Welcome to Politically Speaking.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion, chancellor's professor of political science and director of Community Engagement at Indiana University South Bend.

It's been over three years since Pete Buttigieg left the mayor's office to pursue his presidential campaign in 2020.

His successor, James Mueller, is close to finishing his first term as mayor and is running for reelection, challenging him.

Are South Bend Common council member Henry Davis, Jr. And Republican candidate Desmont Upchurch.

We sit down for a conversation with each of the three South Bend mayoral candidates on this special edition of Politically Speaking.

Well, thank you so much for being here, Mayor.

Thank you for having me.

Now, I want to start by asking you, what are you most proud of in terms of what you have accomplished during your first term as mayor?

Well, you know, I ran to be mayor following working in Mayor Pete's administration because of all of the progress we've been able to make in the last decade, including investment and population growth.

And I've been pleased that during my administration, we've reached the the fastest population growth since the 1950s.

We've had the most private investment in city history.

And, of course, we've been able to turn around our staffing shortages that have plagued our police department for many years.

And as long as I've worked in the city and now we look to be fully staffed the summer and and the no end in sight there, unlike some been some previous times where we've kind of reached that number.

And then we were facing a number of retirements there shortly after.

So we're in a good spot in those places.

And we were able to do this all in the face of headwinds of a once in a century pandemic, record inflation, a 50 years of record inflation, supply chain shortages.

So we've been able to do this all with all these challenges kind of facing us at once.

Now, as you talk about that population growth, too, what factors do you attribute it?

Well, I mean, there are a lot of pieces to this.

We know that in today's economy, it's not people following smokestacks, it's employers following people.

And so the most critical thing is our economic development strategy.

For the last number of years has been focused on making South Bend a place to both retain our residents who grow up here so they don't move out of our area or they don't necessarily, you know, they don't feel like they have to move out of the area.

This is a great community to stay in, but also attract people from the outside and make sure people see South Bend as a as a destination, a place not just to visit, but also to set their roots here.

So a lot of the pieces that we've been doing, you know, whether it's Mayor Pete Smart Streets to revitalize downtown, our historic investments in parks and trails and other pieces.

And this also is in concert with the state's economic development strategy.

Placemaking is one piece that we share with the state in terms of priority of how do we move our city and our state forward.

You mentioned being part of the Buttigieg administration, you're both chief of staff as well as director of community investment.

How is it different being mayor compared to being a member of the mayor's staff or team?

Well, you know, I enjoyed the in some ways the anonymity of being a staff person in the administration.

So I wasn't as recognized on the street as I am now.

But I've enjoyed stepping into the role.

But, you know, getting to get to know the residents more.

You know, people will come up to you and say, Mayor, I have this idea or mayor, can you help me with this or that?

And so that's certainly a new part of the the role of city government for me.

And also just, you know, at one point you can make a recommendation to the elected official.

I'd worked for a mayor that worked for Senator Cantwell of Washington State.

But ultimately, they were the they were the elected official and they had to make the decision.

And so it is, you know, a little bit different where you realize you're making the decision.

You're not just recommending or, you know, providing a path.

You're the one actually signing the document, making the decision, making the call.

And, you know, if usually the decisions that make it up to the mayor's office, even as chief of staff, the easy ones don't come up.

The easy ones get handled lower down in the in the administration.

And so there's always some tradeoff that's coming in, the decisions that you make and you have to make it and move forward.

So would it be fair to describe you as an introvert and a policy wonk who was committed enough to the city to be willing to step into this role and make those hard decisions?

Well, people find this hard to believe.

You know, on personality tests.

I'm actually an extrovert.

I'm just a quiet extrovert, and I do listen quite a bit.

So I enjoy being around people and enjoy, you know, going to events and things.

And so that part actually helps me in this role being a kind of a secret extrovert in that way because I am quieter than many.

But I do enjoy being around people.

So that's helpful because this job really is about being around people and talking to people.

Right.

And energy from that.

Now, if you had to pick one and I know this is difficult, what would you say is the most important issue facing the city of South Bend at this particular moment?

Well, we know that, you know, public safety has been a top priority of mine since day one, and it is on the minds of our residents.

We've seen not just here, but but across the country, we've seen an uptick of violent crime over the past number of years.

Fortunately, here since 2019, our part one offenses last year were down by 11%.

When we say part one offenses What does that mean?

Those are the most serious ones.

So, you know, you think of you know, you think of shootings, aggravated assaults, you know, robberies, just the serious crimes as opposed to petty part two are more of the petty crimes.

Like petty theft.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so so you see some progress.

But what would you do to continue that progress and make the city safer and make residents feel even more safe here in South Bend?

Right.

I mean, so, you know, we've got a great police department and we're going to be fully staffed for the first time in many years.

We've brought on in my administration 76 new officers over the past three and a half years.

You know, a third of them are women and people of color.

