- [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Off The Record," is $5 million in new funding enough to get the Future CATS Red Linne back on track?

In politics, anew poll says North Carolina's race for the U.S. Senate is a virtual tie as voters watch the first and last Budd versus Beasley debate.

Also, who gets to draw the North Carolina maps that decide who voters vote for?

Apartments in Charlotte aren't cheap, but they are getting a little cheaper.

We'll talk about the latest report on rents, and the program that helps if you're facing eviction, is taking applications again.

Plus, the Mecklenburg Sheriff won't stop you for a broken taillight, but Charlotte Mecklenburg Police will.

Lots to talk about next on PBS Charlotte.

(gentle music) And from our PBS Charlotte Studios in Historic Plaza Midwood, I'm Jeff Sonier, and we're off the record talking about the stories that you've been talking about this week.

And if you watch the news, read the news and listen to the news, well, you'll recognize the names and faces around our virtual table.

Ely Portillo from the UNC Charlotte Urban Institute, Genna Contino from the Charlotte Observer, Steve Harrison from WFAE, and Alexandria Sands from Axio Charlotte.

You can also join the conversation from home or your phone, just email your questions and comments to OffTheRecord@wtvi.org.

Thanks for joining us folks this morning.

Let's kind of pick up where we maybe left off last week, talking a lot about the issues facing the Charlotte area Transit System.

The story about the Red Line isn't necessarily new, I guess it happened a couple of weeks ago, but it got some play in several media outlets in Charlotte this week.

$5 million in funding for a rail line that was supposed to be complete by now, if you go by the original plan that CATS had for light rail and rail funding.

Let's start with you, Alexandria.

I know you wrote a piece in Axios this week about that, you wanna kind of bring us up to date on what the Red Line funding proposal is this time around?

- Yeah, so the MTC, which is a CATS board, decided that they were going to allocate $5 million to advance this project, that's the the word they're using, which basically means updating designs, because some of them are outdated.

And then studying things like where the stations gonna be, what are the frequencies gonna be.

They wanna run the red line, ideally, more than they had originally planned.

So there seems to be some renewed confidence that this could happen, especially with Biden's infrastructure law, and some potential for federal money.

So the problem is Norfolk Southern still hasn't agreed to let Charlotte use its rail tracks.

We got a statement this week that was a little bit more open than statements you've found in the past, saying that the, they would work with Charlotte where they could.

So we'll see when, what happens.

- Anybody wanna chip in on the optimism that CATS is showing about this Red Line project all of a sudden?

- Yeah, I mean, this is all taking place in the context of the larger discussion about whether and how CATS can build out its transit system, the $13.5 billion plan.

They'll need some kind of new sales tax passed in a referendum to really do anything.

And keeping North Mec on board is important to that.

So I think there's probably some considerations.

They can't really say the red line's not gonna happen.

There's also hope that Norfolk Southern could change their minds.

But I do think it's worth talking about at this point what the opportunity cost is of investing more time and money in the Red Line right now instead of trying to invest more in things like Bus Rapid Transit to North Mecklenburg, and looking at some alternatives, because this, this thing is, this plan's almost as old as me.

- Yeah, Jeff, I think Ely's right in that, clearly, I mean there this is in a lot of ways a real political decision.

You just simply cannot tell North Mecklenburg, about 10% of the voters in the county that, sorry, the Red Line train is dead.

So we kind of continue year after year with this more money, more studies.

It would be fascinating to go back to 1998, when the, when the tax was first enacted, and tally up all of the money spent on the Redline in terms of designing, planning, engineering.

It's got to be a really high number.

- And city council ultimately has to make this decision, right, Genna?

- Yeah, I was gonna say, when I saw the, the MTC news, I called Ed Riggs, who I know The Ledger did a great Q&A with the other day, but he's the chair of the transportation committee, and I was asking about this project in relation to, to the transit tax, which CAT CEO has said this, that's the other piece of this, we need funding for it, whether that's a penny sales tax or what have you.

But Councilman Ed Riggs said basically, this doesn't change anything, Norfolk Southern hasn't changed their position, we're just kind of refreshing the design to keep this plan on the table.

