- [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on Off The Record, a new timetable, new costs, and a new controversy for the future of Charlotte's transit system.

New training for Charlotte Mecklenburg police as cops balance how they deal with crooks versus how they deal with customers.

Also, how more affordable housing for Charlotte's lowest income zip code could actually force out some low-income neighbors and old Charlotte versus new Charlotte.

Is development along the blue line putting some of Charlotte's oldest businesses out of business?

Plus no charges against a federal marshal who shot and killed a suspect.

No underage vaping in North Carolina anymore.

No city council election this year, and no more plastic bags for your yard waste.

Lots to talk about next on PBS, Charlotte.

(upbeat music) And from our PBS Charlotte studios in historic Plaza Midwood I'm Jeff Sonier and we're Off The Record talking about the stories you've been talking about this week and if you watch the news, read the news and listen to the news, well, you'll recognize the names and faces around our virtual table.

Mark Becker from WSOC-TV, Ely Portillo from the UNC Charlotte Urban Institute and Danielle Chemtob from AXIOS Charlotte.

You can also join the conversation, just email your questions and comments to OffTheRecord@wtvi.org.

Well, I guess this week we'll pick up kind of where we left off last week, talking about the city's bid for a new mobility tax, new transit expansion, new ways for folks to get around and hopefully become more upwardly mobile from a economic standpoint as well, but it's gonna cost more, it's gonna take longer.

Ely, you're kind of our transportation guy.

You wanna start us off this week?

- Sure, this week we got a presentation from city officials to Charlotte City Council that started to fill in some of those question marks around the new transit plan.

The latest estimate is about $13.5 billion in cost.

That's a bit above the previous estimated range of eight to $12 billion and the timetable to me was a little more surprising than the cost because you kind of expect in these big projects, there's going to be cost increases.

The timetable now has things like the silver line coming online in the late 2030s and completion of this plan in 2040 or so.

So we're looking at a long time horizon and that's if the city is able to get the transit tax approved by the legislature to go on the ballot and then approved by voters next year to start in 2023.

So we're looking at more details or estimates, but I think there's still just a lot that could change, and that would something that the consultants working with city council emphasized repeatedly.

This is still really early in actually implementing this plan.

So I think we're gonna see a lot more questions come up over the next year or so as the city hashed this out and tries to get this one-cent sales tax for transit and transportation on the ballot before voters next year.

- Yeah, the more we know the harder it seems to be to get that, that tax.

I know that as you mentioned, the timetable eight to 10 years was initially the, you know, the target date for all of this, now we're talking about 18 to 20 years as a build-out date and it is, I guess it makes it harder to sell the taxpayers, to sell the lawmakers in Raleigh when you're talking about something that really doesn't feel reachable for a lot of taxpayers and voter I suppose.

- And you know, Jeff, you and I are the resident historians here and boy, you remember that the blue line.

Listen, the train runs great, it runs fast, but nothing about getting here was fast.

And this, again, I'm not surprised that they said now it's gonna be 20 years instead of 10 years or so.

I mean, realistically, and I would say there's still a 50, 50 chance or even less, and I don't wanna be the downer here, but based on history, it was tough getting that sales tax approved before and I think the atmosphere, the climate, political climate has only gotten tougher.

So I don't, I think there's a pretty good chance this, or they will never see all of this and there's a reasonable chance we won't see much of it.

20 years from now, we're gonna stand back and say, you know, remember that?

Yeah, whatever happened to that.

I hate to be a pessimist here, but I think that's probably a realistic view.

- When you still got hurdles like the red line, for example, and, you know, you still don't have the support of the Northern towns, and the red line is still a hallmark of the plan.

So, you know, remains to be seen kind of what's gonna happen with that Norfolk Southern has not, still not expressed any interest in working with the city at all.

So, you know, there's so many different hurdles between that, between general assembly, before this even can remotely become a reality.