And so we're proud that we're going to have the team and the police department that is no longer just trying to keep the lights on and running from call to call.

We're going to be able to do some of the more proactive things.

And we've heard things like traffic being an issue.

And so we haven't been able to people have noticed, we haven't been able to to do much traffic enforcement while we were short staffed.

But now we'll have some capacity to make sure that, you know, this isn't looking to to bring, you know, a ticketing system, but it is to make sure that drivers know they can't just drive recklessly across our city and and expect not to face some consequences.

So things like that, you know, expand our strategic focus unit and other pieces.

So we've got our department that's going to be in the best shape it's been in in a long time.

But then we've also working to bring the community on board.

And so, you know, no matter how many officers we have, they can't be everywhere 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

And so that's where we are.

The community really comes in, make sure that we're partnering to solve our big issues in the community.

And so that's another piece.

We're going to be able to do more of, get the community resource officers engaged and working with neighbors to to bring our community together and make this so that every neighborhood is safe in South Bend.

There are other pieces that down.

You know, we've had the group violence intervention Program.

We're continuing that, and that's in a good spot.

So it's really going to take all of these pieces coming together to get us to where we want to be.

And then long term, we need long term solutions to we know, you know, a lot of the crime is happening in certain areas of the city that are also experiencing economic struggles.

And so figuring out how to build those opportunities and extend those opportunities across the entire community will get us to where we want to go in the long term.

It seems like some of those more serious offenses that do make the headlines are related to guns or personal beefs turn deadly.

There's a limit to what a mayor can do.

What can we do about that?

Well, like I said, there are there is a limit.

You know, we were disappointed of last year when the state legislature got rid of, you know, instituted a permitless carry system.

That was something our law enforcement community spoke out against removing that because that was one way to help keep guns out of the wrong hands.

Those who shouldn't be having guns would.

It was a system in which they could use and make sure that, you know, they were keeping our community safe.

But the white access to guns is a problem.

I mean, this is a problem not just in South Bend, it's a problem in our country.

And unfortunately, the mayor of South Bend doesn't have a lot of levers to to effect that.

The you know, the state and the federal levels are really have the control on gun regulations and the commonsense policies.

But, you know, I will continue as mayor to advocate for those commonsense measures to be enacted that both the state and federal levels.

We saw a little bit of progress last year at the federal level.

They they got something done for the first time in decades.

So, you know, there's always hope that, you know, everyone says, oh, well, you know, pointing at the state, nothing will ever get done.

Well, we did see some progress last year, and we hope we can continue to build on this because this is a problem in America.

And, you know, we've got to figure out a better way forward.

Now, you mentioned the fact that people in some neighborhoods may lack economic opportunities.

One of the planks in your platform really is to build our neighborhoods block by block.

How do you do that and really support those neighborhoods?

Give people a sense of belonging and a sense of pride?

Yeah, I mean, you know, we've been doing a lot of work with the neighborhood associations and those groups, the development groups, nonprofit groups that that are associated with different neighborhoods.

So, you know, there's four or six works in the Southeast.

There's the NNN and the Northwest.

There are others to South Bend Heritage and work with them.

I mean, really, you know, when you think of housing, for example, and making housing affordable, that that really is about a government role coming in because the market is not providing the housing we need.

And you know, we believe in free market principles, but there are there are classic cases where the market just doesn't work.

And that's, you know, this this is not this has not been a controversial fact for many years, although sometimes it seems like we forget this and in different political debates.

But there are times in which the market just doesn't do what it needs to do.

People need places to live.

And if the market's not providing that, we've got to figure something out.

And oftentimes that means some level of government intervention.

And so, of course, we need the state and federal levels to come in.

They have you know, they have the big dollars that come in and really move the needle.

But we're doing what we can with the dollars.

We have to get more housing into our neighborhoods and also more investment into, you know, a more neighborhood business, local business, community and ecosystem.

So all of those pieces come together, you know, on the the Midwest side.

Kennedy Park neighborhood, you know, the big investment into the Dr. Martin Luther King Dream Center that we see that as a catalytic, uh, you know, it's great to have the community center, the park, but also what that's going to encourage in the surrounding neighborhoods, investment in housing, investment in, in business corridors.

Now, you mentioned the market not working.

Essentially, are developers saying, look, it costs a certain amount and more than ever to build a home.

And if I build it here, I'm not going to get a good return on investment.

So if that's happening, you mentioned that the city can do things.

What what specifically?

Sure.

Could we.

Do.

Yeah.

So, you know, that's exactly right.

It's not not getting a good enough return.

It's in many cases not getting a return at all.

It's just not it just doesn't pencil out.

And so, you know, of course, we do things like home financing programs where we do help cover that gap.

We have one loan programs where we help, you know, get access to low cost financing to help cover those gaps.

But then the big thing that we did, you know, over the last year or so is what was called the New Neighborhood Homes Initiative.

