Welcome to politically speaking.

I'm Elizabeth Benson, professor of political science and founding director of IU South Bend American Democracy Project.

In late July, Dante Kittrell was killed by South Bend police officers during a mental health crisis.

Pastors and family members believe the police prevented them from de-escalating the situation.

This isn't the first incident in Indiana.

Herman Whitfield, the third, died in Indianapolis police custody during a mental health crisis in April.

The Indianapolis chapter of Faith in Indiana helped push a pilot clinician led emergency response program in September following the death.

Joining us to discuss South Bend's plans and resources for mental health emergencies is South Bend Fire Chief Carl Buchanan and representing faith in Indiana is Pastor Carl Hetler of Broadway Christian Parish.

Welcome and thank you both for being here.

Thank you for having us.

Now, Chief Buchanan, you've had over 30 years of experience in public safety.

What are options for somebody who is struggling with a mental health emergency?

Well, first of all, you know, mental health in not only this country, but this community has been been present throughout before I became the fire chief and even during my early years in the fire service, we noted that there was some mental health issues that we were being responded to.

And in in all theory, you know, the fire department gets called for every every emergency that's out there and some we are qualified and trained to assist with and then others we are.

And that's when we have to enlist on the correct authorities to assist.

And so what when all of this first came about, what wasn't being told?

What was that?

There was some measures being taken in regards to establishing a mobile crisis intervention team and in including some qualified clinicians to be in the forefront of that.

So that and it all it stems back to making sure that whoever calls for assistance whether it be that individual or second or third party or even the fourth party whatever that whoever calls for assistance making sure that they get the the right response and responders to respond to their particular incident and whatever their problem is.

And that's where it all starts.

So if you have a situation that involves fire, EMS, then the fire department should be called first.

If you have a situation that requires law enforcement for whatever reason, then law enforcement should be called but where we all agree on is that when we're dealing with mental health and individuals with mental health the moment with a mental health emergency or mental health illness.

We have to recognize that it's not a necessarily a fire or a medical, but it is medical and the same way, it's just not a medical to where our emergency medical paramedics and advanced EMT would respond to, because we don't evaluate anyone's psychological or psychiatric capabilities.

We deal if you have a problem breathing, if you have a problem bleeding, or if you have a broken bone, or if you have heart attack, cardiac arrest, stroke.

Those things are in our wheelhouse.

And those things we are capable of taking care of when we have someone that is mentally experiencing some type of situation that they just need help with, then that's when we need the assistance of a qualified, trained clinician, psychologists, psychiatrists, someone of that capacity that do it on a daily basis, that understands what folks are going through when they are experiencing this.

We need them at the table so that they we need to know what do they expect from us?

Because we are not capable of fulfilling this person's need.

We want to help.

I mean, this is our whole premise for being in in the fire service and being in public safety.

We will go out if you call us, we will come and we will do our very best.

But to put us in a situation where we can't have success because we're not qualified or trained to do so, is not right, is not fulfilling to the individual that's needing the help.

And it's not fair to our personnel to go out there and try to provide.

Beyond their training, which is very detailed but not meant to substitute and behave as a we.

Train extensively for everything that's within the fire and EMS scope.

We we train vigorously.

We have we have become a class one rated city and fire department because of what we provide to our citizens out here in this community.

And we're proud of that.

And we we we we we understand that everyone is frustrated because, honestly, mental health is not just the individual's that's walking around in the street.

They're the individuals that's working with you.

They're your family members.

It's everywhere.

So we all want to do our part and we want to be conscientious and we want to be respectful that, you know what?

We want to make sure everyone gets the help that they need, but we can only provide so much help.

That's why we all need to community, why we all need to to make an effort to come together and figure out what we all can do because it's not up to one particular group or department to do.

It is for all of us to have and have a seat on.

Passacaglia So you're nodding your head.

Can you talk a little bit about how you got involved in faith in Indiana and how that brought you into this conversation about what to do in cases of mental health crisis?

Our congregation is one of 25 in the South Bend area of different religious beliefs who want to work together for the common good.

And last summer at Potawatomi Park, we held a large gathering with many public officials to say that we wanted to see some of the federal funds that were coming from AARP and COVID to use to address the mental health crisis in our community.

This pandemic has been hard on everyone, and we see the results of that in lots of different ways that people are struggling.

And this whole calendar year now we've had a team staffed out of Oaklawn, a mobile crisis unit that is able to help care for people who are in need.

And just this week, 911 is now tied in to that mobile crisis unit.