- And that was actually exactly the situation when they first laid out a transit plan with five lines and I couldn't even tell you when it was probably 30 years ago and the red line was going up to, you know, Davidson via Cornelius and Huntersville and the other towns and, you know, Norfolk Southern said, we don't really wanna let you guys use the line and the towns weren't wild about it and it never happened.

We're right back to the future, right back to where we were and I'm not sure what's different this time.

- Go ahead Ely.

- The way the mayor put it, she said something to the effect of 18 years is a long time, but if we don't start this now, pretty soon we'll be talking, you know, a problem of every, every year you wait construction costs, land costs in a growing city like Charlotte only go up.

There's other cities competing for the federal funding that would need to cover part of this plan.

There are, you know, there's no certainty that we'll get the full sales tax and could be a half cent instead of one-cent.

So I think we're in a situation where the longer we wait and the longer this goes on, it's not gonna get easier.

It's only going to get more, more difficult.

- Yeah, well, let me touch on that for just a second.

You talked about federal funding.

I know there's a lot of folks who have a sense of urgency on this particular project because of the, you know, the Biden infrastructure plan.

They see an opportunity right here right now to get money that might not be available in the future and hasn't been available so much in the past.

Until we could get your political ducks in a row, until you get everybody on board, you're really not in line to get that funding, are you?

I guess that's why there's a real sense at city hall among the folks pushing this mobility tax plan to try to get as many people on board as quickly as possible, because, you know, I hate to use the metaphor here, but the train may be leaving the station when it comes to federal funding.

(crosstalk) - Go ahead Ely.

- I'm sorry, really quickly.

John Lewis said last week that that's a priority for them has been to be first in line for that funding at the head of the line.

But, you know, we heard from Carolyn Flowers, former CATS official and now a consultant on this project this week, that what they're hearing from federal officials are that there's a, there are a lot of requests out there.

The federal funds are stretched and you know, it's not necessarily a slam dunk.

So I think there is kind of that sense of urgency driving some of this, you know, there's a lot of other cities that want this money and there's not that much money, even if a new, big infrastructure bill passes, it's not infinite.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, and so, Jeff, I think you hit on something there may actually work against the project here, and that is the Biden infrastructure program.

Absolutely, if it's all up to federal dollars, that that's one thing, but again, if you have to go through a state legislature to get stuff approved, all politics are national now, as opposed to local I think because now that state legislature, which is largely and not overwhelmingly Republican, is going to see this as perhaps a political win for the Democrats and for Biden.

If we have to go through the legislature to get approved for a sales tax, I think they would dig in their heels probably partially on principle because it could be perceived as a Democratic win.

I just think the politics will get in the way.

- Politics always seems to get in the way at city council and especially when they're dealing with a state legislature that doesn't always agree with the city's priorities.

But again, this is a long way from being settled and one of the things that the city council will need before they get anything on the ballot will be an actual city election to have it on the ballot with, and we found out also this week from city council that there won't be a city election this year.

Not because they can't have one, at least on the at-large and mayor side, but because the cost of doing two elections.

At-large this year, districts next year, kind of complicated.

Anyone wanna just kind of clarify for us why council is waiting an extra year and giving themselves an extra year in office before they have another election?

- So this all came up because of the census data being delayed.

So they're not gonna get the census data in time to draw the districts.

So they had to postpone, the state passed a law actually, postponing all municipal elections that were scheduled for 2021 to the spring of 2022.

But what the city had to decide was whether to split them up and do the at-large races and mayor in the fall as planned, and then do the district races in the spring.

There were, you know, there was an argument on one side saying that if you know, you elect people for a certain amount of time you should have an election, keep them accountable, that kind of thing.

And then the other side was basically saying that, you know, this could be confusing for voters.

It could cost more money.

The Black Political Caucus came out against it saying that it could be a form of suppression because people, you know, would be confused, wouldn't know how to, or wouldn't, you know, understand that they have to vote in two different elections.

So ultimately that camp won and we're gonna have all city elections in spring of 2022.

- Yeah, it's gonna be a, that's why we need more elections, right?

