HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE BOOK MARK I'M CHRISTINE BROWN YOUR HOST TODAY MY GUEST IS TAIJI WHEN THE AUTHOR OF BATTLE OF THE BREZHNEV'S A TEXAS FOOTBALL RIVALRY A RIOT AND A MURDER TIM THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE RIGHT NOW THAT TITLE IS DYNAMIC AND IT MAKES ME WANT IT IMMEDIATELY START TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK BUT WHY DON'T YOU JUST INTRODUCE YOURSELF AND INTRODUCE THE BOOK A LITTLE BIT TO FULLY DIVING ABSOLUTELY IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL FANS WHEN I CAME ACROSS A STORY IT WAS KIND OF A MERGING OF A COUPLE OF PASSIONS AND I HEAD AND WAS THE PERFECT STORY FOR ME YOU MENTIONED THE TITLE THERE IN THE WORD MURDER IS DEFINITELY PROVOCATIVE THAT WAS SOMETHING I DEBATED ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE WRITING PROCESS HAD ACTUALLY TALKED TO AN ARCHIVIST TAKES ZAYN HIM THAT FELT THAT IT WASN'T A MURDER THAT CITY THAT WAS REALLY JUST A CASE OF BOYS ARE BEING BOYS BUT AS I LOOKED INTO MORE AND MORE MURDER ACTUALLY WAS APPROPRIATE SO NOT ONLY DOES MAKE IT A PROVOCATIVE TITLE BUT IT'S A VERY ACCURATE TITLE SO TELL US HOW YOU HEARD ABOUT THIS STORY VERY INTERESTING.

IT WAS ACTUALLY AT A BAYLOR TAKES ZAYN IN FOOTBALL GAME TEN YEARS AGO BACK IN 2008.

I WAS WALKING INTO THE STADIUM AND THIS IS AT FLOYD CASEY STADIUM THERE IN WACO AND AT THE BAYLOR GAMES.

WE HAVE A GROUP CALLED CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

WE JUST CALM CHAMBER AND A YOUNG MAN WAS OUT THERE SELLING GAMEDAY PROGRAMS ASKED ME FOR ONE TO BUY PROGRAM AND THEN HE MADE A COMMENT ABOUT THAT HE HOPED THAT WE WOULD KILL AND AGGIE LIKE WE DID THAT TIME BEFORE AND I HAD GRADUATED FROM BAYLOR DID ALL FOUR YEARS OF COLLEGE THERE AND SO IMMEDIATELY MY INTEREST WAS PEAKED AND I ASKED HIM WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

AND HE SAID YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE TIME.

OR DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE TIME THAT THE AG WAS KILLED A FOOTBALL GAME IN WACO AND I SAID I DIDN'T AND ASKED HIM WHAT HE KNEW AND TURNED OUT HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING MORE THAN I DID THAT WAS ABOUT THE EXTENT OF HIS KNOWLEDGE THERE.

SO I ACTUALLY WENT HOME THAT NIGHT AFTER A VERY GOOD FOOTBALL GAME AND GET ON THE INTERNET AND LITERALLY WITHIN ABOUT 30 SECONDS I HAD A NAME HAD A DATE AND WENT TO THE LIBRARY A FEW DAYS LATER AND HAD A PICTURE OF THE YOUNG MAN THAT WAS SLAIN CHARLES MICHAEL HOLMES SAYS CHARLES MILO SESSUMS A LITTLE BIT OF A TRICKY SO THIS STORY.

THIS IS AN OLD STORY THIS TOOK PLACE IN 1926.

CAN YOU JUST GIVE US A BARE BONES OUTLINE OF WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE WE REALLY GET INTO IT AND SO THERE HAS BEEN A BAREBONE OUTLINE OF WHAT HAPPENED FOR ABOUT 90 TWO YEARS AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE BOOK WILL REALLY INTRIGUING A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HEARD SOMETHING ABOUT BECAUSE OUR GO TO A LOT DEEPER THE OUTLINE THAT WE'VE KNOWN SINCE THE BEGINNING WAS THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF A HALF TIME PERFORMANCE A FIGHT ERUPTED BETWEEN THE TWO STUDENT BODIES RIGHT THERE ON THE FIELD IN WACO.

THE GAME WAS ANXIOUS IN WACO 1926.

YOU HAD AS MANY AS MAYBE A THOUSAND PARTICIPANTS IN THE FIGHT THAT'S ACCORDING TO A NEWSPAPER AND SAN ANTONIO TEXAS AND SO AS YOU HAD THE STUDENTS FIGHTING ONE STUDENT GOT A SEVERE INJURY.

HE WAS HIT IN THE HEAD WITH WHAT WAS LATER DESCRIBED AS A PIECE OF A WOODEN CHAIR AND HE DIED FROM THOSE INJURIES THE VERY NEXT MORNING AND SO IT WASN'T AN IMMEDIATE DEATH RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY AND NO ONE KNEW THE SEVERITY OF WOULDN'T ACTUALLY OCCURRED UNTIL THE NEWS WAS RELEASED THE FOLLOWING DAY THAT HE HAD ACTUALLY PASSED AWAY NOW YOU MENTIONED THAT ALL THE PEOPLE HAVE NO MAYBE IT'S JUST THIS KIND OF MISS THIS IDEA SO WHY HASN'T THIS STORY REALLY BEEN RESEARCHED THAT IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

EVEN WHEN YOU GO BACK TO THE STORIES AND NEWSPAPERS AND A FEW THE ACCOUNTS MAYBE THAT CAME OUT IN A TRAILER ALUMNI MAGAZINE AND ALL OVER THE YEARS AND THEN YOU ACTUALLY HAD A STORY ABOUT A MONTH AFTER THE GAME THAT APPEARED IN A MAGAZINE DOWN HERE CALLED THE TEXAS AGGIE AND NO ONE BOTHERED TO LOOK INTO IT TO REALLY TRY TO EXPLAIN THE CAUSES AND ALL AND WHAT YOU GET A SENSE OF WHEN YOU REALLY START TO DIG INTO SOME OF THE INTERVIEWS THAT WERE CONDUCTED WITH PEOPLE THROUGH TWO INVESTIGATIONS OF IT AT THE TIME IS THAT PEOPLE REALLY JUST TO KIND OF MOVE ON BOTH SIDES.

