Welcome to Politically Speaking.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion, chancellor's professor of political science and director of Community Engagement and the American Democracy Project at Indiana University, South Bend.

Over the weekend, Michigan Republicans made a significant move by voting to remove Kristina Karamo, the chair of Michigan Republican Party.

In response, Karamo has raised questions about the legitimacy of the vote, setting the stage for potential legal battles, adding to the complexity there are reports of financial instability within the party.

Joining us this week to discuss the future of the Michigan GOP is state Representative Brad Paquette, a Republican representing Michigan's 37th District.

Thanks so much for being here.

absolutely.

Thank you for having me on today.

Well, as you know, this story is grabbing a lot of headlines.

The recent decision to remove the GOP party chair really has created a lot of internal strife.

As you think about this evolving story.

What do you see as the main reasons behind this decision?

Well, there are a lot of reasons, and I normally keep myself as far away as I can from any type of drama or, you know, too much personality.

I used to be a high school teacher, so I know there's a lot of high school mentality in politics, yet, you know, some of this stuff will will pour over into important avenues.

But I see it as any challenge, especially when you're working with people in the direction of a state or a party.

Any challenge always presents immense opportunity.

And so I see a lot of opportunity in this, especially I think one of the sources is that you have a lot of people who are political novices that are getting into the political game, and that's okay.

I think that especially after some of the COVID shutdowns and some of the government government overreach, we saw a lot of energy of people that don't have political backgrounds trying to get in to the political world to make some change.

So I think a lot of lessons have been learned.

But after campaigning, it it really brings about a lot of insecurity and some folks that get to leadership posts because campaigns are are pretty hard and you get a lot of attacks on you.

And so it really comes down to a person being able to have the strength and security to cast a wide net.

And that's something that I think the Michigan GOP definitely needs right now are uniters and people that are able to take some of the hits, but then also look forward to the future and make bridges and pave ways.

So that's there's a lot to it, though.

And certainly that is one of the things that detractors have said is that Karamo was unable to create unity, that these votes themselves show the lack of unity within the party.

To what extent, if any, does this signal a desire of Republicans in Michigan to move beyond the debate over whether the 2020 election was legitimate, which really was part of Crimea's rise within the party, and even getting Trump's endorsement in her initial and first political campaign.

Yeah, I was at the forefront of a lot of that.

I interact with a lot of people concerned about the 2020 election still, and that's where my conversation about that is.

I joined the Texas lawsuit.

I saw our S.O.S., her actions during COVID shutdowns and sending out absentee ballot applications, unsolicited, using COVID funds to do that.

I saw that as wrong on the Court of Appeals, and Michigan upheld that decision 2 to 1.

And so that's why it prompted me to go to the courts system to inquire of the U.S. Supreme Court to look into those actions.

And so they declined to hear the case.

And so here we are.

We're in the midst of this.

And, you know, the courts are going to uphold the law, and that is just our system.

And we need to accept that.

And that is something that's very important.

And so in terms of the bylaws now and the issues that Chairwoman Karamo was going through and the aspects of the group that match and whether it was legitimate or not, there apparently are going to be some lawsuits that need to be sorted out.

I heard the RNC is not going to weigh in.

And, you know, that's what it comes down to is we need to be able to be either the party of law and order and upholding rules.

And even if we don't like it, we put our head down and understand that we're all Americans were one wing of the of the eagle, as our founders put it.

And to fly properly, we need to ensure that there are larger founding first principles that unite us all as Americans.

And so getting our act together is key.

I think that any, like I mentioned, challenges, present opportunities.

So there are a lot of people in the wings watching.

And I think that, like I said, these opportunities need to be capitalized on by people who love our country and love our party and, you know, can bring about stability to it.

So I'm hopeful for the future.

And it has yet to be seen, though, because, you know, again, the focus is on a lot of the drama and that that's to be expected.

I get it.

And, you know, my counterparts on the other side of the aisle, they like seeing this.

They like to exasperated and point to it.

And that's where I think leadership has to really, you know, stand out here.

