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♪ opening music ♪ ♪ <Amanda> Well, good evening, and welcome to Making It Grow.

We're so glad that you can join us on this Tuesday night.

I'm Amanda McNulty and I'm a Clemson Extension agent.

And I get to come over here and learn.

It's just continuing education all the time, especially as I've gotten the point where I forget half the stuff I use to know.

And we have a, I think a tremendous and exciting thing that we're going to tell you about as our segment later on, which is rivercane.

So do stay tuned and pay close attention.

I just found it absolutely fascinating.

And I'm just delighted that Terasa Lott can come and be with us.

And Terasa does so much for us.

She does, oh, every day I think you put a picture on Facebook.

I don't know how you can come up with so many beautiful things.

<Terasa> I try.

I mean, we try to keep the content fresh and exciting.

So people will want to revisit the page.

But luckily we have good content on H.G.I.C.

so I can share from there.

And I try to take photos in my yard as well.

<Amanda> And Barbara Smith does such a lovely job.

Doesn't she, though?

<Yes> And I think if... <Terasa> In fact, I think she's, was a national finalist for one of her photographs with the National Association of County Agricultural Agents.

<Amanda> Isn't that wonderful?

And I think they're usually, is it Friday when she puts those out?

The gardens, the pictures normally from the botanical garden?

<Terasa> I'm not sure.

But they come out weekly.

Yes.

<Amanda> Yeah.

But if you don't check with the, with the Home and Garden Information Center, they have posts frequently and Barbara, usually just since wonderful pictures often taken from there.

It's a pretty, it's our state botanical garden.

<Um hum> And Phillip, currently you said that you grew up going down to Florida and working on your grandparents farm?

Yes, ma'am.

Both sets of grandparents were farmers down in the northern panhandle of Florida.

And that's kind of how I got my start in agriculture.

<Amanda> Now werem't there some cowboys down in the panhandle?

<Phillip> Yes, ma'am.

Quite a few actually.

There several large cattle outfits down there.

<Amanda> You weren't rustling cows?

<Phillip> No, ma'am.

No, ma'am.

Mainly fruits and vegetables.

<Amanda> Fruits and vegetables.

Oh!

So the fact that you are now a vegetable, you're the vegetable horticulture agent for Orangeburg and Calhoun makes sense because you grew up growing vegetables.

<Phillip> It dovetailed in quite nicely.

<Amanda> I'm so glad.

Because before that, you were doing ornamentals, I think.

<Yes, ma'am> Okay.

Well, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

And Davis Sanders.

I wish she'd been here on Fourth of July.

We would have gotten you to sing for us because you have a wonderful voice.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

We'll have to come up with a song for you to sing for us next time you're coming.

Now, I'm not a soloist.

I'm not a soloist.

I'm an ensemble singer.

<Okay> And Terasa has hidden talents.

<Terasa> I was part of concert choir in college.

I thoroughly enjoy singing, but I don't know if I'll make my debut on Making It Grow.

< laughs > <Amanda> Y'all can do something together.

How about that?

< laughs > Do it.

That would be fun.

Yeah, let's, let's just do that next time.

Anyway, you're at South Pleasantburg Nursery, which has been a nursery in Greenville for a long, long time.

<Davis> Yes, the original owner, Ed Sanders opened a small nursery on the street corner just above where we stand now in 1965 and proceeded to fill in the the area just down the hill.

When he got the got the land graded and filled, moved down the hill in 1967.

So we're, we're in our 55th year in our exact location, but the nursery has been there since 1965.

<Amanda> Well, it's kind of a slope there.

Is it hard to see you or have y'all made it easy to find you?

<Davis> Well, it used to be hard because we had a lot of trees and just all sorts of things that have been planted along the bank for years and we cleared all that off probably four or five years ago and opened up the Vista and every day we have people pull into the nursery and say they've been driving past us for 30 years and never stopped and once they get in, they realized we've got nine and a half acres of trees, shrubs, annuals, perennials and related items there.

<Amanda> All kinds of stuff.

<Um hum> Well, what did y'all do to stabilize the bank when you did that?

<Davis> Well, evidently, he just brought in a lot of, a lot of fill and built it up.

Actually part of the old Greenville City Hall is underneath our, our shrub beds somewhere there.

I think they're junk cars under there.

It's amazing.

< laughs > <Amanda> But everything's holding holding tight.

<Davis> Um hum.

Now we haven't, we haven't had the property flood since we've been open, so.

<Amanda> Wonderful.

We're so glad that you could come down and share some of the wonderful things that y'all have.

<Davis> Well thanks for having us.

<Amanda> Well, Terasa, um, people sometimes send pictures in to Teresa, T E R A S A @clemson.edu.

And you select randomly gardens, spotlight gardens.

Gardens of the Week.

We start with Garden of the Week.

<We do> Yeah, we have so many gardens.

It's just hard to it's hard to keep track.

< laughs > It's been a wonderful addition to the show.

I love seeing all the submissions that come in through the various channels.

Some come to Facebook to the actual page, through messenger.

Sometimes people send me texts and I'll take them how ever I get them.

We begin with Clay and Cindy Williams who shared an old wheelbarrow of flowers that look happy after some good rain.

From the Scott Tribe, Madison, Jason, Allyson and Mason.

They participate in the 4-H Small Garden Project and they sent us a picture of to squash fruit that look heart shaped.

< laughs > We also have a pollinator at work.

If you look very carefully, you can see the pollen on that bee.

And then finally we finished with Candice Turkaly who sent us a sunflower from the Elmwood Park neighborhood in Columbia.