So when that call comes in, if it's a fire need nine one, one knows to call them.

If there's a concern about lethal force, they call the police.

And if the mental health crisis, someone who is suicidal, someone who needs assistance and maybe needs medication, they call they are directed from 911 directly to Oaklawn's mental health crisis team to help those people who are trained to have that specialty so they can come out and address the situation.

Now, in that case, the team from Oakland, you mentioned that the 911 would be routed to them.

Would police and fire also be there or how does that work?

That's a911 decision that they make about if the scene is safe, if they can send out people who are licensed counselors and therapists, they make that evaluation and that determination.

We hope soon that the nine, eight, eight new number for suicide that's going national that soon that will be tied in also that so that's not there yet but we hope that that comes through and then they also get direct calls also to Oaklawn's main number can also be a way for people to receive some help and they are getting currently 80 to 60 to 80 calls a week that are coming in every week of people in our community who are having a mental health crisis.

And so just as someone might call for if there's a fire in their house, they might call it or someone the weapon people now have this resource where they can call in faith in Indiana believes that we all deserve to have safe and caring communities.

This has been a missing piece that we don't want.

Expect the fire or the police to have to deal with because they have a different focus, a different specialty.

There's limits, as the chief has said to their responses they can do.

And so we've been advocating for years that we need to have this mental health focus so that people get the care and support that they need because we all deserve to live in safe and caring communities.

Now, one in twenty, the adults experience serious mental illness each year.

What is faith in Indiana propose as a solution more broadly to the mental health crisis?

What kind of solutions would you like to see?

Right.

It's not just the fact that there's a large percentage of people of us who deal with mental health crisis.

But the fact that there are so many, especially in the state of Indiana, who are uninsured and because of that cost, prohibit for habitation, they're not able to get the care they receive.

Statistically, half of the people in this country with a mental illness don't receive don't receive treatment.

And we see those numbers happening across our state.

Also, Indiana ranks fairly low in a recent report done by the Mental Health of America Association with the Care that we need.

And so there is a need that we have, and this pandemic has only made it worse.

And so we think that this is one effort that we can make to be able to address the mental health crisis.

There's other crises we see also with drug addiction, for example.

We need to have targeted services there.

And we're really appreciative of the supportive work that our sheriff, Bill Redman, has done with his county sheriff's department to think about jail diversion, to think about how we get people into treatment, if that's what they need.

And so we continue to expand more partnerships with those who are willing to work to get people to help that they need.

Now, Chief, as we think about this crisis response team, how do you think about the partnership between a team like that and the teams that you might have out in the field?

If you get a call and your people are on the scene and it turns out that there is a mental health crisis, are they able to also call Oaklawn directly or does it just depend on how quickly the situation may be evolving?

Again, Elizabeth, it goes back to the initial call.

So we are counting on the dispatching center, the call takers, to actually get the information from whoever is making that call, to make that determination of who all needs to be involved.

That's where it all starts.

It has to start right there at the call.

No different than if someone just passed a call, said that someone had if their house was on fire, if they seen a house on fire or somewhere near them, they know immediately to call 911 and say, Hey, there's a house on fire.

It's my house on fire, but there's a house on fire and we need the fire department.

There's no doubt that they're going to hit our buttons and send the responsible crew members to respond to that call.

So we want that same we want that same premise when we're dealing with the mental health.

If there's a mental health issue, even if it's slightly even if it's not sure, if they're not sure, but they can ask the questions to call, take it in, ask to prescribe questions to determine, well, where do we go from here?

So it's not like they're just getting a call and they're saying nobody's speaking another line.

We don't know who to send.

So let's just send somebody know they are professionals to where they have a script so they understand the questions that they need to ask to get the required responders to to assist.

So and that's all we want to do.

We want to make sure that whoever's taking those calls is asking the right questions in order to better provide them with the care that they need faster and more prompt than just, okay, listen, someone else for now, let's just end PD for now, let's just an ambulance team for now and then they can make that evaluation.

I think we got to get through guessing and be more precise and understand what we need to do.

Because if you get the ball rolling straight, the ball will stay straight.

If you just throw a ball, it could go anywhere.

And we want to roll that ball straight and we want to make sure that we are having everybody that that needs to be in that conversation.

On that conversation, if I need possibly need a mental health clinician then I am calling that mental health clinician.

I'm calling Oaklawn just as Pastor Carl said, Oakland with this mobile crisis intervention team, they are a response team.

