- [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Off The Record", up above or down below, Charlotte City Council looks at plans for a new transportation center and also right next door.

Don't call it the Epicenter anymore, a new name for Charlotte's mostly empty Uptown entertainment complex.

CATS bus drivers say no to the city's latest contract offer, but both sides are still talking.

And if you're headed to the airport, better leave early.

How closed roads in full parking lots are complicating local air travel.

Plus the search starts for another new school superintendent.

Tighter security at CMS football stadiums and a wet, windy weekend from Hurricane Ian.

Lots to talk about next on PBS Charlotte.

(upbeat music) And from our PBS Charlotte Studios and historic Plaza Midwood, I'm Jeff Sonier, and we're off the record talking about the stories you've been talking about this week.

And if you watch the news, read the news and listen to the news, well, you'll recognize the names and faces around our virtual table.

Ely Portillo from the UNC Charlotte Urban Institute, Danielle Chemtob from Axio Charlotte, and Genna Corlino from the "Charlotte Observer".

You can also join the conversation at home or from your phone.

Just email your questions and comments to offtherecord@wtvi.org.

Well, let's start with the weather, since we're kind of in the middle of it right now.

It's Friday and the entire Charlotte region is under a tropical storm warning.

Lots of rain and high winds.

And I guess we'll all wait to see what the damage in the region looks like when this storm hopefully moves out of the area tomorrow.

But for now at least there's a state of emergency for the entire state of North Carolina, and a lot of folks are comparing this hurricane to Hurricane Florence a couple of years ago.

Slow moving, not necessarily super high winds at this stage of the game, but a lot of rain that could stick around for more than a day and and cause flooding problems and power outage problems.

Just wanted to touch base and let everyone know we're aware of that and hopefully we won't have too much to talk about regarding the storm when we get together again next week.

But let's move on to some of the stories that we've all been looking at this week, and starting with City Hall, City Council members talking about the future of Charlotte's Uptown transportation center.

And Genna Corlino, you were at the council meeting as they had their first formal discussion of this particular project.

Do you wanna bring us up to date on what council saw and what their initial reaction was to those plans Uptown?

- Yeah, definitely.

So basically how CATS introduced this to council was that they have three options.

They can either keep the Uptown bus facility at street level, they can either move it up to what I think they're calling Terrace level at the same level as the blue line, as the light rail, or they can bury the buses underground.

And they didn't, CATS wouldn't share a lot about the difference in costs for these options.

But council was really trying, pushing them to get more information.

But CEO of CATS, John Lewis, just kept saying, oh, we're still very, very early in design.

We can't say much.

What was interesting to me, and I'm still kind of new to Charlotte, so I'm curious what you guys think about this, but a few of the council members brought up how they were upset that they were even thinking about redeveloping the CTC Uptown and they should look to other areas of the city instead.

Which to me, I mean growing up, I know that Epicenters changed a lot, which we'll talk about later, but like Uptown, I'm from Rock Hill and Uptown's always been like the happening place.

So that's something that was really interesting to me to hear and I'd love to hear what y'all think about that.

- Well, I think it goes back to the hub and spoke system and of course they wanna, they do wanna change that, but at the end of the day, the way it is right now is that most bus riders come into Uptown to make any transfers.

So I think it would be very difficult to, you know, kind of change that.

But of course that is part of the inefficiency of the bus system that they would like to improve.

But I did think that was interesting comment given that Uptown is such an important kind of transfer spot for so many commuters.

- Yeah, and this is all taking place in the context of Charlotte trying to develop its transit expansion plans, trying to figure out what the system will look like if it's able to build the light rail lines that it wants east and west, the red line commuter rail to the north.

So this is one part of that bigger ongoing discussion.

And right now I think that it's just tied up in so much uncertainty, you throw in the kind of catastrophic declines in ridership that have come with COVID and CATS bus system reliability problems that I think we're gonna talk about in a little bit related to the drivers and the contract.

And there's really just a lot of uncertainty here.

So it's kind of tough to parse out exactly what direction this is going to go because it's one piece of a much bigger puzzle right now.

