Tom Flanigan: Welcome to perspectives online and on air from WFSU public media.

I'm Tom Flanigan this program using the zoom platform was pre-recorded on Tuesday, January, 19th for playback on Thursday, January 21st.

Tom Flanigan: With the program appearing both on WFSU FM and the WFSU public media Facebook page.

Well, you probably have noticed that the way in which many of our towns and cities.

Tom Flanigan: Is organized is it's not really an accident, any community where the streets are laid out in a grid, creating a series of squares.

Tom Flanigan: Dates back several centuries, actually, and some notable examples of that just here in North Florida would include well Tallahassee Tom Flanigan: And Apalachicola and on today's perspectives.

We're going to be talking with some folks who are deeply involved in restoring Apalachicola is historic city center to a squared configuration as it was historically and we're going to find out what this Tom Flanigan: nod to the town's past will mean potentially to its future.

It's an exciting project and we got some exciting folks to talk about it here on perspectives and let's go around the deal zoom grid, since we're talking squares and Tom Flanigan: Meet everyone who's going to be a part of the conversation today.

First is Diane Brewer retired banker who moved to Apalachicola because it is still an authentic historic town always interested in preservation Tom Flanigan: She was inspired by the groundbreaking work of Willoughby.

Tom Flanigan: Marshall to take on the role of project manager pro bono to restore Apalachicola those historic squares.

She also put together the rest of this outstanding panel, we are forever in your debt Diane Brewer, and welcome to perspectives.

It's so good to hear you and see you today.

Welcome Tom Flanigan: We also say hi to Kim hello Romero, a senior at the fam you FSU College of Engineering less than a stone's throw away from WFSU Tom Flanigan: Graduating this April with a civil environmental degree Camilo primarily focused his efforts on the construction engineering scope.

Tom Flanigan: And the senior design project and I can't wait to delve into that Camilla.

Thank you so much for joining us on perspectives today.

It's good to have you on Camilo Romero: Thank you for having me.

Tom Flanigan: Alright, we move over to john Travis Marshall, Associate Professor of Law at Georgia State University, where he teaches environmental law land use law and property law.

Tom Flanigan: Interested in how local laws and local governments can improve resilience to, disasters and economic shocks.

Tom Flanigan: Gee, I don't know what kind of disaster could ever fall a coastal town like Apalachicola but I'm sure we'll find out.

Prior to entering law teaching john left his law practice in Tampa and then join the New Orleans Redevelopment Authority.

Tom Flanigan: Nor as it's known as a project manager and council and for four years.

He helped implement post Hurricane Katrina urban revitalization efforts for neighborhoods throughout Orleans Parish.

Tom Flanigan: Big job john.

And thank you for joining this panel today.

That'll be fascinating.

In the extreme to to see what kind of resilience ideas you have for Apalachicola, sir.

John Marshall: Thanks Tom.

Looking forward to sharing Tom Flanigan: We have also speaking of marshals Marie Marshall, though, formerly retired in 2003 as a healthcare administrator here in Florida.

Tom Flanigan: Murray has a master's graduate degree from Fordham University continues her professional role as an educator, while serving as vice president of bring me a book, Franklin.

An early literacy effort.

Tom Flanigan: Dedicated to preschoolers.

There is an educational component in this whole project and Marie, we're going to tap your expertise in that direction and beyond.

If that's okay today.

Marie Marshall: Thank you Tom and I am not JOHN AND JOHN AND I ARE RELATED.

Marie Marshall: We're a mother's son team, following the legacy of my husband will be and his dad so nice to be with you.

Tom Flanigan: What a wonderful legacy and continuation of what is to a large degree, a family affair.

So it's good to have the Marshal clan well represented today in the discussion, folks.

Tom Flanigan: Well, is TALLAHASSEE, IS ONE OF THE seething hotbeds of legalistic pursuit.

We have to have a barrister on board today and that is Robert Volpi Tom Flanigan: A land use attorney with the law firm of humping green and Sam's here in Tallahassee Robert advises the foundation on this project as well as their other endeavors in the city of avalanche Collins good to get Tom Flanigan: Those I's dotted and T's crossed.

Robert, thanks for your input today.

Robert Volpe: Yes, sir.

Thank you, Tom.

I'm glad to be here and I've enjoyed working on this project with the team.

Tom Flanigan: Let's get the 30,000 foot overview and Diane Brewer.

If I can throw that to you the genesis of this whole initiative.

Tom Flanigan: To take the city of Apalachicola back to its historic configuration.

When it comes to the streets, the historic squares all that.

Where did that come from, was that just someone came up with the, the idea with the Marshall Plan or or somebody else that did that happen.

Diane Brewer: Well, actually, I'm glad you asked that.

This is a great place to start.

I'm going to start with my involvement and I'm going to Diane Brewer: Back into where the project really started but my involvement and awareness of this, the situation.

