Welcome to Politically Speaking.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion, chancellor's professor of political science and director of Community Engagement at Indiana University South Bend.

In March of 2022, Chris Lowry took over as commissioner for the Indiana Commission for Higher Education.

In his role, Commissioner Lowery has focused on increasing college readiness and affordability and addressing a noticeable decline in the percentage of Hoosiers attending college.

Joining us today is Commissioner Chris Lowry.

Thanks for joining us, Elizabeth.

Thank you.

I'm delighted to be here.

Now, I want to start by asking you what led to this position.

How do you find yourself as commissioner of higher education?

You know, my 89 year old mother is probably asking that I've had a circuitous route in my professional side of my life.

I had been serving for six years as senior vice president of workforce and Careers at Ivy Tech Community College.

Prior to that, I had come from private industry working for a publicly traded Hillenbrand here in Indiana.

All of those things, one led to the other.

HILLENBRAND My involvement with Ivy Tech and trying to do some innovative work led eventually to being recruited by Ivy Tech and then subsequently being recruited by the Commission for Higher Education.

Now, going on about two years ago when my predecessor announced that she was going to be stepping down and moving into something different after about 13 years in that role.

So, yeah, and I have to admit, when I was first told about this and asked whether I might be interested, I thought, gosh, you know, many years ago I never would have envisioned myself doing this type of work.

But I also feel very strongly about some things that we really need to be focused on, like the college going rate and.

Well, there you have it.

Eventually said, yeah, let's talk.

Well, let's talk about the college going rate.

What are we seeing in terms of that decline?

And also, why is it important?

Why should viewers care?

Thank you so much.

This is probably the point about which I've been talking the most.

And in the last year and a half while serving in this role, you know, shortly after arriving to the position a year ago this spring, we were getting ready to produce one of our annual reports.

It's called the College Readiness Report, and it's the going rate of youth matriculating from high school to some form of training or education beyond high school.

And as I looked at the report and the data that were in it, I started asking myself and then my colleagues why are we not talking about this?

The report showed, you know, some of your viewers may know this, that there had been a 12 point decline from 65 to 53% of our youth going from high school to some post-secondary training or education.

And then I looked even deeper into it.

And that decline had been going on for ten years from 68 to 53.

And, you know, the reality is we can't function well as a civil society without that.

And I think that probably sounds lofty to some folks, but it's not.

You know, we need a skilled, competent workforce of individuals who can meet the needs of employers, of our communities, but also have a fulfilling life themselves.

And, you know, we started really as we thought about this issue and the challenges that come with it.

We started saying, so how can we address that?

And I'm sure we'll get it, you know, to those those ideas and conversations.

But one of the a couple of the factors that we really started to focus on were the economic and social outcomes of, you know, greater educational attainment.

And very specifically, we started focusing on the differences between having no high school diploma, having a high school diploma, an associate's degree or some college and a bachelor's and higher.

And what is that like in terms of the difference for the individual?

And then also what that means for society at large?

Great question.

So for the individual, the primary factors we started looking at were things like unemployment.

So the unemployment rate is much lower consistently for an individual with the more education she or he is able to earn.

It's consistent, it's regular, and you see it in every set of data.

Similarly to the rate of labor participation.

So actually being in the workforce and participating is higher as those levels of educational attainment increase.

Similarly, not surprisingly, wages are significantly different.

I think in Indiana the wage difference is 84% on with at the median between a high school diploma and someone with a bachelor's and higher.

That's life changing.

Certainly, you know, accumulation of wealth and things like that.

But on the other side of this whole equation are the social impact factors.

Life expectancy is dramatically different.

Someone on average with less than a high school diploma versus a bachelor's degree and higher, the individual with a with less than a high school diploma is expected to live 13 years less.

Is that different erased if we take into account socioeconomic status somebody's the income of their parents?

And would that be a driving factor or even controlling for that?

Do we still see those differences?

And I love that question.

Yeah, we still see those differences.

You know, the that I'm a firm believer in the data.

Again, show us this that education and training.

You know I think of it as high school diploma plus whatever that looks like a bachelor's degree industry certification.

It leads to just absolutely substantially better economic and social outcomes when doing all those controls.

Right.

And it's the great provider of opportunity, of possibility of of, you know, a leg up, if you will.

So when people say, well, I just don't think I can afford to go to college or go into that technical program I have my eye on, but I just don't think I can afford it because I need to work.

It sounds like your answer is perhaps you can't afford not to.

Yeah, I thank you.

I think you can't afford not to.

You know something beyond the high school diploma, you know, research, nationwide research, whether we look at the Pew, Pew Research, Gallup, New America.

Right.

So many of them come back to three factors that really influence and guide individuals.