And that did a couple of things.

One, it removes the uncertainty and some of the costs associated with connecting the utility.

So connecting, you know, new houses to our water and sewer utility is a source of cost that sometimes can tip a project from, you know, working or not working en masse.

So we we did cover it up to a certain amount for infill housing to, you know, take that that burden off of a new development in neighborhoods as well as we brought forth what we're called pre-approved plans.

This is another part where that can generate a cost that could tip a project over the top.

So having plans, you know, that are meet the city's codes, all of those things, then the developers don't have to necessarily go out and pay an architect for this house.

They can adapt these plans and build on lots in our neighborhoods.

And so we're doing everything we can to to take squeeze all the costs we can out of the equation.

And then but nevertheless, oftentimes, there still needs to be some level of either financing help or some level of subsidy.

Now, another thing, of course, that attracts people to a city are good public schools.

This is something that the mayor actually does not control and the city of South Bend.

But what is it that the mayor can do to be part of this?

Yeah, I mean, this is something we you know, we need to work with our schools because our schools are so critical to to our future and the future of our neighborhoods.

So we've heard strong neighborhoods, strong schools, they go hand in hand.

So just because they're separate entities, we've got to find ways to work together and the way we've we've been working toward that goal is seeing where we fit in, where does the city fit in?

And, you know, we have pushed, you know, pre-K access, making sure students are ready to learn in K through 12 on day one.

You know, they're not some students are not coming in at a disadvantage.

So getting access to pre-K is critical.

And we've been able to increase about a 500 seats, pre-K seats over, you know, over the past few years with partners, both schools and the United Way.

Then also looking to what are opportunities outside of school, you know, afterschool programing with our Parks and recreation team, summer programing when they're out of school and then looking toward as they're they're getting ready to enter into a career, making sure they have the connections and the ability to to move into our workforce.

And so that's another piece where we're workforce development, working with our schools on technical education as well.

Those are pieces where where we fit in.

But there's even more than that is figuring out, you know, they've they've got a tough time.

The schools, you know, the the state legislature values choice, which is, you know, that's a philosophical choice that our legislature is making.

And, you know, between vouchers and a dollar charter school, we're a city that has too many school buildings for the population.

It was built for when we were a larger population.

And back then, families were having more kids.

And so now we have, you know, we're growing again.

Well, you know, we'll get back up there, but we're still have an issue of, you know, families aren't having as many kids as they used to.

And so we don't have the number we don't have the need for the number of square footage of school space that we did previously.

And so what's what's what's what's difficult is that's that's an obvious, uh, but as the schools close spaces, the state has allowed charters to come in and buy them for a dollar now and they'll argue, well, taxpayers paid for this, so that should be able to be a school.

But on some level we've got to come up with a rational, uh, approach to this where we have the right number of schools for our city and we make sure that our schools are able to succeed so that's, you know, that takes partnerships at the state level.

Uh, this is, uh, and, and that's, those are conversations we need to keep, uh, having and make sure that we're not pulling the rug out from under cities like South Bend.

The school closes because there aren't enough children for the school, and then a new charter opens in the same building, perpetuating the same.

We haven't reduced it.

We haven't reduced the the square footage of schools.

But, you know, we got to work with our school system to make sure that we're competing for those students.

There is there is a competition here, and there's no reason why we can't we can't win that.

So if there was one last thing you would want voters to know before they make their decision, what would it be here or something you'd like them to think about as they head to the polls?

We're at a place where South Bend is a place that people want to be, where people are moving to, and we have the opportunity to be, you know, the Austin of the Midwest or the Portland of the Midwest or those mid-sized town that really have have that, you know, that kind of buzz, that kind of feel.

So it's very exciting where we are right now.

And we've just got to keep all of the things that we've been working toward.

And not just me, not just Mayor Pete.

The mayor since the Studebaker closed, have been doing their part to get to this place.

It's a privilege and an honor to be mayor at a time when we have momentum.

These investments are are bearing fruit and, you know, the sky's the limit for the future.

And I look forward to see what's next.

But we do have to come together as a community to make that happen.

All right.

Well, thank you.

That's all the time we have.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

It's great to see you again, Councilman Davis.

Great to be saying.

Thank you.

It's good to see you as well.

Now, I want to start with a really basic question, which is what qualifies you to be the next mayor of the city of South Bend?

Well, you're looking at former college athlete.

I don't like losing.

And as a matter of fact, I'm a huge competitor.

I hate losing more than I like winning.

And so you're looking at a person that won't stop, won't quit and won't stop of anything until the job is finished.

Since 2005, I've been an elected official.

I first got in as a precinct committee chairman with the Democratic Party here in Saint Joseph County subsequently went and ran for South Bend City Council, Common Council, and now I'm in my third term.

I passed over 30 pieces of legislation.

One of the ones that we're really still dealing with and should be, but we are dealing with the Citizens Review Board.