- Right.

And they were really big on pushing that this will be a multimodal center like with spaces for ride share, with bicycle areas, things like that.

So I'm very curious to see new renderings of this as they come out.

- I think there's very much two elements of this that aren't necessarily in conflict, but there's the desire to redevelop this section of Uptown, which is what this under or above ground or whatever they end up deciding kind of proposal is part of, right?

It's this bigger mixed use development for the side of the transit center and then, you know, what is most convenient for riders.

And so those two things, you know, aren't necessarily in conflict, but they're trying to figure out, okay, is putting it underground going to help with the problems they've been having at the transit center, is it going to help in terms of the actual transit riders?

- Well that's, you know, and that's something that I was thinking about also, I mean, we've heard the discussion before is CATS, is CATS running a transportation system or are they using transportation to further development?

And sometimes those aren't in conflict necessarily, but when you prioritize one over the other, you're bound to have, you know, you're giving up something for the second priority and is putting it underground or above ground really helpful to the folks that need that bus system.

'Cause we've talked about that before, and particularly with the bus system, that is the last and only means of transportation for many of those riders.

And if you're, you know compromising on their, if on the efficiency or the comfort of a station to accommodate the Hornets or other development Uptown, I'm not sure that's really in this case the mission, is it?

- Well you heard several council members during this discussion questioning, you know, would it make more sense for riders to put this station somewhere else, like maybe move it to somewhere just outside of Uptown?

Would that be more efficient and easier for riders?

CATS has been pretty insistent that this is the best location that they need to keep it there for the systems efficiency because most riders are still going to and from Uptown, but this is also happening as CATS is in this multi-year effort to realign the bus system and change the route so that it's not so Uptown focused.

It's called Envision My Ride that plan.

And I think that there is some tension in terms of, do you have an Uptown focused system or are you gonna be able to develop crosstown routes in more of a grid like CATS has been saying for a long time.

So they're kind of moving on both tracks right now saying this needs to be Uptown, it's the best for economic development and efficiency for transit riders.

But also we're developing, you know, this different looking network with less of a hub and spoke focus.

- And something I still have questions about that I don't know if you guys have more insight into is how Micro Transit is going to fit into this.

This is something they've been introducing at all of these community meetings, virtual meetings that that CATS is holding.

But when I ask questions like, well, will this supplement the Village Riders or replace it, like, will this be a competitor to ride shares?

How will this fit into the CPC?

It just seems like it's still very certain and early on, I feel like those are conversations that might kind of coincide with the CPC.

- Yeah, I think you overall, you get a sense at CATS in general that I think the community and maybe the leadership in the community are looking for a plan, not necessarily, you know, a definitive, I mean if the plan's wrong, the plan's right, just give us, you know, some detail, give us some direction.

And I think that's been one of the criticisms of CATS that leadership there does not provide that kind of direction and clear decision making that I think the political leadership would like to see.

And frankly now a lot of the ridership and the community would like to see as well.

It's kind of a, you know, we're getting to the point now, you know, day of reckoning coming and coming for CATS with so many moving pieces on the table and so much criticism of them, it's makes you wonder what, you know, what will happen, you know, not necessarily to these plans, but to the folks making the decisions on these plans as we move forward.

Any last thoughts on the CTC before we moved to the next door neighbor of the Epicenter and another, another discussion topic for city council this week.

I actually walked through the Epicenter a couple of days ago to catch a light rail train at CTC, and it was remarkable how empty and lonely it felt there.

It really does feel like it needs something and the new developers or the new management there is saying it all starts with a new name.

Anyone wanna take that out first?

- Well, you know, I think it's kind of ironic that it's already changing so much.

Everyone saw this coming of course with the long standing problems they've had there, the bankruptcies, all of that.

But the Epicenter, you know, is only about 14 years old.

And when I moved to Charlotte in 2009, it was the place to be and now it's CBRE is announced that it's going to be, correct me if I get this wrong, but I think the Queen City Quarter.

- Queen City Quarter, Yeah.

Like the French Quarter maybe.