So thanks for sharing your photos.

They are selected at random as Amanda mentioned.

So don't be shy.

Send us when we make a call for photos.

You should see me post on our Facebook page, and that'll be your cue to send your photos.

Do please hold your camera sideways.

So we get a nice long picture that fills up the screen.

Otherwise, the photographs that are taken vertically or portrait they look very small.

So we want to show off your handiwork.

<Amanda> And Elmwood was one of the first subdivisions of Columbia and went through some hard times.

And now everybody wants to live there.

And it's right near Elmwood Cemetery, which is where all of my people are.

<Aw> yeah.

Well, that's okay.

I like to go there.

Yeah, I mean, I can go see, go see everybody, including the person from whom, for whom I was named Amanda Caldwell Blakely.

How about that?

It's kind of fun to get to do that.

<Yeah> And you're getting ready, I think, to take a trip back to visit some family members as well.

Because your mother, your grandmother was from England.

Y'all ended up, your grandfather, I guess was from upstate New York?

<Terasa> That is correct.

Yes.

So excited to go back and get a chance to reunite with family.

I guess you wouldn't say all over the U.S. Mostly the eastern United States.

But it's, sometimes it's fun to visit, we were talking about the cemetery.

Sometimes it's fun to visit.

I know that might sound kind of strange, but you can just feel like you're getting a glimpse into history.

I like to look at the dates and the organization of how the stones are put together.

<Amanda> Okay.

Well, do you have a question that we might start off with?

<Terasa> I do.

You know, people are often concerned about using pesticides and want to make sure they're being safe and responsible.

So this question comes from Linda in Barnwell.

She said is vinegar bad for the soil?

What about vinegar based weed killer?

<Amanda> Hmm.

Well, Phillip, I've heard some people just take the vinegar out of the kitchen that you normally put on the salad.

But what's the story of vinegar as a herbicide?

Is there one that's actually labeled for that purpose?

And should you, is there any better than some of the other things and what about just straight kitchen vinegar?

<Phillip> Well, Amanda there are several products that are acetic acid based, oh, which is vinegar.

Now they do differ from your tabletop vinegar.

They're usually anywhere between two to four times stronger.

<Ooh> Whereas your tabletop vinegar is usually about a five percent concentration, these range 10 to 20.

<Oh> Now, vinegar as as an herbicide can be effective.

It does take multiple treatments, usually anywhere between two to four and it's and spacing and type of weed is very variable between applications.

Now with that said, it does only affect the above ground portions of these plants and weeds.

So you're not going to get full control.

<Amanda> But there's such a process that herbicides go through before they're released, especially the ones that we can buy without, homeowners can buy without a license.

And when you follow the directions, I feel like, personally, I feel like they're safe.

And when you follow the directions, and when, you know.

<Phillip> When you do follow the directions, most chemicals are safe.

And that's the key is to follow the directions, read the label, makes sure that you are wearing your proper P.P.E.

<Yes> because as we say, at Clemson and elsewhere at the land grant universities, the label is law.

And if you've ever attended a pesticide class or course or training, you will get tired of hearing that phrase, but it's, it's federal law.

<Amanda> So, um, really, I guess, people if they want to use this super strength acetic acid that's labeled for that purpose, I think it actually has a more stringent label.

<Phillip> It does.

Some of the labeling on it can be, is very different than traditional chemical herbicides.

I haven't looked at the label in quite a long while so I'm not sure what the signal word.

<Amanda> What's the, what's the least one that's on there.

<Caution> And then it goes to <Danger> Danger.

<Phillip> And that one is one that you really need to look at.

<Okay> And vinegar is a caustic substance so you need to be very careful and make sure that you are wearing your proper protective gear, your gloves, close toed shoes.

<Amanda> If you've just got to cut on your hand and you get a little salad dressing vinegar on it stings so <Right> the other one I bet would really tear you up.

Thanks for that information.

Well, flowers flowers, flowers from South Pleasantburg Nursery.

<Davis> What I brought along here since we are in the heat of summer, is I actually bought some plants that the hotter it gets, the happier they are.

These first four that I'm setting up here are Angelonia which are also often known as Summer Snapdragons.

It cannot get too hot for this plant and it can't get to sunny for it.

<Amanda> Move them up a little bit so they can see your handsome beard and haircut that you got before you came down.

<Davis> Okay, okay.

Thank you.

They, I have actually tried to grow these in my backyard.

And the first time I tried them I had them on the back steps which are in the summertime get sun from noon until sunset, and they didn't bloom.

I moved them out next to the driveway where the sun started striking on about 10 o'clock, they came in to bloom and bloomed the rest of the summer.

They need full sun and the hotter it gets, the heavier they bloom.

<Amanda> Where are they from?

<Davis> I'm really not sure to be honest with you.

<Amanda> Someplace hot.

<Davis> Well, most, most hot weather annuals are from more, more Southern climates, either Central Africa, Central America.

I'm really not sure what the origin of this plan is.

<Amanda> Do they have a long bloom period?

<Davis> They will come into bloom once the nighttime temperatures are staying above about 45 to 48 degrees and they will bloom all the way up to the first, first hard frost.

<do they?> Um hum.

A little bit of deadheading or just a significant cutback couple of times during the growing season will cause them to flush back out and rebloom.

<Amanda> Well the colors are just wonderful, aren't they?

<Davis> They really are.

They also come in shades of pink and mauve.

These just happened to be the best looking specimens I had at the nursery.

<Amanda> Oh, that's what we expect you to bring down and show us.

