Hello, and welcome to The Bookmark.

I'm Christine Brown, your host.

Today, my guests are Bobbie and Bill Allen, authors of "Riders in the Sky: Romancing the West with Music and Humor."

Thank you so much for being here today.

Thanks for having us.

I am so excited to talk about this.

Is it a fun book about a fun group?

I hope it was fun to write.

We're going to get into all of it.

But I want to ask you first to just introduce the book to us.

Well, it's a book about an art form that has virtually vanished from from American culture.

It was very common in the 1930s and 40s because of Hollywood.

That's when Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, the sons of the pioneers and Tex Ritter held sway in the American imagination.

They schooled generations of American youth on their version of the cowboy.

But then by the early to mid 50s, it just sort of faded from public view.

You can no longer hear he's singing Cowboys on the radio or jukeboxes or on the silver screen.

I think it was Rex Allen, wasn't it, that did the last Hollywood scene cowboy movie about 1954.

So.

But eventually along came this, group of men that we've gotten to know real well who resurrected the form, have found great success with it, and they brought this genre back.

And we're glad to, convey our impression of it.

We've.

It's been great fun getting to know these men.

Well, Bill already knew Doug Ranger.

Doug to the riders in the Sky fan base and audience and, but we did not really know the rest of the band.

And it's.

Yeah, it's been a a fun journey.

We've enjoyed working on books together.

This is our third book that we've done together.

In addition to being a great musician, guitar player, singer, Yodeling Green is also a historian and scholar of of singing cowboys.

So I first got to know him back in the 1960s, and it was pleasantly surprised, like everybody else was when we found out that he was such a superb musician and that he gave up, that they all gave up day jobs to do this, which at the time seemed highly unlikely that they could make a living, by by resurrecting this form and doing it minus, all of the apparatus of the country music industry in Nashville was a very independent, very independent.

They were not.

The industry was promoting their version of country music.

I guess you could say they were in Nashville, but not all of Nashville, except except for the Opry.

Oh, yes.

I mean, they they were they had been still on it today.

Yeah.

And that's been a big part of their careers.

But except for that live performance and they that's who they are.

They are real, genuine entertainers.

So how did this knowing of Doug and maybe interest in the, in the, in the band turn into wanting to write the book about it.

Well, as we finished our last book, which was a biography of the very first musician, Tim O'Brien, we started thinking about, well, what are we going to do next?

And we started toying with different subjects.

And, we liked the music of writers.

And this guy and I knew Doug Green.

So I said, why don't we do, a biography?

First of all, we decided, well, let's contact them and see if they're amenable to such a study.

And one of the reasons we were interested in writers, not just by being fans and appreciating what they've done to resurrect this form.

It was also this whole, idea of the West and that they'd been together as a band for the same amount of time we'd been married.

So, you know, the 48 years.

So that was something the fact that it's the same people doing that work.

So that was.

So we've been corresponding with Doug.

We were in the habit of exchanging holiday cards.

So in our card we wrote to him, my note.

I said, Doug, we're interested in writing your biography.

Would you be interested in having us do it?

We didn't get it in response.

So we just sort of put it out of mind until one night about the end of February when Doug called and he said, hey, guys, I just turned that Christmas card over.

Oh, you wrote a note on the back?

Yeah, I'd love it.

But it can't be about me because I'm not.

It's got to be about us.

Because I'm a I'm a writer.

This is here.

This is.

So that's how it happened.

We started getting contact information from him.

People that we should talk to, including the other members of the band, but family members and childhood friends.

And they.

Insulin was the same way.

So we really got to know them.

Yeah.

I wanted to talk about the research because you interviewed a lot of people.

I think we did over 100.

Right.

And family, friends, ex-wives, children I mean this is you got everybody there letter wives.

There are four guys 14 wives.

Yeah.

There's a lot of people to talk to you, but that that must have been very interesting to get all these different people from different.

Well, and the fact that we, you know, just talked about that they built it without the country music industry behind them.

How they built it with their fans.

So it was really important to talk to their fans.

And, and they kept in touch with them.

You know what?

They built their fan base one fan at a time.

So they were wonderful.

We really got some of the best stories from about yeah, about from the fans and the relationship they have with the audience and how they built those relationships.

When they started experimenting with this singing cowboy idea, they were not too far out of college, you know?

And so they did the first show there at Harry's Franks and Stein's, and they were just having fun and their humor was pretty risque.

It was aimed at college age people like themselves and young professionals.

And then they played at the Kentucky State Fair, and they found that there's a lot of children in the audience.

So they said, well, we better rethink this.

There is a whole nother audience we can appeal to.

And so they started changing their their humor, less X-rated.

And they found that there was a whole family, wasn't just individuals who were could be wanted.