The belief that they can't afford it, the career relevance and quality.

Well, I've been making the case to anyone who will listen that in Indiana we are really fortunate because we have institutions, a variety of public and private institutions that offer very quality, very high quality programs geared toward what our economic sectors need.

So from a career standpoint.

And then on affordability, there are a couple of things that we have looked at that clearly indicate, you can get a good deal in Indiana.

So a couple of those, again, about which we don't talk nearly often enough.

I've come to say we're going to ditch the Hoosier humility.

We should talk about these things.

We should brag.

So our fellow Hoosiers know, you know, Indiana is number one in the Midwest and fifth in the nation in need based financial aid.

So when we look at individuals who are struggling the most to afford college and may not even look at it because they think they can't because of affordability, we are best in the Midwest.

Fifth in the nation.

Yeah.

Now, your viewers know that and not enough Hoosiers know that.

And I'm sure we'll talk about it.

But we've also, you know, been realizing support from the legislature and the governor and others, folks in business to even increase those levels of need based financial aid.

Couple that with this, our state based institutions, so our public universities and colleges in the last ten years have really tried to hold the line on tuition and fee increases.

Purdue University has rightfully received a lot of notoriety for what they've done in the last ten years, while the other public institutions have been pulling their weight, too.

When we look at the last ten years, Indiana's public institutions are sixth out of 50 states in holding the line.

And when we adjust for inflation, even before this, you know, growth that we've really experienced in the last year, even calculated before that, adjusted for inflation, tuition and fees are actually down at our public institutions from what they were ten years ago.

That's the kind of message we have to have, or also that the individual who graduate with a bachelor's degree in Indiana, that if they have if they have debt, it's around $30,000.

I'd prefer they didn't have any.

Let me be clear.

And we need to push and make sure institutions are remaining affordable, that we have aid for those who need it.

But the fact of the matter is those on average with a bachelor's and a bachelor's degree who do have debt, it's around $30,000.

That's the price of a new small compact vehicle.

I think I know which one is the long term investment there.

So we've got to keep the pressure on affordability, but we've got to let Hoosiers know that there are a lot of great options for them from the affordability standpoint.

Some that that 30,000 will come back in the higher income that you talked about, but also that point that you made about adjusting for inflation, Those public universities are actually have not seen what we hear so much about this escalation, this exponential increase in fees and tuition for college, that so much of the national narrative, I think many people here in Indiana believe that's the case.

And then it will be out of reach for them.

Yeah, that is the narrative we hear.

It's you know, it's on the national stage, you know, whether that is or national publications or TV and, you know, other sources of of information.

In fact, a a national author writer from a known national publication and got a hold of me last fall because he had heard well, we were making a lot of noise about the college going rate and you want to talk it.

So I said, Sure.

And quickly into the conversation, he said, So why why do you think people are questioning the value?

You know, why do you think?

And I kind of laughed.

He said, What?

And I said, You do read your own paper, don't you?

I said, I subscribe to yours and the other leading national newspaper for decades.

And the reality is the stories you cast on the front page, give me some liberty here.

I said, What you cast is someone has a quarter million dollars in debt.

That's what you expect that you had that that is somebody with some weird graduate degree from USC.

So let's pick on California and you know, they can't find a part time job.

I said that's just not the reality in Indiana, $30,000 or less for debt.

You know, the wage premium is 84% in Indiana, high school diploma versus bachelor's degree.

You know, all of these different factors.

And, you know, and I went on to explain, you know, our need based financial aid and so forth.

But I said, but too many of you're setting that narrative.

And while some of those outliers occur, I wouldn't deny that to anyone.

The fact of the matter is Indiana has a good deal.

You know, the one of the clear data says that does make sense.

The value is there.

That's right, Elizabeth.

And, you know, we found one of the several data points, but this other that I just thought was fascinating, and that is what I consider how the market looks at public and private institutions in Indiana.

This surprises Hoosiers when I tell them.

But our public and private institutions in Indiana, higher ed institution are ninth best in the nation at attracting students from out of state.

I believe in the markets.

I think the market speaks and says we have a good value here, quality and a good price.

You know, all of those things equate to value.

Now, I will also tell you that we have a challenge of keeping this fragile.

Right?

And by by golly, I intend for all of those graduates for as many as possible to stay here, you know, or if they do go away to Chicago or New York or San Francisco or something.

I just wanted to come back.

Right.

That so-called brain drain.

Yes.

South Bend, our chancellor likes to talk about the brain remain of keeping people stable in our area.

As a definitely something that the state legislature is also looking at in terms of incentivizing keeping people here.

Let's talk about that in just one second because I want to go back to something else you said, which was that you were trying to do that the state is trying to do even more to make college affordable for folks who come from some disadvantage, perhaps parents who don't earn very much money and they're looking at going to school.