I THINK GOT THE SENSE THAT THEY BOTH WERE SOMEWHAT GUILTY THAT IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED THERE WAS MAYBE SOME SHAME ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND SO IT WAS JUST SWEPT UNDER THE RUG AND THEN A COUPLE OF MONTHS LATER ACTUALLY THREE MONTHS AFTERWARDS ALMOST THERE WAS A TRAGIC ACCIDENT WITH THE BAYLOR BASKETBALL TEAM IN AROUND ROCKED TEXAS THAT KILLED 10 YOUNG MEN AT THAT INSTITUTION AND SO ONCE YOU GET TO THAT POINT BAYLOR NO LONGER WANTED TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO AND AGGIE AND A FOOTBALL GAME THERE AS I SAY AND WHERE THE CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK.

THEY NOW HAVE THEIR OWN DID TO BURY AND SO THEIR FOCUS ENTIRELY SHIFTED AND I THINK THERE WAS ALSO THE SENSE THAT IF WE ARE GOING TO MOVE BEYOND AS A RIVALRY BETWEEN THE TWO SCHOOLS AND MAINTAINING THE TWO INSTITUTIONS THAT THEY BOTH KIND OF REALIZED THEY COULDN'T KEEP THIS TOPIC ALIVE AND SO IT VERY QUICKLY FADED QUICKER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE.

SO THIS HAPPENED NINETY TWO YEARS AGO.

THAT'S A LONG TIME AGO.

ALSO THERE'S A LOT OF JUST HERE SAY AND RUMORS AND GOSSIP SO HOW DO YOU HOW DO YOU DO THE RESEARCH AND HOW DO YOU SEPARATE.

HOW DID YOU SEPARATE WHAT PEOPLE WERE SAYING AROUND TOWN VERSUS WHAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY VERIFIABLY PROVES FACT NOT NOT THE EASIEST TASK HEAD.

ONE THING WORKING MY ADVANTAGE AND THAT WAS THAT I HAD NOT HEARD ABOUT THE STORY AS A SITTER EVERYTHING LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENED WHEN I WALKED IN THE STADIUM IN 2008 WAS MY FIRST INTRODUCTION TO IT SO AS I STARTED DIGGING INTO FACTS KNOW WHAT I SAW IN THE NEWSPAPER WASN'T THE MYTH AND WASN'T THE HALF TRUTHS.

IT WAS AN INCOMPLETE STORY.

BUT IT WASN'T SOME OF THE CUTE STORIES THAT GREW UP OVER OVER TIME.

AND SO WHEN I STARTED TO GO THROUGH I KIND OF HAD A BASELINE OF EVENTS OF WHAT HAD ACTUALLY TRANSPIRED.

SO WHEN YOU START LOOKING INTO ORIGINAL SOURCES IN ALL ITS QUICK TO MAYBE BE ABLE TO SORT THROUGH THAT DISMISS SOMEONE THAT YOU THINK OK THEY'RE SAYING THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO CREATE A CERTAIN NARRATIVE VERSUS PEOPLE THAT HAD RECOLLECTIONS IN GENERAL.

WHERE YOU HAD MORE THAN ONE PERSON MAYBE CLAIMING SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT WOULD SEEM TO HAVE SOME VERACITY TO IT SO YOU DID RESEARCH AT BAYLOR AND HERE AT 8AM AND THE CRUSHING LABOR RIGHTS SOMALIA AT MY RESEARCH INITIALLY BEGAN IN THE FORT WORTH LIBRARY JUST LOOKING AT THE ARCHIVES OF THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS EVENTUALLY CAME DOWN TO CUSHING HERE THE TEXAS COLLECTION AT BAYLOR UNIVERSITY WE ALSO WENT TO LIBRARIES AND GALVESTON TYLER AND DALLAS TRYING TO TRACK DOWN ANY ARTICLE ANY SOURCE THAT HAD ANYTHING THE REAL TREASURE TROVE THOUGH WAS THE DOCUMENTS HERE IN THE CUSHION LIBRARY IT TAKES A ZAYN HIM AND THEN SOME PRIVATE DOCUMENTS THAT THE SESSUMS FAMILY WAS ABLE TO GIVE ME PERMISSION TO USE NAMELY PINKERTON DETECTIVE HIS PRIVATE NOTES FROM AN INVESTIGATION THAT FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES WAS TOTALLY UNKNOWN ABOUT NO ONE KNEW THAT THIS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED PROBABLY THE LAST 70 OR 80 YEARS.

NO WONDER THAT A PINKERTON AGENT HAD BEEN AROUND WACO SNIFFING AROUND FOR A KILLER SO I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED THE FAMILY I WANTED TO ASK ARE YOU STILL HAVE A LIVING RELATIVES AND HOW INVOLVED AND HOW AWARE OF THIS PROJECT.

ARE THEY.