This music was entire families from from grandpa and grandma who remember video singing Cowboys with Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, but also their children and grandchildren who could be won over not just with music, but with humor above all.

And last night when we were signing books with the writers, it was amazing.

I said, you know, who would you like me to sign your name?

And some of them said, yes, and we would like you to sign it to our, you know, papa or to, you know, my mom and mom and, and with their career being so long, some of those children may be parents and grandparents now.

So it's it's been multi-generational for multiple years, right.

They they have always had a wide audience.

They've always had a wide on it.

And they continue to have they get they're getting new ones all the time.

You're young ones all the time too.

So because we they had an Oprah show last night here on campus, there were some students that who were working and I saw after the show, they're buying books and they're buying the tie and they're, you know, these, these, these young people are getting hooked into.

It's very infectious.

You know, we took our our son to see a show of theirs.

And again, not so long ago and I think we talked about them but they he was just and this is not his kind of music at all.

He was so thrilled with them.

It just couldn't get couldn't get over their humor and their alacrity.

You know, they are entertainers above all.

Yeah.

I think what I wanted to say was that they're not a band.

I mean, they're a good band.

That's that's baseline.

But when you go see a writers, you see them perform, you're seeing a show, you're getting comedy, you're getting music, you're getting a variety show, almost.

There's a costume change.

It's it's a it's a whole show.

When we've said that their CDs are souvenirs to remember this great experience, but they're they don't to be expected.

They they are to be experienced as a show.

Absolutely.

I had not seen I had read the book and I've seen clips online and things, but even just seeing a clip on YouTube is not the same as seeing their show, because what they do is special.

Every night they change it up.

They say different things.

They tailor it to their local.

They are performers for their the audience that's in front of them and they're excellent.

You know, a Joey, the Cowpoke, a King and Woody, they're fiddler or just.

And who fiddled with them on the road?

They they're master musicians, so they change up their.

They don't do the same breaks even.

Everything is creative, which is what.

And they turn each other on and surprise each other on stage.

So it's all new for them.

Every night, too.

So it keeps them engaged with it.

They are is engaged with what they do as the audience is engaged with them.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So, let's talk about a couple of the members, just in case people aren't familiar with with the makeup of the band, can you you've talked about Ranger Dog a little bit, but, they're also super educated.

These guys have PhDs and master's degrees.

They are they are they are Renaissance men, and they always.

And big readers, we we had, we had lunch with them today and talked about, you know, their recommendations for books and their they're they're good readers.

I think, Doug's done all the, with all the best books.

What are those current 500 or 1000, but whatever.

But oh, the lists of, like, lists.

You have to write.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

You know, one of those lists you should read before you die?

He's already done that.

And they have the fiddler Woody Paul, who no longer travels with them, but he's a Ph.D.

in plasma physics from M.I.T., M.I.T.. Doug has a master of, literature from Vanderbilt.

And he came to Vanderbilt because he wanted to be close to the music, action.

I don't think his family always understood that.

Well, he said his father got, you know, he he knew he was going to get a master's degree, and that's what his father was interested in.

But that's why he's in Nashville.

Too Slim, Fred Laborde, a B.A.

in Environmental Science, I guess the only one who doesn't have a university degree is, Joey.

But Joey, he's learned on the road.

He's been playing music since he was 11 years old.

They've been on the road for new album since he was 13.

And so?

So he calls himself a road scholar, which he is, and and a brilliant, brilliant, music theorist and player and arranger.

He's arranged a lot of music for a lot of people.

He was he was a, a Nashville cat.

And.

Well, that's a good thing to mention to two of the members.

They're not from they're from Wisconsin.

They're not from Michigan.

They're from up north.

They are.

You wouldn't think that these cowboys would know.

And Joey- - -Grand Rapids, - -Joey was talking about the Brazos last night, but I said, "Really, it's the Chicago River of here.

Yeah, he's from Chicago and Woody's from Tennessee.

So he's the only person that has, he's in the greater Nashville from the greater Nashville area.

But he's got a small town and the three year old background, we're we're here last night through three, close to being the original members, all grew up watching kiddy shows on Saturday, you know, cowboys coming up and reading stories to the to the kids and and doing a couple of songs with local songs.

And so that that's an influence that's often overlooked just how important that was.

And shaping the musical taste in the absolute America's children.

Absolutely.

And also they they had somewhat musical families.

Their mothers like to sing or their uncle play the guitar.

They, they maybe they, their parents did want them to go into that as a career, but it certainly was around in their child.

Right?

Very much so.

I think Joey probably is the only person the, you know, Joey, the Rhodes Schol whose family really pushed he he wanted to play music and wanted to play the accordion, and they really encouraged that.

And the others who played for their kids to go into some respectable club, right.

They they weren't getting those masters and PhDs in order to play music.

Absolutely, absolutely.

I also like that, that Michigan connection is kind of one of the reasons that the band even started.