I'm not sure where they're going with this, but.

- Yeah, I will say I did a big feature story for Charlotte Magazine about the Epicenter earlier this year.

And in talking with real estate folks, I was kind of expecting there to be more of a wholesale, not just rebrand, new paint improvements, new name, but more of a wholesale redevelopment of at least part of the site.

That's not the direction that the new owners are going.

They're going for what I would say is the more conservative, change the name, repair it, bring in new tenants, but keep the structures as is for now.

And you know, I think it's gonna be tough for the Epicenter Queen City Quarter to both shake off its reputation as somewhere that had gotten unsafe and you know, how do you rebrand something that is really so recent and when it started was so celebrated by the city.

I think a lot of people are just gonna keep calling it Epicenter.

- Yeah, I'm not sure you can shake the name, you wanna shake the reputation, I suppose.

And that's probably step one, at least in the minds of the management folks, building itself is kind of foreboding too, I guess.

It doesn't really lend itself to the, you know, the kind of thing that a lot of folks imagine for that particular space in Uptown.

- Yeah, it's really a suburban design.

I've heard it described as a shopping mall with the roof taken off.

It was designed in the early two thousands and it's really not like the urban street presence, pedestrian friendly retail developments that are kind of the norm now.

So it's kind of a building out of its time.

- Yeah, Genna?

- Yeah, I was just gonna say, I also thought, Ely, early on that there could be a potential to kind of redevelop it entirely, but as you say, they're kind of going in a different direction because maybe this was a good opportunity to incorporate housing.

I mean, you see nearby with the CPC in the Hornets Practice Facility, they're potentially gonna build up with that and not necessarily for housing, I think it's like office retail or hotel space.

But I mean there's, as we know, a huge housing need in Charlotte and if you're going to have these luxury apartments that we see popping up, I feel like Uptown where these people can afford it might be the right place to put it.

But yeah, I also thought it was really interesting that they're keeping it the same and just changing the name.

So we'll see how that goes.

- Danielle?

- I think you have to think too about how much has changed since the Epicenter opened.

You know, there was still sort of this sense of these mixed use type developments being new and now you have all over South End, you know, basically the same types of bars that you can, that you can go to and kind of this mixed use dense environment that is not so, you know, novel anymore.

And then of course on top of that you have the factor of the pandemic, which I think is hard to overestimate on Uptown and how, you know, not only folks commuting to work, I mean there has declined, of course there are still games and you know, sporting events and concerts Uptown.

So that I think that is drawing some folks in, but there's definitely far fewer people in Uptown than there were before the pandemic.

And I think it's gonna be interesting to see kind of how they overcome that, especially with it being a focus on retail and not so much nightlife.

- Yeah, I think when the project kicked off, it was kind of the only game in town.

It was really the only thing of its kind in Uptown and now with South End literally steps away that provides, a much larger and much more complete experience if that's what you're looking for.

You know, it's again, but if you remember back to the Democratic National Convention and just what a hotspot that whole location was for that week, it was kind of front and center, not just in Charlotte, but for the nation to see.

And the CIAA tournaments that have used that for, you know, used it for years as kind of their party central location.

It is kind of interesting to see how far and how quickly it's fallen, but next step I guess will be up to those managers and those developers to create something new or to recreate the old excitement, I suppose, but lots more to happen on.

Go ahead Ely, yeah.

- I just want a commemorative plaque to honor my feat riding the mechanical bull at Whiskey River there, over a decade ago.

- I just wanna see video.

I don't care about the plaque, I wanna see that.

But yeah, we've heard that story maybe, you know, that could have been the beginning of the decline, you know, Ely on the bull and then right downhill from there.

So anyway.

- It's true.

- Anyway, we'll see what happens next with the Epicenter and CTC is all kind of, you know, side by side problems or issues that have to be addressed sooner rather than later.

We mentioned CATS a moment ago, let's just come back real quick to talk about the contract drivers rejected the first offer, but it's not the last offer and both sides are still talking, any sense of whether this contract could eventually lead to a solution to the problems, the operational problems that the whole bus system has had?