But, like you say, if they do get a little leggy all you got to do is, is cut them back and they'll just flush right back out.

<Exactly> Okay.

<Davis> I've also got a couple of others here which I brought for a particular reason.

The first one is the Portulaca.

Most of our viewers are going to be familiar with this one as a, an extremely drought tolerant low water need annual which the flowers open and close with the light.

This morning when I took these, when I put these in the truck to bring them down here, the flowers were this bright orange with just a little bit of yellow center.

The blooms on this particular one are about an inch and a half to two inches across a little bit bigger, much bigger than most Portulacas.

But after bringing it in here, as soon as it was out in the sunlight, these pretty blooms just closed up.

<Amanda> And then if you take it back outside.

So we should have run it out for a minute and had somebody run out then bring it back for us.

<Davis> And I didn't even think about that.

<Amanda> That would have been kind of fun.

But it takes good heat.

<Davis> Um hum and here again this is, this is a good one for, for walkways or hanging baskets <It'll be nice> any kind of, any kind of container where it can really hang down and show off.

But, this is another one that it just can't get too hot for.

< laughs > <Amanda> Not a relative of mine because it sure gets too hot for me.

Exactly.

This one, this one this one is Gazania or Treasure Flower.

It's called Treasure Flower, <Gazania> Gazania G A Z A N I A.

This one is also very heat tolerant.

This one if I'm not mistaken is an African native <Amanda> Its got a lovely center.

<Davis> It really does and they do come in multiple colors reds, pinks, whites, orange, yellow.

There are even some awesome purple hued ones.

But this is another one that closes up when the sun goes off, goes away from it and as soon as the sun strikes and again it opens back up.

These blooms were about three inches apart across when I brought 'em inside the studio today.

<Amanda> But the color is just wonderful in this.

<Davis> One caution I will, I will offer with this one.

Rabbits love that flower.

So if you're going to plant Gazania get some rabbit repellent.

<Amanda> Oh Is there a rabbit repellent.

<Davis> Oh yeah, yeah.

There, there are a number of them.

there are some some are actually mild fungicides, such as Thiram.

Thiram is a very bitter tasting product.

They don't like that.

You can use a lot of the commercially prepared animal repellents usually consist of castor oil, mint oil, clove oil and putrescent egg solids.

< laughs > <Amanda> I'll just use my imagination.

< laughs > <Davis> The scent is almost like salad dressing on most of them.

But since our noses are not as, our sense of smell isn't as acute as that of a rabbit or a vole, we don't really notice it, but to sprinkle some of that around one of these and the rabbits will go to the neighbor's yard.

<Amanda> Thank you so much for telling me that.

That's a lot of fun to know.

Okay.

<Terasa> I've been using purslane in my mailbox planter.

We talked about it last summer.

You know, it's such a small volume of soil.

<Amanada> You said you got a restricted space, don't you?

<Terasa> Yeah, but the mailbox post itself is actually, was actually built with a planter opposite the mailbox.

But as you can imagine, it doesn't hold much soil so dry it gets very hot and it dries out really quickly.

So, the purslane seem to do very well in there.

I don't really do anything to them.

They pretty much take whatever nature gives them.

<Really> Every now and then if I think, oh, it's been dry and maybe I should go water... <Amanda> But there the other day when it's... <Terasa> Not like other containers.

It's really nice but they do.They are pretty prolific seeders so sometimes you might want to watch out for that.

I appreciate volunteers, but some people don't.

<Amanda> So what color are the ones that you have?

<Terasa> It is a pink with like a yellow stripe or a yellow with a pink stripe.

I'm not sure what it's called, but it's very pretty.

<Amanda> Okay.

Fun.

Well, have you got a spotlight garden?

We do have a spotlight garden.

It is coming in from Greer, South Carolina and that is Virginia Kirwan, she said that she and her husband love Making It Grow and learn something new every week.

<Amanda> Well, thank y'all so much.

That's because we have people like y'all.

<laughs> <Amanda> Well, the panelists anyway.

Pictures one and two show a flock of goldfinches that she says visit the mixed water garden every day to feast on the seeds from the Echinacea, the Rudbeckia and the Liatris.

<Amanda> That's a good reason to leave those up.

And not dead head right.

<Terasa> Yes, an excuse to be a messy gardener.

She has a photograph in, she says she loves the contrast of the flowers with the new blue growth on the Blue Spruce Baby Blue Eyes.

She also has a combination of white coneflower and Veronica called Roman Candles that she says is a cool break from hot summer colors.

We also see a picture of her beautiful Crinum Lily next to some first year hollyhocks and we finish up with everyone's favorite, tomatoes.

Cherry tomatoes.

These are the sweet million and she says they are beautiful and prolific in the raised, she's got like a stock tank that she's got them in.

So thanks, Virginia.

It was wonderful to see a picture of your yard and we wish you much success and are grateful that you and your husband watched the show.

<Amanda> That was just lovely.

I really enjoyed that.

But I had heard that sometimes these blue foliage, spruces had a little bit of trouble in our heat.

What's been your experience with them Davis?

<Davis> Well, it's not it's not only the blue foliage spruces.

Spruces in general tend to be more of an Alpine type plant something that needs a milder summer and very cold winters.

The Colorado blue spruce is a very popular plant and a lot of nurseries, <Amanda> It's very attractive.

Because there are plant enthusiasts out there that want to try to grow one and if you can create the proper microclimate for it, you can have a modicum of success.

Don't plant it near asphalt, something that's going to be black and retain a lot of heat during the summer months, planting it near a reflective surface or even concrete that's not going to absorb heat during the summer.