Yeah, because they're both living in Nashville.

They they I mean, it's really funny.

Doug's a couple of years ahead of Fred at the University of Michigan.

They lived down the street from each other, never met.

Of course, it's a big campus like Texas A&M.

Not this big.

And, it's any campus.

But, they didn't meet until they were neighbors in Nashville.

And, Doug had on a Detroit Tigers cap and was tossing a softball with his problems to his young toddler daughters who were not touch it back.

And, and, Fred had moved next door.

And so the the Detroit Tigers had a cap, and they started talking and one thing led to another.

So that's so rare.

Yeah.

50 years later, here we are talking about the band.

They started it.

This is a good lesson to talk to your neighbors.

You never know who you'll meet.

And, and what you'll what you'll do together.

I think that's that's fantastic.

We talked about that humor a little bit.

I think that's so important to their act.

Can you talk about how that, like, they kind of grew, you know, the humor with the music.

And I think that might be part of why they have staying power, too, is that it's not just a musical act.

It's a it's like we said, it's a show that was orderly, integrated.

Yeah.

Tit for it.

The class clown.

Yes.

He said, he said the first time somebody left it and it might ha I can't make mine sound.

But it.

He said the first time someone laughed and about fourth grade he thought, this is it, I like this.

Then they started picking up humor from from television.

Oh.

The Borscht Belt comedians, Mad Magazine, man, they all, mad magazine, a lot of credit.

So you combine that with the sidekicks of cowboy movies?

It's quite an unusual blend of humor there.

Yeah.

And one of their fans who we talked to, Karen Joy Condon, said when we interviewed her, she said, I hope you talk.

I really am so wanting to communicate about how their humor is so integrated into their act.

And she said, I'd like to I'll just send you a little piece about that.

So I get an we get an essay like a 20 page essay.

So, you know, and and she's a good writer.

I think she'd been a journalist and I, I called her and I said, well, all I text texted or emailed and I said, how, where was this published?

You know, where did you submit this essay so I can credit it.

She said, I know I wrote it for you, I wrote it so you wouldn't have to do it.

I was trying to explain this and I couldn't do that in a phone interview.

So I just wrote it so you'd have it.

Of course.

That's another example of the loyalty factor, the dimension of loyalty.

You know, a lot of them, like Karen Joy, are also manning their merch tables at a concert or following them around the country.

I mean, it's their fans or, you know, there were Deadheads and their writers heads, and there was no other group in cowboy music history that had that kind of blend, blend.

You go back and watch Gene Autry movies or sons of the pioneers or any of them.

They had humor.

They often had a sidekick.

They did a comic gig, but they didn't blend comedy into their act from beginning to end, like the writers do.

You know, they Too Slim does that side meet.

But that's that's in addition to all that other humor I made that I also I also think you make a great point of spelling this out in the book, but if you see him, I think you also get it.

They're making jokes, but they're they're not making fun.

They're they're kind of poking because they coming out of a place of love.

It is they're they're satirizing or they're sending up, but they're it's not mean spirited.

They're not looking.

They, they they love that.

Yes.

And they create it's their respect and their joy in it.

And they're kind of refreshing it and adding their own take on it.

take on it.

But it's not with any kind of, there is was this corny, you know, or outfit's corny nut with their fun.

And I think that everyone gets into that.

They embrace their audience.

So the audience is into the act, know they're shouting back.

Yes, it's a very it's a very interactive show.

Yes, it's a very it's a very interactive show.

I want to make sure we we're there's a lot of we can't talk about.

So there's so much history here in the 70s and the 80s and early 90s, what they do, where they go and all that.

But, I want to make sure we cover maybe we're a lot of people have heard of or were first introduced to the writers was in the late 90s, when Pixar came calling.

Can you talk about that?

Well, they, you know, there was Toy Story 2, and Randy Newman had written this wonderful song, "You Have a Friend In Me," and they were talking about that Randy Newman's voice couldn't communicate what they needed in the in the movie.

They needed kiddy-sounding... They need a cowboy singers, cowboy singers that were fun.

And one of the people in Pixar knew about the writers.

He had gone out with them.

He knew about them.

So he said, you, we, we, I know the group that can do this.

And that was, almost like, being on the Opry early, being discovered on, on public television in a to a national audience with Austin City Limits.

This was the and this to a real breakthrough.

So another generation of people and then they wrote two Grammy albums for Disney.

Yes.

two Grammy albums for Disney.

Yes.

I wanted they had a companion album, all for the Toy Story and then Monsters, Inc., which also had some Aggie connections.

Yeah, we all are big fans of that.

Yeah.

So now I'm a huge Pixar fan.

So I knew about we knew about them.

We don't even need to take kids to go to those movies.

Sweet.

I just love that those graphics, it's so clever.