(panel laughing) But yeah, it's gonna be a big ballot in 2022, not just city council, county commission, state races.

There's just gonna be a lot to, for voters to consider and again, we don't know yet if the mobility tax will be there or not, but stay tuned, we'll be talking about that I'm sure in weeks and shows to come.

Mark, let me ask you about the police chief this week.

Finally launching what we've talked about before this Customer Service Training.

I think the paper ran a headline calling it Chick-fil-A of police departments.

Will they be open Sundays?

That's what I'm asking.

(panel laughing) - Chief Jennings actually used that analogy, right?

When he was, he was talking about it and look, on the surface, it makes sense, right?

Police interact with the public.

Now, what we hear about, what we report about, frankly, are often those situations that are, you know, full tension and sometimes go wrong, but there are many, many, many, and I think Chief Jennings put it like 500,000.

They track these things actually.

Interactions with the public every year and you know, you want most of those to go well, and I think it makes sense, right.

But the optics, you know, you've got a little bit of criticism because it sounds like maybe we're trying to be, trying to try too hard to be the good cop, you know, and the bad cop, good cop, bad cop thing, but look, if it helps, if you can build relationships even in the smallest ways and, you know, deal with attitudes of officers in how they interact with the public, it's all good, I really think, and the cost was brought up.

There was some consulting fee and all that, but it's a nominal cost.

I think it doesn't cost much.

I know the FLP wasn't thrilled about spending $60,000, but in the big budget, and I'm not sure that's the number, but in the big, big, big picture budget, that's not a lot of money for the police department or the city.

So, I think this is a positive thing.

Is it the be all end all?

No, but it's a good, it's a good thing.

It's hard to find fault with it, I think.

- Yeah and you know this week city council also approved spending almost a million dollars to purchase new handguns to replace aging service weapons for Charlotte Mecklenburg police officers.

So, you know, it's not like force in that aspect of policing is going away.

I think we've seen so many of the incidents in the last several years, not just year plus, but really the last four or five years.

So many racial incidents and use of force incidents that seem to start from a routine interactions that take a turn, that's happened so often and not just here in Charlotte, but nationally.

I think you're really seeing a push to kind of address that and this general sense of, yes, we're gonna have to use force sometimes, but a routine interaction with the public should be routine.

You know, that shouldn't be what is taking turns and really going bad, if at all avoidable.

- You know, it's people like be nice, be courteous.

It's all basic human stuff, stuff you learn in kindergarten, right?

I mean, I know I've seen times when officers, you know, have been, you know, they get very abrupt very quickly because they're taught to be in charge and trained to be in charge of the situation, but you don't have to be, you know, in a negative or a real hard line person to get control of a situation.

So I think it's amazing building block and it's an attitude and it's a culture thing, I think is probably the right word that CMPD is trying to do.

And they're, you know, they're saying they're the first in the country to do this.

So we'll see how it goes.

- You know, a four-hour training session, I'm not sure that changes culture, but it does send a message to the community, at least on the part of the new police chief that they're trying to do something and whether it's fully successful or not, maybe that message is the most important thing of all here that the department isn't just not just cops and robbers, but it's cops and customers sometimes too.

Danielle, you wrote a story this week about affordable housing that might actually hurt the people it's trying to help.

You know, a lot of trade-offs in terms of trying to get things built and the cost of getting things built.

We're talking about what used to be called The Housing Partnership is now called Dream Key, but tell us about the controversy in Druid Hills that's going on between them and the neighbors.

- Yeah, so Dream Key has long been building in Druid Hills and in many other areas in Charlotte and in sort of the traditional Crescent, so to speak, the lower income majority minority part of the city, and Druid Hills is actually changing very rapidly.

So this dynamic kind of centers around the fact that housing prices have gone up, I believe 111% in the last five years there.

One of the fastest increases of any zip code in the city.

So, you know, Dream Key essentially owns about 24 lots right now in the area and they're redeveloping, they're going to build 11 homes that are affordable.