Rather, they are ready in and and has been having communication with all of us in the county for a while now.

And again, we'd like to have that be not just 9 to 5, eight, two, four, seven and three.

We want that 24 hours a day.

And that's what Pastor Carl was was signifying, I believe, when he was saying, even with the American response monies, making sure, trying to see if, you know, we can kind of coordinate some of that into providing this on a 24 hour basis.

One thing I agree with as well, and I apologize, so kind of going from one to the other.

But one thing I agree with as well is that we we are not and I've been in many conversations, we are not wanting to detention these individuals or send them to whether it be Memorial or Saint Joe Mishawaka for something that they shouldn't necessarily be there for.

We want to make sure that they get the qualified help that they need.

So that would keep the hospital's numbers down.

PD calls our fire and EMS calls from being sent.

We're another emergency.

Could be taking place.

We don't want that.

We want to make sure if there is an emergency within our scope that we are responding to it.

But we don't want to we don't want to waste resources.

And so but we don't want to incarcerate anyone either.

They don't need to be incarcerated.

We want to just make sure they get the help that they need.

And again, mental health in is one thing I'd like to add to mental health for the whole community, this whole community, the whole country is that is not just something that's out there for people to see the walk in the streets or someone that doesn't have a home or or someone that doesn't have a job is all of this all of those?

And then it's also all of us.

It's all of us that are working and functioning on a daily basis but are overwhelmed with whatever's going on in our life.

And it takes a big toll on us.

And and none of us are abstaining or so in susceptible of of reaching that point, you know, by whatever the reason is, we may not be in the same situation as some others.

But what I try to put first in on South Bend fire department is that we are here for everyone in our community.

It has nothing to do with status quo.

It does has nothing to do with where you live, where you work, comments, money.

You have the color of your skin, the denomination of your religion.

It means none of that.

It's it's all about people.

We are in the business of helping people and people is people.

And that's the holy word people.

So, you know, we just want to make sure that it all starts with the call takers making sure they get asking the right questions, getting the right information so that they can hit the right buttons to send the right people.

But again, as Pastor Carl said, we got to work on trying to make it accessible to have those people, not just during the daytime hours, but 24 hours.

One of the things that faith in Indiana is promoting is a dollar to cell phone tax that throughout the state to help fund those ongoing services and make it 24 hours a day, and that we think it's worthwhile for the sake of the people in our community, as you're saying, Chief, for everyone to pay a dollar a month on their cell phone tax so we can fund this ongoing and this is what other states have done.

And faith in Indiana supports those efforts and are working with state legislatures so we can have expanded funding in a 24 hour, seven day a week coverage for people, because mental health crises can happen to people at any time.

We all deserve safe and caring communities.

Well, you know, I'd definitely be one for that.

And I can't speak for the the entire city or county that we all reside in.

But at the same time, because I, I would not sit here and say, oh, yes, I'm definitely for something that I may be able to afford.

Right?

We all we all can can understand that there are many in our community that don't even have a dollar, but they should still be able to be included in this.

Right.

And this is where the democracy democracy in our country is great at to where is you know what?

For those that can afford it, they should be willing to pay it.

But again, we can't always force them to do so.

But all we can do, I feel, is appeal to their compassion and their sense of just wanting to be conscientious, that there are people out there that have a need and it shouldn't be about whether they can afford it or not.

And if I can do whatever I can do whatever part I can do, I should be willing to do it.

That's just caring about people.

So definitely looking toward resources to make this a reality.

I imagine that is often one of the questions.

Are there resources available for additional mental health services, including the Response Crisis Team?

It sounds like that's something your working on and you believe will make a difference and May might have even made a difference in previous cases.

And that's in this faith in Indiana, faith and Saint County.

Our chapter here has been working on that.

There have been many other issues where we have tried to gather people of goodwill to advocate for things that we want as a community, whether it is testing for lead paint in our homes, whether it is the de-escalation and use of force policy with our city police force that we've had revised, whether it is the Health Department grant so that we could address health disparities in our community.

These are all things that faith Indiana has advocated for the democracy of gathering people together to identify issues where we have a common goal we currently have ND researchers looking at right now at the county cost to see the funds that we are spending not only on mental health but on low barrier shelters at the county and the city are committing.

How is that saving us money in our jails and in our E.R.

so that we hope to show that, at least from a financial viewpoint, that we are saving money by being proactive and caring for people.

We all deserve safe and caring communities.

And if we are proactive with where we spend our money and use it wisely, we will see financial benefits.