They're gorgeous movies.

Yeah.

So.

So that brought him.

Yeah.

Again to a that's probably when people might might like my sister, my little sister, their age group, that's where they were introduced to Riders.

Right.

And that built another audience too, because they began playing more with symphonies after that.

Yes.

And they got to play it, at the Hollywood Bowl because it's their favorite experience, you know, as a musical experience was huge for them.

So yes, So yes, they've yeah, they've played your cover in the book, but they've played all over the continental US, plus Alaska, every conceivable venue from grade schools through universities and presidential inaugurations, baby showers, weddings.

You know, we, we have a physician.

He's now retired, but he was very interested in whatever we were doing.

So we asked Bill, what's which which your next project?

And Bill said, have you ever heard of the cowboy group Riders in the Sky?

And he said, they sang at my wedding.

And so we interviewed him and his wife.

They came over, they brought their wedding album with this one bad snapshot of these three guys who look like it, they.

Because they had just started.

That was in their X-rated days, but they were the wedding entertainment and so you know just back that kind of story.

Oh that's that's a good point.

I would like to talk about their look because it's the late 70s.

They're men of their time.

They're not looking like like what they look like.

Now on the cover of the book.

How did their look evolve as they were going.

Well when they could afford it.

Their look got better.

Residents in California.

They they had Ranger Doug, always even from the beginning, he wanted to look like a the, rancher the proper.

He's the straight man.

So, he like those bib kind of, cowboy shirts at the beginning.

And of course, Too Slim being the comedian had to have the most elaborate and exaggeratedly funny outfit and Woody like fringe.

So that when he was, playing the fiddle, all of that fringe would move on his arm and chest.

And so they they, as they could afford better outfits, they got him and Manuel Cuevas, one of the great cowboy and, continues, the customers did a lot of their, a lot of their work for them.

And, and, Too Slim's wife, Roberta helped, you know, got into the design process and she had a backstage experience.

She had those experiences professionally.

And that's where the tie came, too.

The Cac-tie.

Somebody had a cact- One of the guys had a tie that wasn't cloth.

It was a cactus.

And then Roberta developed it and a jacket for it.

Or, I don't remember this exact story, but then she she perfected that design, and she worked with some of the other people and creating wearable merch and, and now people can buy it.

and creating wearable merch and, and now people can buy it.

You can.

It looks just like Slim with your own cac-tie.

And they are still I mean, they're performing as we've mentioned, but they're also you can catch them at the Grand Old Opry.

And if you can't be there, they do broadcast that on on the radio.

And they also have a Sirius XM show.

Right.

And to make sure we mention that the classic Cowboy Corral, where, that, actually Too Slim and Doug do it, but, Joey produces it.

Doug takes the straight role of a historian.

Right.

And Slim is the disruptor.

It is with the way.

Yeah.

With gibberish.

Well, I, I kind of that's what.

That's what Bill and I do.

I'm the I'm the sidekick cause Joe is producing, so.

Yeah.

So and they play all of that.

They're interested in preserving those classic cowboy songs.

And since, as Bill said, Doug's a historian of he's written a book called On Singing Cowboys.

So that's what they introduced to that.

So they I think it's Friday night, Saturday night and Sundays.

They have, every weekend you can you can hear them once.

You can really just relax.

Yeah.

That's exactly.

Well, unfortunately we're running low on time here.

So in our final minute, what do you hope people take away from this book?

Well, it's hope they have a memory and an appreciation of this moment in American popular culture and how much and have the writers have created that moment themselves?

They are.

They've really inspired other cowboy acts.

They, particularly out West, particularly in the West and the oh, those cowboy, poetry gatherings.

Oh, yes.

That's all it's really, really been.

It's.

But, you know, they came along sort of coincidentally, but they, they've combined that and there's, in fact, we... K.G.

and the Ranger are a couple of... a man and wife team from Madison that were thought they gave up their day jobs.

The following those footsteps, and used a lot of that shtick to create their own folk cowboy act.

So, yes, there are people that are.

It's great to see that there and that they're still having fun.

Nearly a half century later I think this was so important to to get this down there.

Legacy is important because what they did it seems funny and fun and yes it is but but they brought an art form back that was maybe dying, maybe would have gone to the wayside if they hadn't revived it and preserved it.

And now we have almost 50 years of their legacy.

And as you say, they're inspiring others to to keep, to pass the baton, to keep it going.

And in this particular political moment that we're in with things that are so fraught, it's so important to remember that there's humor and joy and beauty.

There's we can all laugh together and enjoy something exactly.

Yeah, I absolutely why we can't top that.

So let's leave it there.

Okay.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for visiting with me.

I really appreciate that.

Thank.

The book again, is "Riders in the Sky" by Bobbie and Bill Malone.

Thank you so much for joining us and I will see you again soon.