SO ON THE SECOND PERSON THAT I'M AWARE OF THAT TRIED TO TRACK THE SYSTEMS FAMILY DOWN THEY WERE PROMINENT FAMILY IN DALLAS NOT NOT AN ELITE FAMILY ARE SO THAT THEY HAD A LARGE CLAN THERE THE FATHER OF THE BOY THAT WAS KILLED WAS A WELL-KNOWN GENERAL CONTRACTOR BY THE END OF HIS LIFE IN THE 1940S AND SO YOU HAD A LARGE FAMILY THERE THAT NOW IT'S HARD TO FIND ANYONE BY THAT NAME AND SO THERE WAS A JOURNALIST IN DALLAS KEVIN SHERRINGTON WITH THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS WHO HAD TRIED TO TRACK THEM DOWN AND COULDN'T FIND ANYBODY AND IT WAS ACTUALLY THROUGH A DISCUSSION BOARD ON A TEXAS ZAYN HIM FAN BOARD THAT SOMEONE HAD REACHED OUT.

TO KEVIN AND THAT GENTLEMAN WAS A SESSUMS HE WAS ACTUALLY A NEPHEW OF THE BOY THAT WAS SLAIN AND HIS FAMILY WAS LIVING IN NORTH CAROLINA AT THE TIME SO I WAS ABLE TO TRACK THE FAMILY DOWN AS WELL NORTH CAROLINA BASED OFF OF WHAT I SAW.

FROM THAT ONE POSTS ON THAT MESSAGE BOARD AND I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH.

NOW WITH TWO OTHER RELATIVES AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK AS WELL AND SEEM TO BE QUITE PLEASED WITH THE STORY THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE STORY THEY KNEW OF THE STORY THEY KNEW SOME OF THE MYTHS AROUND THE STORY.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE TRUE STORY.

AND SO I WAS ABLE TO BRINGS REVELATION OF THEM ABOUT ONE OF THE RELATIVES.

I THINK WAS SATISFYING FOR THEM EVEN THOUGH IT WAS QUITE EMOTIONAL FOR THEM AS WELL.

WELL LET'S START BY TALKING ABOUT THE RIVALRY THE FOOTBALL RIVALRY YOU SPEND A GOOD TIME KIND OF TRYING TO GIVE A BACK STORY SO THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND HOW IT GOT TO THE POINT THAT THERE IS A RIOT.

SO HOW DO WE GO FROM I'M ASSUMING A PRETTY FRIENDLY SPORTSMANLIKE RIVALRY UP TO TENSIONS BEING SO HIGH THERE'S ACTUALLY AN ARTICLE BAYLOR SCHOOL NEWSPAPER CALLED THE LARIAT.

I BELIEVE IT WAS IN 1922 OR THEY SAID THAT BAYLOR'S STRONG FOR THE YANKEES AND THAT TAKES ZAYN HIM HAS A FRIEND IN BAYLOR AND SO CERTAINLY THERE WAS A VERY COLLEGIAL RIVALRY BEFORE THE EARLY 1920S SO THE RIVALRY GOES BACK TO 1899 AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED WITH CONFERENCE REALIGNMENT AND ALL THAT YOU'RE SEEING OLD ROBBERIES KIND OF TORN APART AND ONE THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE HAVE CONTINUED WOULD BE BAYLOR TEXAS ZAYN AND ROBBERY AND OTHER UTI ROBBERIES LARGER BUT WE HAD A VERY HEALTHY WHEN IT WAS THE SECOND MOST FREQUENTLY PLAY ROBBERY IN THE STATE OF TEXAS.

BY THE TIME THAT THE ROBBERY OSTENSIBLY ENDED IN 2011 AND SO THEY HAD MET OVER 100 TIMES DATING BACK TO 1899 WHEN 8:00 A.M.

WHEN 33 TO ZERO AND SO FOR ABOUT THE FIRST 20 YEARS OR SO.

THE SCHOOL'S MET INFREQUENTLY SOMETIMES THEY WOULD MEET THREE TIMES A YEAR AND THEN THE NEXT YEAR THEY MIGHT NOT MEET AT ALL AND SO USUALLY WHEN THEY GOT TOGETHER.

THERE WAS A LOT OF LOCAL INTEREST IT WAS A BIG GAME TO THEIR USE BIG GAME FOR THE BAYLOR BEARS BUT NO ONE ELSE OUTSIDE THAT REGION SEEMED TO BE INTERESTED AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IN 1916 THE TWO SCHOOLS AGREED TO MOVE THE RIVALRY TO AN OLD COMPLEX CALLED THE TEXAS COTTON PALACE AT THE TIME IT WAS RATHER NOONE WACO BUT NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HASN'T STOOD FOR 80 YEARS AND THAT TAKES US COTTON PALACE WAS A EARLY COMPETITOR LIKE THE TEXAS STATE FAIR UP IN DALLAS AND SO YOU HAD LITERALLY.

THERE WAS ONE DAY DURING WORLD WAR ONE WERE A HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN THOUSAND PEOPLE ATTENDED THE TEXAS GOTTEN PALACE GROUNDS ALONE.

SO YOU HAD A LOT OF EYES COMING FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU HAD A FOOTBALL GAME ON ONE OF THE BIGGEST STAGES IN THE SOUTHWEST AND THE GAME BEGAN TO INCREASE IN POPULARITY AND IM STILL DOMINATED THE SERIES FOR THE FIRST FEW GAMES OF THE AND PALACE AND THEN IN 1922 YOU HAD A BREAKTHROUGH OF THE YEAR OF THAT ARTICLE THAT YOU'VE GOT A FRIEND HERE AT BAYLOR FOR TEXAS ZAYN HIM ALL OF A SUDDEN BAYLOR WINS A GAME AND THEY GO INTO WHEN THE CONFERENCE TABLE THAT YEAR AND YOU START TO SEE FRACTURES IN THE RELATIONSHIP SAYS THE GAME BECAME MORE COMPETITIVE AS IT WAS UNDER GREATER SPOTLIGHT YOU BEGIN TO SEE THE RELATIONS DETERIORATE BETWEEN THE TWO STUDENT BODIES AND HOW DID THAT LEAD TO THIS RIGHT.