But, yeah, getting those North Mecklenburg towns on board will, I think, really be (indistinct).

- Yeah, I guess there's some value to be ready if Norfolk Southern ever does change their mind.

But the flip side is if you've talked to the leadership, the political leadership in the North Mecklenburg towns, are probably most of the voters, this is what they were promised decades ago, and they've been, they've been paying the tax just like everybody else in Mecklenburg County ever since then.

You know, when CATS comes back and provides more funding, and more promises, you can't help but understand why they're a little bit skeptical or cynical about anything that is promised them about the red line without some sort of green light from Norfolk Southern, which is the elephant in the room here.

- And, Jeff, it's not only that North Mecklenburg did not get the red line train, it's that they got toll lanes on I-77 instead.

- [Jeff] Right.

- So it works, it's kind of a double whammy.

- Yeah.

If anything moves forward on this transit plan that's right now kind of on hold, it will require some additional funding.

Is this a way to maybe, is this a peace offering to the North Mecklenburg towns, and the political leadership, maybe get on board with us politically for this penny increase, and we'll do what we promised we do years ago, but didn't?

I mean, it kind of feels that way right now, because the city and the transit backers are looking for political support before they can go forward with any sort of actionable improvements.

- Yeah, you have to keep that in mind.

When you look at the history here, there's a lot of bad blood, and I think it would just be too damaging to any potential effort for a sales tax referendum to say, eh, you know, we're not actually gonna do this.

- You talked with Ed Riggs, what did he say about the sales tax, Genna?

Anything specific about whether he would support it, could support it, might support it at some point as a Republican with his Republican cohorts in Raleigh?

- Yeah, so he says he wouldn't support it as it stands right now.

I believe, and think it's probably gonna be a few years out including lobbying with the legislature, getting those North Mecklenburg towns on board.

Which is interesting because I remember discussions earlier this year that it might be on the 2022 ballot, and it, now it seems like that could be a few years out.

- Yeah.

A vote right now seems, even talking about a vote right now seems awfully premature with so many unanswered questions.

Hey, just one more story to talk about with CATS this week.

You did some fact checking, Steve, on some of what CATS said last week regarding the Uptown Transit Center.

Interesting read.

You wanna tell us a little bit about what CATS says about the CTC versus what in some cases the reality, or the reality is about the CTC?

- Yeah, so Jeff, I mean, like you said, CATS is kind of laying out a case to replace the main bus station uptown, across from Spectrum Center.

And the idea that they're saying is that the bus station is kind of totally outdated.

It's nearing 30 years old, and it just doesn't work anymore.

And I kinda went through some of the talking points that CATS made.

One of them was that the CEO John Lewis said, he talked about, look, this is a canopy and it, even though it's covered, it gets really hot and cold under the canopy.

But he didn't mention to City Council that bus passengers, there are two air conditioned waiting rooms, so you don't have to wait outside you, you can go indoors.

And the other one, he talked a lot about the connections to the Gold line and the Blue line being really difficult.

And I went down there and kind of looked, and that just doesn't seem correct.

I mean, the Gold Line streetcar, it's just right across the street.

Or not even across the street, it's the middle of the street.

It's a really easy walk, the same with the Blue Line.

So I think CATS is kind of struggling to lay the case for why they need a new bus station.

And when you kind of look in detail at some of their, what they're saying, it doesn't quite, the need doesn't seem to be as dramatic as they're making it out to be.

- And they've, gotta, they've gotta make their case to city council to get support for this project.

You reported on what I was thinking, I actually made that connection about a week ago from the Gold Line to the Blue Line, and it was not a problem.

I mean, it was as easy as you reported it was.

And most people who have done that, and maybe that's the problem, a lot of folks aren't riding rapid transit, but most people would agree.

I mean as a reason to spend millions on a new project, I'm not sure that's, that's one that would hold water with most council members, and with most folks who have actually experienced that connection from the Blue Line to the Gold Line, or from the bus system to either one of those lines.

It's fairly simple and fairly close.

Anyway, this is, CTC is something we'll be talking about for many shows to come in the future, and it just was an interesting read this week given we talked about with the CTC last week.