So in order to finance the construction of those homes, they're saying they're gonna sell 13 lots to a market rate developer essentially, and that's got the neighborhood upset because, you know, they essentially understood this to be all affordable homes on all 24 of those lots.

I think that what the big takeaways is, you know, one just the changing dynamics of how expensive it is to build housing, to, you know, to have to find a revenue source to be able to build homes for what's gonna be 80% of the area median income, home ownership opportunities, and so, you know, they're trying to find some revenue sources, but at the same time, you know, you've got very limited land left and you've got so many developers going into that neighborhood, tearing down houses, building huge, you know, 300, $400,000 homes and that's accelerating gentrification.

So the neighborhoods fear is, you know, hey Dream Key, are you coming in and selling these homes to a developer and then helping, you know, fuel that gentrification as opposed to providing another 13 homes that could be affordable.

But again, you know, they say that they don't have the money to have them all be affordable.

- I know when, when they were the Housing Partnership, that's a challenge they've talked about in the past, trying to keep up with the private developers in establishing housing for folks who need the housing, who can't afford the private, you know, developed housing.

And they've got a track record, obviously they've been there for decades in Druid Hills, which is by the way, traditionally, in the lowest income zip code in Charlotte.

So we're talking about, you know, the folks who really need housing, they can afford, but, you know, it's, they're kind of caught in the same, you know, in the same trap, if you will, that a lot of other neighborhoods and a lot of other organizations are, and that is, you know, can we afford to build for people who need it, you know, while the costs of building are rising so quickly, it's tough call.

- It's a balancing act, right?

I mean, I think it's something that will continue to be an issue, but it's really about balancing the ability to build those affordable homes and at the same time, realize that as the builders have expenses too.

- And, you know, I think the specter of neighborhoods like Cherry looms large over this.

Cherry, you know, historic African-American neighborhood, just east of Charlotte, and it was once owned by an entity that rented out homes affordably, ownership changed hands in a long disputed transaction, and eventually, almost all, you know, of those houses in Cherry, a huge number of them were torn down and replaced with giant lot line to lot line bungalows that sell for a million dollars now.

So, there's precedent for these concerns in Villa Heights, but the balancing act that that Mark mentioned is really real and construction prices are skyrocketing.

So it's a really, really tough situation.

- Yeah, it's a big problem playing out on a small scale in one neighborhood, but it's a problem that other neighborhoods have shared as well and I don't know if there's an answer today or, you know, in the near future, but it's something we keep talking about because it keeps getting on our radar here in Charlotte as a problem.

You know, we heard speaking of things that keep getting on our radar, we heard about Zacks Hamburgers this week, closing on South Boulevard after 50 plus years in business coming right on the heels of prices, Chicken Coop also closing.

It kind of raises, you know, neither owner talked about, you know, the changes that have happened along the blue line in South Boulevard as being an influence in their decision to close, but you know, it, you know, is it a coincidence that these older businesses that have been there forever that were there before, you know, light rail came and turned the whole area around, is, you know, is light rail that was supposed to help these businesses also may be forcing them out because of all the growth that it's bringing to the table?

You know, I don't know if this is a transit question or a growth and development question.

So Ely and Danielle I'll let you kind of fight it out first.

(Jeff laughing) - Well, the transit folks will always say transit is about economic development as much as moving people.

So, yeah, I mean, there's a link.

I think, you know, in addition to land prices going up and making it more attractive to sell, one another common denominator we've seen here is, you know, these places have been run by families, individuals.

I think the owner of Zacks talked about, you know, decades of 14, 15 hour days, these are labors of love as much as they are community institutions.

And, you know, when you have someone who's been doing that for, for decades, and then someone else comes in and offers a seven figure payday, retirement starts to look a lot more attractive.

I just think, you know, unless there is some way to subsidize, not just the monetary cost of operating these businesses, but also really that time and labor costs, none of them last forever, and to have them all happen at once, I know it's been a big identity hit that people are really feeling right now.

