISSUE, ONCE BARELY CONSOLIDATED AROUND CONSENSUS, IS NOW BREAKING APART, REPUBLICAN PARTY EMERGING AS THE ISRAEL WRITER PARTY, DEMOCRATIC PARTY DIVIDED, RECENT PROGRESSIVES AND MAINSTREAM TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATS MORE CRITICAL OF ISRAEL.

WHAT PROMPTED THE ANGST AND EMOTIONAL CONFLICT IN THE STATE EVEN THAN THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF, I SUSPECT WAS OCTOBER 7th, THE BRUTALITY AND THE SLAUGHTER.

ALSO THE ISRAELI RESPONSE.

LET'S BE CLEAR , THE UNITED STATES CAN BE AN EFFECTIVE BROKER WHEN IT COMES TO NEGOTIATING ARAB AND ISRAELI PEACEMAKING AND WE HAVE ON OCCASION, EGYPT AND ISRAEL AS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

IN A WAY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION POLICY ON ISRAEL SET BEFORE THE CRISIS BEGAN.

YOU HAD THE PRESIDENT, EMOTIONAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL, NOT BARACK OBAMA , IT IS BILL CLINTON WHO WROTE IN HIS MEMOIRS, HE LOVED , I SAW PRESIDENT CLINTON AGREE.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS PROBABLY MORE IDENTIFIED WITH THE ISRAELI START THAN ANY OTHER AMERICAN PRESIDENT GOING BACK DECADES .

THAT WAS ONE FACTOR.

THE SECOND WAS WHAT OCCURRED OCTOBER 7th.

THIRD, THERE ARE POLITICS HERE LIKE THERE ARE ALWAYS POLITICS WITH FOREIGN-POLICY.

THE ADMINISTRATION POSITION FROM THE BEGINNING WAS , UNMISTAKABLY, WE WILL GIVE ISRAEL THE TIME AND SPACE AND SUPPORT TO DO WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO WITH RESPECT ON HAMAS AND GAZA, THAT POSITION HAS CLEARLY EVOLVED THE LAST TWO WEEKS, MUCH MORE SENSITIVITY TO A, THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE CAUSED BY ISRAELI AIR STRIKES IN EFFORT TO STRIKE HAMAS POSITIONS, THAT IS NUMBER ONE, AND THE HOSTAGES, INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL HERE AND IN PARTICULARLY , OBVIOUSLY IN ISRAEL.

THREE, ADMINISTRATION GROWING CONCERNS WHETHER OR NOT THE ISRAELIS HAVE A PLAN, DO THEY HAVE AN ENDGAME ?

HOW WILL THEY ACHIEVE IT , WILL THEY BE ABLE TO ADHERE, EVEN HAPHAZARDLY , LITTLE AND CONSISTENT TO ABIDE BY INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW ?

ALL OF THIS IS COMBINED, I THINK, TO GENERATE A LOT OF ANGER, ANGST, AND EMOTION.

THERE IS STILL A GOOD MANY PEOPLE THAT I KNOW WHO STILL BELIEVES THE UNITED STATES CAN DEMONSTRATE MORE CLARITY WHEN IT COMES TO ISRAELI ATTACKS BUT HAS A HARD TIME , BUT I GUESS YOU WOULD CALL MORAL >> THIS IS INTERESTING BECAUSE THIS WEEK I HAD A VERY WIDELY WATCHED INTERVIEW WITH QUEEN RON YOU ABOUT A DOUBLE STANDARD AND IT HAS GONE VIRAL BECAUSE SHE APPEARS TO BE EXPRESSING WIDELY HELD VIEW , CERTAINLY MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT BEEN THE HONEST BROKER, TO BE FRANK, I WILL BRING UP SOMETHING YOU SAID IN A DOCUMENTARY BY THE FAMOUS ISRAELI FILMMAKER WHEN HE TALKED TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE BEEN IN LESS NEGOTIATORS TRYING TO GET TWO STATE PEACE SOLUTION ENTERS DOCUMENTARY, THE HUMAN FACTOR A FEW YEARS AGO.

HAIR IS A LITTLE CLIP STARTING WITH AMBASSADOR DANIEL KURTZ AT , IN YOUR INDUSTRY .

>> AMERICAN NEGOTIATING PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN UNITED STATES COORDINATE POSITIONS ISRAEL CAN GO AND TRIES TO MARKET THAT OUTCOME TO THE PALESTINIANS.

IF YOU ARE PALESTINIAN, YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF, WHY DO I WANT THE UNITED STATES IN THE ROOM?

ALL THE UNITED STATES IS DOING, IN THE WORDS OF ERIN MILLER, ACTING LIKE ISRAEL'S LAWYER.

I KNOW A LAWYER WHEN I SEE ONE.

TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, MYSELF INCLUDED, FUNCTION FAR TOO FREQUENTLY AS ISRAEL'S LAWYER DURING THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

>> THAT WAS MANY YEARS AGO, AS WE CAN SEE, DO YOU STILL STAND BY THAT?

>> OF COURSE.

BY THE WAY, ISRAEL'S LAWYER WAS A PHRASE I RESURRECTED OUT OF HENRY KISSINGER'S MEMOIRS WHERE HE DESCRIBES THE PROBLEM OF BEING ISRAEL'S LAWYER FOR JAMES BAKER, WHO LOVE THE IDEA.

THE REALITY IS, CHRISTIANE , IT IS LOGICAL.

OUR CLIENT SHOULD BE NEITHER ISRAEL INTERLOCKED , THE CLIENT SHOULD BE AGREEMENT .

WE SHOULD LAWYER FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING FOR BOTH SIDES.

I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY , JIMMY CARTER , WHO HOSTED SUCCESSFUL SUMMIT , THE DRAFT OF THAT AGREEMENT WENT THROUGH 20 PLUS DRAFTS BECAUSE THE AMERICANS CONTROL THE TEXT.

CAMP DAVID, SECOND CAMP DAVID, INCREDIBLY WELL-INTENTIONED NEVER UNDERMINED IT PRESIDENT CLINTON'S SINCERE DESIRE AND HOPE TO BROKER AGREEMENT.

ON THE FOURTH DAY OF THAT SUMMIT, WE PREPARED A PAPER FOR THE ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, DESCRIPTION OF THE ISSUES.

I WALKED IN ON ONE OF THE WHAT IT PATHS, WHERE'S THE TEXT ?

I THOUGHT YOU WOULD GIVE IT TO US.

I SAID TO HIM , STILL WORKING ON AND HE WINKED AT ME AND SMILED, WE HAVE GIVEN IT TO THE ISRAELIS.

