Welcome to Politically Speaking.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion, chancellor's professor of political science and director of Community Engagement at Indiana University, South Bend.

For the first time in 40 years, the Michigan legislative session started with a Democratic governor and Democratic control of both legislative chambers.

Joining us to discuss the Michigan State legislature are State Representative Steve Carra and State Representative Christine Morse.

Thank you for being here.

I want to start by asking you, Representative CarrA, to tell us a little bit about your district.

What part of Michigan do you represent?

Yeah, well, thank you for having me, Elizabeth.

I am in the 36th State Representative District, which is all of Saint Joseph County and most of Cass County in southwest Michigan.

Wonderful is part of what we refer to as Michiana and Representative Morris, what about you?

Thanks for having me on today, Elizabeth.

I represent the 40th district.

It's my second term representing the people from the city of Portage.

Two precincts in the southwest corner of the city of Kalamazoo, Texas, and Oshtemo Township's wonderful.

I want to ask you, Representative Morris, as a member of the Democratic caucus, why key issues is your party really focused on this session?

And are there areas where you feel like you can work across the aisle in a divided chamber?

Yes.

Well, I think you've already seen a lot of that.

What the Democratic caucus told people we were going to do when we were running for election for the cycle.

And we've already done a lot of it.

We have repealed right to work.

We repealed prevailing wage, we repealed the pension tax, we increased the earned income tax credit to provide tax relief.

We repeal the 1931 abortion law and we expanded the Elliot Larson Civil Rights Act, all things that were the top of all three the governor, the Senate, and our wish list four things that we intended to do, and we've already done them.

So some of them are still working through the system, through the Senate or the House, but we all anticipate all of them to be on the governor's desk for signature.

And we will continue to move forward.

Those democratic values that have really been on the sidelines for 40 years in Michigan.

This is the first time we've had a trifecta in that period of time.

And so we really look forward to really doing what we can to improve the quality of people's lives, expanding health care, making sure our environment is taken care of and our water is clean.

Expanding economic development to improve opportunities in the state and bringing our education system to where it needs to be.

We've already had record budgetary investments in education for the last two years, but we will look to increase that again this year and over time bring our system of education where it needs to be.

Now, Representative Carra, for you, it's a little bit different.

This transition has meant a move out of the majority party into the minority party.

Are there issues that you are hoping you will still be able to see championed from the GOP side and work on with the Democratic majority?

Well, last term, for example, we voted 640 times in the first year I was in office.

I'm in my third year as well.

And I actually voted no more than anybody else in the entire legislature, despite Republicans having leadership in the House and Senate.

So that was an interesting reality.

And I was ranked the most conservative state representative.

So I think it goes to show you that the Republican Party needs to do a better job inspiring people and standing on the principles and values that we believe in and not just being more to the center than the Democrats.

So that's what my thought is in terms of what we need to do as a Republican Party moving forward.

But there still are times where, even though I voted no more than anybody else, I voted yes more often than I voted no last term.

And so one thing that I think we should be working on is getting rid of a discrimination issue that's happening for people who are born to unmarried parents prior to 1978, their local county clerk doesn't have their birth record on file.

So they have to go to the state, which costs them more time, energy and resources in order to get a copy of their birth certificate if they need it.

And they should be paying the same amount and have the same opportunity to get their birth certificate regardless of whether or not their parents were married.

And I think that's something that most of my colleagues across the aisle would agree with.

We did fix it in part, but we need to get rid of the time frame problem, 24 hours to do the search instead of immediately conducting the search still creates a discrimination in the process.

Representative Morris, that sounds like an issue that wouldn't be particularly divisive from a partisan stance.

No, I mean, I'm willing to look at it again as Carra introduces it this year and certainly consider it.

And you know, I didn't answer this in the last question, but something that we all can agree on is we are severely lacking in behavioral health resources and in a very bipartisan way.

We all respect that.

We know that we have workforce shortages across the state.

And I certainly see a lot of bipartisan effort to really work on both of those issues.

Do you see legislation moving forward in those areas, Representative Carra, and any legislation that you might be able to get behind?

Well, I think a lot of what we have with the mental health issue, which is clearly a problem not just in Michigan, but I believe throughout the nation, is we need to look at what is causing those mental health issues.

And so instead of solving the problem, we're spending more money on mental health.

If we could stop having so many people from having mental health issues.

And I think, you know, the breakdown of the family unit has caused a lot of that, not having the opportunity for gainful employment.

When large corporations get special corporate handouts, it redistributes wealth from the hard working middle class to the politically connected.

And if we have an economy that's fair for all Americans, for all Michiganders, and then in an atmosphere that works for everybody and not picking winners and losers, I think we'll have less people who have mental health issues, and then we'll be to use our existing funds to help those who actually do have mental health issues and who need assistance.