Diane Brewer: Became about a year after I moved here, although I was long aware of astrological is history and appeal as a historic authentic town and had visited it many times.

Diane Brewer: It takes as often, it does a crisis to to be a catalyst to action.

So the catalyst for that came about after a year after I moved here.

The CVS drugstore chain had applied to the city to build a mega store.

Diane Drewer: Of 12,000 square feet in size, covering a couple of blocks on our major highway 98 which runs through town abutting one of the city squares and its historic cemetery.

So I was appalled that they could even that could even be considered and Diane Brewer: To see what protections.

There were four and the city in the historic district of the town in general.

So that's, that's how I got started.

So the, the involvement.

Diane Brewer: In in this project more formalized along the path.

Diane Brewer: Of that, that being the beginning so there were many more steps in the road which we can come to later but this might be a good point to, to go back to what really got this started was will it be Marshall retired.

Diane Brewer: Now passed away architect and native of Appalachia Google inspired me to because of his, his groundbreaking work in 1975 which created the historic district here in Apalachicola and it was his dream to Diane Brewerr: protect and restore the squares.

The six historic squares of Appalachia skull and I learned about it because of the crisis appearing that they might be further damage.

So that got me back I backed into the limelight with that.

Tom Flanigan: Okay but Marie Marshall, then you picked up your light husband's mantle, if you will, to, to help to advance this project to move it forward along with the help from son john is that was that part of the genesis of this as well.

Marie Marshall: Really this Yankee married this native of Apalachicola 50 some odd years got we've died this past June and we always went home to visit his mother who whose we live in the Marie Marshall: We eventually settled back into the family home in the late 80s, but I always worked with him as I worked my own profession of education, mainly and and shared his dream, he, he was Marie Marshall: A man who held onto his dreams.

And so, to try to bring them to reality.

But this plan of his which which is will say memorialized in the volume that Marie Marshall: We republished in 2009 talked about Marie Marshall: The restoration of the town's plan from the 1830s, specifically the squares that could be used as outdoor living rooms and Marie Marshall: So in the late 80s, he in a like minded group of mostly Apalachicola natives formed the historic Apalachicola foundation and and the I've been working nights.

After, after a day at my own work with him and and helping to move, move it along.

We both we saw together.

Marie Marshall: The, the reality and then it happened with the Gibson ends birth in the Marie Marshall: early 90s.

That was the really first big step toward preserving the sticks and stones that were there and then gradually folks saw the potential there and historic fabric and and so it's it's grown slowly and become a place to Marie Marshall: To come and be refreshed and savor the history and and enjoy that the see which is that its feet.

Marie Marshall: And so, yeah, I'm I'm continuing our all of our kids are interested in Marie Marshall: Interested in one one is Marie Marshall: Teaching in that field that preservation is part of part of his journey to but that's a life lived out you know it's been a good good journey.

Tom Flanigan: Well, that's a nice segue to another fellow traveler on that journey John Marshall Tom Flanigan: To the perhaps CASUAL OBSERVER, IT SEEMS when you drive through Apalachicola john, not just on 98 but you detour on some of the side streets and back alleyways and all that your impression is of a city that is fairly well preserved already.

Why is it necessary to Tom Flanigan: I guess restore what was there historically.

What difference will that make you think John Marshall: Yeah, so I think a few points.

Tom are important to consider and Diane and Robert and and Camilo will pick up on on on these points in additional ones, but a few include just the landmark status of the landmark nature of the town plan itself.

John Marshall: The fact that this is a way of the city renewing itself and driving forward economic development and also there's an opportunity here.

I think Tom John Marshall: The day after Martin Luther King's birthday for thinking about equity and community development and how this effort to restore for city squares across the entire fabric of the city to John Marshall: Tire layout of the of the city gives a chance for all neighborhoods in the city to join in the growth and development of the city in a very special way.

John Marshall: So just on the first point quickly time, you know, the John Marshall: Ecological has as many have taught me and my dad and my mom I learned from great teachers.

John Marshall: Talked about the the era of the various areas of development of the city.

So starting with the cotton era in the middle of the 19th century.

Moving to the lumber era that straddled the move into the 20th century, and then the Great Year of commercial fishing.

John Marshall: That we all know.

And then most lately.

What drew us all to Apalachicola as visitors and from far and wide is heritage tourism and seeing the historic nature and fabric of the city.

I think one of the things that's wonderful about John Marshall: The squares and realizing the city plan is that there's nothing gimmicky about this so many cities.

John Marshall: Across the country and in Florida have to look for certain types of gimmicks the ferris wheel.

What have you to bring people home or bring people to the city.

John Marshall: But there are historic and current drivers of growth that are genuine and rooted in the city.

And that's what's so special.

I think about this initiative.

John Marshall: As I was thinking for today I thought Tom, you know, the ancient Greek term of gnosis and coming home.