WHAT HAPPENED THAT YEAR SO TWO YEARS BEFORE THERE HAD BEEN A NEAR RIOT.

WHEN BAYLOR HAD USED A FORD THEY CALLED IT THE FAMOUS BUCKING FORD'S THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS KNOWN TO THE STUDENTS BAYLOR AND THEY BROUGHT IT OUT DURING HALFTIME PERFORMANCE AND IT DROVE AROUND THE FIELD ON THE BACK.

THEY HAD A BARREL PAINTED LANKA AND THE TEXAS 8AM COLORS AND YOU HAD A BAYLOR COWBOY RIDING THE AGGIE POSSIBLY TO VICTORY AND THE CAR SWERVED AND ALMOST HIT A COUPLE OF THE AND AND PLAYERS WHO ARE ON THE SIDELINE DURING HALFTIME TEAMS THAT NECESSARILY GO TO DRESSING ROOMS AND VACATE THE WHOLE STADIUM DURING HALFTIME AND SO YOU ALMOST HAD A REACTION FROM AYHAM SAID AT THE TIME THEY SHOWED EXTREME RESTRAINT BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU STARTED SAYING OK WE'RE NOW LOOKING FOR TROUBLE FOR BOTH SIDES.

THEY KNEW IT WAS DETERIORATING AND ALL YOU NEEDED WAS A MINOR PROVOCATION.

AND SO WHAT HAPPENED IN 1926 IS YOU HAD ANOTHER FORD COME OUT ON THE FIELD AND YOU HAD SOME LADIES FROM BAYLOR THAT WERE DRESSED IN A PERIOD PIECES OF YEARS WERE BAYLOR HAD HAD A MAJOR VICTORY GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO LITERALLY 1896 BEFORE BAYLOR PLAYED VARSITY FOOTBALL YOU HAD A YOUNG LADY WITH A SIGN WITH THAT YEAR AND OTHER YEARS WITH BIG SCORES ON IT AND THE AGM CHEERING SECTION OF THE STUDENT BODY THAT YEAR TOOK THAT AS A PROVOCATION WHEN THE CAR ACROSS THE 50 YARD LINE IN FRONT OF THEIR CHEERING SECTION THAT IT PARKING BACK TO THE TAUNTS THAT MAYBE THEY HAD FROM TWO YEARS EARLIER WITH AFFORDED ALMOST STRUCK THEIR PLAYERS AND THAT'S WHERE HE HAD AN OVERREACTION OF ALL SIDES AND YOU HAD ALL THE STUDENTS POOR ONTO THE FIELD AND WHAT HAPPENED.

WHAT HAPPENED TO CHARLIE AND THAT RIGHT SO THIS IS ONE OF THE MYTHS THAT HAS BEEN OUT THERE FOR 92 YEARS THERE WAS AN ARTICLE.

BACK AT THE TIME.

THERE'S ONE OF THE BRIAN.

I BELIEVE IT WAS ALSO THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS WHAT WAS MENTIONED THAT THERE WAS A TESTIMONY THAT CHARLIE HAD ACTUALLY GONE ON THE FIELD TO HELP ESCORT ONE OF THE BAYLOR WOMEN OFF THE FILLED OUT OF THE FRAY OUT OF THE MELEE AND BACK TO SAFETY AND THAT STORY ACTUALLY REACHED HIS FATHER UP IN DALLAS AND HIS FATHER REPEATED IT TO THE MEDIA.

BUT WE ACTUALLY HAVE TESTIMONY FROM AN INVESTIGATION CONDUCTED AT 6:00 A.M.

OF A GENTLEMAN NAMED EGO VANCE WHO WAS ANOTHER CADET AS WELL AND HE WAS WITH CHARLIE FROM THAT MORNING ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL THE POINT WHEN THE FIGHT BEGAN AND THEY LEFT THE STANDS TOGETHER AND WE KNOW DEFINITIVELY FROM HIS HE ACTUALLY WENT TO JOIN IN THE FUN.

HE WENT TO DEFEND HIS HIS FELLOW CADETS THAT WERE WERE MIXED UP IN THE FRAME AND IT WAS WHEN HE WAS IN THAT FIGHT THAT PURSUER SWUNG AT HIM WITH WHAT WAS A PIECE OF A WOODEN CHAIR.

HE WAS ABLE TO TO BLOCK OFF A COUPLE OF BLOWS.

AND THE THIRD ONE LANDED ON THE SIDE OF A SAID CAUSED A FRACTURE IN HIS SCHOOL THAT PRECIPITATED HIS DEATH.

THE NEXT MORNING.

SO YES.

WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS THERE'S THIS RIOT STUDENT IS A GREAT PREVIOUSLY INJURED THEY DON'T KNOW THAT HE'S GOING TO DIE BUT HE'S VERY.

HE'S TAKEN TO A HOSPITAL IMMEDIATELY.

THE GAME CONTINUES.

THEY HAD THE SECOND HALF OF A FOOTBALL GAME I CAN IMAGINE IF YOU HAD A RIGHT THAT SIZE TODAY THEY CALL THE GAME.

SURE.

YOU KNOW THAT THEY WOULDN'T TAKE THE RISK THAT THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANOTHER OUTBREAK OF VIOLENCE BEFORE THE BUZZER WHAT YOU DID HAVE THOSE THE HEAD AGGIE YOUNG LEADER AT THE TIME.