Representative Morris, your thoughts on that?

Well, first of all, I think there are many, many reasons people have mental illness and and some biological, some environmental.

And the fact is, the way we know how to deal with it right now is to get people into treatment.

And so, you know, if Carra has ideas on how we can stop that from happening, that's great.

But at this point, what we have is that we know that people need treatment.

So that is, you know, a certainly a great place to put funding because that is a way for people to work their way through their depression and anxiety issues that were, you know, greatly increased by the COVID pandemic in terms of workforce.

I think it's very interesting that the denigration of corporations, because we have been investing in economic development and as Democrats and now it's like we're in the upside down because the Republicans don't want to do that now, because I don't know why.

You know, the fact is we're investing in Ford and bringing 2500 jobs to Marshall, Michigan.

We're building we're rebuilding the middle class.

We repeal right to work and prevailing wage to ensure that the middle class gets paid a fair wage.

So that's what we're doing.

We're leveling the playing field by making sure we're bringing jobs to the state and then ensuring that they will be good jobs, good paying jobs when they do come here.

To viewers of our viewers who don't know what right to work is.

Could you explain what that means and why you supported repealing it?

Sure.

Back in 2011, in a lame duck, very late night session, the Republicans jammed through the right what the so called right to work bill.

But really what it does is it allows someone to get the benefits of working for a union without having to pay or be a member of that union.

So basically, it's really a right to freeload.

It's not the right to work because you have the right to work wherever you want to work.

I mean, that's.

But if you go to work for a union shop and you get the benefit of what the union does for you, then you should have to pay your fair share.

Representative Carra, your thought on right to work?

Well, I support right to work, and I think that there's too much of taxpayer dollars going towards whether it's a union or going towards places like Planned Parenthood where people's dollars are being used against them for political motives and efforts.

And so if you want to be part of a union, that more power to you, But to take money from people who are working there or in circumstances like Planned Parenthood, getting my money when I don't believe in abortion, I don't believe that that should.

I think that's a life in the womb and it should be protected.

And then so my money is being used against what I believe in and what I believe society should do to protect the process moving forward that I think is healthiest for society and is right.

I mean, our freedom stops when it infringes on somebody else's rights.

And if my taxpayers dollars are going to be used for a party to have more financial resources, that's going to be used against what I believe is the proper role of government.

I take I take issue with that.

Representative Morris.

Well, I'm not sure what he's talking about.

Tax payer dollars aren't used.

We're talking about someone paying dues to be a member of a union, a person, a person that works for a union shop.

It's not taxpayer dollars, largely speaking.

And in terms of Planned Parenthood.

I am the chair of HHS Appropriations.

We support many, many different health clinics across the states that provide health care.

Planned Parenthood provides very low cost or no cost.

Reproductive health care and abortion is not the only thing they do.

And many people go there for many reasons.

And so they there's just as much reason to invest some of our government resources there as anywhere else.

Yeah.

You say the union leaders are supporting and funneling money towards the Democrat Party.

And so I think that that's where the issue is.

So it's the concern strengthening union leaders who might then campaign against Republicans or for Democrats.

Yeah, I think that the whole system is redistributing wealth and money and it's being used for political motives.

And I just think that should not be part of the process with the with the unions Representative Morris, as you mentioned, being chair of Health and Human Services Committee.

Are there any important pieces of legislation that you expect to be introduced and considered by that committee that would really help to move health care coverage and affordable health care forward in the state of Michigan?

Well, this is not so much a legislative policy.

It is the appropriation side.

So we decide the budget.

Michigan's HHS budget represents 40% of our expenditures for this year.

It was just under $34 billion.

But that includes all the federal money that it is a pass through for Medicare and Medicaid.

So, yes, one of my top goals has always been to increase accessibility, because health care really is a human right.

It shouldn't be something you get just because you have enough money.

And so across the spectrum, there is an endless list of needs for this committee.

And, you know, only so much money.

So we are about to get down to brass tacks and decide, you know, where we get to put appropriate those dollars for this year.

So I'm going to have an emphasis on behavioral health, children's.

Welfare, as well as maternal and infant health.

Our state and actually our country does not do a good job of ensuring that we have healthy mothers post-birth and healthy infants.

So we are going to make sure we're continuing to emphasize that for our state.

And again, like I said earlier, we agree in a bipartisan way that behavioral behavioral health is a is a problem that's largely due to 30 years of deconstruction of our public health system, our public mental health system.

So we are rebuilding at this point, but it takes time and it takes bodies.

It takes, you know, educated humans to get into those roles.