Hey, I wanna switch gears a little bit to politics.

You know, right now we've got some competition.

As folks are watching this show on Friday night, other viewers are watching Ted Budd versus Sherry Beasley in their first, last and probably only TV debate statewide.

I guess you can catch the end of the debate after this show if you're so inclined, but can we talk about why this debate has taken so long to materialize?

We're less than a month away from actual election day, and we've seen tons of ads on both sides, but as far as face to face, this is the only time that voters will get a chance to measure these two candidates against each other.

- Yeah.

If you go back two years ago to the Cal Cunningham, Tom Tillis race for U.S. Senate, there were three debates in all.

I think two were on a Monday night, one on a Friday.

And so for this debate, this will be, for this race, this will be the only debate, and it's gonna be Friday night, which is, you'd probably have more people watching on a Monday or a midweek debate.

It's also on Spectrum, which is cable.

A lot of people now don't have cable.

The Beasley campaign, they wanted to debate as much as they could, and the Budd campaign, of course, did not debate during the Republican primary, but finally did agree to this one debate on a Friday night.

It'll be a little hidden.

- And it makes you wonder what the impact will be.

We've seen so many ads, there's gotta be a reason why these candidates haven't met before this, whether it's reluctance on the part of one or the other.

But it raises the question of how impactful these debates really are.

I mean 10, 15, 20 years ago these were big deals for every candidate, but in this digital age with control of the message more than ever, does this really have an impact a month out from election day?

I guess does it all all come down to whether someone makes a huge gaff on stage, and how that extends virally after the debate is over?

- I think that's it entirely.

As long as, as long as Beasley or Budd does not make a huge gaff, then it is essentially survive and advance.

Just to talk like Jimmy Valvano, it is, as long as you, there is no viral moment, then I don't think the impact will be that big for, for either candidate.

- Yeah.

This is a close race too.

I saw several stories in the national media this week talking about, I think the most recent poll has a Beasley and Budd in a virtual tie, Budd with a one point lead, 43 to 42 among probable voters in the WRAL Raleigh poll.

And a lot of talk about the funding that is being spent on both campaigns, both inside the state, and outside money coming into the state.

Any thoughts on non-traditional campaigning versus traditional campaigning?

Ted Budd supposedly has been doing a lot more online stuff than maybe candidates have done in the past, and is counting on that to be successful come November.

You know, debates are one part of the equation.

What about overall spending in TV commercials?

I mean, are they as effective as they used to be?

And if that's not gonna be the future, what is the future of campaigning in big statewide races like this?

- Well, I think, Sherry Beasley has really been out there in person.

She's made a big deal about going to all 100 counties, meeting voters.

I think the start of her campaign was a little quieter, and has, has kind of ramped up some now.

I think that one thing about the overall context that this race is happening, and that's interesting, is that this race hasn't really been nationalized like some of the other big Senate races yet.

It's not on CNN and Fox News every night like Herschel Walker versus Rafael Warnock, or Dr. Oz versus John Fetterman.

But according to the polls it's really close.

I know the Lucy and the football metaphor is a little overused, but the Democrats have kind of had that with the last two Senate races in North Carolina, seeing races they thought were winnable slip away for various reasons.

So it'll be really interesting to see, one, how close this is, two, if the polling is better this time around, and three, if this race does start to get in the last month the national traction and attention that we're seeing with some of the slightly more colorful races in other states.

- And, Axios had a, a really good story this week looking at outside spending in the Beasley/Budd race, and that Republican-backed groups have spent five times as much money on Ted Budd or against Sherry Beasley as democratic groups.

And this has been a big issue in the race.

Going back to Eli's Lucy, the Charlie Brown football moment that a lot of national groups have kind of held their powder, and stayed away from North Carolina, just worried that this state is not winnable for Democrats.

And so, you know, maybe like I said, maybe in the last four weeks that changes, but so far national money has just, has just not been as interested in this race on the Democratic side.

- Yeah, it was- - There's no political science- - I'm sorry, go ahead.

I didn't mean to interrupt.

Go ahead, Genna.

- No, no, no, I'm sorry.