John Marshall: And returning home.

And really this is at the root.

I think of what we understand the penis delta.

And I think a lot of people feel that for Apalachicola it reaches back to a point.

John Marshall: In our past, but also our present that's grounding for us.

And it's wonderful awaking of interest in the city in the return to thinking about the squares.

John Marshall: So I think, I think that's to be celebrated.

The other is just the personal view, Tom, you know, you probably have walked the streets like Diane and my mom and Camilo has in his work and Robert John Marshall: But early in the morning or late at night, the alleys, the streets, the squares as they exist now create really special VISTAs to the river and to the bay.

John Marshall: And two other points of interest, like Lafayette Park or Battery Park throughout the city.

So the designers of the city over almost two centuries ago had something in mind that John Marshall: The integrity of the city plan tied the city together and created a wonderful asset for its citizens, as my mom Maria was saying, a type of living room for the city.

And then finally, just John Marshall: I think this is so important at this, this time just to say that we love it out.

Downtown.

Downtown Apalachicola and we love the water John Marshall: But there are so many other corners of the city.

And there are corners of the city where development hasn't occurred at the same pace.

John Marshall: And I think that the squares project allows, particularly in our historically African American neighborhoods in the city on a grounding and an asset that John Marshall: all sectors of the city can build on, not just in terms of value of real estate but in terms of open spaces for people to enjoy.

John Marshall: Whether it's civic events neighborhood events family events.

John Marshall: That's something that I think all families can appreciate and it's just one piece of the Community Development puzzle.

But if we can get this piece of the puzzle, right.

John Marshall: Other pieces of the puzzle can fall in line and help create opportunities for investment that will help all all sectors of the city.

Tom Flanigan: A major part of that puzzle piece, though, has to be the redesign the reimagining, if you will, of what was historically there.

Tom Flanigan: And Camille Romero, that is where you come in.

First of all, how did you get involved in this, did these guys just come to you and say, hey, we need a plan.

Can you help us out or what happened.

Camilo Romero: So I was in a group, I wanted to give a shout out to them.

Shelby Megan and Jessica together.

We had a group of senior design and we're trying to figure out what our project was going to be that we're going to work on for two semesters.

Camilo Romero: And then one class session Marie and Diane actually came to class and presented what they were doing the historic Apalachicola foundation Camilo Romero: And we just knew we wanted to be a part of their story.

Camilo Romero: When you like our project.

We just didn't want it to be a normal report to to turn in for a grave and wanted to find something that would actually bring some goodness to an area and so Camilo Romero: We were just on board from the start.

And once we looked at the plans that they gave us like some aerial footage is and hearing what they wanted to do, because one Camilo Romero: One saying that like set out to us from Dan was square should be squares.

Camilo Romero: And so when we look at the current intersection with Avenue D and 14th Street.

We just knew it wasn't possible because it was separate into four different sectors and there wasn't a coherent central space.

Camilo Romero: So with that we just came up with different ideas of how we could like reroute the traffic to make sure we wouldn't interrupt the current flow but still create a central space out reveal for recreation.

Camilo Romero: And so with Megan did was she created this square round about shape kind of think of like an outline of an app on your phone.

And with that, we'd have yulin signs and easily accessible pedestrian access where Camilo Romero: It just create the smooth overall function that would deliver the deliver the overall mission of what this group is trying to do and help us complete this project for our professor and to pass our class as well.

Tom Flanigan: Well, I gotta ask you in the original configuration of six squares and Apalachicola how many of the original structures that occupied those squares.

Tom Flanigan: Are still there.

And how many did you have to say, okay, that isn't there anymore.

But there's opportunities, perhaps, for some kind of, I don't know amenable modern development that would not fly in the face of what was there at one time.

Camilo Romero: Well, I can't speak to specifically that when this project is presented, it was, it was the focus was Chapman square.

And so that was our main Camilo Romero: Our main assessment was looking at that one.

But my three teammates did got to the sites and did visit the other squares.

Camilo Romero: And we have pictures that helped us kind of like gauge a sense of what the size was and what Camilo Romero: Each one would bring the town.

And so we just made sure that what we were doing at Chapman square specifically would have a transferable concept that can be easily applied to those other areas, just to ensure that we'd rather be Camilo Romero: Their original intention of the squares to be as they were Tom Flanigan: Okay, very good.

But, but still history moves on what was yesterday may not be today.

And whenever you get into any kind of redevelopment you are into a Tom Flanigan: Potential legal morass Robert Volpi.

What did you see going into this project, what were the pitfalls and how do you kind of work around that.

Tom Flanigan: To realize what we're talking about today.

Robert Volpe: Well, thanks Tom Robert Volpe: I'd like to go back.

And first I was inspired by Willoughby's work and Murray held up a copy of his, his study that Robert Volpe: Economic development through historic preservation.