And so in terms of bridging the divide and if you have that much, I guess, disagreements within your, you know, county chairs, the action you should not do is block people out person that is, you know, secure is able to bring in their detractors, their dissenters.

That's why we look to great statesmen like Abraham Lincoln and, you know, George Washington.

These are individuals that were able to bring in their detractors and really talk about issues that mattered to to cast those wide nets and build bridges.

And that's what we need right now.

Representative Paquette, And hearing you talk, it reminds me of times that you've been here before, but also hearing you talk on the floor really about these issues of the Constitution and history and the importance of upholding institutions even when you don't like the results.

To what extent do you feel like other folks are responsive to this argument?

Well, I think that's one of the charges to me is, you know, I used to teach history and we brought actually a group of legislator senators from Michigan, senators and House reps to Mecosta, Michigan.

And that actually is where the Russell Kirk Center is.

And in the 1950s, he wrote a book called The Conservative Mind.

And when we think about the word conservative today, it's far removed from especially his framework.

And that's something that, you know, being a conservative isn't necessarily, I take a stand on this issue.

It's actually a rejection of ideologies.

It's more of a way of life understanding that we have this filter to view issues from and to be wary of too much radical change, but preserving the things that have worked in the past.

And then also understanding that every issue needs to be looked at with prudence.

And that's a virtue.

And so, you know, these challenges, I think, are the ones that beg the question, well, what is a conservative and returning to some of these first principles is definitely necessary, especially when there's a dearth of of competent leadership in the Conservative Party.

And a lot of folks, you know, throw that term out that you're not conservative enough or are you in and then no one goes any deeper.

And that's where I don't know if a lot of folks really understand what that term means.

And so we need to start by defining that term, I think, in our party and a lot of us are trying to do that right now and that's that's a good thing.

Now, you talked about the need for the party to really define itself, but also to try to bring in a broad range of people and bring them together.

What issues would you like to see Republicans in the state legislature focus on in this upcoming year?

Yeah, and big question there.

I think the couple of principles that they remain the same on a small level as they do on the large level, the largest level.

And so the local county party level, I've got two counties, Berrien and Cass County, and in our county parties we have our own split.

And so we have the old guard Republicans and we have kind of the new reform Republicans that have come in based on some issues.

And, you know, we've got to work there ourselves, like we can't give solutions to others if we ourselves in our local community are struggling.

We have to mitigate those problems ourselves before we can we can go the larger issues.

But in terms of my role, especially in Lansing at the state Capitol, one of the big aspects is is ethics reform in the state house.

And so Michigan, sadly, we've been making a lot of headlines, you know, very, very egregious actions, bribes being taken, infidelity and terrible aspects from our house speakers.

And those are things that we I've rejected and I've been, you know, doing a lot of that behind the scenes because obviously when the drama spills over, the media gets on board and tries to their credit, they need to they need to expose it, but it really derails a lot of issues.

And so when you have compromise, people that are exalted to leadership positions in politics, they're taken advantage of and that is not good for representative government.

And so when you send legislators out to Lansing, one of the first things that they like to do is they toss you into environments where you can make a lot of mistakes.

And so some reforms that are very, very bipartisan in nature, A lot of my Democratic colleagues agree on that served with me as well under the speaker that we both opposed for some of the reasons that, you know, he was involved in some some very, very nefarious actions, whether it be involving with dark money or, you know, trips and things that were undisclosed and acting like you're a celebrity when you're supposed to be a public servant.

So a return to ethical principles as well.

And then pointing out the fact that a lot of the individuals that reject that sort of, you know, compromising situation, they get put in a corner in Lansing because a lot of the folks in the powers that be like to exalt people who are compromised so they can bend them against their will of their constituents.

So ethics reform is a huge aspect here that we're we're working on.

And again, challenges present opportunities.

A lot of these bad headlines are embarrassing, but they should fuel our motivation to really bring about structural improvement that allows, you know, people to fall more than they should in the very gray areas of our law and state in the state of Michigan.