I was just gonna say there's no political science back to this, because I don't know what this says about demographics as I'm a Gen Z person that watches Jeopardy every day, but I can tell you both the Beasley and Budd campaigns are targeting Jeopardy viewers, because that's all I see are commercials for their ads.

- Well, here you go, I'm watching Jeopardy too, and I'm seeing the same spots every night.

I'm not sure who they're aiming at, maybe I'm not sure who Jeopardy's aiming at if we're both watching the same show at the same time.

- Right.

- Maybe it's political reporters, I'm not sure.

Hey, just one interesting fact about this race.

We've got a Democratic governor, and a very close split between Republicans and Democrats in the legislature, but I thought it was interesting that it's been since 2008 since a Democrat one statewide in a federal race, that was when Kay Hagen beat Elizabeth Dole for U.S. Senate, and when Obama, Barack Obama, won the presidential race in North Carolina versus John McCain.

Boy, that sounds like ancient history when you're talking about politics, but that's the last time that Democrats have been successful statewide in a federal race.

And so obviously this may be the year, but they've been close before, and they've been disappointed before.

- We talk about North Carolina being a purple state, but, like you said, if you look at federal elections, Republicans have a small but durable advantage year in and year out.

- Yep.

And they, and that may be exactly what's showing up in the polling right now.

Hey, other quick election story, I don't know if you can really call it quick, but the North Carolina Supreme Court talking about the way that maps are drawn in the future in North Carolina when it comes to who votes for whom in these elections.

Any quick summary of, of advances or changes in, in the lawsuit landscape when it comes to these cases right now in Raleigh?

- So nothing is going to change for the, the upcoming election, obviously, but we are still fighting over the maps enacted after the 2020 census.

There are plaintiffs groups like Common Cause that want the state legislative maps to be redrawn.

Republicans want, they want their ability for the legislature to kind of redraw that congressional map that was, was drawn by special masters.

So this was heard by the state Supreme Court today.

I think the real action though is going to come next year.

Well, first of all, the real action will become at the Supreme Court in the big case at the U.S. Supreme Court, but then also Republicans are waiting to see the results of the races for the state Supreme Court, and if they get a majority on the court, that's really the big thing to watch, because new maps will be coming next year.

- Yeah, that plus a super majority in the legislature would ensure no veto by Governor Cooper for at least the next two years.

A lot of interesting things going on.

And, again, there's a U.S. Supreme Court case that ultimately could change the way that every state draws up its maps going forward, also based on one of those North Carolina lawsuits.

So we'll talk more about that as we get closer to the election and beyond.

I wanna switch gears to, to the city and county cranking up again its RAMP program for those who are facing possible eviction because of COVID.

New funding coming from the federal government means more opportunity for folks to apply for these funds.

Can we talk a little bit about the eviction issue in the wake of COVID, and how important this RAMP program that the city and county both jointly fund is to those folks who are on the verge of losing their homes because of COVID?

Anybody?

- Well, they've opened applications again for it.

I think that the fact that this sprung up during COPVID did help, obviously, meet the need that was really intense then, but it's still continuing.

Obviously the need continues to be really high.

I think the Charlotte Ledger had a story today about the, excuse me, Crisis Assistance Ministry, and how they have seen a dramatic increase in the number of people who need help with utilities payments, as those rates grow up.

- I saw that story, yeah.

- Yeah.

So I think we're at a kind of an inflection point where a lot of the, the funding and attention that has gone to things like eviction assistance and utility assistance could wain as the pandemic fades, but the need is not going away.

So we're at a pretty interesting point right now where once those federal sources dry up, and once the city and the county are more back in business as usual mode, what happens next?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

And I wanted to add that even though we are starting to see rents drop a little, median rents drop a little bit in the Charlotte area, for those low income renters, people making 60% of the area median income and below, that's really not enough of a dent to make it more affordable for working class people that really need a place to live that might be working uptown and have to commute far, far in.

So these are the people that will be applying to that program.

- Yeah, COVID's over, but the cost of housing, inflation, all those things are still impactful on those folks that are living, in many cases, paycheck to paycheck.