When we talk about squares, the entire city is laid out in a grid, but there are certain areas where original originally the roads dead ended into a public space and the roadway would go around this public Square Park.

Robert Volpe: Or other there's a set city center square.

The largest square Washington Square.

Each of these squares was named and designated as a Robert Volpe: gathering place a park.

One good example of this is in Savannah, there are in the downtown historic Savannah, where the roads, the grid pattern roads dead end into Robert Volpe: An open public space.

And over time, the squares and Apalachicola have been bisected by by roads that essentially goes straight through them.

Robert Volpe: The opportunity is that the city owns Robert Volpe: The majority of the properties around those those intersections.

So restoring the squares is really an engineering challenge, more so than it it Robert Volpe: Partially is a legal challenge, but the engineering challenge is to reroute the roads and the pedestrian access the storm water and other infrastructure in a way that that restores these previously public spaces back into a place that can be used by the public.

Robert Volpe: Chapman square was was the initial Robert Volpe: Focus of this project because the city owns all four corners of Chapman square, which are currently bisected but this was proposed to the students as an opportunity to Robert Volpe: Be creative and think about how to take that engineering challenge and in turn it back into a public space.

Robert Volpe: Moving forward, there will be some conversations and initiatives with the city, we would we would expect that there are plenty of supporters in Robert Volpe: In the city leadership and also citizens of Apalachicola but these are, this is a quality of life type project.

Robert Volpe: It will, it will cost cost money to do the engineering and some of the work as this moves forward.

And those are the conversations that we're going to have with Robert Volpe: With the city and with other leadership and Apalachicola because these these kinds of quality of life projects radiate to to surrounding neighborhoods to economic development.

Robert Volpe: And to to businesses.

So we're encouraged by the work that the students have done they they laid the groundwork.

Robert Volpe: I will say that the this partnership with FSU family college.

College of Engineering.

The work done by the students is as professional of a job as I've ever seen from any professional engineering firm.

I'm very impressed by the work that they did and Robert Volpe: Being able to take that that groundwork, and then Robert Volpe: move that forward as something that comes into fruition.

We're, we're excited about taking the next step there.

Tom Flanigan: Were talking about the re imagination of the historic squares all six of them ultimately Tom Flanigan: And the coastal community of Apalachicola the county seat of Franklin County out in the Florida Panhandle Tom Flanigan: On perspectives from WSU public media, hey, if you miss our part of the program.

It's always available online, not just on our WF su.org website.

Tom Flanigan: But also our W FSU public media, Facebook page.

We try to have it up.

Tom Flanigan: As quick as we can.

After the program actually airs on the radio, and then you can go back and listen to it as many times as you want and also see the participants.

If you're joining us on Facebook, Diane Brewer.

I think Robert Volpi just hit on a Tom Flanigan: interesting side note that not only is it going to take funding and we know how much of a challenge that could be in just about any avenue of redevelopment right now.

Tom Flanigan: But also buy in from the rest of the community.

So there's the foundation and it's project its objectives have, you know, total buy in from all the folks in Apalachicola have you gotten any pushback.

What's the situation there.

Diane Brewer: That's a good question.

We have been working on this project for a few years now.

Not as many as the marshals did or Willoughby.

Diane Brewer: But we have gained a lot of traction and support over the past five years.

The end.

I'm glad to say that the the I'm encouraged by that and, you know, we put in place a few things that will keep us moving forward in the right direction.

Diane Brewer: We have gotten feedback and comments along the way, which is good because we need to know where those concerns are so that we can address them or lay them because you know I've heard, I have heard all kinds of Diane Brewer: comments that were unfounded that give me Diane Brewer: Awareness of.

There's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about what this project may be about.

So, that is that is good for us to know.

So we haven't gotten Diane Brewer: Indications both positive and some negative or concerns like someone was concerned that we were going to move Dr. glory's grave off of gory square.

Again, which is not true.

Diane Brewer: Somebody else made some comment that that we were going to tear down everything, including people's houses that were on the squares.

No, there are no houses on the squares so so Diane Brewer: That brings to the forefront of my awareness, the issues and concerns that people very realistically have so we need to allay those fears.

So having said that, you know, Diane Brewer: At every, every time there is an opportunity to to make this long range project known I take advantage of it through very Diane Brewer: Various means.

In fact, I have to say I'm thrilled at the involvement of FSU for for its and indebted to them for three things.

First of all, Diane Brewer: The show the squares were the subject of a local roots PBS presentation for about five minutes that we did last year and Diane Brewer: We wouldn't have been able to have them incredibly wonderful work that fam you FSU College of Engineering did if it weren't for FS us embrace.

So those are two that I can't be, can't be more of a serious about their my thanking Diane Brewer: Thank FSU and W FSU.

So thank you again.

So having said that, we, those are some of the things that that enable us to reach out beyond Diane Brewer: The what what people visitors to come to app electrical actually see, in fact, in a lot of places, there really is nothing to see.