And our experience is also that the some of the lower growing dwarf or mounting types like the globosa blue spruce that shade their own roots pretty quickly from a very young age tend to tend to get established and perform better here.

It's not something that's going to live for 200 years like they would in in Colorado or up on Mount Mitchell.

But, but it can be pretty rewarding and and good opportunity for for a plant hobbyists to try their hand at creating a microclimate to get something to grow here.

<Amanda> That's a good idea.

Thank you.

Alrighty.

Well, Terasa, what can, whom can we try to help now?

<Terasa> Hopefully we can help Lisa who's having a fruit problem?

Lisa shared some photos and said can you tell me why my normally healthy thornless blackberry vines and fruit are slowly going to shriveled, dried up fruit and yellowish leaves with red spots.

The vines are about four years old.

The abnormal fruit and growth started at one end of the vines on the fence and seems to be heading to the other end which is healthy for now.

At first I thought it was a small brown bug which suck the juice out of my tomato plants last year.

probably leaf footed bugs.

But I've only seen a few of those initially and not recently.

So, hum.

<Amanda> Oh goodness.

Well, I hate that they are losing those wonderful blackberries.

Philip, do you have any idea what may be going on here?

Well, Blackberry tends to respond to environmental factors.

Like a, too much sunlight can cause shriveling of berries.

<Really> Yes.

Usually in the wild if you're familiar if you've ever picked blackberries in the wild as a kid or a child they form a bramble thicket.

So these berries are usually fairly shaded <Amanda> And by their own leaves.

<Phillip> Correct.

So Sun can cause berry shriveling, as can various piercing and sucking insects, leaf footed bug.

And, and a lack of moisture as well can cause those barriers to shrivel.

<Amanda> Oh.

And we've had such funny things.

Sometimes its goes forever without raining and then sometimes, <Phillip> It's fluctuated quite a bit.

And we went from very hot and dried to an abundance of moisture every evening and cooler temperature.

<Amanda> And of course, it's so much easier to pick 'em if they're on the fence.

But so do you have any suggestions?

<Phillip> As far as trellising goes, there are several different trellising methods, the one in the picture is actually a very good method for the homeowner.

If you're in a commercial setting, which is what we see, or what I see a lot more of, there's usually a lot of high tensile wire and T posts used to in a V formation to kind of hold these vines up to where they're easier to be picked.

Now, as far as the spotting goes on the leaves, without being able to see it clearly in the picture.

It could be rust, which is a very common fungal infection, and certain species, or varieties or cultivars of blackberry.

But in order for, to diagnose that you need to take a sample in and have it sent off to the plant, <Amanda> So take it into your local extension office.

And I always tell people that if they go send them off, to call and be sure if somebody's gonna be there to take it.

And then because sometimes there may not be somebody there when you get there, they might have had to run to the bank or something.

And also, I usually take them earlier in the week so that it can get up there and not sit there over the weekend.

What do you think?

<Phillip> Right?

Early in the week, Monday to Tuesday are the best two days.

That way that the sample has time to be shipped and received by the lab.

And it's not sitting in transit over the weekend.

Okay, thank you so much.

Harriet Brown, was talking to me one time about Bartrams description of rivercane when it was exploding.

And I didn't know anything about rivercane and I thought oh, bamboos just a horrible problem.

But this is a native bamboo.

And this is a wonderful story.

And we want to thank all the people who helped us bring this story to you about rivercane, our native bamboo.

♪ We're in the Sumter National Forest and I'm speaking with Nicole Hayler who is the director of the Chattooga Conservancy.

And what is the Chattooga Conservancy?

Chattooga Conservancy is a nonprofit organization whose mission it is to protect, promote and and restore the Chattooga River watershed.

<Amanda> Okay, and is this the Chattooga River right here?

<Nicole> It certainly is.

This is section two of the Chattooga River running wild and free and that is the West Fork of the Chattooga, one of the main tributaries.

<Amanda> And we are standing, amongst the reason we came up today, which is something I've just started to learn about, which is our native bamboo, <Nicole> Native river cane, and we're in the midst of a native cane restoration project in cooperation with the Andrew Pickens Ranger District of the Sumter National Forest and project partner revitalization of traditional Cherokee artisan resources and Eastern Band of the Cherokee Indians to try and recreate 29 acres of native river cane habitat, which is one of the most endangered ecosystems in the southeast.

<Amanda> But there used to be 10 million acres <Nicole> Not anymore.

It's been due to agricultural uses and just general development in the southeast, there's not much of it left.

<Amanda> Okay.

And so y'all have gotten funding and partners to try to restore 29 acres and which you know, if you're thinking about planting corn and soybeans and things like that sounds very minor, but this is a delicate thing to deal with.

<Nicole> Yes, it is.

The science of restoring river cane habitat is still largely unknown.

There a lot of people studying various aspects of it from soil conditions, to the use of prescribed fire, to how to transplant it and different materials higher quality cane to transplant versus lower quality cane to transplant.

So there's really a lot of unknown out there.

So we're having a go at it right here.

<Amanda> And we know that if we look over this way, we know that there was at one time a village of Cherokee people who probably came in and use this all the time.

<Nicole> Absolutely.

That's one reason why we were drawn to this area for the project is there's existing cane right here next to the Chattooga River and there was probably quite a bit more at one time.

And most Cherokee Indian villages in the Chattooga watershed, they are known where they were and a lot of times you'll find a nice standard native cane or some population of native cane next to the Indian village because they use it for a lot of cultural and practical purposes like basket weaving and so forth.