There is obviously the moral and the ethical benefits also that we see because these are people who are struggling, who have different needs and cares and concerns.

But we want to show that that we can also make it work financially and budget wise.

Now, one of the things that Beacon Resource Center executive director Jeff Walker said is quote, Saint Joseph County has few options, but to go to an emergency room or call 911, our county jail is still the de facto detox center and the first provider of mental health services for many.

Why do you think mental health options are so incomplete?

Is it this issue of resources?

Do we just need more attention on that issue?

What care does somebody receive if they arrive at a detox center or even at the county jail?

And is it enough?

Right.

It's clearly not enough to simply be put in a in a prison cell.

If you're having a mental health crisis, if you are an active user and need detox and need medical care, if you need support in relationship.

And one of the things that goes along with people knowing when to call 911 for a fire for a police mental health emergency is also knowing whether resources are available in the community.

In our southeast neighborhood where the the central fire station is and where Broadway, Christian Parish resides, we have lots of other resources that are available to help people who are in the community.

We have the YWCA that helps victims of domestic violence.

That's a targeted resource.

We have the Youth Service Bureau that helps not only care for youth who are on the street, but help them find housing and reconcile with their family when possible.

We have the LGBTQ center that provides people needs focused on their sexuality and gender issues that they may be experiencing.

We have other groups such as Connect to be the change in the safe outreach team in our neighborhood who are available.

And so we want neighbors to know that you don't have to just call 911, but there's lots of resources that we have in our community.

We recently had a domestic disturbance in our neighborhood on a Sunday morning where a woman, a woman and her child are being held at gunpoint by a man.

And the police were called to resolve that situation as well they should when there is lethal force.

But one of our neighbors knew this man and he was able to go and the police would let him go into the building because this man was okay with that.

And Isaac was able to get this man to put down his weapon and come out without his weapon and to resolve the situation without the use of lethal force.

It's examples of Isaac and other people like that in our community that we need to let our neighbors know about that you have options.

You have different ways.

When someone is in mental health crisis, when they are in need, that there are different resources that we can use.

Just as if you have a little fire on your stove, you're going to support the fire extinguisher.

To put that out, you don't need a whole battalion of hoses to come out and overwhelm a small kitchen fire.

In that same way, we want to make sure people know that there's different levels of services intervention that they can call on if they are in need so that we have the appropriate level of force that is being used, whether it's by the fire department with their hoses, whether it's by the police that they bring or the different other mental health and other community resources that we have.

So if somebody is experiencing a mental health issue or somebody sees a loved one experiencing a mental health issue they think is escalating, who would you encourage them to reach out to in lieu of or perhaps before 911, if that hasn't yet escalated into an emergency?

So Oakland's main phone number is a great resource where people can call get information.

Our city has a 311 line where people can talk to a city ambassador if they want to find resources that they have in the city.

And 988 is still a great national number that you can text or call if you need help and resources.

We want people to be okay talking about it and something important for us to talk about, not only on on television and our local programing, but from the pulpits, from our other places of authority to share about the realities of mental health, to be okay talking about it so people get the supports and the care that they need to begin.

And then the last minute that we have, council members Laurie Hammond and Henry Davis Junior authored a resolution that would call upon the city to create a crisis response team within the fire department.

It sounds like based what you and what you said before your opposition to that really was that that's not what your folks are trained to do.

And Neville says that was the total response that I gave when that was presented to me.

For one, again, I recognized the importance of mental health in our community and just in the country in general.

And it's not just only in those two avenues, but also in my own department.

And the first thing that I would do is want to make sure that I poured all the resources that was available to us to help not only those within my department, but those around me.

And so understanding that we are not qualified or trained to take that on, I would be I would be remiss to say, oh, yes, the fire department can do that when I know for a fact that's not something that's within our or qualified status.

But so that was my own.

That was that was why I was not for that.

It was not that I was not for mental health and dealing with mental health and that the fire department doesn't play a role in that.

Carl Buchanon doesn't just put out a fire, Carl Buchanon doesn't just save a life or assist life.

I may be one of however many that's doing it.

I've worked as a team my whole department.

We work as a team, as a team.

And that's that's what we understand.

We get more done together than we do individually.

More done together.

Well, we'll end on that note because unfortunately, that's all the time we have right now.

But our guests are going to stick around.

And so you can make sure to catch the rest of our conversation online at WNIT.org.

Thank you so much for being here.

I'm your host, Elizabeth Bennion.

Reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part.

By viewers like you.

Thank you.