Diane Brewer: And we really the Long Range goal of this project is to be able to enable the squares to be seen and they need to be restored and improved to make them visible public spaces that they were and should be.

So the other things that have been miraculously fallen into my lap are Diane Brewer: The Diane Brewer: Some two colleagues of mine, one for one a community now a board member of the historic Appalachian excuse me Appalachia call historic society.

Diane Brewer: And former city planner for the city of Apalachicola the three of us wrote a brochure highlighting the history of ecological as grid and it's six city squares.

It never had such a Diane Brewer: Document before.

So now that has, you know, gotten a lot of distribution.

So, we're glad of that, and the other organizations, this sort society rotary Diane Brewer: You know, have given us some encouragement along the way.

So I take all of those opportunities to tell people about the squares.

In fact, probably, people would wish I would stop talking about the squares.

In fact, I've been coming, known as the square lady.

Diane Brewer: So there.

There are lots more steps along the way.

But the ones that the the enthusiasm and encouragement and objections that we've heard so far have have helped us and Diane Brewer: Forward along the path.

And of course, Diane Brewer: The owner implemented without the king.

Diane Brewer: And the approval of the City Commission, which owns the land under five almost five of the city squares.

They own less than all of one and Diane Brewer: All the rest of the rest.

So they own for completely the fifth one is the old partially and the sixth one.

Sadly, it was sold in the past about 50 years ago.

So we have a lot of work left to do but we made a lot of progress.

Tom Flanigan: Well, the square lady, I can certainly think of worse paths to notoriety Diane.

That's pretty good.

I like that.

Tom Flanigan: Marie Marshall, since you are an educator.

Let's talk about history and what it means to reclaim at least a portion of the communities historical background, it's its layout its iconic street configuration, really, what does that mean, why is that important to you, they Marie Marshall: Will you know just continuing on from Diane's point education is is the greatest imperative that we have Marie Marshall: Preservation always has battles attached to it in terms of bringing people to an understanding of what you're about.

Marie Marshall: Because usually, the issues are bigger than they're bigger than ourselves.

But they're beyond our imagining because in terms of space for us to what is Marie Marshall: And to see what could be is it's always a challenge.

JOHN I was thinking of your time in New Orleans after Katrina, where you worked was how did education play into that.

Marie Marshall: Time.

John Marshall: Oh, gosh.

Well, I think that education.

There's education that goes both ways, right.

So, as Robert and Diane were saying this, you were just saying on John Marshall: There is a there's a two way road insofar as a lot of listening has to occur with respect to what the community wants to see, and then it's as Robert laid up and and Diane, you were saying, wonderful history just squares themselves.

And I think that John Marshall: Naturally, that because the squares existed in mostly undeveloped state now.

John Marshall: There's not an idea of what the, what the vision, the future vision could be and how it could promote development.

John Marshall: Across the city.

I think that's the beauty of Camilla his work and his colleagues at the College of Engineering and fam you an FSU is they create they give flesh to that vision which is so important.

John Marshall: So I think, you know, those are.

That's the sort of critical connection for for education.

John Marshall: You know, in brief summary.

Tom Flanigan: Okay.

Marie Marshall: And I don't know if I answered your question fully in terms of the history.

I think we always Marie Marshall: Are measured by the present.

If we take a look at the past, William.

If you visit Williamsburg, they have a wonderful public education.

Marie Marshall: Session that talks about that how the past is a measure of of what what is the present and what is to be in and to be conscious of that history.

Marie Marshall: For this little coastal town that was born in the 1831 it was laid out modeled after Philadelphia, with its squares.

And that's how Marie Marshall: Will it be was sitting in a an architecture history of architecture class at Notre Dame in 19 in the 1940s and the prof drew Philadelphia with it squares.

And he said, Marie Marshall: I had lived in the town for almost 20 years but never realized they were squares there and that that he wrote to the van city clerk who still has relatives in town.

Mr. Don and said, is this.

This is what I'm here, I'm thinking, having learned this.

Is it true and Marie Marshall: Mr. Todd check month to research it.

We called him and said, yes, it is it is modeled after Philadelphia, so Marie Marshall: Then that always was in his mind.

He practiced in Cambridge, Massachusetts and and various other places, but he would come home to visit the family home which is mother kept until her death and and Marie Marshall: He had that that vision.

So in 1973 we applied for a hug grant to to bring the planning and the thought into Marie Marshall: For to formalize it and then he assembled a team of of wonderful young people to whom I hope will come.

We're planning a symposium at pledged colon.

Marie Marshall: And Kelly and pull a Cortez were part of the team with web and we would bring and we brought students from the University of Notre Dame down.

And whoops mother cooked for them.

Marie Marshall: Put them up.

And so we had again I want to compliment Camilla, and his wonderful teammates young minds are so creative.