That was my my baby.

I wrote the policy that connected or expanded the relationship between the Zoological Society and the South Bend Potawatomi Zoo, the legislation and that brought in jobs and brought in new tax base of recognition part.

I put that in place.

The changes that you've seen on Western Avenue in downtown South Bend with small businesses, that was my legislation.

The three way liquor license to help expand some of the small businesses downtown wrote that as well.

Look, I've done the job right.

And so then I went back to school, got my master's in management business management.

And so now I'm understanding the role of the government a little bit better, a lot better.

And I understand that my skill set can go on to the 14th floor or into the mayor's office to help reduce a better outcome than make sure the city departments are working at a higher level so that we can be more responsive to citizen needs.

Now, as you think about that transition from councilman to mayor, is there something that you hope to accomplish as mayor that you've not yet accomplished as a council person?

Oh, absolutely.

We want to bring jobs in here to South Bend.

We want our neighborhoods to be flourishing.

We want to create a larger, more systematic relationship that's going to improve with the South Bend Community School Corporation.

As a matter of fact, I wrote the policy for that back in 2009.

And so I'm really happy I'm excited about the opportunity of becoming mayor of South Bend.

So that we can start moving forward on some of these initiatives, but expand them.

I think the backdrop of having Notre Dame here in the city of South Bend is a great opportunity.

But to those who are obviously at IUSB as well, because those are working class folks, right?

Those are people that are already invested into this community.

Those people who live here grew up here usually, and they are actually probably more homeowners now at this point with our children and probably in our local school corporation.

So I'm looking forward to expanding the relationships and making sure that we all realize South Bend how it's supposed to be for every family here in South Bend.

If you were pressed to think about the most important issue facing the city right now, what would you say.

I'll say its probably crime right now.

That will probably be my my first answer would be crime.

Crime has reared its ugly head again.

And now, it's turned into something that we all don't want to see, crime has led to so many lives being lost at a very early age and has scared investors away, as well as other people who may want to move into South Bend.

So we have to get away from the idea of the crime element.

We just the other day interview someone for the Citizens Review Board and he began to read our mail to us, telling us that we had a grade F as it relates to homicides in this area.

Then he told us about the D and C race, as well as it relates to crime in this area.

We got to get away from that.

There's no place for that in South Bend.

There's no place for that in the state of Indiana or even across the United States of America.

But I'm here in South Bend and I'm looking to improve that relationship as it relates to crime.

But making sure crime does not have a seat at the table.

We've got to kick it out, kick it out of city limits.

So as you think about how to address that issue of crime, is it more officers on the street, better technology, more interactions with the community, diverting funding to other kinds of resources?

How would you approach it?

It could be all of the above, right?

I think we've tried a number of the things that you just brought up.

Citizens Review Board was one of the tries at it look people need to feel like they have a place in South Bend.

They need to feel like that there is hope, right?

There is not hopelessness.

Our school corporation, whether it is shutting down right now, doesn't give people hope.

It makes people feel like that they don't belong here or no one cares.

And so we have to come in with a different spirit, different plan of action that says, hey, you belong here.

We care about you, we love you, we want you here.

You're a valuable part of this community.

I think that's how we start the conversation about tearing down crime.

Investment is always a good thing.

We have to begin to invest in people.

The problem is, is that we haven't been investing in people.

Even now, we're talking about more condos, more apartments, we're talking about more buildings.

People still need to fill those buildings.

And if we have the wrong people filling those buildings or people who are hopeless about living in South Bend, filling those buildings.

We're just going to have the same outcome that we've been suffering from.

So, I mean, there's a number of ways that we can go at this.

I totally believe that we need investment through investment, especially into our human capital, the members of this community, and we need to realize policing differently as well here.

Recently, we've seen what happens when a person is having a mental breakdown and how that person was treated by law enforcement.

I don't blame anybody for that.

I can't.

But since we know that that exists, how are we going to go about it later on and how do we retrain ourselves to deal with it?

And so we have models across the country.

When you have a crisis intervention unit that is deployed to areas where a person is having a mental break, now, we need to have that here in South Bend.

We should have that in South Bend.

We will have that here in South Bend.

So we have to start realizing this differently than what we've been doing.

They said doing the same thing over and over again is insanity and expecting different results.

So we got to do something different.

And when you talk about that crisis response system, then are you talking about sending in a team of mental health professionals, perhaps in addition to or instead of law enforcement, in some cases?

Law Enforcement has to be present, right, Because there is a problem going on here.

We don't know how it's going to turn out.

So we want law enforcement to be there, but we don't want to do is turn this into a situation that that it shouldn't be, that the killing of Dante Kittrell was was very traumatic for the community, whether you knew him or not.

It was traumatic.

And so we don't need to repeat that.