CAME AND APOLOGIZE TO THE WAY WE'RE FANS BECAUSE AT THAT TIME WAS OBVIOUS THAT A COUPLE OF CADETS GOING ON THE FIELD HAD BEEN THE FIRST THING THAT REALLY INSTIGATED THE RUSH ONTO THE FIELD TO BOLSTER THE BODIES AND THEN HE WENT OVER TO THE ATRIUM CHEERING SECTION AND HE MADE ALL THE CADETS PLEDGED THAT NOT ONLY WOULD THEY STAY IN THEIR SEATS FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE GAME BUT THEY WOULD STAY THERE FOR 30 MINUTES AFTER THE GAME TO ALLOW THE STADIUM.

TIME TO EMPTY BEYOND THAT THOUGH ALSO YOU HAD WHEN THE GAME WAS OVER IN THE STADIUM EMPTIED EVERYONE THAT WENT ONTO THE STREETS OF WACO THIS WAS A FESTIVE DAY THIS WAS HOMECOMING BAYLOR YOU HAD LARGE CROWDS ALL OVER THE CITY OVER 80 PEOPLE HAD COME TO THE COTTON PALACE AT A TIME WHEN WACO'S POPULATION WAS LESS THAN 40000.

SO YOU KNOW ALL OF YOUR RESTAURANTS ON THE STREETS EVERYTHING YOU WOULD THINK WOULD JUST BE TEEMING WITH PEOPLE AND YET THERE WERE NO OTHER INSTANCE EVEN DOWNTOWN AND IN FACT THERE'S A QUOTE FROM THE HEAD.

LATER THAT HE SAID THAT EVEN THE CADETS SEEMED TO BE IN GOOD HUMOR EVENING BECAUSE NO ONE KNEW AT THAT POINT WHAT WAS COMING.

THERE WERE FEW THAT KNEW THAT CHARLIE HAD BEEN TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL THERE IN WACO BUT THERE'S A GENERAL SENSE THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE GRAVE DANGER THAT HE WAS IN AND NO ONE EXPECTED HIM TO DIE I THINK YOU EVEN HAVE SOMETHING FROM THE STUDENT PAPER AND BAYLOR THAT THEY JUST KIND OF THOUGHT IT WAS A BLIP IT WAS A LITTLE MORE AND THE OTHER WISE PERFECT DAY SO NOBODY HAD ANY IDEA WHAT THIS IS GOING TO TURN INTO ACTUALLY NAME CHAPTER FOR A PERFECT DAY FROM FROM A QUOTE THAT THEY WERE SAYING IF NOT FOR THE 10 MINUTE INTERRUPTION AT HALFTIME THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT DAY AND EVERYTHING WAS EVEN THE WHETHER THE WEATHER WAS SPECTACULAR THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO RAIN RAIN FOR A FEW DAYS AFTERWARDS BUT THAT THE CLOUDS CLEARED OUT BY KICKOFF TIME IT WAS ABOUT 70 DEGREES WHICH WE KNOW IN CENTRAL TEXAS MIGHT STILL BE ON A LITTLE OF THE WARM SIDE DEPENDING ON HUMIDITY THERE BUT IT WAS A PERFECT DAY FOR WHAT YOU WOULD WANT FOR FOOTBALL GAME AND YOU HAVE LARGE CROWDS YOU HAD FESTIVAL ENVIRONMENTS STUFF LIKE THAT AND THERE WAS NO NEED FOR SOMEONE TO DIE AT A GAME THAT DAY SO I GUESS THE NEXT MORNING IS WHEN THE ROOSTERS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST BECAUSE HIS PARENTS ARRIVED FROM DALLAS THEY'VE BEEN THEY'VE BEEN TOLD ABOUT THIS ACCIDENT BUT THEY DON'T GET THERE IN TIME THEY ARRIVE TO FIND OUT THAT THERE ARE SOME HAS PASSED AWAY WELL WE DON'T KNOW AS WE DON'T KNOW HOW THE PARENTS WERE NOTIFIED WHO NOTIFY THEM WE KNOW HE HAD A BROTHER IN THE COURSE.

WELL THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO GRADUATE WITH HIM THAT THAT COMING SPRING AND SO THE NEXT TIME THAT WE SEE EVERYBODY EVERYBODY WHO'S IN WAKE OF THE PARENTS HAVE COME DOWN FROM DALLAS HIS BROTHER'S COME UP FROM COLLEGE STATION AND THE PARENTS WE DO KNOW FROM A COUPLE OF SOURCES WE'RE EXPECTING TO COME AND SEE THEIR SON.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT HE HAD DIED AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE TIME THAT IT WOULD TAKE IT WAS ABOUT A THREE HOUR RIDE ON THE INTO URBAN WHICH WAS AN ELECTORATE TRAIN BACK IN THOSE DAYS THAT WOULD BRING IT FROM DALLAS DOWN TO WAKE IT WAS ABOUT A THREE HOUR RIDE.

AND SO THEY ARRIVED ABOUT 130 THERE'S THERE'S SOME OTHER SOURCES SAY THEY WRAPPED AROUND NOON.

BUT WHEN YOU TAKE ALL THE OVENS TOGETHER IT'S QUITE OBVIOUS.

THEY GOT THERE ABOUT 130 SO THEY WOULD HAVE LEFT DALLAS ABOUT 10.

HE PASSED AWAY ABOUT AN HOUR BEFORE THAT.