Marie Marshall: With and they were there what you've done for us Camilla, and your fellow classmates is such a gift and and we have to treasure.

Marie Marshall: The state system to I want to give credit to the Florida higher education system.

We have a wonderful jewel their and their examples of the jewels, so Marie Marshall: long and short we're blessed by history there and now there are wonderful is another generation of folks maybe six and their newly retired who've come in and have appreciated what's there are worker worker peace and and have broke through brilliant minds to so Tom Flanigan: What Camilla Romero, you have certainly been the target of some accolades here.

So let's talk about some of the challenges that you and your colleagues had Tom Flanigan: Beyond what you'd already discussed when it was ups.

Wait a second.

The new road goes this way.

The old road went that way, we can't put it back exactly the way it was will have to modify it somehow.

But Tom Flanigan: And looking to there's old coastal town and trying to recreate it while still not just slavish leap fall following the past.

How did you guys do that and also work.

Can we get a picture of the overall concept that you guys came up with.

Camilo Romero: Okay, great question.

I will, I think, Diane has a copy.

If not, I can forward you a picture of our drawings that you can include Camilo Romero: As for other challenges we face mean when we had was site, creating being so close to the coast when you Camilo Romero: Flooding could be a big issue.

We knew that currently there's one part of the section that flooding does happen, so I'm Camilo Romero: Just did a lot of analysis on the earth work just to make sure, literally laid the foundation so Shelby could create enough elevation work so that we would time to the current underwater storm water system.

Camilo Romero: That way, we wouldn't have to sacrifice any of the space of the square for a storm water pond and just let it all be like a flat area where everyone can walk on because we just felt that it would just, it would, it wouldn't look as nice as having like a pond.

I'm sorry.

Camilo Romero: They had just having upon in the center just wouldn't visit bit wouldn't have been as nice as being able to just walk everywhere and just enjoy the space for what it could maximum beyond its full maximum Tom Flanigan: Okay, yeah.

Yeah, just a storm water pond is it's a nice amenity but you can't do much with it.

Tom Flanigan: But here, if I can flip over you John Marshall since you had all of that connection with what happened in New Orleans during Katrina, we know with sea level rise, and the fact Tom Flanigan: That Apalachicola is a coastal community.

We do have that possibility of flooding, particularly during a hurricane induced storm surge.

Is that also a factor in recreating the squares to make them in your words more resilient than otherwise.

They might be John Marshall: Thanks Tom.

And I'm so glad Camilla you reminded us of the storm water drainage issues.

And so I think that's a great question.

It's a nice example to right John Marshall: So, drawing on the comments that Robert had about planning and the importance of planning talking about what my mom Marie just said about the 1975 study John Marshall: A good plan here with respect to what the squares can do Tom can help leverage funding as we move forward on this project will unfold over John Marshall: Probably the course of a couple of decades.

But if the planning documents already in place then funding institutions, whether they be public or private John Marshall: Or other nonprofit entities that are willing to pitch in.

They won't do.

So unless there are good planning documents that they can look at.

So to answer your, your, your point squarely on John Marshall: Knowing somewhat something about the geography city.

One of the lower lying areas of the city is the historically African American part of the city.

John Marshall: And that's just part of the topography, the original topography of the city that you can see in the John Marshall: underlay of the original 1834 city plan and it's a the folks who drafted the plan show the underlying natural features.

And so you can see the old sort of ponds and streams that were in parts of the city.

John Marshall: And there are low lying areas on both sides in all neighborhoods in the city.

I think it's a great example of where if you can plan right for handling stormwater John Marshall: In a way that isn't just like Camilla said so.

Well, not just a pond, but you can create water retention and detention areas that are in a static feature that not only John Marshall: Bring people to look at the future, but the relief.

People have some of the storm water drainage problems that prevent them from living the type of daily lives that they would like to live, particularly in the event.

John Marshall: Of a major storm and Tom.

If I could just tag on one thing there since disaster lies.

One of the areas that John Marshall: I do a lot of thinking about the squares, though they serve many purposes before this in terms of John Marshall: Squares is Lucas for civic life community economic development neighborhood gathering spaces, etc.

John Marshall: In times of crisis and disaster, we actually look to public spaces to serve as triage points temporary housing points.

John Marshall: And so redeveloped squares would be close to hookups or have hookups to water to electricity, they would have open spaces and way that they're not open and connected now.

John Marshall: So then in times of crisis, when you need nine months or a year and you want to keep people in town, because any small town.

John Marshall: Would kills a small town in a time of disaster is when folks leave Apalachicola and they move to Tallahassee or Panama City and then their kids are in schools there.

John Marshall: They never come back.

But in desperate times a desperate need as we've seen, right there.

NEXT DOOR IN PORT ST. JOE Mexico beach Panama City.

John Marshall: If you have a well located public spaces with the basic amenities.