And so we'll keep doing what we can to continue to increase accessibility there.

Representative Carra as the chair of the House Freedom Caucus.

Where do you stand on issues like health care, health care coverage, how that system should work?

You heard Representative Morris say it really should be a citizenship, right?

And everybody should have health insurance through either the state or the federal government.

What is your thought on that?

Well, I think we have the right and a freedom to make our decisions in the marketplace as we see fit.

And I think government has intruded far beyond what it should to get involved in that whole process.

I think the costs go up because of that.

I think the quality of care goes down because of that.

And I think that the free market and free opportunity to make your decisions in your life and to make decisions in the marketplace as you see fit is the best thing for society without coercion, manipulation or control from government.

What about people who are economically disadvantaged might not be able to afford insurance on the marketplace?

I think there's a lot of people who are in that situation because like this Marshall Mega-site $1,000,000,000.

Whether we're in the majority or not, I suppose corporate welfare and either side, I think it redistributes wealth from the hard working middle class and it gives it to the corporate elite and the politically connected.

I call that central planning.

And if we're going to take $1,000,000,000 of taxpayer money from 10 million people in the state of Michigan and give it to one private company, which which is that with ties to China, that's $100 on average from every man, woman and child, meaning $500 taken from a family who's struggling to make ends meet, to give to one company.

I think that's incredibly offensive.

And that's just $1 billion.

It was over $1,000,000,000 for that project.

So to say that helps everybody to take from them to give to one private company.

I don't see it.

Representative Morris.

Well, we're investing in our state, which we've failed to do under Republican leadership for 40 years.

We did not invest in infrastructure, education, and as a result, we were hardest hit by the recession of 2007, 2008 and beyond.

So I look at it as we're investing in ourselves.

A lot of that money is going towards the infrastructure around the site, and it has 2500 jobs, 2500 jobs.

So, you know, you can't have health care and those people will get health care with those 2500 jobs.

So you can argue against it.

That's fine.

It's his opinion.

But in my opinion, as we're investing in our state and if we don't do it, we're going to be left behind and those places will go anywhere, go elsewhere.

We are on the cusp of a revolution in the auto industry and we can either be a part of it or we can be left behind.

And as a legislator, as a legislator, I'm choosing to use my vote to ensure that we are investing in the state of Michigan for not just now, but for generations to come.

Representative Carra.

Yeah, I'd say instead of giving that special corporate handout or lowering taxes or giving a special deal to one company, we should have lower taxes across the board for all of our businesses.

Not so in the tax rate up here and then giving this special deal to the politically connected.

If we had less rules, regulations, taxes, fines and fees, small businesses would be able to operate in an atmosphere where all the businesses can thrive and not just those who have access, whether it's in Lansing or Washington, D.C. Representative Morris Because I don't know if you want the final response before we move on or our tax rate is low.

I mean, it's just whatever.

It's silly.

And to argue that reducing we did that.

We reduce taxes.

We reduce the corporate tax in 2011.

And where did it get us?

It's not super far, right.

So we're investing in ourselves.

We're bringing the business here.

We're going to be building chips here.

We're building batteries here.

And so I believe that we're doing the right thing.

But we'll see as the years go on.

See, as the years go on.

Representative Carra, you mentioned regulations and laws and policies.

One of the things that the legislature has done is passed two gun safety bills and is also looking at potential red flag laws similar to the ones they have in Indiana that would allow the police to take weapons from those who are deemed dangerous.

I wonder where you stand on these particular laws.

Well, first, I took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution.

It's very clear the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If anybody operating under their oath wants to challenge that, I think it should be done at the United States level.

And by way of amending the US Constitution, any laws that we pass in the state of Michigan are supposed to be in compliance with the US Constitution as well as the Michigan Constitution, with the US Constitution being the ultimate arbiter.

We took those rules and red flag laws going into it further.

It's it.

You should have your day in court, you should have due process.

And and I think that we need to take the right to keep and bear arms seriously, not just because of the right to keep and bear arms, But I think we need to be more prepared, not less prepared, when tragedy strikes.

What kind of tragedy do you have in mind?

Well, whether it's something at one of 94% of the mass shootings in our nation have happened, where it's a gun free zone.

94%.

So criminals know go to an area where you're less likely to be met with a response of lethal weapons.

In response.

And so I think that we need to be more prepared when that happens, not last prepared.

And I feel for our kids not because I want to simply protect the right to keep and bear arms, but because I want to protect our kids.

I want us to be ready when tragedy strikes.

And if we're not, we're going to continue to see with this mental health crisis on the rise, more and more of these tragic shootings, whether it's at MSU or or around the nation, like we saw more recently down there in Nashville or things of that nature.