I SMILED AND KEPT ON WALKING THERE IS NO QUESTION WE CAN BE EFFECTIVE BROKER AS JIMMY CARTER WAS IN 1978 AND 1979 TO PRODUCE THAT PEACE TREATY, MET THE MUTUAL REQUIREMENTS AND NEEDS OF ISRAEL AND EGYPT.

WE WERE HONEST THERE IN A SENSE WE REALLY DID TRY TO FIND THAT MIDDLE BALANCE ON ISRAELI PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATIONS FOR AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT , NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE GIVEN THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PALESTINIAN NATION.

THE PROBLEM OF OVERLAPPING SPACE IN JERUSALEM.

ONE STATES SEEKING TO CHALLENGE, ACTOR TO A COMMON STATE AND THE VIOLENCE THAT CONTINUES TO BE A HAND GRENADE ON BOTH SIDES , FREQUENT BOTH SIDES, ON THE ISRAELI- PALESTINIAN PEACE CRISIS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION POSITION TOWARD THE MOST RIGHT-WING FUNDAMENTALISTS AND EXTREME GOVERNMENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL THE LAST 10 MONTH YOU CAN SEE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ANNOYANCE AND FRUSTRATION.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF HOLDING OUT WHITE HOUSE MEETINGS, SING PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IN NEW YORK, THE ADMINISTRATION VERY RELUCTANT TO IMPOSE COST OR ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE ISRAELI.

PRESIDENT BIDEN'S REACTION TO THIS CRISIS , IT SEEMS TO ME WAS SET EVEN BEFORE IT BEGAN .

I MUST SAY , THE SLAUGHTER ON OCTOBER 7th CREATED A NEW FRAME AND NEW REALITY, I WOULD ARGUE NO AMERICAN WOULD , I DON'T CARE WHAT PARTY , WHATEVER HIS SENSITIVITIES AND SENSIBILITIES WERE TO THE PALESTINIAN SIDE , COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING OTHER THAN IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS CRISIS, BASICALLY GO TO ISRAEL'S CORNER .

THE PROBLEM WE FACE NOW, I THINK, HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN GAZA, THE DEBATE OVER WHETHER IT WAS ISRAELI STRIKE ON THE ARAB HOSPITAL IN GAZA TURNED OUT TO BE PALESTINE JIHAD ERRANT MISSILE, THAT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED THE DEBATE.

IT IS RAPIDLY NOW BECOMING A DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH SORT OF NARRATIVE .

PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN GAZA ARE NOT --SPEAK LET ME INTERPRET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, OUT OF THE HORROR OF WHAT HAPPENED OCTOBER 7th AND THE ENSUING CATASTROPHE AND RAGING THE REST OF THE MUSLIM WORLD, THE ARAB WORLD, MANY OTHERS WE NEED TO BE SHORT HERE, OUT OF THIS WE CAN EVEN TALK ABOUT POTENTIAL EMERGENCE FROM THESE ASHES INTO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE AND PEACEFUL ?

IF NETANYAHU DESTROYS HAMAS, IS THERE A WAY FORWARD ?

>> LOOK , YOU KNOW THIS REGION AND SPENT AS MUCH TIME THERE AS I HAVE.

THERE IS ONE ELEMENTAL REALITY, EVERY BREAKTHROUGH IN THAT ARAB ISRAELI CONFLICT ZONE , WE DO NOT COUNT THE ACCORDS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT A CONFLICT ZONE, EVERY AGREEMENT WHETHER IT IS '73 WITH IT ISRAELI PEACE TREATY IN '79 FOLLOWED BY THE WAR .

WHETHER IT WAS MADRID PRECEDED BY SADDAM 'S INVASION OF KUWAIT AND THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION LEADING NINE- MONTH EFFORT TO CREATE PEACE .

OSLO ACCORDS FAILED, ISRAELI JORDANIAN PEACE TREATY DID NOT.

AT ALL STARTED CHANGING CALCULATIONS ON THE PART OF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

IS IT CONCEIVABLE OUT OF THIS NIGHTMARE, THIS LONG DARK TUNNEL WE ARE IN , THAT IN THE WAKE OF IT, WHATEVER IS LEFT CAN BE SOMEHOW FASHIONED INTO A PATHWAY, IT WON'T BE IMMEDIATE, THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY PUSH TOWARD WHAT I STILL BELIEVE EVEN THE MOST PEOPLE I KNOW BELIEVE IT HAS GONE THE WAY OF THE DODO, THE TWO STATE SOLUTION, YES, CHRISTIANE .

I BELIEVE IT IS POSSIBLE.

FRANKLY, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE?

ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS HAVE A PROXIMITY PROBLEM, THEY ARE LIVING ON TOP OF ONE ANOTHER, THEIR LIVES ARE INEXTRICABLY TOGETHER.

THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION.

EVEN IF HAMAS IS CRUSHED AND IF THEY ARE CRUSHED, IT MAY WELL MEAN THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY HAVING OBSERVED ALL OF THIS WRECKAGE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA MAY FUNDAMENTALLY WEAKEN.

WITHOUT HELP, THERE IS NO LIGHT.

I AM PERSUADED THAT THE ARC OF HISTORY BENDS IN VERY STRANGE AND UNPREDICTABLE WAYS.

IT IS UP TO US, HUMANS, WORKED TIRELESSLY TO SEE IF WE CAN GO THE RIGHT DIRECTION .

IT IS IMPORTANT EVEN OUT IN THE WAKE OF THIS AND IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH TO HEAR THOSE WORDS.

AARON DAVID MILLER THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

APPOINTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES IN MAINE, ORDERED A SHELTER-IN-PLACE REMAINS IN EFFECT ACROSS MULTIPLE CITIES AS POLICE CONTINUE THEIR MANHUNT FOR THE KILLER WHO OPENED FIRE KILLING 18 PEOPLE AND INJURING 13.

IT IS THE DEADLIEST MASS SHOOTING IN MAINE 'S HISTORY BUT THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 500 AROUND U.S.

THIS YEAR THE POLICE RELEASED THIS PHOTO A 40- YEAR-OLD MALE SUSPECTED OF TARGETING A RESTAURANT AND BOWLING ALLEY IN THE CITY OF LEWISTON.

THE GOVERNOR MADE EMOTIONAL PLEA FOR PEOPLE TO COME TOGETHER.

>> THIS IS A DARK DAY FOR MAINE .

I KNOW IT IS HARD FOR US TO THINK ABOUT HEALING WHEN OUR HEARTS ARE BROKEN.

I WANT EVERY PERSON IN MAINE TO KNOW THAT WE WILL HEAL TOGETHER.

WE ARE STRONG , WE ARE RESILIENT, WE ARE A VERY CARING PEOPLE.