So yes, we need a crisis intervention unit as deployed to the area that's accompanied by law enforcement officials to handle and secure the area until the until the mental health technicians or professionals are able to handle the situation and quell whatever's going on with that person who's having a mental breakdown.

And in terms of that Citizen Review Board that you mentioned, where would they come in and what role do they play in overseeing what's happening?

We'll see.

Citizens Review Board was something that the community wanted and started that back in 2014.

We finally got it passed a couple of years ago and people were asking for another way of going about, you know, keeping and holding law enforcement officials responsible or accountable.

I get that right.

So what we wanted to do and what I was trying to do was offer the community into the process.

People don't feel like that they're being offered into the process because the Board of Public Safety is made up of mayoral appointees.

Right.

And so many other boards that will hold these individuals accountable.

So the chances of people even feeling like they got a fair shake when they feel like they're being done wrong is probably next to zero.

So a Citizens Review Board provides that buffer.

It gives the community the opportunity to say, Hey, this happened, this is what's going on.

And then we have different individuals that are going to be able to investigate what's happening and what has occurred and come up with something that says, hey, either you were treated fairly or unfairly and this is what we say should happen next.

And so we want more people at the table.

We want the citizens of South Bend to say, hey, we belong here, and we're a part of the decision making process.

We don't want people to feel like that they're not involved, that that's really actually adds to the atmosphere of of it being crime filled and violent.

It does.

It adds to it.

So powering and that and creating that sense of belonging.

We have to empower people.

Now, I want to follow up.

You mentioned the schools.

Of course, the mayor doesn't actually control the schools, but what is it that you think the mayor should do and can do?

Well, let me tell you this history.

Right back when Stephen Luecke Mayor Steve Luecke became mayor, he dissolved the relationship between the school board and the city of South Bend.

There was a relationship with Joe Kernan was mayor, and also before it was a hybrid board, we made appointments to the board along with certain individuals who were elected to the board as well by the community.

So us was saying that there was really no relationship and there can't be a relationship.

I say, No, that's not true.

We can employ that tool again or we can just get a seat at the table when the school board is meeting or in the offices with the school superintendent.

I think it's incumbent upon us to do that.

And the reason why I say is because those same individuals that go to the schools here in South Bend are the same individuals that live in South Bend.

Their parents are taxpaying citizens, they're residents, etc.. And so what happens with those schools is what happens to us on the other end.

So if we have a school closure, that school actually depletes the property tax value of the other homes in that area where it's closed at.

So property taxes is what the local government thrives on.

That's how we function.

And so we have school closures in these neighborhoods.

Guess what?

We're not going to be able to do trash service like we've been doing street sweeping like we should be doing, and so many other things that we are supposed to be offering to the public.

If those schools continue to close, we will have less money.

And guess what else happens?

We're not able to recruit employers to this area either.

And so, I mean, is is is a real bad mixture.

We need to get involved.

We have to get involved and we have to figure out how to correct this and begin to recruit families back to this area and start rebuilding our school corporation, our public school corporation.

Now, of course, consultants from firms, HPM and Fanning, how I have made recommendations to close Clay High School and Warren Elementary.

It sounds like you are not in favor of moving forward with the recommendation.

No, no, I'm not.

You know, Warren has a special place in my heart.

My son attended Warren during his first several years of school.

Those teachers over there were awesome.

They were committed.

As a matter of fact, one of his teachers was the wife of assistant principal of Mies when I was in middle school.

So it was just like one of those great things.

It was a great feeling.

When you have people that know you and know your child.

And so relationships mean everything, right?

But closing schools?

No, I don't think that we have fully thought this plan out and the reason why I say that it goes back to the real estate conversation, but also goes to our our identity here in this world.

We can't be known for just shutting down schools or the idea of right sizing the school corporation we need to be talking about how do we build not shutting down.

And so if we are only thing that we are allowed to do, one thing that we are going to be talking about doing is shutting down and moving people out because people are moving out and we're not doing our job.

Now, as we think about real estate, you have been a vocal critic of Mayor Buttigieg's 1000 houses in 1000 days initiative to deal with blighted properties.

What would you have liked to see instead, and how will you deal with the issue of safe, affordable housing?

Well.

I was a critic because development can be an afterthought.

I wasn't a critic because those houses in my district, a lot of them were in the second District.

They need to come down.

I drove pass those houses all the time.

I was called over to many of those neighborhoods and asked, What can we do about this property and how we're going to take care of it.

I get it right, But when we were going to go and try to correct the problem, we can't create another problem.

And that's what will happen.

We have so many empty, open fields in neighborhoods that are not being taken care of, that that doesn't receive the grass cutting.

That is that is, do we have farmers running around in those yards, you know, just setting up shop, you know, raccoons, possums, what name it.

You know, And a lot of people in the urban area shouldn't have to expect that there's a deer in front of your house.

Right.

These are true stories.

So I call foul on that.