<Amanda> And this site was called the, it had a name?

<Nicole> Chattooga Old Town.

<Amanda>Chattooga Old Town.<Yes> Well, thank you so much for bringing me out here and I'd like to come back and learn more about this and I am going to speak with some other people that came today who are studying different aspects of river cane.

<Thanks> ♪ Robert, you are a forest ecologist among many other things, and we're in a pretty nice stand of river cane.

I've read things about when you were a little boy just getting lost in it.

But tell me about river cane and its history, in our continent, please.

Okay.

Yeah, when I was, I was a kid and on the Sandy River and Chester County, I was in places like this.

Actually, it was even denser than this.

I mean, I would be lost for 30 minutes going through it.

That's how dense it was and how extensive it was.

And now river cane is reduced by about 98 percent.

And based on Lawson, John Lawson and, and William Bartram, what they wrote about in the 1600s and 1700s, there were extensive areas of river cane along the rivers.

When he got to the coast, there's a different species, Arundinaria tecta This is Arundinaria gigantea.

But still, there was cane, there was a river cane, found all the way up to New York, and then throughout the southeast, even up into Oklahoma, and then, then south into Texas.

<Amanda> Now, there were 10 million acres of that but like 100 million acres of longleaf.

So what did river came need to be established?

What What was it looking for ecologically?

<Robert> Well, yeah, it likes to be in wet areas, not saturated all the time.

They like to be flooded, and that provide some extra nutrients for them.

And they actually help the river because they they've reduced the sediment that goes into the river.

So they're really important for that.

So they had their little niche here, not right at the right at the edge of the floodplain where the water is there all the time.

But in the parts of the floodplain that were a little bit drier so they would get water.

They would get the roots saturated for part of the year.

Then other parts of the year it would be drier.

I think it would be dry enough for fire to occasionally go through the cane.

And there's there's some theories that that possibly was, was beneficial to them because Bartram talked about and and John Lawson talked about the Native Americans would burn the cane.

You could hear it, hear an explosion.

It would sound like firecrackers because you see right here, this is filled with air, when it would heat up and the fire, <Boom> yeah, it would explode.

<Yeah> So the, Native Americans would do that some.

<Amanda> Well, and they would do that because there was game in there?

<Robert> Well, it could because there's game in there.

And also, they were pretty good ecologist.

They probably had an idea that this is a species that needed some disturbance.

And you don't need it every year, but it needed some disturbance.

And actually, the river provided that disturbance because we didn't have dams back then.

So you know, when it would rain a lot, you didn't have the dam holding back the water.

It would flood and it would scour out parts of the floodplain and take out some of the trees.

And then river cane could get started.

<Amanda> Because it wants Sun sunlight.

<Robert> Yeah, it wants sunlight.

It can do okay under partial shade.

But it really likes the full sunlight.

All that really old pictures from the early 1900s of really tall river cane kinda like we have here, it's all out in open sunny areas.

<Amanda> Well, you said it was good for stabilizing the soil.

I've read that it was better at preventing sediment than just trees and shrubs.

<Robert> It is better because it gets so dense, so dense that it slow, forces the water to slow down.

When it slows down, the water will drop the sediment.

So it helps to keep the water and the river clean, provides nutrients for the soul.

And that's really important because Native Americans, you know, they like to farm most of the time it was by the rivers.

And it seemed possible that their farmer practices benefited cane because when they abandoned the field, which they would do fairly often, then river cane could come in there, because it can spread fairly rapidly with rhizomes.

It's an underground stem.

So oftentimes, the best way for river cane to reproduce is vegetatively.

And that means that that underground stem is going to sprout.

And then it can reproduce that way.

Now, it does produce seeds.

And, but it's a really odd, odd ecology because it will flower every anywhere from 3 to 50 years.

<Amanda> And does it die like bamboo?

<Robert> After it blooms, it can die, Yes.

And it makes the seeds, but the seeds aren't very viable.

Oftentimes, if they land in the right spot, then they're not going to germinate.

Or they have very low germination rates.

So the best way is vegetatively.

<Uh huh> And then there also there's going to be some that comes back from seeds.

<Amanda> Well, what did it do for animals back in the day when it was so extent and so thick?

<Robert> There were a lot of species that used it.

Deer would hide in it.

They can, you can see here, it's pretty dense and this one is not that dense.

I've been in much denser.

So the deer can hide.

The bear and the bison like to go in there during the hot summer days because it was cooler.

And you know, the bison made munch on some leaves in the bear may look for a deer.

But there were birds also.

Bachman's warblers specialized on river cane.

This where it nested.

It's now extinct.

<Oh> And then Swainson's warbler, which we still have shows a strong preference for river cane.

<Does it> Yes.

And then there's six, six butterfly species that rely on cane.

<Amanda> That's the larval food source for 'em?

<Yes, yes> Good heavens!

<Robert> Yeah.

So they're ecologically very important is, important for the animals, it's important for the soil, and it's important for, culturally, also.

So it's just a very important ecosystem that has declined 98 percent.

And people don't get to do what I did as a kid and walk through that and it's, it's like a, it's like a mystery.

Every time you push back some cane, you don't know what you're going to find.

Yeah, which for me when I was a kid, that was just a lot of fun.

<Amanda> Or who's gonna find you.

<Robert> Or who's gonna find me.

That's right.

Yeah.

< laughs > <Amanda> Those bears that are still out here.

Yeah, <Robert> I wish Yeah, that would be great to have them all over the place in the river cane.

Yeah.

<Amanda> Yeah.

Well, let's not see what today.