THE DAYS AND WEEKS AHEAD, WE WILL NEED TO LEAN ON THOSE QUALITIES MORE THAN EVER BEFORE.

>> JOINING ME WITH THE LATEST IS JUDY, THE EXECUTIVE EDITOR OF SEVERAL WEEKLY NEWSPAPERS OF WESTERN MAINE INCLUDING THE SUN JARRED OFF.

WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

QUESTION, WHAT IS THE LATEST AND HOW ARE YOU DOING, HOW ARE PEOPLE IN YOUR NEWSROOM AND FAMILY AND PEOPLE WHO YOU ARE REPORTING ON, WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

>> I WISH I COULD SAY EVERYBODY IS FINE, EVERYBODY IS SHOCKED, THERE WAS A REAL CALM SHOCK LAST NIGHT WHEN THIS WAS ALL UNFOLDING AND WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TURN MORE TOWARD FRUSTRATION AND ANGER TODAY, I THINK THE FACT THIS MAN HAS NOT BEEN LOCATED IS ADDING THAT FEAR AND FRUSTRATION AND MAYBE CHILDREN WILL BE KEPT HOME FROM SCHOOL YET AGAIN TOMORROW.

PARENTS IN LOCKDOWN, STORES ARE CLOSED, RESTAURANTS ARE CLOSED.

IT IS REALLY AN ODD WORLD FOR US RIGHT NOW IN WHAT IS USUALLY AN INCREDIBLY PEACEFUL PLACE.

>> LET ME PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT OF STATEMENT FROM YOUR HEALTH COMMISSIONER.

THIS SUSPECT IS STILL AT LARGE AND WE WANT TO PROVIDE COMMUNITY SUPPORT FOR THE VICTIMS, THE FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE STATE.

WE ALSO HAVE INCREDIBLY STRONG , LASERLIKE FOCUS ON BRINGING THIS SUSPECT INTO CUSTODY AND ULTIMATELY TO JUSTICE.

>> POLICE HAVE RELEASED A MUG SHOT AND ARE TRYING TO FIND HIM , TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR COMMUNITY AND WHAT THIS KIND OF MASS CASUALTY AND SLAUGHTER DOES, EVERYBODY MUST KNOW SOMEBODY.

>> I THINK WE ARE FINDING OUT QUICKLY AS THE VICTIMS IDENTIFIED, LEWISTON IS A CITY OF ABOUT 36,000 PEOPLE, WHILE WE HAVE TWO HOSPITALS HERE, THEY'RE NOT MEDICAL CENTERS.

THEY ARE SMALL CITY HOSPITALS AND COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY OVERWHELMED LAST NIGHT, SO MUCH SO MANY PATIENTS HAD TO BE AIRLIFTED TO BOSTON.

AND I WOULD NOT SAY PANIC, KIND OF A BLIND , WE HAVE TO ADDRESS ALL OF THESE THINGS HAPPENING LAST NIGHT AND WE HAVE SEEN FEDERAL AND STATE POLICE OFFICERS COMING FROM OUTSIDE OF MAINE FLOODING IN, NO DOUBT THEY'RE DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO FIND THIS GUY.

I THINK WHAT MAKES THIS HIT HOME SO HARD IS SCHEMENGEES IS A NEIGHBORHOOD BAR.

JOSEPH WALKER WAS THE MANAGER THERE AND LAST NIGHT, HE HAD ORGANIZED CORN HOLE TOURNAMENT FOR HIS BUDDIES AND REGULAR CUSTOMERS, SOMETHING WE CAN ALL SEE OURSELVES DOING AND RELATE TO THAT.

NOW, THEY ARE DEAD AND IT MAKES IT SO REAL ON A VERY HUMAN LEVEL FOR PEOPLE AND PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING.

THE GOVERNOR SAID , IT IS TRUE, IT WILL BE A LONG HEALING PROCESS HERE.

>> YOU STARTED BY BASICALLY TALKING ABOUT THIS PEACEFUL GIVE US A LITTLE MORE DESCRIPTION OF, HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY KIND OF, NOT THAT KIND OF CRIME BUT ANY KIND OF CRIME, FEAR LIKE THIS?

>> WE DO IN THE DOWNTOWN, MAINE SUFFERS DISPROPORTIONATELY FROM THE OPIOID CRISIS AND WE DO HAVE DOWNTOWN CRIME BUT IT IS REALLY TARGETED TO THE DRUG TRADE .

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT AFFECTS PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN THAT WORLD.

ARE THERE SHOOTINGS AND CAR DOWNTOWN?

YES, YES THERE ARE BUT NOTHING ON THE LEVEL OF THIS AND NOTHING THAT SEEMS TO HAVE A REASON, NOBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT CARD'S CONNECTION WAS EITHER TO THE BOWLING ALLEY OR THE BAR .

I THINK RIGHT NOW THAT IS THE GREAT MYSTERY, IS HOW THEY BECAME CONNECT IT AND WHY THEY WERE TARGETED.

WORLD AND THE UNITED STATES NOW, PEOPLE HAVE FACTORED IN MASS SHOOTINGS .

THERE HAVE BEEN 500 AT LEAST OF VARIOUS SIZES AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE GUN LAWS WEATHER IT IS EVER AN ISSUE WHERE YOU ARE, READING A FEW THINGS, MANY PEOPLE OWN GUNS BUT YOU HAVE A RELATIVELY LOW RATE OF GUN HOMICIDES, THERE IS NO RED FLAG LAW, FAIRLY PERMISSIVE GUN LAWS RED FLAGS WOULD ALLOW FAMILIES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TO SEIZE WEAPONS WHEN SOMEONE IS DEMONSTRABLY UNFIT TO HOLD ONE.

WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP TO PEOPLE WITH GUNS?

>> YEAH , THAT IS ALL TRUE.

THERE IS HIGH GUN OWNERSHIP RATE IN MAINE BECAUSE IT IS AN OUTDOORS, HUNTING, SPORTSMAN KIND OF PLACE .

WE ALSO HAVE WHAT IS CALLED CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY LAWS HERE WHICH MEANS UNLESS YOU ARE PROHIBITED BY FEDERAL AND STATE LAW BECAUSE OF MENTAL ILLNESS OR PRIOR PROHIBITED FROM OWNING A WEAPON, YOU CAN CARRY A WEAPON, CONCEAL CARRY A WEAPON, CARRY A WEAPON DOWN THE MAIN STREET IF YOU WANT TO BECAUSE WE HAVE THAT CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY LAW HERE.

>> WE WILL BE FOLLOWING YOUR STORY, THANK YOU FOR GIVING US THE LATEST REPORTS, JUDY MEYER WITH A CONTEXT AND WE HOPE YOU STAY SAFE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH .

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

>>> THE DYSFUNCTION FROM WASHINGTON MAY HAVE BEEN INTERRUPTED BY THE ELECTION AT LAST OF A HOUSE SPEAKER.

REPUBLICAN MIKE JOHNSON IS A VOCAL TRUMP SUPPORTER AND ELECTION DENIER AND KEY TO THE ATTEMPTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 VOTE.

SOMEWHAT WAS ALWAYS TRY TO RISE ABOVE THE POLITICAL CHAOS WITH HIS OWN PARTY IS SENATOR MITT ROMNEY .

HE IS THE SUBJECT OF A REVEALING BIOGRAPHY BY JOURNALIST McKAY COPPENS TO DISCUSS HIS POLITICS AND ENTANGLEMENTS WITH TRUMP OVER THE YEARS.

>> WELCOME BACK, YOUR BOOK, ROMNEY RECKONING IS OUT NOW, THE FIRST QUESTION I THINK OF WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT CATALOGING THE LIFE OF THIS SENATOR, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE , GOVERNOR IS WHERE WAS, WHERE IS THE RECKONING ?

IS THIS A RECKONING THROUGH HIS WHOLE LIFE, IS THERE A SPECIFIC MOMENT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK HE IS AT A POINT NOW HE IS LOOKING BACK AT HIS LIFE AND CAREER AND THE LAST 30 YEARS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND TAKING STOCK OF WHAT HAS CHANGED.

THERE IS A MOMENT AFTER JANUARY 6th WHERE HE WATCHED MANY OF THE LEADERS OF HIS PARTY INSTIGATE WHAT HE CONSIDERED ATTEMPTED INSURRECTION AND IT SHOOK LOOSE SOMETHING IN HIM, IT MADE HIM ALARMED ABOUT THE FRAGILITY OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, ALARMED ABOUT WHAT HE BELIEVES IS THE CREEPING AUTHORITARIANISM WITHIN THE GOP BUT ALSO START TO ASK DIFFICULT QUESTIONS OF HIMSELF.

HE WANTED TO REALLY HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHETHER THE MAINSTREAM ESTABLISHMENT, REPUBLICANS LIKE HIMSELF , HAD ANY COMPLICITY OR POSSIBILITY FOR ALLOWING THE EXTREMIST FORCES ON THE RIGHT TO BASICALLY TAKE OVER THE PARTY SO OVER THE COURSE OF THE TWO YEARS I WAS WORKING ON THIS, THAT WAS A CONVERSATION WE HAD.

I WOULD GO TO HIS HOUSE ONE NIGHT EVERY WEEK AND WE WOULD ASK THOSE TOUGH QUESTIONS AND HE WOULD BACK ON HIS CAREER AND LIFE AND TELL ME ALL THE STORIES HE HAD NEVER TOLD BEFORE .

>> HE HAD AGREED TO SIT DOWN AND WORK WITH YOU ON THIS, DID HE THINK YOU WERE GOING TO DO A MEMOIR ?

THIS IS SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T DO UNTIL THEY'RE OUT OF OFFICE AND HE HAD NOT ANNOUNCED HIS PLANS TO NOT SEEK RE-ELECTION UNTIL RECENTLY.

>> THAT'S RIGHT I WAS SURPRISED HE ACCEPTED MY CONDITIONS.

I APPROACHED HIM AND SAID THAT I BASICALLY WANT TO HAVE ALL OF THE ACCESS AUTHORIZED BIOGRAPHER WOULD HAVE BET IT WON'T BE AUTHORIZED IN THE SENSE THAT YOU WON'T HAVE ANY EDITORIAL CONTROL.

I WANT ALL OF YOUR JOURNALS, YOUR EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE, I WANT FULL ACCESS.

I GET TO DECIDE WHAT GOES INTO THE BOOK.

I EXPECTED HIM TO BALK, MAYBE WE REVISIT THIS AFTER I RETIRE.

INSTEAD, YOU MOST OF MY CONDITIONS AS ADAIR .

HE SAID OKAY, LET'S DO IT AND IMMEDIATELY BLOCKED OFF WEEKLY INTERVIEWS AND LIKE I SAID, HE GAVE ME JOURNAL ENTRIES THAT WERE INCREDIBLY CANDID, OFTEN DAMNING PORTRAITS OF MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY WITHOUT EVEN HAVING REREAD THEM.

THE RESULT IS, I THINK PRETTY UNUSUAL PRODUCT WHERE YOU HAVE STILL SITTING SENATOR ON BURDENING HIMSELF TO A BIOGRAPHER OVER TWO YEARS AND THE RESULT IS, I THINK PRETTY INTERESTING INSIGHT INTO THIS MOMENT IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

YOU DOCUMENT THE DIFFERENT TIMES, HE, MITT ROMNEY MET TRUMP EARLIER IN HIS CAREER, EVEN JOTTED DOWN IN HIS JOURNAL, HIS THOUGHTS ABOUT TRUMP, TRUMP WAS A GUY WHO SAYS 100% WHAT HE THINKS AND MAKES HIM LAUGH.

>> YEAH, I THOUGHT THAT WAS FASCINATING IN THE 2012 ELECTION, ROMNEY SPENT A LITTLE TIME WITH TRUMP AND WROTE DOWN AFTER ONE OF HIS PHONE CALLS WITH TRUMP, HE LIKES HIM , TO HIS SURPRISE, HE THOUGHT TRUMP WAS FUNNY AND GOSSIPY AND ENTERTAINING, THEIR PHONE CALLS WERE OUTRAGEOUS THAT THEY WOULD LIFT HIS SPIRITS.

WHEN I FOUND THAT ENTRY IN HIS JOURNAL, I TOOK IT BACK TO ROMNEY.

I THINK HE WAS A LITTLE EMBARRASSED.

HE SAYS THERE IS SOMETHING SEDUCTIVE ABOUT TRUMP CHARISMA, IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND HOW HE HAS BROUGHT SO MANY LEADERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY INTO HIS CAMP AND BROUGHT THEM IN LINE BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE IN THE ROOM WITH HIM, HE CAN BE MAGNETIC AND YOU WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH HIM AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT MAKES THEM SO DANGEROUS, FRANKLY .

>> I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER WHAT WAS HUMILIATING KIND OF TRYOUT FOR SECRETARY OF STATE THAT DONALD TRUMP PUT MITT ROMNEY THROUGH.

WHAT DOES HE THINK ABOUT THAT ?

EVEN THOUGH HE IS HARBORING THESE FEELINGS OF HOW CAPABLE ARE CONFIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS, WHY DID HE GO THROUGH THAT?