- Yeah, I think this is the crux of development and, you know, quote unquote progress in Charlotte.

I mean, we have all the new buildings going up in Southend and everything is shiny and new, and so I think it hurts a lot for people to see, you know, like you said, the institutions that kind of make up the character of the city be gone.

So I think the question is like, how do you, you know, is there a way, like Ely said, to keep some of them around or to, you know, kind of pass down.

Obviously there've been a lot of adaptive reuse projects around town, so they're at least keeping some old buildings and maybe finding a new purpose for them as opposed to tearing things down, you know, I think this is a really big question that gets at the issue a lot of people bring up of, you know, Charlotte tears down all of its history.

- (Jeff laughing) I've heard that before.

- And it was Mr. Case before all of this, right.

A few months ago, Mr. Case right there on South Boulevard.

Affordable eating, that may be our next topic, right.

I mean, it is, I think it's everything you've said.

It's just the development and the issue is growth, and, you know, these are family run businesses and, you know, to Ely's point other people get, they get tired.

If this were a corporate thing, you know, it's not because they're not making money, I think.

- You know, you can still get a hamburger on South Boulevard, but now it's a $15 hamburger instead of a $5 hamburger.

So it's that, I guess that's the difference as a city like ours gets bigger and that intersection of, you know, long hours and operating on the edge and a big payday offered by these developers who would love to see that land turn into something new.

I don't think this is, I guess we're running out of businesses that can go out of business, but I don't think we've heard the end of this kind of story where these old family businesses move on in part, because of what's happening all around them.

Mark, let me come back to you real quick to talk about the DA's decision this week on the Frankie Jennings shooting.

It was not a police shooting, a US Marshall shooting, but a lot of the same issues that we've seen in the past here in town.

- Yeah, and, you know, I was out there that day and it was, it's tough, and I think that the biggest takeaway on this one is we don't really know what happened.

And one of the reasons we don't know what happened is because the Federal Marshals have not worn body cameras to this point and we're told they're going to be getting them.

I think the move was actually on long before the shooting to get body cameras on those folks, but there is a video from the store and I've watched it, it's a camera positioned outside of the store, but as is often the case when agents move in and police move in to make these take downs of this guy, of Frankie Jennings who, you know, who had warrants and, you know, had some serious charges that they were trying to arrest him on, you know, they swoop in and they move cars in front of the camera, you can't see what happens is the bottom line.

He had a gun in the car somewhere, and the car was moving, you know, slightly and perhaps the agents were at risk, you know and that's the reason that the District Attorney said, the shooting was not a criminal shooting now that families are still trying to come forward with some civil action, but the bottom line is we couldn't see what happened and it's time for these folks to get body cameras, because they're in a highly leveraged, volatile situations, they need them.

- Yep, and our last minute, we're not gonna have time to cover that vape lawsuit settlement.

That's a big story, but it's a story we can talk about in the future.

I do wanna talk about something that is happening this week, and that's the end of plastic bags for your yard waste.

You know, paper or plastic used to be at the grocery store now it's on the front lawn, I suppose, another sign of progress in Charlotte, I suppose, right?

- I'm a bucket man, I have reusable containers.

I bought them once, I don't have to go to the store to buy any kind of bags.

So, I'm a bucket guy all the way.

- Just don't kick the bucket.

(panel laughing) - No, we're kicked the bucket guy.

- Fill the bucket, don't kick the bucket.

Yeah, that again, it makes sense from an environmental point of view.

If you're begging the recyclables in something that isn't quite as recyclable, you know, it does cause more work and I'm guessing there'll be a run on paper bags at the big buck stores this weekend and going forward.

But you know, just another little change that shows how Charlotte is growing, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the not so, not so much better.

Hey, we're out of time folks.

I really appreciate the discussion this week.

We covered a lot of topics and I always appreciate your presence with us.

At home as well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation this week, and anytime you wanna join us, just email your questions and comments to OffTheRecord@wtvi.org.

Thanks again for being here this week and we'll see you next time on Off The Record.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.