Now, briefly, you mentioned some issues that divide the old guard from the new folks.

Are they parallel to those that we see at the national level?

What kind of issues do you have in mind?

Yeah, I think so.

You know, and this is this is where every issue needs to be looked at on a case by case basis with prudence.

And so some especially the education divide that we have right now, it's an area where, you know, gender theory and a lot of the things that are being taught to kids, I've looked at a lot of these curriculums.

I chaired the education budget last term, the new ACL, in the way that we're looking at, you know, racial divides is a very, very divisive issue.

And so there's a a very energetic faction in the party that is focused on those issues.

And there are a lot of others that are kind of pointing to the fact that, hey, as you know, the Republicans, we need to be focused on these issues.

And so those should be, you know, concerned, are detailed at the local level.

We have local school boards and a lot of local control there that can focus on those issues.

So there's a divide on that.

And in the federal issue, federal matter, I know, especially after the COVID experience, it taught us a lot about state governments and federal governments and their role.

And so I think that on the on on both levels and even the local level, we all need to be asking the question, well, what is the role of this level of government?

And, you know, when the people that are meant to serve, there are are they deferring are they deferring to the federal government and are they making the decisions that they were elected for?

Because there are difficult decisions that need to be made on all these levels.

So I think that that rings true is that we're all, I think, inquiring now and getting a really good civics lesson of, well, what is the role of government, especially this layer of government?

What should the state be doing and what should we be leaving to the counties and what is the proper role of the federal government?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Now, as you mentioned, that race can be a divisive issue, whether in the classroom or in society.

More broadly.

Some of Christina Kramer's supporters have said that part of the reason that she was ousted was that it is a lot of white people making this decision.

From your observation, did you see racial dynamics much at play here, or do you think it was other kinds of issues?

I've been far away from a lot of the drama.

I've talked to her once on the phone and I said pretty much what I said here is you need to cast a wide net.

You know, put put ego aside and, you know, build those bridges.

And so what I've seen is, you know, kind of a sectioning off of power.

And then if you're not able to tell your story, well, other people are going to tell it for you.

So that's kind of just what I viewed the county party or I mean, the state party hasn't really been involved much, especially with my role.

And the question, I guess, begs is that, well, what is the role of the state party?

And so some say that it should be to raise money, and that hasn't been happening.

So that's why, you know, that's the merit that she's not being able to stand to the standard that she's not saying to.

And then others say, well, you know, it should be more of a philosophy, philosophical framework to ensure that candidates are adhering to to certain party platforms.

And so I'd say it needs to be a balance in between.

And a lot of people on both sides, you know, are going to say, nope, you are not living up to the standard.

But my question is, well, what is the role of the state party?

And then what?

What is it moving forward that we need to uphold as a standard for the state party?

And again, when you have a lot of people that they don't have much background in this political process, they're going to make mistakes.

And one piece that I often point to is that if you have any elected official, especially living through these tumultuous times, that doesn't admit to mistakes that they've made.

And that's a big concern.

And so a strong leader is able to admit where they've gone wrong, and especially in the crazy times that we're living in there are a lot of mistakes that have been made by leaders and not many choose to apologize.

So that's that's another issues with race.

I don't I don't see that being a part of it.

I but again, there are always people that have terrible ideas and then kind of the spotlight goes on them or they say terrible things and then everybody gets branded as them as well.

And, you know, me being a teacher, you know, one bad teacher kind of gets the highlight and then everyone attacks education.

And that's that's also wrong.

So, you know, casting that wide net, like I said, I think Karamo, as a leader, hasn't done a strong enough job of telling her own story and also confronting issues.

It's a lot easier to go on to social media and just kind of throw bombs at other people, especially people that, you know, you know, you beat in the election.

I don't think that's a worthy use of time and it conveys some insecurity.

So addressing issues and communicating about them clearly is what we need to see from her.

And we haven't been.

There's certainly a lot of concern about money, which you mentioned.

And, you know, is it a mistake or not to focus on small donors versus wealthy donors?