>> THIS IS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS HE WAS REALLY INTROSPECTIVE WITH ME IN INTERESTING WAY.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS SECRETARY OF STATE, I WAS MOTIVATED BY TWO DUELING IMPULSES.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE WAS MOTIVATED BY DESIRE TO HELP THE COUNTRY, HE THOUGHT THAT TRUMP ELECTION WAS A CRISIS, HE WORRIED ABOUT THE CALIBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD APPOINT TO HIS ADMINISTRATION, AT THE TIME IN THE IMMEDIATE WAKE OF THE 2016 ELECTION, ONE AND FLOATED FOR SECRETARY OF STATE WAS RUDY GIULIANI.

ROMNEY THOUGHT THAT THAT WOULD BE A DISASTER.

HE FELT THERE NEEDED TO BE ADULTS IN THE ROOM, HE WAS NOT A SUPPORTER OF TRUMP BUT IF HE COULD GET INTO THE ROOM, MAYBE HELP STEER AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY, THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING.

BUT , ROMNEY ALSO TOLD ME THERE WAS THIS OTHER MOTIVATION.

HE ADMITTED TO IT, HE SAID THAT THERE WAS A PART OF ME, I WANTED THE JOB, I WANTED THE POWER.

HE SAID I WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT AND I TRIED TWICE AND COULD NOT GET IT IF YOU CAN'T BECOME PRESIDENT, SECRETARY OF STATE IS A GOOD CONSOLATION PRIZE.

HE SORT OF ACKNOWLEDGES AT VARIOUS POINTS IN HIS CAREER, THAT DESIRE FOR THE TOP JOB HAS MADE HIM DO THINGS HE WOULD NOT OTHERWISE DO.

THE BOOK CONTAINS THE BEHIND- THE-SCENES STORY OF HIS NEGOTIATIONS WITH TRUMP OVER THAT JOB.

I THINK WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THE BREAKING POINT AND THE REASON ROMNEY DID NOT GET IT WAS THAT ULTIMATELY TRUMP DEMANDED HE RETRACT EVERYTHING HE HAD SAID ABOUT TRUMP DURING THE 2016 ELECTION .

ROMNEY SAID, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T DO THAT.

I THINK I WOULD LOOK RIDICULOUS AND I'M NOT GOING TO WALK BACK EVERYTHING I SAID AND THAT WAS THE DEALBREAKER.

>> THERE IS A SECTION IN THERE THAT IS A QUOTE FROM MITCH McCONNELL TO MATT ROMNEY , HEY, YOU CAN SAY THE THINGS WE ARE ALL THINKING BUT WE CAN'T.

WE AGREE WITH YOU BUT WE CAN'T SAY IT.

WATCHING THIS ELECTION FOR HOUSE LEADERSHIP, RECEIPT ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF CONTROL FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP EXERTS FROM THE SIDELINES.

>> MM-HMM.

THAT IS RIGHT .

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BOTHERED ROMNEY THE MOST ABOUT HIS TIME IN THE SENATE DURING THE TRUMP YEARS, HE WOULD OFTEN HAVE REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES SIDE WITH HIM, HE TOOK ACCOUNT , IT HAPPENED AT LEAST 12 TIMES.

REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES WITH SIDLE UP TO HIM , I WISH I COULD SAY THE THINGS YOU ARE SAYING, I WISH I HAD THAT CONSTITUENTS THAT YOU DID.

I WISH I WAS IN THE SAME POLITICAL POSITION AS YOU BUT I JUST CAN'T.

ROMNEY BECAME SO ANNOYED WITH THIS, HE DEVELOPED A GO TO ANSWER WHERE HE WOULD SAY, THERE ARE WORSE THINGS THAN LOSING AN ELECTION, BELIEVE ME TO TAKE IT FROM ME.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE HOUSE NOW IS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

EVEN AS DONALD TRUMP IS OUT OF POWER, HE HAS NOT PRESIDENT FOR YEARS, HE IS THE LEADER OF THE PARTY, STILL COMMANDS THE LOYALTY OF THE BASE.

BECAUSE OF THAT , SO MANY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO REALLY KNOW BETTER, I THINK , ARE AFRAID TO CROSS HIM AND AFRAID TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD EARN AN ANGRY PRESS RELEASE FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

TRUMP 'S CONTINUED INFLUENCE IN THE PARTY IS ONE OF THE REASONS ROMNEY FEELS THERE'S NO PLACE FOR PEOPLE LIKE HIM ANYMORE .

SPEAK WHAT YOU THINK HE GETS THAT FROM?

YOU HAD A CHANCE TO TALK TO MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY, YOU TELL THE READER A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIS DAD , WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO STAND UP AND SAY I WILL BE THE ONLY REPUBLICAN THAT WILL STAND FOR IMPEACHMENT OF THE EXISTING PRESIDENT, A MEMBER OF MY OWN PARTY ?

>> I THINK YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW MITT ROMNEY PSYCHOLOGY FATHER.

HIS DAD WAS A GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN IN THE 1960s.

AND WAS SEEN AS A LEADING PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

HE PLANTED HIMSELF FIRMLY IN THE LIBERAL WING OF THE PARTY AT A TIME WHEN BARRY GOLDWATER AND CONSERVATIVES WERE TAKING OVER THE PARTY AND RATHER THAN JOIN THE RIGHT-WING OR INDULGE SOME OF THEIR EXCESSES, HE PUSHED BACK AGAINST HIM, STOOD UP AGAINST THEM, HE MARCHED WITH CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, HE REFUSED TO CONDEMN BLACK PROTESTERS ADMIT RACE RIOTS THAT WERE VERY UNPOPULAR WITH WHITE CONSERVATIVES.

IN FACT, AT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION IN SAN FRANCISCO IN 1964 GEORGE ROMNEY REFUSED TO ENDORSE BARRY GOLDWATER, THE PARTY NOMINEE, AND OFFERED THIS THUNDERING INDICTMENT OF THE EXTREMIST FORCES HE BELIEVED WERE THEN TAKING OVER THE PARTY.

ROMNEY WAS AT THAT CONVENTION IS A YOUNG MAN, HE WAS A TEENAGER AND HE SAW THE ENTIRE CONVENTION STANDING TO APPLAUD BARRY GOLDWATER WHILE HIS DAD SAT QUIETLY AND REFUSED TO CLAP AND HE WAS MOVED BY THAT COURAGE .

YOU KNOW, AT VARIOUS POINTS OF MITT ROMNEY'S LIFE, I THINK HE HAS BEEN HAUNTED BY THAT MOMENT BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE HE WAS NOT FOLLOWING HIS DAD'S EXAMPLE.

HAS BEEN THESE LAST FEW YEARS THAT I THINK HE HAS BEEN REALLY TRYING TO LIVE UP TO US FATHER'S LEGACY AND I THINK THAT IS A BIG PART OF WHAT MOTIVATED HIM.