There is a change to the 21st Century Scholars program that happened recently.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, because that seems very importan You know, I've been around public policy off and on for 40 years now, and I'm hard pressed to find a piece of legislation that has been more meaningful than the move from having to find these children in seventh and eighth grade and sign them up to what is now an automatic enrollment of 21st century eligible students.

And, you know, the background on that is that when we started looking at the college going rate, you know, down to 53%.

Right.

In our most recent data.

When you peel that back, we found something really startling for low income kids who are 21st century scholars.

The college going rate was 81% for low income kids who didn't get the chance to sign up.

It's 30%, no fault or knowledge of their own through no fault or knowledge of their own.

Oftentimes no fault or knowledge of the folks around them, their adults around them, parents and others.

Yeah, I think, you know, I found it, frankly, hard to sleep just knowing that.

And so a number of folks, you know, individuals in the legislature, in business, nonprofits, etc., we began talking about this about a year ago.

And and the question I posed to our team was, we know who these kids are, right?

And they said, yeah, essentially, you know, if a child qualifies for free and reduced lunch, we're pretty sure that, you know, they would qualify as 21st century scholars.

So why like, why wouldn't we just sign these kids up and just automatically enroll them?

And of course, in the end, it to be I don't want to be cavalier, glib about this.

You know, part of the response was, well, hey, you know, there's a fiscal impact that will require more expenditure from the state, find those kids, get them signed up, and then they'll go to college.

And, you know, quite frankly, my comment was we always have to be responsible and look at that.

But way we better do is look at the the return on investment, what are the economic outcomes And those things we just already really talked about.

Elizabeth, it's it's stunning the positive, the upside from this kind of investment very conservatively.

Our business intelligence team came back.

They were giddy, by the way, and said, Chris, just the difference in wages that we expect a student to learn because she or he had a chance to go and did go between the high school diploma and likely a bachelor's degree.

It's ten x just the wage difference from the original investment.

And then, of course, my next question was what's the impact to tax receipts?

And they only looked in again very conservatively at local and state tax, didn't take federal into consideration or anything.

And the original investment is more than paid for, as you would guess, by the increase in tax receipts, you know, for that student.

And that doesn't even begin to get into, you know, individuals having better access to health care, better health outcomes and all of those other things that I think intuitively we know.

But but the point is we put numbers to it and said, look, they're conservative numbers.

You know, call us out if there's something wrong in our formulas, in our estimates.

But as was evidenced, gosh, you know, people just really came out to support.

It was, I think, also very encouraging.

There was broad bipartisan support in the Indiana House and the Indiana Senate because I think, folks, salt first of all, this the right thing, great economic return, good for the student, good for employers.

You know, it strengthens a community and a state.

And and truly, I'll circle back to it of all my years, this is the piece of legislation that I think I look to and say, if that doesn't provide hope for folks, I don't know what does the win, win, win?

The people who think it's just good to have that knowledge with the people who want to see the return on investment economically for the state, the folks who want to see better health outcomes, lower incarceration rates, lower infant mortality rates, all of it that no matter who you were talking to, you could say, yes, this will help to deal with the issue you care about.

Yes, this has positive impact all around.

That's right.

Now, in terms of the folks who are signed up for a 21st century scholar, are they equally likely to be retained and to graduate as their peers?

You know, yes.

And a couple of different things.

We we as a as an agency and then a lot of other partner organizations for years geared our resources toward just finding these kids and signing them up.

And so as an example, at our agency, we have a group of individuals who work with community organizations, with middle and high schools, and a lot of that work had been focused on, you know, getting the students signed up.

We're shifting the focus, reallocating our resources to say, hey, how can we help these kids be successful?

And so we're doing that, first of all.

But, you know, to the heart of your question, the data tell us, first of all, 21st century scholars do go at a much higher rate than their low income peers who wouldn't have otherwise been signed up.

And they have a higher completion rate.

You know, just statistic after statistic that, you know, says to us, look, this is good from the start, you know, getting them going, getting them to, you know, persist and complete.

And obviously, you know, on the economics side of it with good and better jobs.

I want to talk a little bit about that issue of keeping students in Indiana.

Is there any incentive from the legislature to do that?

And has anything else changed about the way that institutions will be funded?

I love this question.

You know, our team began really digging into last summer and fall, you know, based on a situation assessment where we thought the big challenges would be for Indiana, for individuals and for employers and communities with regard to training and education beyond high school, three primary things stood out to us.

Certainly the college going rate been in decline.

What do we do to, you know, staunch that and change the trajectory of the slope of that curve?

The second one was completion rates.

We really need to keep focus on helping students complete by the way, Indiana is now 13th in the nation.