AND SO SOMEONE HAD NOT GOTTEN THE NEWS TO THEM AND OF COURSE SHE DIDN'T HAVE NECESSARILY ALL THE PHONES THAT YOU HAVE NOW YOU CERTAINLY DIDN'T HAVE THE CELL TECHNOLOGY BUT YOU WOULD'VE THOUGHT A TELEGRAM OR SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REACH THEM.

PERHAPS IT WAS INTENDED TO NOT HAVE THEM UP SAID ON THE WAY DOWN AND SO ACTUALLY THE PRESIDENT BAYLOR WHO HAD ACTUALLY JUST ARRIVED BACK IN WACO.

HE HAD NOT BEEN ON HAND HE GOT BACK.

GOT TO BRIEFED ON WHAT HAD OCCURRED AND HIS FIRST TASK WAS TO CREATE THE PARENTS AND BREAK THE NEWS TO THEM THAT THE SUNDAY WERE COMING TO TAKE HOME TO HEAL WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO TAKE HOME AND BURY SO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

THERE'S A RESPONSE FROM BOTH SCHOOLS THEY TRY TO THE PRESIDENT'S OF ANCIENT BAYLOR COME TOGETHER TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO IN THIS MOMENT.

YES SO THE PRESIDENT BAYLOR SAMUEL PALMER BROOKS SUGGESTED IMMEDIATELY TO THE PRESIDENT TAKES AS 8AM T O WALTON THEY SHOULD HAVE A CONFERENCE AND SO JUST A FEW DAYS AFTER THE FIGHT THEY MET DOWN HERE IN COLLEGE STATION.

THERE WERE FOUR SEPARATE THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM EACH SCHOOL AND THEY TRIED TO IDENTIFY WHAT WERE THE SOURCES OF WHAT HAD CAUSED IT AND THEN HOW DO WE PROCEED SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANOTHER OUTBREAK OF VIOLENCE AND SO THEY ACTUALLY CAME UP WITH A JOINT STATEMENT THAT ASSIGN BLAME EQUALLY WHICH AT THE TIME DIDN'T SEEM TO PLEASE ANYBODY BUT IN RETROSPECT IT PROBABLY WAS THE WISEST COURSE FORWARD THEY WERE TRYING TO BRING PEACE BUT I GUESS THE STUDENTS AREN'T READY FOR THAT BECAUSE THE STUDENT BODY HAD BOTH I AM BOTH SCHOOLS HAD A BAD REACTION TO THEIR JOINT STATEMENT HAD A VERY BAD REACTION THE WORST REACTION WAS DEFINITELY FROM THE BAYLOR SIDE AND IN FACT YOU KNOW THE PERSON THAT SPEAKS FIRST YIELD THE FLOOR SO THAT THE FINAL WORD IS ABOUT THE PERSON THAT SPEAKS SECOND AND SO THEY KNEW HIM STUDENT BODY GOT TO SPEAK SECOND AND BASICALLY THEIR STORY WAS THAT WE WERE WILLING TO LET THE ISSUE.

JUST PASS.

YOU KNOW WE HAD ACCEPTED WHAT HAD HAPPENED IT WAS TRAGIC IF BAYLOR HAD NOT ISSUED MORE PROFIT PROVOCATIVE STATEMENTS IN THE MEDIA BAYLOR ACTUALLY RUSHED OUT TO BE LISTED BONNIE DID A SPECIAL EDITION OF THE STUDENT PAPER THAT DAY AND IT LEVELED SOME CHARGES AGAINST HIM TRACING HOW THE RIVALRY HAD DETERIORATED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS AND REALLY CALLING HIM THE CONFERENCE BULLIES THAT WAS THE NAMES THAT THEY GAVE THEM AND THEY BROUGHT SOME OTHER EVIDENCE FROM SOME OTHER GAMES THAT OCCURRED THAT YEAR TRYING TO PAINT IT ALL IS JUST ABRAMS FAULT AND SO ONCE YOU HAD CROSS THAT BRIDGE THAT WE'RE REALLY WAS PROBABLY NO COMING BACK BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES.

SO THEN GOING FORWARD.

THERE WERE SEVERAL INVESTIGATIONS AFTER THE FACT.

SOME MAY BE MORE THOROUGH THAN OTHERS AND THEY WERE PUT ON UNSPONSORED AND PAID FOR BY VARIOUS GROUPS.

THERE WAS A AND N.M.

INVESTIGATION INTERNALLY.

THERE WAS AS YOU MENTIONED THE PINKERTON PINKERTON DETECTIVE WAS HIRED TO COME DOWN.

THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ANYTHING DONE BY THE WACO POLICE OR THE LOCAL ADMINISTRATION THEY'RE VERY SHOCKING SO FOR THE BAIL ASIDE.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT EASIER BECAUSE WE CAN QUANTIFY.

WE KNOW THAT AT SOME POINT THE PRESIDENT BAYLOR UNIVERSITY DR.

BROOKS AGAIN HAD SAID THAT HE HAD SPOKEN ABOUT 25 STUDENTS WHAT HE DIDN'T DO AS HE DIDN'T TAKE ANY NOTES AND HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY NAMES WIDOW DEFINITIVELY THERE ARE NO RECORDS AT LEAST OF ANY INVESTIGATION IN WACO.

I TALKED TO BOTH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THEY DON'T HAVE RECORDS FROM THAT TIME OF ANY INVESTIGATIONS IN GENERAL AND AND ALSO TALKED TO MCLENNAN COUNTY BECAUSE THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO THE CASE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PRESENTED TO THE GRAND JURY IN JANUARY OF THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

JUST A FEW MONTHS LATER AND THE COUNTY SO THEY DON'T HAVE A GRAND JURY RECORDS WHEN THERE ARE NO INDICTMENT STATING BACK THAT FAR BUT THERE IS A DETECTIVE THAT SPOKE TO THE PINKERTON DETECTIVE A WACO CITY DETECTIVE AND HE LET THE PINKERTON AGENT KNOW THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY DOING A COVERT INVESTIGATION ON HIS OWN.