>> YOU DIVE PRETTY DEEPLY INTO HIS EARLIER LIFE BEFORE POLITICS AND POINT OUT HOW INFLUENTIAL , I GUESS MAYBE TWO DIFFERENT STRANDS THAT I SEE HELPING MOTIVATE A LOT OF HIS THINKING, ONE IS THE PROBLEM SOLVER BUSINESS CONSULTANT HE WAS WITH CAPITAL, MADE A TON OF MONEY DOING THAT.

THE OTHER RECURRING THEME IS HIS FAITH, THE GUIDANCE THAT IT HAS.

I WONDERED IF THEY ARE AT TENSION WITH EACH OTHER, COMPLEMENTARY .

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE CENTRAL TENSIONS OF MITT ROMNEY'S LIKE HIM YES AND HERE PRAGMATISM, MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT, HE WANTS TO LOOK AT THE DATA, CRUNCH THE NUMBERS, FIGURE OUT WHAT THE SOLUTION IS BASED ON THAT DATA.

THERE IS THIS OTHER SIDE OF HIM , THE CENTRAL PART OF HIS IDENTITY AND LIFE IS HIS FAITH WHICH IS NOT BASED ON DATA, IT IS BASED ON CONVICTION AND BELIEF AND I THINK AT VARIOUS POINTS OF HIS LIFE, HE HAS LEANED MORE TOWARD THE MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT SIDE OF HIS PERSONALITY , I THINK IT IS OFTEN HOW HE TALKED HIMSELF INTO TAKING POSITIONS HE DOES NOT TOTALLY AGREE WITH, IT IS HOW HE CONVINCES HIMSELF TO SKIRT THOSE ETHICAL LINES.

AT THE SAME TIME, HE HAS THIS NAGGING CONSCIENCE THROUGHOUT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY CAN CLARIFY FOR ME LATE IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING ON THIS BOOK.

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SQUARE THOSE TWO SIDES OF HIM AND UNDERSTAND THAT.

THERE WERE SOME MOMENTS IN HIS CAMPAIGN, HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS IN HIS CAREER, HOW DID YOU TALK YOURSELF INTO DOING THIS WHEN YOU KNEW IT WAS WRONG?

OR AT LEAST YOU HAD THE SENSE IT WAS WRONG .

HE SAID , WHAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS , IF YOU DON'T HAVE, IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT QUESTIONS ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG , YOU DON'T HAVE TO RATIONALIZE ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU JUST DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO WIN .

HE SAID I WAS ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH THESE QUESTIONS OF RIGHT AND WRONG, I DID NOT WANT TO SEE MYSELF AS SOCIOPATHIC WE ARE SAVING POWER.

HE WAS CONSTANTLY INVOLVED IN THESE SELF JUSTIFICATIONS AND TRYING TO SQUARE HAVING TO DO SOMETHING TO WIN AN ELECTION WITH KNOWING IT MIGHT NOT BE TOTALLY RIGHT .

HIS JOURNALS ARE FILLED WITH EXAMPLES OF HIM WRITING THROUGH THAT TENSION I THINK WHAT MAKES ROMNEY ENTRUSTING AS A SUBJECT FRANKLY, THIS IS TRUE OF ALMOST EVERYONE IN POLITICS.

EVERYONE IS CONSTANTLY LIVING IN THAT TENSION BETWEEN THEIR PRINCIPLES AND AMBITION AND WHAT MAKES ROMNEY UNIQUE REALLY ISN'T THAT HE GAVE INTO THE AMBITION AT TIMES , BECAUSE ALL OF THEM HAVE, IT IS THAT HE SEES THAT CLEARLY AND IS WILLING TO RECKON WITH IT .

I THINK THAT IS PART OF WHAT MADE WRITING THE BOOK SO INTERESTING, OFFICIAL IN REAL TIME GRAPPLING WITH HIS CONSCIENCE .

YOU DON'T GET TO SEE THAT VERY OFTEN.

I WONDER, YOU OPENED THE BOOK WITH THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION AND A CALL MITT ROMNEY GET FROM ANGUS KING, ESSENTIALLY RELAYING A WARNING TO MITCH McCONNELL, THERE'S A LOT OF CRAZY INTEL CHATTER , YOU REALLY NEED TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

I WONDER DURING THAT DAY OR MAYBE NOW AFTER, DOES MITT ROMNEY FEEL ANY SENSE OF HIS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF HOW AND WHY THE PARTY GOT TO WHERE IT WAS?

>> YEAH.

WHEN HE LOOKS BACK ON HIS TWO PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS, WHAT HE SEES IS A STORY WHERE HE THOUGHT HE COULD INDULGE THE RIGHT-WING ELEMENTS OF THE GOP WITHOUT SUCCUMBING TO THEM .

IT WALK WHERE HE WOULD SPEAK AT THESE TEA PARTY RALLIES AND TRY TO TALK ABOUT DEFICIT REDUCTION BUT THE CROWD DID NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT DEFICIT REDUCTION, THEY WANTED TO HEAR HIM THROW RED MEAT AT THE AUDIENCE, TALK ABOUT GUNS AND KILLING TERRORISTS AND THE EVILS OF ABORTION.

HE FELT THAT PULL TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANTED AND HE WOULD TRY TO PULL BACK A LITTLE BIT.

THIS CONSTANT DANCE THAT FRANKLY A LOT OF MAINSTREAM REPUBLICAN LEADERS LIKE HIM WERE DOING OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.

WHAT HE DID NOT REALIZE, I THINK NOW REALIZES , IS THAT FLIRTATION WITH THE MORE EXTREME PORTION OF HIS PARTY HAVE CONSEQUENCES .

REPUBLICANS LIKE MITT ROMNEY THOUGHT THEY COULD HARNESS THE INJURY --ENERGY OF THE RIGHT-WING WITHOUT LETTING THEM TAKE OVER THE PARTY AND OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, WHAT HAS BECOME CLEAR IS THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

EVENTUALLY THOSE FORCES WILL COMPLETE THEIR CONQUEST OF THE PARTY AND YOU ARE SORT OF LEFT WITH THE CHOICE OF EITHER DOING WHAT THEY SAY OR DISTANCING YOURSELF FROM THEM AND TAKING FROM THEM.

ROMNEY HAS CHOSEN THE LATTER OPTION.

I THINK HE SEES THERE ARE CLEARLY CONSEQUENCES FOR PLAYING FOOTSIE WITH THE EXTREMIST FORCES OF THE GOP.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED ROMNEY RECKONING, McKAY COPPINS, THANK YOU.