You know, very recently?

- Well, I think that, you know, there are of course negotiations about things like pay, but there's these larger structural issues.

The drivers particularly I wrote a couple weeks ago are concerned about safety.

I mean, we saw what happened with Ethan Rivera and that tragic incident and you know, even beyond the drivers I spoke to, they've been punched in the face and had a machete pulled on them and all these horrible stories.

And I think that that's gonna be one of the key issues that drivers are really trying to, you know, work through with, of course.

And then they're negotiating not with CATS, but with this third party company RATP Dev that runs the bus system.

And so those are gonna be some of the key issues I think beyond just, hey, and of course the days off and that whole debate.

But I think that they, you know, the way they described to me is just kind of feeling blamed for the system wide problems when you have to think, you know, when your bus is late, who is there for you to complain, hopefully you will be, you know, respectful, but at the end of the day, people are gonna complain to the bus driver if they're gonna complain and so they're really, they feel like they're really bearing the brunt of these larger problems.

- Yeah, and I think that, you know, even though this contract had an increase in pay, an 11% increase, I believe, you know, you gotta remember Amazon is starting people in warehouses I believe at 20 an hour now in a lot of locations.

Bank of America has increased its starting pay to $25 an hour in the coming years.

So, you know, there's a lot of opportunities out there for people who, you know, don't have to learn to drive a bus and deal with these issues that Danielle is talking about in the public.

And I think that that is really going to be hard for CATS.

You know, they have a job that requires you to be there in person working nights, weekends, and holidays.

So it's beyond the pay, one, the pay is probably going to have to be significantly higher which gets to a funding issue and then two, it's a hard job and you know, we know that it's hard to hire in general right now.

So I think that's gonna be an ongoing challenge.

- Back to your point, Danielle too, I think rightfully or wrongfully, CATS management has, I don't know if scapegoating is the right word, but they've kind of made the drivers the scapegoat for these operational problems.

And again, that may be legitimate, it may not be, but I wonder in the course of negotiations, if those negotiations get a little bit tougher because both sides see themselves as adversaries right now as opposed to, you know, partners going forward.

I know that a lot of drivers will talk about feeling like they've been, and I hate to use the phrase thrown under the bus by management when it comes to these operational issues.

- Yeah, I mean, of course, you know, we're not in the room for those discussions, but I definitely think that that is the mood that I heard from drivers is really just like I said, you know, kind of feeling blamed and sort of feeling like, yeah, I mean, yes, at the end of the day these problems are being caused by the fact that they don't have enough drivers, but why is that?

You know, that was sort of their argument.

They're like, well, why don't we have enough drivers?

Why can't we hire drivers?

You know, those are the problems that we need to address.

Instead of just saying, well, we don't have enough drivers, it's their fault or, you know, and then they don't explicitly say that, but you know, therefore expect delays.

I think it kind of, it doesn't address the underlying systemic problems.

And we're mentioning too that nationwide, there's a shortage of transportation operators, particularly bus operators.

The workforce is a bit older, and then of course we have all the issues, you know, people I mentioned that are happening in every industry with kind of more competition for workers.

So I think that we need to talk more about in this discussion, kind of the systemic problems that are, that are the reason that we don't have enough bus drivers.

- Yeah.

And again, we can't ever forget that again, that that system is so, so important to so many people in this town who don't have transportation.

Otherwise, it really behooves the city and all parties involved to, you know, find a solution that, you know, that gets that service and that system back operating the way it ought to for the folks that need it so badly.

The airport has enjoyed some success in terms of passengers returning to pre-COVID levels, but if you're a passenger or dropping off or picking up a passenger the last couple of days it's been no fun out at Charlotte Douglas with the construction that's going on out there.

Any thoughts about that?

And also the parking situation that it seems to get more and more complicated and less and less convenient for folks using our airport.

- I will say, I have a friend that's been texting me like crazy.

She's picking up her boyfriend at Charlotte tonight, or she's supposed to, and she's like, Just send me everything you're published.

Like I need to know what's going on.