What I would do, I would bridge a relationship, a stronger relationship with the Department of HUD, our housing authority.

That's the quickest way that we can get to an affordable housing plan and begin to develop the other thing is that I want to offer local housing developers incentives.

How about no cost for the lot?

No cost for sewer and water hook up.

No cost.

I just want you here so we can begin to rebuild these neighborhoods.

We just can't be cherry picking who wins and who loses.

We need everybody to win so we can realize South Bend to be the community that we all want it to be.

It sounds like all three mayoral candidates talk about wanting growth to occur across the city, an opportunity to be available in all neighborhoods.

It sounds also like that's part of your solution to making that happen.

Sure.

How else can the city make sure to take care of people in neighborhoods that may have neglected?

And do you think that some neighborhoods have been.

Absolutely There's a lot of neighborhoods that's been neglected.

I get a call from a gentleman about Locust Row a couple of weeks ago.

He was talking about the amount of potholes and and dangerous ditches along the road in South Bend city limits.

And so he was saying this has been neglected, talked about how the South Side has been neglected.

It has not been care for for a period of time.

And so we want to talk about the west side.

Most of the time when we talk about neglect it's it's spread across the entire city, the southeast end of town, Riley High School area, same type of situation.

So we want we want to expand this discussion.

Right.

And everybody says they want growth.

But show me how.

Right.

I've written policy for growth.

Right.

And have gotten results out of that growth.

Right.

I have an MBA that says Henry knows what it is to do proper management.

Right.

And so we have to employ the tools and skill sets that we have.

Look, we're smart enough.

We're creative enough to to create a more happier atmosphere in South Bend.

But what we shouldn't be doing is stopping people from participating and that's what hasn't been happening.

Yes, it sounds good.

I say, Yeah, I want growth, but prove it right.

And so my legislation improves it.

My years of service proves it is just not a tagline.

It's just not something sexy that I'm saying to make people say, Oh, you know, you somehow know I have receipts, I have a life in doing this.

Right.

And so when we want growth, you go for growth.

And guess what?

It doesn't always necessarily mean that we only talk about what we can do here in South Bend.

Let's go to Pasadena, California to figure out what they've been doing.

Let's go to Sacramento, California see what they've been doing.

Let's go to Des Moines, Iowa and see what they've been doing.

Chicago, Illinois.

Let's see what their best practices are and see that we can actually pull those in here and see how they fit in our growth matrix.

Yes.

Now some developers say look construction costs are high.

It costs a lot to build affordable housing.

And building it in certain neighborhoods means you won't be able to get the value out of it.

Are there additional things the city should do to incentivize them?

Well, that's what I was saying about no cost for water hookup.

We can eat that cost.

When I was talking about sewer hookup, we can eat that cost, right?

The lots we can eat that cost.

Those are like the top three, right?

Anything outside that we really can't touch it.

We can't.

We offer tax abatements.

And so let's offer our tax abatement for, let's say, if we're going to clear out the whole block.

And look, we just saw that out there at industry common area, right?

They cleared out the entire block.

They were offered tax abatements and they were offered bank backed loans that were able to support the development to happen.

We can do the same thing that that happened out there in these neighborhoods obviously it will be at a smaller scale.

There won't be homes that are $1,000,000 plus, but we can do it in the city of South Bend city limits, especially in these neighborhoods that are dying for it, we deserve that.

We can do that.

And what happens when a developer doesn't fulfill his promises after getting an abatement or getting public investment?

Obviously, the Dave Matthews, the other extenuating circumstances from a grocery store downtown, but he's not the only one, as you pointed out in a debate recently.

What can the city do?

Be, Be clear, be actionable and be and be who we say we are.

We enforce the law.

The mayor's office, enforces the law.

No one just gets a free go at it.

We're not going to say, well, because I don't like Dave or Tom or Henry, we're going to get them because they're out of compliance.

And the rest of you guys, you know, you're fine.

No, everybody is judged on the same scale.

If you sign up for a tax abatement and you got the tax abatement and guess what?

Do what the tax abatement requires you to do and come back with the goods or else taxpayers, citizens deserve, you know, the money to come back into their pockets.

Development opportunity and enforcement.

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for being here.

Well thank you for having me.

Now, I want to start by just asking you, what qualifies you to be the next mayor of the city of South Bend?

Well, I believe that I did 20 years United States Army.

I retired.

So that's 20 years of leadership trained by the given to me by the United States government.

Right.

I have a passion to lead and I think and this time in South Bend is history.

It's time for that bold leadership.

I feel like that makes me qualified.

To say it's time for bold leadership.

What would you say is the most important issue facing this city right now?

I think the violence, the violent crimes that are happening and the school corporation.

I think if we lose our schools, we're going to lose the city.

So somehow we have to make bold steps to assist the school corporation to be successful, as well as work with our police force to decrease the violence in the city.

So let's dig into those two topics a little bit.