>>> ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE, FORMER SENATOR HILLARY CLINTON, PROUD OF HER ABILITY TO HOLD DIFFERENT LYRICAL VIEWS BUT STILL WORK WITH SENATORS OF THE OPPOSING PARTY, TO GET IMPORTANT LEGISLATION PASSED.

WE SPOKE ABOUT TODAY'S DESTRUCTIVE POLITICS IN PART ONE OF OUR CONVERSATION.

TONIGHT, WE WANT TO BRING UP-TO- DATE WITH HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON AS SHE STARTS TEACHING THE NEXT GENERATION OF LEADERSHIP AND GLOBAL CRISES, VERY TIMELY INDEED.

SHE EXPLAINS WHY TODAY'S EPIDEMIC OF LONELINESS CAN ALSO DAMAGE DEMOCRACY.

ON A NOTE, THIS CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY IN WASHINGTON, D.C. BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

YOU ARE BACK IT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHING IN THE SITUATION ROOM, HOW ARE YOU COMMUNICATING ALL OF THIS TO THE GEN Z, WHO ARE YOUR STUDENTS?

I'M HAVING AN INCREDIBLE TIME BECAUSE THE STUDENTS, IT IS A VERY LARGE CLASS, 375 STUDENTS, A QUARTER UNDERGRAD , THE REST ARE GRADUATES IN THE SCHOOL OF INTERNATIONAL AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS WHERE I'M TEACHING .

THEY ARE ALSO FROM THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL AND LAW SCHOOL, ENGINEERING SCHOOL.

IT IS A WONDERFUL MULTI- INTERNATIONAL STUDENT BODY .

I'M CO-TEACHING WITH THE DEAN , WHO IS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST OF GREAT NOTE THAT HAS WRITTEN ABOUT HOW LEADERS MAKE DECISIONS.

HER PART OF THE CLASS IS TALKING ABOUT THE THEORIES, USUALLY HAS TO BE RETROSPECT , HOW SOMEBODY MAKES A DECISION, WHAT INFLUENCES THEM, WHAT ARE THEIR BIASES, WHAT ARE THEIR ADVISERS TELLING THEM?

HOW CONFIDENT OR LACK OF CONFIDENCE IS AFFECTING THEM AND AND AND READING THE LITERATURE AND HAVING A GREAT TIME DOING THAT AND SINCE I DID NOT DO IT BEFORE BUT I'M FINDING OUT IN RETROSPECT SO I'M DOING THAT BUT I'M ALSO TALKING ABOUT REAL- WORLD EXAMPLES.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT FACE-TO- FACE DIPLOMACY OR INTERVENING MILITARILY OR ON A HUMANITARIAN BASIS, WHAT GOES INTO MAKING THOSE DECISIONS?

AND WHY ARE SOME LEADERS MORE SUCCESSFUL MAKING DIFFICULT DECISIONS AND OTHERS ARE NOT?

IT IS REALLY FASCINATING SET OF CHALLENGES WE ARE POSING TO THE STUDENTS AND AT THE END WE TAKE 20 MINUTES AND ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT THE STUDENTS COME FROM ALL OF THE WORLD, THEY ASK ABOUT THE WORLD.

IT IS REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE BUT TRY TO TAKE A BROAD VIEW ABOUT HOW DECISION-MAKING ACTUALLY WORKS.

AMERICA UNDER YOUR STEWARDSHIP NOTABLY THE FIRST COUNTRY TO APPOINT AMBASSADOR FOR GLOBAL WOMEN'S AFFAIRS .

A FEW YEARS LATER, THE SWEDISH FOREIGN MINISTER TALKED ABOUT FEMINIST FOREIGN POLICY , A DECADE LATER, 16 GOVERNMENTS ADOPTED THAT AND THEY SHOW TALKING ABOUT CONFLICT, PEACE, HEALTH, GDP MATERIAL IMPROVEMENTS WITH ALL OF THOSE WHEN WOMEN ARE EQUALLY REPRESENTED.

YOU FEEL WHAT YOU HAVE DONE HAS BEEN SUCCESS éIRAN, AFGHANISTAN I FEEL LIKE WE MADE PROGRESS BUT THERE HAS BEEN BACKLASH MUCH OF THE PROGRESS FOR WOMEN, NOT JUST PEACE AND SECURITY BUT HEALTH AND EDUCATION AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY WAS SET BACK DURING COVID.

WE ARE PLAYING A BIT OF CATCH- UP.

IT IS SIGNIFICANT A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT WOMEN HAVE TO BE PART OF ANY FOREIGN-POLICY CALCULATION AND DECISION.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF DATA , WE ARE AT GEORGETOWN, THE INSTITUTE OF WOMEN PEACE AND SECURITY RUN BY THE FIRST AMBASSADOR FOR WOMEN'S ISSUES, HAS DONE AN EXTRAORDINARY JOB COLLECTING AND COLLATING ALL OF THE DATA ABOUT HOW WOMEN AT EIGHT PEACE TABLE LEADS TO MORE DURABLE PEACE.

WOMEN'S VOICES DECIDING ABOUT REFUGEE FLOWS AND MIGRATION ISSUES AND HEALTHCARE CHALLENGES IS ESSENTIAL IF WE MAKE POLICIES.

NONE OF THIS SHOULD BE NEW TO PEOPLE BUT AS WE BOTH KNOW, WOMEN ARE SO OFTEN AN AFTERTHOUGHT IN MANY SETTINGS, NOT JUST GOVERNMENTAL OR WITH RESPECT TO FOREIGN-POLICY OR SECURITY THAT IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND ELSEWHERE SO THIS BACKLASH IS NOT ONLY VERY UNFORTUNATE AND SETS WOMEN BACK BUT IT LOSES SIGHT OF THE LARGER GOAL.

WE WANT TO GET TO A POINT WHERE WOMEN ARE JUST AS A MATTER OF FACT PART OF DECISION-MAKING WITH EVERY ASPECT OF SOCIETY, WE DON'T HAVE TO MAKE A SPECIAL EFFORT, HAVE A SPECIAL AMBASSADOR, WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE SPECIAL FOREIGN-POLICY.

IT IS SO COMMONPLACE THAT YOU WOULD NOT THINK ABOUT MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT INCLUDING WOMEN'S VOICES, PUTTING WOMEN AT THE TABLE.

THERE IS THAT GREAT LINE FROM EVERY WOMAN DESERVES A SEAT AT THE TABLE, IF THERE IS NOT A CHAIR, BRING A FOLDING CHAIR.

I'M AN ADVOCATE FOR FOLDING CHAIRS, GET WOMEN AT THE TABLE.

WE KNOW THAT DIVERSE GROUPS MAKE BETTER DECISIONS.

DOESN'T GET SOME PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR COMFORT ZONE?