From a completion standpoint, that's good.

I want it to be at least top ten.

But then the other thing we identified is that when we go back to that, that number that I mentioned, we're ninth best at attracting students to come to our institutions.

Unfortunately, on the other side of that coin, we're 42nd at retaining them.

And I think what was, you know, kind of sort of fun for me as I began talking about this information that our team pulled together, people were really surprised, Oh, my goodness, you're kidding.

And, you know, my response was, look, we don't have ocean beaches.

You know, we don't have mountains.

I've lived here all but one year of my life.

I love Indiana.

I can't imagine living anywhere else.

But if we can attract students here, what can we do to keep them?

And so we began talking with leaders of our publicans to tuition's, you know, Ivy Tech, Vincennes IU, Purdue University, Southern Indiana, Indiana State and Ball State University got all seven of them there.

And saying, What are you doing to help keep this talent?

What more could we do?

And together we went to the legislature because it was a budget year and said, We've got some big proposals to change what is called the outcomes based performance funding formula.

What that is, is simply the accountability and incentives structure for those seven institutions saying, we want to keep an eye on this and hold you accountable, but also then incentivize you to perform better in that regard.

And so now each one of those seven institutions has, as part of a plan what they're doing, and they're incentivized on it to help retain graduates.

You know, one of the institutions has been working to deploy their in-state alumni to be mentors and coaches and conduits to internships and job offers.

The last I was last I checked, they had 4000 volunteering to do this work.

That's remarkable.

You know, so taking those kind of ideas, I know that at Purdue and IU as an example, when they presented their budgets last fall and as we got into the legislative session, they had embedded by that time the idea to focus on graduate retention within our state in their strategic plans.

You know, that's that is meaningful long term strategic thinking.

And and they've got that in there now.

And of course, all of them will be held accountable.

But also the an incentive for for good work to get that job done, graduation, completion rates, retention rates and retention in the state after graduation are having part of that performance funding.

Yeah.

In the last couple of minutes we have I want to talk a little bit more about career in technical education.

Sometimes people seem to debate is a four year degree better or a more technical degree?

I think I've heard you say both end yes, but both and right.

Our economy requires of us to not create some false dichotomy and and to recognize that we need all of these we need all these skills, all of these capabilities, you know, whether it's operating a manufacturing plant that exists in Saint Joseph County or whether it's a a hydrogen facility or an EV facility that's going to exist somewhere here in the state of Indiana.

You know, we we need folks with bachelor's degrees and master's degrees and industry certifications and technical certificates to do different work in those roles.

We are not you know, we're not experiencing a situation where we have so much talent, we're turning them away.

You know, employers, employers tell me almost daily about their needs.

And and that, to a great degree is focusing on what we already have in our state.

And as we attempt to grow our state even more, you know, organically, but also inquisitively.

So, you know, bringing in employers and I know there's a lot of talk in this area about about some of we have to be able to show that we have the human capital to get that job done.

I you know, I've been saying frequently in the last year, financial capital will follow human capital.

That's just a fact.

And whether that is for a technician or whether that is for an engineer or whether that is for teachers.

Right.

So, yeah, it's it's an all of the above.

And and frankly, too, I think when we inadvertently create this false narrative, you know, it pits one group against the other and you know, I'd much rather see one plus one equals like two and a half.

Absolutely.

And just quickly, the state is taking steps, it sounds like, to increase all of the above in terms of its options.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, one step that was taken during this most recent General Assembly, they had during the legislative session was to move the career technical education side of state government.

CTE is oftentimes people know it to the commission.

It had been in a variety of agencies over the years, partly because of my industry background and then my life with Ivy Tech for going on a decade there.

I've had pretty strong feelings about one, the importance of it, the need to always crisply align with what the economic sector needs, you know, with what employers need to be really, you know, tight in alignment with our higher ed institutions so that as a student, you know, take CTE courses in high school.

Hopefully she or he is earning dual credit.

That then transfers into whether it's Ivy Tech or another institution and that the individual is hopefully earning a a recognized by the marketplace credential, also having work and learning experiences because those oftentimes lead to jobs.

I would say it's sort of a test drive of between the employer and the individual kind of test driving going, you know, do we think we might want to work together some day?

And so anyway, that's at the commission now.

A lot came in with that and that really is going to allow more focus on that.

But also as part of that comprehensive package, it is it has to be comprehensive for it for individuals in our state and our employers and our communities.

Well, unfortunately, we're out of time.

I feel like we could go on for many hours more, but we are out of time for this episode of Politically Speaking.

And I want to thank our guest, Commissioner Lowery of the Indiana Commission for Higher Education and Elizabeth Bennion reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work.

We'll see you next time.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.