Of course, the mayor does not currently control the South Bend City schools.

So what is it that the mayor can do to help to attract more students to the school corporation and to strengthen those schools.

So the mayor doesn't have control over the South Bend School Corporation, but he has a strong influence.

Right.

And with that influence, we have to encourage South Bend schools to follow a path that is beneficial for the city and beneficial for the schools.

So one of those plans could be and nothing is taken off the table, but maybe trying to invest in students within South Bend schools.

With a and this is just a broad way of looking at it.

There are other cities that are practicing, creating some type of investment account in those students so that when they graduate, they have this investment account that they can use towards college so that we're not sending our students from South Bend schools to college just to get debt.

Those are certain types of programs that we could use here that I think would cause students to come back into the South Bend School Corporation.

Give that extra incentive.

And an extra incentive.

Yes.

Now, you mentioned crime, especially violent crime.

What do you think needs to change to bring those numbers down and make the city safer?

So I believe to help reduce crime.

I believe as a communities, it's going to take a community effort.

Right.

We can't just depend on our police department to solve a crime problem.

However, we need to band together as a community to show that this is our city and show that we love our city and that we're not going to stand by while individuals take put citizens in fear.

So we need to have those bold steps as a community to assist our officers so that we can bring the crime rate down.

What is your position on the Citizens Review Board as some citizens say, they have fear of the police.

So I've had the pleasure of going to the Citizens Police Academy.

So I've seen it has opened my eyes to things that the police deals with.

Right.

But I've also tried to walk a complaint.

We had a a citizen file, a complaint.

He had, He was by on video.

It seems that he was struck by an officer.

I walked the file.

I walked that complaint down.

I ask questions.

It was already interviewed by the IA.

It was passed off.

And as I walk through that process, as frustrating as it was, I was stonewalled.

Now, at that point, I asked, was there a second opinion that can be given?

And I was told that it wasn't.

There is no second opinions.

The officers get to make the final decision.

So to go back to your question about the Citizens Review Board for that particular situation, I believe a citizen review board would have been ideal so that we can get a second set of eyes to just make sure everybody is being transparent.

Right.

I don't doubt that officers did the right thing, but I do, as I spoke about that to the chief at the time, I explained to him that it makes no sense that if this officer, if we know about this complaint and then that officer does something else, we shouldn't have to hear about it after a mistake on the officer's part that he had X amount of complaints against, against him.

I think we're doing a disservice to the officer and the community.

So with that said, I am in support of the Community Review, The Citizens Review Board.

Yes.

And also resources for the police.

Resources for the police, resources diverted to other kinds of programs.

Both.

What do you think has to happen to bring that crime rate down?

So are you, not to put words in your mouth.

Are you asking, my support of defunding the police or.

Well that's certainly one of the slogans, but the broader sense of whether we need really more officers on the street and more technology or do we need more investment in certain kinds of social service programs, or is it really so?

I believe it is a I believe it's the community's responsibility to end the the slogan to defund the police.

Right.

If the community does what it takes to solve the problems within the community, then we don't need police to do overtime to do special units.

We wouldn't need that if the community could manage things that's going on in the community.

Right.

So I believe it takes a communit And if we're solving issues as a community, I believe we don't have to pay officers so much overtime, so much for special activities.

Right.

But if we don't do that, I believe we have to fund the police, however necessary, to make this a safer, safer city.

Now, there has not been a Republican mayor since the Democratic mayor of 1972.

The Democrats took the mayor's office and have held it since then.

What do you think will make it different this time?

Um, so Lloyd Allen was the last Republican mayor, and I'm hoping I'm saying his name correct.

Lloyd Allen right.

I believe that we're in a different time of South Bend's history that we're ready to try something new.

I believe that the Democrats as a whole has sold us on the idea that they are doing things better.

And I think the citizens want and deserve just another opportunity to try something different to see if we can make a difference.

So you say a lot of people seem to want something different.

And if you do, then try a different leadership.

Yes.

Okay.

Now, in terms of other issues, one of the things that all three candidates for mayor seem to agree on is the fact that there should be more development across all South Bend neighborhoods.

Do you feel like some neighborhoods have been neglected?

And if so, what would you do to try to strengthen and support those neighborhoods?

So I believe that South Bend, as a city not only has South Bend as a city practiced redlining, it was a a nationwide issue.

However, historically, we can pinpoint the implicit issues that we've done far as redlining within these cities.

I think to make amends for that wrongdoing, I believe that we need to invest.

We need to figure out a way to invest in those redline districts across South Bend.

So we talk about redlining just for viewers who may not be familiar with that.

You're talking about neighborhoods where it were primarily African-American neighborhoods and banks would not give mortgages and loans there.

And so people really couldn't develop that wealth.

Yes.

So that sounds a little like what Councilman Henry Davis has talked about in terms of reparations, not writing checks, but reinvesting in those neighborhoods where we know there was harm.