John Marshall: You also have what can be a disaster mitigation and resilience tool as far as helping a community bounce back in the event of a disaster.

So, so this is certainly John Marshall: Tertiary to all these other great goals.

I think you know Romero's point about storm water drainage feeds into this issue of disaster and hazard mitigation as well.

Tom Flanigan: Yet, but the other facet.

Tom Flanigan: Of that and rubber Volta.

You may have some insight in this area.

When you were talking about any kind of disaster mitigation when you're talking about a storm water handling when you're talking about Tom Flanigan: Community redevelopment historic preservation.

All of these kinds of things.

We may be facing a $2 billion shortfall potentially Tom Flanigan: Here in the state of Florida when it comes to the state budget, but there are still grants available out there for those sorts of things are there.

Not that maybe could lend a hand on this project.

Robert Volpe: That's right there.

There are and Robert Volpe: As we talk about next steps for this project one of those will be to seek out Robert Volpe: The right types of grants and funding that that match these community development initiatives.

These quality of life tech projects small towns like Apalachicola Robert Volpe: There are there are several different options there from the federal and state level and we're looking to our local community partners, the city and other organizations that Diane mentioned Robert Volpe: To help partner on these these types of initiatives.

There are there are several different options for for funding, whether it's directly in in the city's infrastructure work plan.

Robert Volpe: Partnered with other projects, maybe renovations to the master stormwater plan.

Robert Volpe: Or or other infrastructure needs.

And then there are the more direct grant funding that could be used for historic preservation.

Because really, when you get down to the to this project.

It is a historic preservation initiative have a public own space.

Robert Volpe: And Robert Volpe: Along the same lines, this is we're looking back, but we're also looking forward, and I have the pleasure to work on a lot of New Urbanism designed communities.

There are several examples along the Big Ben coast.

Robert Volpe: West of Apalachicola and many of those communities are designed with this same idea in mind of the centerpiece being a public square where the Robert Volpe: The community gathers whether it's for celebration or in if sometimes unnecessary in times of crisis or for conversation.

Robert Volpe: Community squares, where the the first the first place of First Amendment rights was gathering the square to to have your conversations.

It's, it's fascinating to me to work on a project where Robert Volpe: The new urbanists are are redesigning cities in this way that existed 200 years ago in Apalachicola and we're trying Robert Volpe: Although we're looking back, we're also moving this forward to match up with with what what the current, the current planning world sees as as the best design.

And I will say many of my planner friends and colleagues have Mr. Marshall's book on their shelf, because the his work of Apalachicola Robert Volpe: It, it informs a lot of things that are that are done on brand new developments along 38 or or other areas.

Tom Flanigan: You hearken to something that we saw the beginning of here in Tallahassee now a nationwide movement.

Tom Flanigan: To try to reconcile differing political and other opinions in a civil and civilized manner, a little group called the village where there's a reason.

You're right.

Robert that Tom Flanigan: Those sorts of places have become just synonymous with that sort of Tom Flanigan: sitting down and trying to work out our divisions and problems and all of that timeframe Diane we're.

How do you see this playing out over what space of time, when can we expect to see at least the first square and then it's it's sisters and brothers coming online.

Diane Brewer: Good question.

Diane Brewer: We read it under the auspices of the historic ecological foundation charged the family FSU College of Engineering senior team with Diane Brewer: Creating a template that could be applied to any of the other squares and they chose Chapman to work on.

Diane Brewer: As an there was an alternative to that also could have been worked on, because the city owns all four quadrants of these particular squares.

Diane Brewer: And there are the fewest amounts of development components that few amounts of object obstacles.

So they chose Diane Brewer: Chapman square to work on, but it is a repeat repeatable template that can be applied to other squares.

So the I can't say enough about the wonderful work they did because it is not solely conceptually really went to, to, to into great detail the most Diane Brewer: The most visible feature of a redesigned squares, having the traffic go around it.

Diane Brewer: Not through it as it currently does, which dates back to when the automobile was coming into popularity.

So, so moving this the streets office squares is the was the first and the most Diane Brewer: Important goal, having the one square restored, which is answer your question is the most immediate near term goal, but I have to say much work needs to be done because Diane Brewer: Not only does the community have to embrace the restoration.

The City Commission has to approve it, and they have to approve any grants that are applied for so I'll do that as maybe we probably won't get Diane Brewer: In the, in the Diane Brewer: The on deck circle if to use a baseball metaphor for maybe two years.

So I think it will take us a year to gain much more public support for the Diane Brewer: Idea of doing them for many, many, many reasons.

And then the city's approval will flow from the communities approbation, and then grants can be applied for.

So I think it's probably a two, three year Diane Brewer: Time horizon to to approach getting one squared done.

And once we get one done which Camilla, and his team finally also put together a timeframe for construction.

Diane Brewer: Once the community sees something they'll say, Yes, I want that on that square.

So, once you can see it, it will be more compelling when they have a point of reference.