And I was like, well, the issue might not be the storm, it might be the parking situation, so come early to pick them up, but yeah, I know, I think the, what is it, the parking lot, you can only stay there for like 15 minutes if they pick you up in a daily lot.

And I've seen pictures from how departures and arrivals are kind of all in the same place and it definitely looks very crazy over there.

- And you need a reservation not just for your plane, that's just for your flight.

You need a reservation for a parking spot, otherwise you might not have a place to park once you get to the airport.

I know this has been, this is a system that's been in place for a while now, but it seems to be catching an awful lot of people off guard as the airport builds back up to its pre- COVID levels of passenger service.

- Yeah.

And you know, parking is the number one source of revenue for the airport.

So they have an interest in filling up those lots and making sure that they can, you know, not scare people away.

There's also offsite parking that is competing with the airport, the parking spot and other companies.

So that is an option for travelers too.

I think that big picture, you know, the silver line to the airport is part of CAT's expansion plans for the light rail and you know, obviously that won't be open for a long time and there is right now the only, the sprinter bus for public transportation.

But I think that this is part of the highlighting the fact that, you know, as you become a big city and step up into the quote unquote big leagues, a rail transport to the airport is pretty standard in most large cities.

And I think that this highlights that we might need that.

- Yeah.

- Go ahead.

- I was just gonna probably say the same thing as you.

Unfortunately, the stop is not gonna be located right at the airport, so you would still have to get on another form of transportation.

And of course that's been, you know, highly debated as to whether that's feasible and what are the reasons for that.

But I think that that's definitely kind of factoring into all of this.

- Yeah, it's too bad any of the, you know, whether it's a rail stop out there or whatever.

I mean, the next couple of weeks are really gonna be punishing, I suppose, for folks like your friend Genna, who's going out there in the next day or two, but at least that closed row that's limiting arrival access to the airport.

That's only gonna be a two week process.

But this parking thing looks like it's a long term situation that folks, as you mentioned, you are just gonna have to get used to the, you know, growing pains of a big city airport and now experiencing those big city problems.

We've got, I feel like, go ahead.

- Sorry.

I was just gonna say, I feel like those who need to travel by air haven't really caught a break in the past few years.

You've had COVID kind of limit that and then prices shoot up over the summer for tickets and then just crazy summer travel in general with delayed flights and kind of the, I would say similar issues to what we're seeing with CATS drivers where you have a short supply of airline workers and then now actually getting to the airport and parking at the airport is an issue.

So I feel like it's just kind of back to back blows for Charlotte Douglas.

- Yeah, I've gotta take someone out to the airport while this is still going on.

I'm not looking forward to it either.

I'll have to get all your stuff also Genna, send me the stuff too so I can make my plans.

- Go in Billy Graham Parkway.

There is another entrance.

- Hey, well we had about a minute left very quickly, couple of CMS stories.

We don't all cover CMS on a regular basis, this group here, but math grades only 8% of high school students, college or career ready.

And that's actually higher than what the score was last year.

Stadium security issues.

They're limiting access among younger kids only with chaperones.

And the search for a new superintendent kind of starts officially now with public input.

Any quick thoughts on how important this next decision is on the next superintendent for CMS, given all the uproar in the school system recently?

- Well, I think that they obviously need stability.

We've been through a lot of superintendents in the last decade here and just having someone long term in the job, you know, for more than a year or two would be a welcome change.

I will say that part, some evidence of how frequent this has been is I searched CMS superintendent search in Google, getting ready for this show this morning and the first thing that came up, the first search result was CMS's press release and news about Clayton Wilcox, you know, several superintendents ago.

That's still the number one search result you get.

So yeah, stability would be great.

- Yeah, the school board looking for public input right now, I imagine they'll get an ear full based on, you know, the problems in the school system and who the community wants to be the next leader of that school system.

Hey, we're out of time folks, but I do appreciate you joining us this week on a rainy Friday and at home.

If you've got questions or comments regarding this show or other shows, send them to offtherecord@wtvi.org.

Thanks again for joining us at home and we'll see you next time right here on "Off The Record".

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.