Is that fair to say?

Yes and no.

So reparations is a different terminology.

And do I believe South Bend should recognize reparations?

No, because the issues done to African-Americans was a nationwide issue.

I believe reparations is something that should come from the federal government.

And that is an issue that I think as African-Americans, we need to take up with the federal government, because as the United States as a whole benefited in that.

But as it comes to South Bend, the practice of redlining, we can really pinpoint the areas that was systematically de-invested in.

So if we know that, I believe to make amends with those citizens, no matter what color they were that was living in those areas, I believe we owe a fiduciary responsibility as a city to make amends for that.

And I believe for me, that is very different than reparations.

Yeah, And certainly people disagree about what that term means or what it what it looks like.

But you want that targeted investment to redress a grievance or not grievances about harms.

So in terms of crime, we've talked about in terms of neighborhoods, what about in terms of affordable housing?

What would you do?

That is a big problem.

As you know, many people who would be able to afford a mortgage in the past with inflation and with rising costs just cannot do so any more.

So what would you do to promote affordable housing in the city.

Now and this is very difficult is a different this is a difficult balancing act right?

When we say affordable housing, no one can put a number to affordable housing.

Right.

So affordable housing is very different across the board.

Do I believe we need more quality housing?

Absolutely.

We need to figure out a way to make more quality housing.

The problem becomes when you make more quality housing, taxes go up, right, Because it doesn't cost the same.

There's a tax increase that's going to occur.

And if someone is on a salary set, amount of money that they have coming in, then this may bump against that which could really cause gentrification.

We have to really come up with a solution that we can create quality housing and keep a neighborhood with individuals who really want to support their neighborhood.

That is a very difficult way of approaching it.

I don't have the answer today.

However, I'm willing to work with every neighborhood and every individual to try to solve this issue and to try to bring resources in so that we can make this happen.

But I don't I don't believe we need to stay handcuffed to ways of the past.

I think it's time to move towards the future.

So when you talk about quality housing, you're not necessarily talking about expensive housing.

What do you mean by that term?

Would it be for middle class, working class, all different brackets?

I think we need for all different brackets, but we need to reshape what we believe about housing.

Right.

So I believe we're talking different styles of housing.

I am aware of styles of housing that accommodates two styles of family, right.

You have the main house and then you have which is connected.

That one bed, one bedroom attached to it.

Right.

So that if you have up a family in here and then you have a college student, they really have a one bedroom house, one person attached to that.

The reason that is good is because if you don't have that college student now, we can a family can Airbnb this out and create extra income to accommodate.

This is not the solution.

However, these are just ideas that we can bring to the table.

So that we can re-envision what South Bend can look like.

So it sounds like part of your leadership style would be gathering as many stakeholders as possible and and listening to new ideas.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Now, what about when developers do come to this city but they don't deliver on their promises?

Maybe we as a city pay for upgrades for sewers we curbing.

We maybe give a tax abatement and then the developer doesn't follow through.

What should the city do to make sure that those promises really are fulfilled?

So I believe that we have to be very diligent about our follow up.

We need to hold these developer, these developers accountable, and we need a tier stepping method to where we don't give them all the money upfront or all the excess upfront.

We give them a portion.

We see if they're staying on course and you can get another portion, right.

But if they don't do what they said they're going to do.

We need the ability to have in the contract that they will refund the city and the taxpayers back all that money that was wasted if they don't hold to what they say they want to do.

What about people who are on the other side?

They're not a developer who's investing in building new properties, but they have no shelter at all.

We do see this problem in the city and the county.

There's been a big debate about the hotels for motels for now program, for example, of what to do with folks.

What is your solution?

So I am not for the motels for now.

I believe that homelessness is a is a serious issue here and we need to have serious discussions about how do we move forward.

That's going to take some hard conversations.

However, when we specifically about the motels for now, the motels for now sits in an area where the property value for individuals who live there has went down due to the fact that this is here.

Crime has picked up in those areas.

And while I have a heart for the homeless, I have to have a heart for the taxpayers as well.

Right.

This is their this is where they're putting their money.

This is where they are building their wealth.

And for me to place the motels for now in that location and tell taxpayers that we are not considering their generational wealth, that they are trying to build their homes, I think is disingenuous of the city to back a program like so without come in with hard solutions on what do we need to do as a whole.

So those people will have to go to some neighborhood.

It sounds like you're saying that would be one of the many discussions that you're open to having and ready to have.

Correct.

All right.

Well, unfortunately, that's all the time we have for now.

Thank you so much for being here.

Great to talk with you, Desmont Upchurch.

And good luck.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for watching this special election edition of Politically Speaking.

We want to thank our guests James Mueller, Henry Davis Jr., and Desmont Upchurch for sharing their priorities and platforms.

I'm Elizabeth Bennion reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work.

We'll see you next time.

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