YEAH, IT DOES BECAUSE YOUR HEARING THINGS AND LEARNING THINGS THAT MAY BE NEW TO YOU AND YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THAT ON BOARD.

I INTERVIEWED A FEW WEEKS AGO THE GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER, SHE EVOLVED YEAR FAMOUS STATEMENT, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS.

SHE SAYS WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE HARD POLICY, SECURITY POLICY.

THERE IS EVOLUTION FROM THE NICHE THAT IT WAS .

FINAL QUESTION BECAUSE IT REVOLVES BACK TO DEMOCRACY, YOU TACKLED IT IN INTERESTING WAY WRITING AN ARTICLE ON LONELINESS.

IT IS A HUGE PROBLEM, FIGURES SUGGEST SOME 70% OF PEOPLE MEETING FRIENDS AND HAVING CLOSE FRIENDS HAS DECLINED BY THAT MUCH IN RECENT YEARS.

HOW DOES IT AFFECT DEMOCRACY?

>> IT AFFECT DEMOCRACY ABSOLUTELY DIRECTLY.

I TOOK A LOT OF MY VERSION FROM ROBERT , BOWLING ALONE, I WAS ON A PANEL WITH HIM LAST WEEK AT THE CLINTON PRESIDENTIAL CENTER, HE FOUND EARLY ON THE REAL SECRET INGREDIENT FOR MAKING DEMOCRACIES AND SOCIETIES WORK WITH SOCIAL CAPITAL.

YOU COULD HAVE TWO COMMUNITIES, SAME LEVEL EDUCATION AND INCOME, ONE IS FRIGHTENING, THE OTHER IS NOT.

THESE NETWORKS OF PEOPLE, HOW PEOPLE RELATE TO EACH OTHER, WHETHER PEOPLE TRUST EACH OTHER.

DEMOCRACY ABSOLUTELY RELIES ON THAT.

BECAUSE I HAVE FOLLOWED HIS WORK FOR SO LONG, EVEN BEFORE HIM, ALEXIS, WHO TAUGHT HOW UNIQUE AMERICANS WORK BECAUSE WE HAD WHAT ARE CALLED HABITS OF THE HEART, PEOPLE WERE NOT IN ASSOCIATION WITH EACH OTHER, RAISING A BARN ONE DAY OR DOING PIE SUPPER TO RAISE MONEY FOR SOMEBODY'S MEDICAL CARE, WHATEVER IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN .

WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AMERICA TODAY, THE DECREASE IN LIFESPAN , WHICH IS DRAMATICALLY DROPPING , IS A REALLY WHAT SOME HAVE CALLED DEATH BY DESPAIR.

PEOPLE WHO ARE LONELY DISCONNECTED BUT ON THEIR SCREENS AND WATCHING THEIR TELEVISIONS AND TOO OFTEN, THEY GET A STEADY DIET OF NEGATIVE INFORMATION.

WE KNOW FROM LOOKING AT THE WEAPONIZATION OF LONELINESS, THE TITLE OF MY ARTICLE, THAT SOME PEOPLE PLAY VERY EFFECTIVELY ON.

STEVE BANNON UNDERSTOOD EARLY ON THAT YOUNG MEN WHO WERE GAMERS COULD BE WEAPONIZED.

DONALD TRUMP UNDERSTOOD YOU'RE CONFUSED ABOUT YOUR LIFE, YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT DIRECTION TO GO , I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU PEOPLE TO HATE, THAT WILL GIVE YOU AN ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE.

LONELINESS, ACCORDING TO OUR SURGEON GENERAL, LOWERS YOUR LIFESPAN .

IT MAKES YOU SICK OR ROBERT PUTNAM HAD THIS AMAZING STATISTIC, LITERALLY YOU WILL LIVE A YEAR LONGER IF YOU JOIN ONE CLUB, IF YOU'RE ACTUALLY IN A SETTING WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, NOT ALL LIKE YOU ECHOSTOR POLITICS.

IT IS HARD TO TALK TO PEOPLE THAT HAVE SUCH DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED POLITICS PICK ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE DOING AT THAT INSTITUTE OF GLOBAL POLITICS AT COLUMBIA IS TO MODEL THAT.

HAVING ACROSS THE AISLE CONVERSATIONS, BRINGING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, TALK ABOUT ISSUES THAT ARE NOT FOR STUDENTS.

LOOK, NO ISSUE IS OFF-LIMITS, WE ARE GOING TO TALK.

IF WE DO NOT BREAK DOWN BOTH THE BARRIERS WE HAVE CONSTRUCTED INTERNALLY AND KIND OF TREATED FORESTS, WE CAN'T BREAK THROUGH THIS.

IT IS REALLY AN INSIGHT THAT I CAME TO WITH PUTNAM AND ARE SURGEON GENERAL AND OTHERS TO SAY, WHY IS OUR POPULATION SO VULNERABLE RIGHT NOW?

IN PART BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE ALONE AND WE KNOW ALL OF THAT SCREEN TIME INCREASES ANXIETY, DEPRESSION, EATING DISORDERS, PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUNG WOMEN.

YOUTH SUICIDE HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY.

WE ARE LIVING AT A TIME WE MORE THAN EVER NEED TO REACH OUT AND FOR PEOPLE TO BE PART OF SOMETHING BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES AND OUR POLITICS IS MILITANTLY AGAINST THAT.

STICK TO YOUR TRIBE , DON'T LET PEOPLE IN THAT DON'T AGREE WITH YOU, MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR OTHERS.

RATHER THAN , HEY, WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER PICK NOBODY GETS OUT OF THIS LIFE ALIVE, LET'S FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO TO MAKE , AND EVERYONE ELSE.

>> HILLARY CLINTON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

SPENT AND HOW THAT RESONATES TODAY TO FINALLY TONIGHT, NO ONE IS SAFE IN GAZA.

THIS IS AL JAZEERA BUREAU CHIEF AFTER LEARNING HIS WIFE AND TWO CHILDREN WERE KILLED ON WEDNESDAY.

AL JAZEERA SAYS THEY DIED AS A RESULT OF ISRAELI AIR STRIKE AND ISRAEL SAYS IT WAS TARGETING TERRORIST INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE AREA.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> KNEELING NEXT TO HIS 15-YEAR- OLD SON.

12 MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY LOST THEIR LIVES THEY WERE ALL BURIED IN A MASS GRAVE TODAY.

DESPITE EVERYTHING HE HAS BEEN THROUGH, HE FELT IT IMPORTANT HE SAYS DESPITE THE PAIN, IT IS HIS DUTY.

>>> THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS SAYS 20 FORMER COLLEAGUES HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

THAT IS IT FOR A PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.