WHICH TELLS US EVERYTHING WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THERE WAS NO INVESTIGATION INTO THE RIOT OR INTO THE DEATH WHICH IS WHY WE GET INTO.

I THINK WHAT MAKES IT VERY FASCINATING THAT THERE IS MAYBE A COVER UP OR A CONSPIRACY OR SOMETHING BEFORE IT HERE THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO INVESTIGATE WHAT WAS HAPPENING THERE THIS MEETING A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER THE RIOTS MAYBE EVEN ONE DAY AFTER THE RIOT.

WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE AT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IN WACO.

YOU HAD ALL THE IMPORTANT CITY OFFICIALS THERE YOU HAD AN IMPORTANT OFFICIALS ARE FROM BAYLOR UNIVERSITY.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS DISCUSSED AT THAT MEETING.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THE OUTCOME OF IT IS NOTHING HAPPENED AFTER THAT AND SO IT CERTAINLY RAISES YOUR EYEBROWS TO SAY OK WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE.

AND THEN WHEN YOU START HAVING THE PINKERTON DETECTIVE ASK AROUND TOWN HE STARTED TO PICK UP ON SOME EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS POSSIBLY A COVER UP EVEN IF IT WAS AN UNOFFICIAL MAYBE THERE WAS NO DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN CITY OFFICIALS AND SCHOOL OFFICIALS BUT CERTAINLY NO ONE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT AND A FEW PEOPLE THAT DID KNOW DIDN'T WANT TO DIVULGE EVERYTHING THAT THEY CLAIM THAT THEY KNEW SUCH AS MAYBE EVEN THAT IDENTITY OF THE KILLER.

NOW I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE ANYTHING AWAY BECAUSE I WANT PEOPLE TO READ THE BOOK BUT YOU HAVE YOU FOUND SOME INTERESTING EVIDENCE IN THE AGM ARCHIVES INCLUDING A DOCUMENT THAT CLAIMS TO HAVE NAMED THE KILLER THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REGULATORY BECAUSE AS SOON AS I HEARD ABOUT THE STORY WHILE THE FIRST QUESTION I HAVE IS.

DID ANYONE EVER GET CHARGED WITH KILLING DO WE KNOW WHO DID THIS.

AND THERE IS A TWO PAGE DOCUMENT HERE AT THE AGM ARCHIVES ITS ANONYMOUS THE AUTHOR DOESN'T SAY WHO HE IS HE ALSO SAYS HE HAS FOUR INFORMANTS BUT HE DOESN'T TELL YOU WHO THOSE PEOPLE ARE THEY WERE ALL PEOPLE IN WACO AND BUT HE LEVELS THE CHARGE AND HE NAMES AND NAME AND IT'S A VERY INTRIGUING NAME I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE SECOND OR THIRD PART OF THE BOOK THE SECOND HALF OF THE BOOK DETAILING WHO POSSIBLE SUSPECTS FOR SOME OF THE LEAD SUSPECTS AND I REALLY GET INTO THAT DOCUMENT IT'S IN A FOLDER DOWN HER CALLED THE BAYLOR INCIDENT AND THAT DOCUMENT CLAIMS THAT NAME A KILLER ODDLY ENOUGH THAT NAME COMES UP IN OTHER CONTEXTS AS WELL WITH THE PINKERTON DETECTIVE AS WELL.

AND THAT MAY NOT BE THAT IF YOU PUT FORTH AS YOU SAID SEVERAL LIKELY ARE POSSIBLE SUSPECTS AND THEN YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T YOU CAN'T DRAW A CONCLUSION BUT I THINK YOU'VE LEFT ENOUGH LITTLE CRUMBS THERE THAT MAYBE THE READERS CAN DRAW THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS YES.

SPOILER ALERT IS I DON'T TELL YOU WHO WERE KILLED.

THERE'S NO SMOKING GUN CONFESSION YOU KNOW NO DEATH BED CONFESS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT BUT THERE IS A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN EXAMINED PUBLICLY UNTIL THIS BOOK THAT I THINK GIVE US SOME GREAT CLUES AS TO WHO THE KILLER MOST LIKELY WAS IT IS FOR THE READER AND ODDLY ENOUGH I'VE HAD AN A.M.

GENTLEMAN ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK ALREADY THAT WASN'T TOTALLY CONVINCED HE'S KIND OF TORN BETWEEN TWO OF THE SUSPECTS THERE AND SO I LEAVE IT TOTALLY UP TO THE READER AND SIDE BECAUSE SINCE WE CAN'T DEFINITIVELY SAY I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE UNFAIR TO ACCUSE SOMEONE.

AFTER THEIR DEATH AND CLAIM THAT THEY WERE MURDER WHEN MAYBE THEY WEREN'T ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S NO JUST 100 PERCENT VERIFIABLE ARROW POINTING TO ANYONE.

WE'RE RUNNING A LITTLE LOW ON TIME BUT I DO WANT TO TAKE A MINUTE TO ASK YOU TO TALK ABOUT WHO CHARLIE WAYS.

I THINK HE GETS A LITTLE LOST IN THIS IN THIS MYTH IN THIS STORY BUT TELL US ABOUT HIM AS A PERSON.

SO I'M A HUGE FAN OF BIOGRAPHY.

AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE MOST SATISFYING THINGS HERE WAS TO BE ABLE TO CONNECT WITH WHO THAT PERSON WAS TO BE ABLE TO TELL HIS STORY FROM ALL THAT WE KNOW AND I WAS ABLE TO FIND INFORMATION FROM WHEN HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL HE WAS MAIN CHARACTER IN HIS SENIOR CLASS PROPHESYING ALL IN HIS HIGH SCHOOL ANNUAL AND JUST THE DIFFERENT TESTIMONY THAT WAS GIVEN ABOUT HIM AT THE END HIM INVESTIGATION.

HE WAS OBVIOUSLY A VERY LOVABLE INDIVIDUAL.

INDEFINITELY.

HERE AT THE UNIVERSITY AS WELL.

IT AIN'T IN COLLEGE AS IT WAS CALLED DURING THOSE DAYS AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY MAYBE HE WAS PREPARING FOR TWO YEARS MAYBE A CAREER IN ENGINEERING BECAUSE OF WHAT IS SUMMER JOB WAS THE YEAR BEFORE.

OR THE SUMMER BEFORE HE WAS KILLED AND JUST FROM EVERYTHING THAT THE FAMILY TELLS TOO.

HE WAS LOVED AND HE WAS GREATLY MISSED AFTER THIS.

AND IT LEFT TO A HOLE IN THAT FAMILY THAT ACTUALLY IN A WEIRD WAY SURVIVES.

TO THIS DAY GENERATIONS THAT HAVEN'T EVEN MET HIM BECAUSE HOW THE STORY HAS BEEN PASSED DOWN AND BECAUSE IT'S AN UNRESOLVED KILLING IT HAS LEFT THE WHOLE IN THEM THAT HE WAS THIS RELATIVE WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

YEAH I WOULD IMAGINE NOT HAVING AN ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS GOING TO A RIPPLE THROUGH OUT MULTIPLE GENERATIONS.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK THAT WAS WHAT IF THINGS ARE DEDICATED THE BOOK TO CHARLIE I BOARDED A KIND OF A RIFF ON THE LINE.

A RIFF IN A NEGATIVE WAY BUT BORDERLINE FROM A POEM THAT WAS WRITTEN TO HONOR HIM AFTER HE DIED THAT BASICALLY SAYS NOW YOUR NAME WILL ALWAYS LIVE AND IT WAS FROM A POEM POEM CALLED THE AT THE 11TH HOUR.

THAT WAS IN THE 1927.

IT TAKES THE DATA IN YOUR BOOK THAT DEDICATED TO HIM ABOUT HIS DEATH THERE AND IT TALKED ABOUT THAT AND AND WOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER HIS NAME AND SO THIS WAS A WAY TO A LITTLE BIT OF IMMORTALIZED HIM IN THAT SENSE AND TO TELL HIS STORY AND A SMALL PIECE MAY BE BRINGING A LITTLE BIT OF JUSTICE AND WE GOT HIS PHOTOGRAPH ON THE COVER OF THE ABOVE WHICH I THINK IS A NICE.

NICE TOUCH TO JUST REMIND EVERYONE THAT AT THE FOREFRONT OF ALL THIS EXCITEMENT AND WHO DID IT AND MYSTERY?

THERE WAS A PERSON A YOUNG MAN WHO LOST HIS LIFE AND WE SHOULD REMEMBER HIM AND HONOR HIM AND TAKE CARE OF HIS MEMORY.

SO WE'VE GOT JUST ABOUT TWO MINUTES LEFT DO YOU WANT TO TELL HOW CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU HOPE TO TAKE AWAY FROM THIS BOOK ABOUT PEOPLE REMEMBER ABOUT IT ONE THING I WOULD JUST SAY AS IT SHOULD BE KIND OF A MORAL LISTEN FOR ANY COLLEGE FOOTBALL FAN TO SAY KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE.

IT'S JUST A GAME.

THERE WAS ACTUALLY AN EDITORIAL WRITTEN IN THOSE DAYS SHORTLY AFTER FIVE THAT SAID NO ONE SHOULD DIE AS A CONSEQUENCE OF A FOOTBALL GAME AND I THINK THAT'S ONE THING I WOULD SAY THE BOOK WOULD SPEAK TO ANYONE THAT LIKES TEXAS HISTORY BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF HISTORY IN THE EARLY PART DEFINITELY SPORTS HISTORY THE TWO BUT I WOULD THINK THAT THAT SOMEONE THAT LIKES BIOGRAPHY WILL HAVE THE HUMAN ELEMENT OF THE STORY THERE ABOUT CHARLIE AND I HOPE THAT PEOPLE WOULD JUST KIND OF TAKE AWAY THAT YOU KNOW THIS WAS A YOUNG MAN HAD A PROMISING FUTURE SHOULD NOT DIED THAT DAY AND THAT WE NEED TO LOOK GAMES JUST REMAIN GAMES NOT TAKING TOO SERIOUSLY.

I THINK THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT ADVICE ESPECIALLY DURING FOOTBALL SEASON.

ABSOLUTELY.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR PREACHING THE MESSAGE OF PEACE AND GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

THIS BOOK IS FASCINATING.

I BEEN RECOMMENDING IT TO PEOPLE AND EVERYBODY GOES OH THAT SOUNDS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT IT DOES IT'S A GOOD.

IT'S A GOOD HISTORY GOOD AGGIE HISTORY STORY AND A GOOD BAYLOR HISTORY STORY.

IT IS YES.

BOTH SCHOOLS TO TAKE PRIDE.

YES IT'S A BUILDING BACK THAT BRIDGE I THINK ABSOLUTE SO THE BOOK AGAIN IS BATTLE OF THE PROCESS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

AND I WILL