So I'm really excited about the the rest of the road as as I am about what has preceded it.

Tom Flanigan: Final comments, folks.

As time has been flying by here this hour.

And we certainly do appreciate it.

Diane, any final thoughts from you.

We have about a minute each to wrap up, please.

Diane Brewer: I just want to add two things, the Apalachicola project restoring the historic squares has the ability to be communicated with em communicate Diane Brewer: Via a Facebook page, which is under his app Apple magical as historic squares.

You can reach me Diane Brewer: Through Gmail address restore squares 2020 at GMAIL.

COM.

You can request a copy and brochure information keep track of our progress.

Join us and contribute and we would love to have we welcome all comers.

Thank you very much FSU for giving us so many treasures today.

Tom Flanigan: Thank you, Diane Murray Marshall, you're up next.

Marie Marshall: Well, I'm glad I'm following the optimist in the group.

It's taken 47 years to get a conversation like this really Marie Marshall: walking and talking and I think we need it.

We need leadership within the community elected leaders as well as voluntary leaders to grasp the good that will be brought in.

So I'm hopeful.

I would maybe double the year, two years, Diane Marie Marshall: And still be an optimist and say for but it's a wonderful Marie Marshall: Town and it's it's people are have always been a treasure and they're continuing to be thank you tom so much and again to our State University College system, our gratitude for all you are into Tom Flanigan: Okay, well, we'll let son John Marshall take over from there, sir.

John Marshall: Thanks Tom.

I guess the last thing I would say is that our neighborhoods where the squares squares are located.

They're really the engines of our cities little and small little and big John Marshall: And they help make them special places of culture and beauty and celebration.

And so I think this project is in support of that and then Tom just to last shout out.

John Marshall: To one of my mentors, University of Florida.

Professor Roy hunt who work so hard with my dad and others to help promote preservation John Marshall: And Apalachicola there's so many who've had their hands in this effort.

He's one of them.

Many are going on mentioned but Diane and Robert and my mom and Camilo are are John Marshall: Carrying on the work of so many great people who have who are with us and those who have gone before us and we're grateful for all their efforts.

Tom Flanigan: THANK YOU, JOHN.

A final word from one of the great designers, Camillo Romero, sir.

Camilo Romero: Oh yeah, we're just really happy to be a part of this project and just creating something that'd be accessible to all in the community and just restore the town's historic identity was just a really cool experience.

Camilo Romero: And while we worked on the project, we often talked about just how surreal.

It would be in like a few years to come back and to see, you know, when we were working on full scale in real life.

Tom Flanigan: And the plan was made flesh.

I think it's the old saying on that counselor last word from you, Robert.

Open Robert Volpe: And you tell them I have been inspired in working on this project by those who came before me that have worked on it for years and years.

Robert Volpe: By the work of will be Marshall and I've been inspired by the creativity and the fresh perspective from from the student group, I think it was Robert Volpe: Visionary of Maria and Diane to partner with FSU fam you College of Engineering and the students brought a fresh perspective they brought creative engineering design I Robert Volpe: Know that all four of them will will have great careers in front of them as as professional engineers and and I've been inspired by both Robert Volpe: Prior ends and the future there, there may be some hurdles ahead of us.

But I think that we have community buy in.

We have encouragement from Robert Volpe: From neighbors and groups and the City Commission other leaders and we look forward to taking this this initial plan and restoring the squares and restoring Apalachicola the historic area to do its glory.

Tom Flanigan: It'll be a sight to see the historic Apalachicola city squares resurrection.

Thanks to all of our panelists today folks and Tom Flanigan: Good luck with the project.

And we're so happy you could appear on perspectives which is produced by WFSU public media in Tallahassee Tom Flanigan: Also thanks to tailor talks Paul damn Amy Diaz to Vegas.

Tom Flanigan: Brandon Brown, Trisha Moynahan and Lidl roles, our director of content.

Tim Kelly executive producer and on top line again you know we've had such a good time and Apalachicola.

Today we're going to return next week and head out onto the river of the same name.

Tom Flanigan: The dispute over that rivers water has been elevated.

Now, as you may have heard to US Supreme Court consideration.

Tom Flanigan: And there's a restorative moratorium on oyster harvesting and the rivers Bay.

We're going to talk about that and much more next week right here on perspectives from WF as you public media.

Take care.

Tom Flanigan: Folks, that's it.

Thank you.

Also, Thank you.

Camilo Romero: Thank you.

Marie Marshall: Thank you, Tom.

Tom Flanigan: I'll be I'll be out and see you guys because I want to watch this in in fruition.

I cannot wait to see it.

Diane Brewer: You will be invited for sure.

Thanks again.

Diane Brewer: Thank you.

Tom Flanigan: Ray Robert john give me a lot.

Take care, guys.

Diane Brewer: Bye Bye now.

Bye bye.