< laughs > <Amanda> Robert, thank you so much.

<Robert> You're welcome.

<Amanda> It's been fascinating.

♪ Adam Griffith, you are an extension agent like me.

< laughs > But you have a pretty fascinating assignment associated with river cane.

I do.

My job is to make sure that Cherokee tribal artisans have the natural resources that they need to do what they do.

And so I'm employed by the state of North Carolina as an extension agent.

But my job is paid for by the Cherokee preservation The foundation.

So I'm the director of something called the Revitalization of Traditional Cherokee Artisan Resources, which is a mouthful, but it's an absolutely wonderful job and I love it.

<Amanda> And I think, if I'm not mistaken, the people that you're dealing with mostly are doing things that are decorative or relatively small, like blow guns, or thinks.

But tell me traditionally how massively, the use was of river cane, and everything that not only the Cherokee, but other tribes did as well.

<Adam> Dr. Charles Hudson summed it up very well, when he called river cane, the plastic of southeastern native tribes.

And so it was used for virtually everything from the walls of the homes that they lived in to the fish creels that they use to catch fish in to the blow guns that you mentioned, for hunting small game, the basketry, the river cane mats, where food was prepared and served on, river cane mats for sleeping.

It was in virtually all aspects of their lives.

<Amanda> And there was a beautiful way of weaving it.

And I think they involve plant dyes to make it even more beautiful for some of the mattings and things.

<Adam> We also focus, R.T.CAR also focuses on dye plants as well.

And so yes, they, they wove these beautiful patterns into a wide variety of objects.

They use bloodroot, which is a white flower coming up right now.

Sanguinaria canadensis.

Right.

So the sanguine is French for blood.

You've got a Black Walnut, White Walnut, which is Butternut, Yellow Root.

And these were the primary dye plants.

And so we also focus on, on those species as well.

<Amanda> And so now that we're down to like two percent of the original 10 million acres, these artisans, I don't think, aren't they having trouble finding enough of this?

<Adam> They absolutely are.

And they're having to drive further and further from Cherokee.

So they're driving out of state.

And so my role is to help them find the natural resources that they need.

But R.T.CAR and the Cherokee Preservation Foundation also fund nonprofit organizations to carry out this work.

An example of that is the Chattooga Conservancy where we're seating in this land on the National Forest.

And so they have done excellent work restoring river cane to this landscape.

We also work with a wide variety of other nonprofit partners, and are actually seeking partners in the upstate of South Carolina now, where river cane naturally grows.

<Amanda> Or where it was, or suitable sites and perhaps.

So how are you going to get, you said in this site, you can, you're hoping to have 29 acres replanted and you're gonna find nice, healthy clumps that are a good size and move them when appropriate to other places.

But there's not enough to do that all over.

How are you going to grow it and I've heard it's hard kind of hard to grow?

<Adam> That's true.

It's it can be a little finicky.

It's a grass.

And so you can transplant it simply by digging it up and moving it from one location to the other.

We don't condone moving it hundreds of miles for genetic reasons.

However, tens of miles I think is perfectly acceptable.

And so the challenge, as Robert mentioned previously, is that river cane only flowers and produces seeds so sporadically that we can't really harvest them.

These were harvested in 2004 from Kituwa outside of Bryson City.

And that's the main reason that we're digging up clumps of river cane.

When we dig up the clumps of the river cane, we're targeting a patch of ground that has between three and eight stems, three and eight culms.

And we're digging in a circle, maybe 18 to 24 inches in diameter of soil, and 10 to 12 inches down to try to capture the rhizomes in a very long length.

Right.

The longer the length of the rhizome, the better the survival rate will be for this clump of plants.

Yeah.

And so we're transplanting during the time of the year when the plant is dormant over the winter.

February is probably the best month for transplanting.

And so we're digging up, I did an Eagle Scout project last weekend with a young man in Buncombe County.

And so we're actively transplanting river cane in multiple locations.

And we were fortunate enough at the Cherokee tribal greenhouse with David Anderson to receive a large amount of river cane from Warren Wilson College in western North Carolina.

And so we're we're using that to distribute amongst tribal members.

<Amanda> Where the Cherokee are living right now, I believe is not particularly conducive to growing river cane.

Is that while we're trying to find, you're trying to find other places, and they'll be allowed to harvest with the proper procedures and all in those places eventually?

<Adam> That's exactly right.

A large part of what R.T.CAR does is management memorandums of understanding with private landowners and nonprofit partners, to allow Cherokee tribal artisans to come harvest on their land.

If the natural resource, if the river cane is not large enough or of interest to the artisans, we keep an eye on it, I keep an eye on it, and we look and in the future, maybe it will develop into a natural resources that can be, can be used for tribal artisans.

<Amanda> And I would imagine that these aging artisans, in some case would like to pass their skills on, so it becomes even more critical that there is enough material, because people who are learning are gonna, not gonna turn out the most beautiful basket the first time.

They need a little bit to experiment with.

<Adam> it's actually very impressive.

They've reintroduced the curriculum into the Cherokee high school art program in Cherokee.

And actually, there are some really impressive baskets coming out.

If you really want to see some of them, come back at the Cherokee Fair this fall, it happens in October every year.

And some of the really nice baskets are from the high school art program.

And in fact, we just funded them, R.T.CAR and the C.P.F.

just funded them with the ability to purchase some materials for their, for their classroom.

<Amanda> So let's talk a little bit about the size of what's positively, what's good, and what isn't as useful.

<Adam> Right.

And so the phrase that has been used a few times today earlier was high quality river cane.