Representative Morris Well, first of all, the first line of the Second Amendment is a well-regulated militia, which people like to ignore, but that is also part of it.

Second of all, the Supreme Court has already held that guns can be regulated, so it's already other gun restrictions have been found constitutional.

And so that's where I'll start.

I have been a member of Moms Demand Action for a number of years.

I was a I was a gun sense candidate.

So I'm going to continue to fight for common sense gun laws that might make an impact.

The problem with gun violence in this country is it's not just one cause, right?

It's a multi multifaceted problem that we have to try to, you know, look at every angle of how we can reduce it.

So that's in the public health sphere.

That's more behavioral health services.

That's common sense gun laws that restrict access where needed require, you know, safe storage.

If there are children in the home, which seems like a no brainer, I don't really get why you would vote against that.

And in terms of ERPO laws, I mean, certainly not just in the Lansing case, but this Nashville case.

I mean, family members said that that they were concerned for that person and the fact that they had guns in their possession.

So if they had if we had had an ERPO law, maybe Michigan State could have been stopped.

You know, if Tennessee had had an ERPO law, maybe there, you know, because the parents were concerned.

So the fact is we should be using every tool available in our tool kit that is constitutional under the Second Amendment.

This doesn't impact people's Second Amendment rights.

The ERPO law that has been crafted includes due process.

And so I stand firmly behind.

This is one avenue that we can use to impact gun violence.

But we also have to explore every other avenue that we could try to impact.

What about Representative Carra's point about gun free school zones, for example?

Well, I'm just going to say that if more guns made us safer, then we should be by far the safest country in the nation or safest country in the world.

But we are clearly not.

Our gun violence is miles ahead of any other country.

So the problem is more guns in schools is not necessarily going to make children safe.

We had officers involved who were afraid of shooting at a guy with an AR 15.

So, you know, I understand that argument, but I don't also think that arming teachers or more guns at school is necessarily going to make us any safer.

As we think about the other laws.

You mentioned voting against a lot of legislation, both now with the Democrats in control, but also with the Republicans are in control overall.

Is the general problem, in your view, that they're just making too many laws that give government too much control over people's lives?

Is that what you mean when you talk about moving too far to the center?

Yeah, I think that a lot of people will try to brand the middle as a pragmatic or moderate or a bipartisan type of position.

But when the Lansing lobby core, the special interests, the corporate elite who have ties with big government, are getting their special deals and we're redistributing wealth from the hard working middle class to the politically connected and to the corporate elite, whether it's under Republican control or Democrat control.

I think the people of Michigan or throughout the nation, whether it's down here in Indiana or anywhere, would be incredibly offended if they knew just how much we're taking money from them to give to the corporate and ruling elite, regardless of whether it's Republican or Democrats who are in control.

More of a populist position in many ways.

Looking out for the common person.

I think it's a free market position.

We should all have equal opportunity, not just because we're a large corporation with lobbying power in Lansing or Washington, D.C. Let's have lower tax structure.

Let's have let's have an atmosphere where everybody can thrive and not just those who have the special hand handouts that they get from government.

So do you see this as a split within the GOP caucus?

I think the viability of the Republican Party is best moving forward, standing on free markets and equal opportunity for everybody and saying that those special handouts, $1,000,000,000 or hundreds of billions of dollars in some circumstances to large corporations, especially when they have ties to China, even if they don't have ties to China.

That's not fair to all the small businesses who don't get those same deals And the trickle down economic type of concept from that I believe is is wrong.

And I think we need to stand on freedom and free markets.

That's the viability of the Republican Party moving forward.

And Representative Morris, your last couple of sentences, your thoughts on what the legislature needs to do to look out for the everyday person?

Well, I think it's continuing the work that we've already done, again, to expand education for K-12, make sure our kids are getting a proper education in that space, and then also expanding opportunities, whether that's for skilled trades, for things like futures, for frontliners and opportunities for people to get education to move forward again, trying to bring down the costs of health care because that impacts us all.

And continuing to invest in economic opportunities that bring jobs to Michigan.

It's pretty interesting that there is a disbelief in trickledown, but I think when you're bringing 2500 workers with a giant new plant to an area that's going to increase small businesses and and opportunities for small businesses in that area, because you have so many people, so many people, more people living there and things that the, you know, the Ford plant will need to help keep it humming and make sure there's places for those people to eat.

So I really, truly believe that we are investing in our state for a viable future that will bring economic opportunity all the way down.

All right.

Well, unfortunately, this will have to be a conversation that we continue at a future date, because that's all the time we have for this episode of Politically Speaking.

I want to thank our guests, Michigan State Representatives Steve Carra and Christine Morris.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion, reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work.

We'll see you next time.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.