If you promise to bring in, you know, six and a half million and only bring in 186,000, a lot of people are going to say maybe that was a mistake.

But you also have the ethics issues and campaign finance that you got.

So I'm sure there'll be a lot more attention to that.

Looking toward the future, one of the things that a lot of people, of course, are thinking about as they look at Michigan is what will happen in 2024 and whether or not Republicans will be able to reclaim the state house after a challenging time, of course, in 2022, giving the Democrats unified government in terms of a majority in the House, the Senate, and also with the governor being a Democrat.

How do you see that playing out in the future?

And does this sort of internal do these internal divisions interfere with the party's ability to really recapture a majority in the state house?

I think that, you know, so the state party hasn't done a whole lot in terms of winning the elections in the state House, for my understanding.

And I've been in this role now for about five years, it really comes down to kind of the House Republican Campaign Committee and a lot of the work there where we're out knocking doors for our candidates and things like that.

But I think that, you know, in the thousands of people that I've been able to talk to in this job, which is my favorite part of the job, especially know folks in the left and the right, everywhere in between is I've never met a person that just subscribes entirely to one party.

Most of them say, well, you know, this is the least worst choice.

And I you know, I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat.

And so when you look into the whole party platform, I've I've never met one person saying, I subscribe entirely to this.

So I think that that is where the issues are going to come to the forefront in 2024.

I think that a lot of people, again, are getting engaged at the highest level ever in politics.

Theodore Roosevelt described back in his day the duties of an American citizen are not necessarily just to vote.

That's one of the least duties.

It's to be engaged in politics on all levels.

And I think we're seeing that because people are realizing the impact of decisions that a lot of us in elected office have been making that I think need more scrutiny.

I got a lot of good friends that are in businesses and things like that.

And, you know, they ridicule people in politics as they should, because we have two buttons on our desk and we like to dabble in a lot of people's lives that we don't know exactly how it's going to impact them, but we only have those two buttons so we can push a yes or no on these bills are often crafted by stakeholders that hire lobbyists that they impact to help their own business.

And so it has a lot of repercussions.

So a lot of folks are really getting engaged.

And so that's going to be a defining issue.

You look at back in the thirties and I love Reader's Digest from the old olden days, I've got a lot of old copies of them.

And the times that Americans were most plugged in were in the economic uncertainties.

And when war was being, you know, either they're World Wars or there were rumors of wars.

And obviously we have a lot of that going on now.

So a lot of Americans are realizing they've got to get in the game here and they've got to get a more astute NACI on issues.

So I think that's going to be the defining, I guess, push for one way or another here in the parties.

And the parties need to shape up and they need to be very, very close to the pulse of public opinion.

Well, you talked about people focusing on issues rather than simply relying on a party label and the need to speak directly to those voters and find out what matters to them and address those issues.

This seems like something that will be critical as you think about the US Senate seat, which I know Republicans hope that perhaps they can pick up the US Senate seat that Debbie Stabenow has held since 2001, but also the being a swing state for the presidential election and who the next president will be in Michigan can become critical, but especially those swing voters who are doing what you talked about, not just relying on a party label, but really listening for which candidates talk about the issues that matter to them.

How do you think the state party can be helpful?

What can local folks be doing?

What advice would you give even to presidential candidates in terms of actually reaching Michigan voters in the ways that you've described?

Yeah, Well, my advice well, obviously, I keep my head down.

I focus on where I'm at.

And so a lot of those larger races that some of the candidates have reached out to me and, you know, have asked my my thoughts.

And I my my goal is to try to talk to as many people that are willing to give me, you know, thoughts on my my stances, how to sharpen my stances.

I'm confident in where I've taken stances.

And so I want to make sure that I'm practicing conversation as much as possible, especially with people who think different than I.

But I'm in a House seat that has 90,000 some constituents, and I'm able to do that.

I'm able to knock on almost every door in a Republican primary.

And so, you know, that's something that I think unique to the state House that doesn't once you get larger and, you know, our founders, when we looked at, you know, even a congressional seat, there were only some 40,000 constituents.