<Yeah> And so when I look around here, I see a lot of potential.

But I see a lot of bushy river cane, meaning that there's a lot of light in the area.

For river cane to develop into a really highly sought after natural resource for the artisans and possibly blowguns, this diameter river cane would be suitable for blowguns.

We need low light levels.

And so the river cane patch must get very dense.

Right.

So the taller individuals, the taller culms are reaching for that light.

They're not producing the branches <Yes> until very close to the top canopy layer.

And that enables that facilitates, <Amanda> That makes the diameter longer.

<Adam> That's exactly right.

Yep.

<Amanda> I've just scratched the surface, but I want to thank all of you who were here today to help us start to understand this remarkable resource.

<Adam> You're welcome and thanks for the opportunity.

♪ <Amanda> Now that I know what river cane looks like, I see it a lot.

I mean, there's little scattered patches of it here and there.

Even on the way to work here, Terasa.

There's a wet spot, a moist spot where I see it growing.

But to think that it was you know, so very, very important and I'm so proud of these people for all the work they're doing trying to bring it back especially so that the Indigenous artists will have it to us so they can continue their traditions.

I think that's very important.

Well, let's see about my hat.

Sometimes I have to take it off to look what's in it.

This is a Naked Lady.

And um, it's one of the like a Spider Lily.

It sends up its leaves first.

And then the flower comes up later.

And my husband said they used to remind me of me because they were pink and big.

I have lost a little weight.

I'll be happy to tell you.

And then Davis, this is a hybrid, I guess or a cultivar a cultivar of sweet, sweet spot, sweet, <Davis> Sweet Shrub, Sweet Bubby, Carolina Allspice is another common name for it.

That one looks like it may be Venus, which has a much larger flower.

<Amanda> It sure does.

It's not as fragrant.

The species has got a very nice fragrance.

It smells something like a like a cross between an apple and a strawberry.

<Amanda> But this one's very pretty.

<Yes it is> It is.

And then I've got some coneflowers and again, Terasa, you said reminded us we should leave these not deadhead 'em, because this is going to be favored by finches and lots of birds.

And then I have some Zinnias that come, that came back up from last year.

I like to plant the Zinnias that have an open center because they attract the pollinators and then they often just seed down and it's so nice to have them come back.

<Terasa> Your Naked Ladies, That's the, let's see Amaryllis Belladonna I believe.

Sometimes people call the Lycoris Naked Lady but that one's not the, the Lycoris is the Hurricane Lily, right, the red, usually a red flower, comes up.

<Amanda> I thought this was a Lycoris, no?

This is... <Terasa> I don't think so.

We can defer to a, I am definitely not a botanist.

We all know that.

< laughs > <Amanda> I'm glad you told me.

So what's the, what's the common red Spider Lily that we see come up so much?

<Davis> That one is a Lycoris <Amanda> So this is different.

<Davis> I believe that one is a Belladonna because the stamens just aren't as pronounced.

With the Lycoris, you get this big spray of yellow out of some of the red flowers.

<Amanda> Whatever it is, it's fun to have it pop up.

And it does.

The leaves came up a long time ago and now the flowers are coming up and I go, what's this coming up here?

And then you know, it's just such a surprise.

I always have a surprise in the garden.

Especially when you're not expecting things to come up where there's been a little bit a little bit difficult.

Well, Davis, I think you've got some, gosh, talk about color.

<Davis> I do have some colors here.

I'm gonna kind of spread these out a little bit.

<Amanda> Look at some of these for lipsticks.

< laugh s> <Davis> And we going to put some of the smaller ones near the front <Okay> and the larger ones near the back.

What I brought here is an array of purple coneflowers <Uh huh> Like the Echinacea your in your hat.

<Yes> The only the only question the only, the only mystery here is, these are all purple coneflowers but, <Amanda> They don't look very purple to me.

<Davis> Why are there no purple ones?

Exactly.

This, this group of flowers has become so popular over the last few years.

It was 20, 30 years ago you had, you had the species, you had Magnus which was the first one to be introduced that had the petals that are arrayed straight out instead of swept back like the species.

There was a, I believe it was an F 1 Generation called Ruby Star which is still a very durable perennial.

And then all of a sudden, all these colors exploded.

You've got yellows, reds, whites, pinks, oranges.

Closest we have to a purple one is this magenta or fuchsia colored one here in the center.

The two in the square pots here are part of the Pow Wow series.

The one in your hand is a Pow Wow Wild Berry and the other one of course is Pow Wow White.

<Alrighty> Those are nice.

Dwarf cultivars.

The foliage on an established plant will only be about 8 to 10 inches tall, it'll get, maybe half again, as tall as that so it's a really good one for a small property garden.

<Yeah, absolutely> The one in front of you is part of the Artisan series.

That one is called Artisan Soft Orange.

It's relatively new one and I think this is the first year we've had that one at the nursery.

<Amanda> Now it looks a little smaller.

Is it going to stay this way?

<Davis> I think it's going to get a little bit bigger.

Like I say the the Artisan series is a group that's just starting to become available like the last year or two.

<Amanda> It's a lovely color.

<Davis> Um hum.

The dark red one here is as part of the Sombrero series.

<Amanda> And it has the reflex petals?

<Davis> Right, right somewhat, but not as much as the species.

The species looks almost windswept.

And then we have the the yellow one here, which is also part of the Sombrero series.

That one is Lemon Ice, I believe.

<Okay> And here again, that was not going to get very big.

And one thing that we have found about the more Highland hybridized varieties, they don't seem to like wet feet as much as some of the others.