That report that you mentioned, first time in quite a while that we've had a, a quarter to quarter drop in the average rental rates in, in Charlotte, and raises the question are rents going down or they're just not going up as fast.

But when you're talking about the folks at the 60% level, we're talking about individuals making 40,000 a year, families of four making 55,000-56,000.

So when you know what an apartment for two costs in this town, a two bedroom apartment, you start doing the math and the math doesn't work out.

So glad to see that program back up and running again, and hopefully it will help the folks that it's aimed at helping the most.

By the way, the housing rental thing, Ely, you've covered this extensively.

Any thoughts on why rents might be dropping now, and if this is a sustainable drop or if this is just a, I mean, you tell me, you know better than anyone why this happens, and what's behind it this time.

- Well, a lot of it is supply and demand.

There's been a lot of new apartments coming online, so there is some increased supply.

There's also, I think, a longer term trend that's really important to pay attention to versus just quarter to quarter changes.

If you look back to 2014, average rent for a two bedroom apartment in Charlotte was about $1000 ish, give or take.

That was only eight years ago.

Try finding a decent two bedroom apartment for $1000 a month in Charlotte now.

So even though we're seeing rent price growth moderate, and maybe even start to reverse a bit, the longer term trend is still much higher rents, and much higher housing prices in general.

So I think that it's welcome news for renters if it stops going up as fast or it comes down a bit, but doesn't mean mission accomplished by any stretch of the imagination.

- Yeah, I was really surprised.

They said in the next two years the inventory of apartments will increase by 10% because of all the new construction.

Those, that new construction probably isn't gonna be in the affordable area to the degree that it needs to be to help solve the affordable housing problem in this town.

But if the new apartments, from what I understand, it's the new apartments that are still holding steady on high rents.

The older apartments, because of that inventory, they might see a longer term drop, and that would be helpful for anyone that, as you said, is trying to make ends meet, trying to find that elusive, affordable two bedroom apartment in Charlotte.

Hey, we got- - And that overall supply increase does help, even if it's not affordable housing that's being built.

- Right.

Supply and demand, simple economics, which I never did particularly well in, in college.

But, yeah, I'm glad others have done better, and can bring us up to date on things like that.

Hey, couple of minutes left, I wanna talk about the change at the Mecklenburg County Sheriff's Department.

They've decided going forward that when it comes to non-moving violations, traffic stops, they're not going to stop folks for things like expired tag or broken taillight.

And the reasoning by the sheriff is that these stops is, in his view, are often used as a way to profile minority drivers, that these stops unfairly target minority drivers in many cases.

Any thoughts on this move in particular since the police department, the city's police department, doesn't seem to agree with the sheriff when it comes to whether these stops should be made in the first place?

Any thoughts as we close out?

- Jeff, I'll say, I'll say that, a couple things on that.

One, the sheriff's office historically has not played a big role in traffic enforcement.

- [Jeff] Right.

- And then when Sheriff McFadden came in in 2018, he changed that somewhat.

He started doing road, more speed traps, more of the law enforcement that he's now backing away from.

And on the city side, yes, they still will pull people over for expired tags, but they do it far less today than they did a decade ago.

They have really pulled back as well in terms of red light running, broken taillights, all this stuff.

CMPD has also really pulled back.

- Yeah, it's interesting.

what the sheriff refers to is a form of profiling or racial inequality, the police department calls it, says these types of stops are a crucial investigative tool for vehicle safety and crime management.

So the same, they're talking about the same thing, non-moving violation stops, but two different views from two different law enforcement agencies, both enforcing the same laws among the same folks.

By the way, the FOP called it irresponsible and not progressive.

That's the Fraternal Order of Police, the police union, if you will.

Hey, we are out of time folks.

I appreciate you making your way into our studios this week and talking, bringing us a good discussion on a lot of different topics that were current this week in the news.

I wanna thank you for joining us at home as well.

If you'd want to send comments or questions about what we talked about tonight, or what we should talk about in the future, you can always email us at OffTheRecord@wtvi.org.

Thanks for joining us this week, and we'll see you next time right here on PBS Charlotte.

(gentle music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.