Now it's about 800,001 congressional seat.

So I wondered how how do these folks even really adequately represent their constituency?

I don't think they can.

And so that's why, in my estimation, anyone that I support is to return to first principles and return to the way our founding was, and that is to push a lot of the power that's centralized in the federal government back to the states.

The 10th Amendment describes that, you know, the federal government is really delineated.

Specifically, here is what their role is, and everything else should be left to the states.

And we have this, you know, change over the last hundred some years since the Civil War, the world wars of, you know, centralized, aging and growing federal government.

And when their budgets don't have to be balanced and they can, you know, mess with the money supply that has caused a very large overreach on the states that I'm encouraging any candidate that I talked to the point that opinion out, because the states and especially the state houses, which is where I have the deepest reverence for my job of being able to serve in the institutions, highest honor of my life is where we're able to be closest to public opinion in closest to our constituents, and should have the biggest impact on how they want to see their state go in the direction of their state.

So that's the advice I've been talking about.

Also, you know, don't be don't be fearful, but talk about even the hardest of issues and don't be afraid to admit where you went wrong or maybe you were misguided or misled for a time.

Embrace that.

One thing about Donald Trump that I've noticed over his time and originally in the beginning when he was running, is that a lot of Americans had a lot of grace, that they just wanted to know who you were behind closed doors as you were speaking on the mike and Trump, to be honest, you know, he he was that you knew what you were getting.

And they want folks that don't wait for polling to say how they feel, but they also want people who can apologize and to say, hey, you know, I messed up there.

And that's been Donald Trump's downfall, in my estimation, is you've got to be able to admit where you weren't right the whole time and you've got to cast a wide net and bring in your detractors to really allow the American people to see where you stand if it holds up against scrutiny.

And so that's kind of my messaging that I've been sharing with others.

But it's only come I can only focus on myself and how I, I guess, go about my role, which is to serve in the Michigan House for a time.

As you're serving in the Michigan House, you have a lot of people trying to influence your votes.

And some of those folks are part of organized groups.

Some may be actual registered lobbyists, others are ordinary constituents.

How do you make sure that you're hearing all of those voices?

Yeah.

And when you so we had pretty strict term limits in the house were six years in the Michigan house you could Mack serves you a lot of people would get into the job and they would have to rely on that type of institutional knowledge which was dominated by the lobby, where you could talk about any issue and you speak to these very, very professional speakers who know you, they learn you.

You know, that's their job.

They're lobbyists.

They laugh at your jokes.

You know, low smoke up your pant leg, and then they give you drinks and try to buy your steaks.

And then they're, you know, their side sounds really, really good.

I and a lot of folks, I think, get captured up in that when they first get elected.

And it's easy to then say, yeah, my constituents are are fine with me voting for this and they're given talking points and then they speak them.

And that's something that I've I've done my best to rail against in myself and then with my colleagues.

That's what begs the the ethics reform is I don't think a lobbyist should be able to buy us anything or give us a campaign contribution, because I've seen individuals, sadly vote because they feel one way or another about the lobbyists, not necessarily the issue or about how they have supporters that give them campaign contributions in Lansing.

And so they're going to ask their opinion first before they use their own mind and what their constituents gave them, which is that office that platform.

And that's something that, you know, that I think that's always existed.

But how do you curb it or make it better, as is my approach in the way that Michigan law is set up right now is designed to oppose constituent voice and people to think freely about issues with the boldness that they were elected to bring in their campaign slogans and their mailers say.

And that's something that I've yeah, has been it's been discouraging.

But again, every challenge presents a good opportunity.

And in speaking about this with colleagues in as many people as possible has been has been invigorating, to say the least.

All right.

Well, we certainly appreciate you being on today to talk directly to your constituents and others in our region about your thoughts regarding the political party, but also the proper role of government and ethics reform in the Michigan state legislature.

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for this week's politically speaking.

I want to thank our guests to Michigan State Representative Brad Paquette.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work.

This WNIT Local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.