It is, they are hybrids of Prairie Wildflowers.

So they used to periodic heavy rains but then a lot of lot of drought in between.

So be sure to plant these in a spot that gets excellent drainage where water is accessible but not, but not constant.

And I have also found that with these plants in the wintertime, if you rake the mulch away from them and just leave the bare crown exposed, so the crown doesn't stay too wet through the winter, they have a better chance of survival.

And then the last one here is called Tiki Torch.

And it's pretty obvious why it gets its name.

<Amanda> You wanna tilt that towards the camera so they can see that beautiful color.

<Davis> It's just a really nice color and it stands out a good two to, two inch or two two feet to 30 inches above the foliage.

So it looks like a tiki torch out in the garden.

<Amanda> That's really lovely.

And again, not much care required.

<Davis> No.

No.

Just, just periodic watering during drought.

But other than that, that's about all that's required.

<Amnada> Now these aren't quite as we know, gotta be there forever, like the the species right?

So some of the tips like make sure it's got good drainage and then pulling the mulch away.

You might ensure that you'll have it for a lot longer than you would if you just acted like it was straight species.

<Davis> Exactly.

And the, like Terasa said, these, these are particularly targeted by finches and butterflies.

<Isn't that fun> Is is just a great, great all around garden to plant for wildlife, for your enjoyment <and long bloom time> These will, these will bloom generally from late June, mid to late June all the way up until frost.

<Amanda> Terasa what was it that Tony would say about summer?

<Terasa> About the seasons?

<Yeah> Oh We have almost summer, summer, still summer in Christmas.

< laugh s> In other words, it's hot most of the time <Yeah, yeah> <Davis> These will bloom the summer through still summer.

<Okay> < laughs > <Amanda> Oh my goodness.

We do miss Tony.

Okay, Terasa, what's up next?

<Terasa> It seems we have an insect question.

An identification.

This one comes in from Ed in Columbia who shared a photo and very simply asked, can you identify these insects?

<Amanda> Well, Phillip, I think even I could help with this.

<Phillip> Yes.

That, that is the Green June Beetle.

Very common here in South Carolina, especially in the heat of the summer this time of year.

You see 'em quite frequently in gardens and on fruit.

<Love figs> Yes, love figs.

Usually they don't cause an overabundance of damage unless there are large numbers.

And they're easily deterred with various insecticides.

<Amanda> They're pretty easy to catch.

And I like to catch one and put it in the frigerator in a jar for a few minutes until it gets a little chilled, and then tie a very lightweight thread around its leg.

And, and you can take him outside and make him fly around.

It's just fun.

You know, kids like to do stuff like that and keeps them away from that, looking at that screen.

They can look at that wonderful Junebug instead.

Okay.

Well, Davis, sometimes, you know, I just think planting a tree, anything that might give you some shade, and such habitat for wildlife.

Did you bring something we might talk about?

<Davis> Actually, I did.

I brought a, brought a couple of smaller trees that are both natives.

With all the interest in in resurgence of interest in native plants.

One of the issues with southeastern native understory plants is we've done so much deforestation, that a lot of southeastern natives won't grow here anymore.

So the first step in reestablishing a native landscape is to start with native trees.

The one on the, on the right is a, is the species Tupelo or Black Gum, Nyssa sylvatica.

It's a medium sized tree.

It will get up 35, 40 feet pretty quickly.

The color is unparalleled in the fall.

It's reds, oranges, burgundy's and then it gradually,<Turns so early> Right and it holds its color for a long time.

<Amanda> Phillip, There's some in Swan Lake and I mean, I don't know why anybody wants to get so excited about Red Maples, because they don't get all that colorful down here usually.

And they, but this I mean, you've got months of color with this one, don't you?

<Davis>You certainly do.

And the roots don't grow on top of the ground like Maple.

So you can actually grow some things underneath it.

Then the the one on the left is our native Sassafras.

<Amanda> And let me back up for a minute.

there's Nyssa aquatica, too that you'll see if you go to the Congaree National Forest <The Swamp Tupelo> <Davis> And the, the one on the left is the native Sassafras.

This one was was important for Native American culture.

They use the bark, they use the leaves, they use the roots.

It turns out that the roots are not, the tea made from the roots is not as healthy as people once thought it was.

But if for no other reason, Sassafras is just a beautiful native tree.

And those leaves when dried and ground up, make filé which is the, or filé rather, to thicken gumbo.

<Amanda> Okay, and then that one, I've never seen big ones.

But you remember there was the book called Sassafras or something.

And apparently they used to get quite large, but I don't ever see very large ones.

<Davis> The largest one I've seen it was probably about 20,25 feet tall.

And it was actually in my front yard when I lived in Asheville and Carolina Power and Light came through and cut it down because they were afraid it was going to interfere with the with the powerlines.

<Amanda> Oh my goodness.

My goodness gracious.

I think that there's a preparation out now in which they've removed the toxic or the thing we're not supposed to get.

I think I've seen one that you can get.

So, If you want that flavor, you probably have to search around.

But again, you know, it's so much fun to talk about native plants and flowering, but we've got to have some trees out there.

We need shade.

<Definitely> Well, thank you all so much.

This has been so much fun.

And I'm just encouraged about planting, going home and planting and keeping things watered.

I have a fledgling nursery, as you know, Terasa, where things are waiting to have the right place found and the fall is the best time to plant, so they may just have to wait until then.

<Terasa> That might be a good strategy.

<Amanda> I think so too.

Well, thank you all so much for being with us.

Come back soon.

And thank you all for being with us tonight, too.

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