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I'm David Nazar.

As L.A. metro continues to carve out the best possible future for Los Angeles and beyond, this massive transportation system is met with overwhelming safety challenges.

As crime continues to increase on metro trains and busses.

L.A. Metro is dealing with everything from violent crimes and fare evasion to homelessness and a lack of police presence.

Is there a solution to a problem that has many Metro riders now fearing for their own safety?

We're going to find out in just a moment.

First, though, for some context, earlier this year we interviewed many writers and here's what just some of them told us.

You see a lot of behavior that I have seen, like people just be very argumentative, random fighting, breaking out.

I won't ride the train alone.

I will make some work with somebody else.

I feel like I've seen at least, like, two robberies.

Definitely going on the train or like, people fighting, like on the train itself.

I'm concerned about the safety for me and for others.

And you have to watch everything around you.

And that was just a sample of the many riders I spoke with that I continue to speak with as we continue to report on L.A. Metro.

And for more context, here are just a few of the many comments we've been getting on YouTube from our L.A. Metro investigation we reported on early this year.

Take a read.

The common theme of the comments are this.

The majority of riders say crime and safety is the major concern, and some of the riders and safety is the major concern, and some of the riders even say they're scared to take the trains and busses these days, even though they admit and busses these days, even though they admit Metro is a good transportation system for getting from one place to another.

And they say the convenience is great.

However, many riders say they're worried However, many riders say they're worried they're going to be the next crime victim.

With all the violence on Metro and there has been With all the violence on Metro and there has been increased crime on the transportation system.

According to the stats and various crime reports.

That's just the reality.

Well, Metro says they are listening to the concerns.

And these comments you're reading from the riders, listening loudly and clearly.

you're reading from the riders, listening loudly and clearly.

The transportation system, which began over a decade ago, is vital for the future of Los Angeles.

Metro knows that.

Riders know that.

And now L.A. Metro has a plan to develop their own in-house safety department, their own police force, so to speak, so Metro can finally improve security measures without having to rely so much on outside law enforcement sources, such as LAPD and the L.A. Sheriff's Department.

For more about this ambitious plan.

Here is my exclusive interview with L.A. Metro.

L.A. Metro CEO Stephanie Wiggins and L.A. Metro Deputy Chief of System Security and law Enforcement Robert Gummer.

Thank you both so much for being here.

Wonderful to be here, David.

We have so much to talk about.

Stephanie and Robert.

I know for the record, la metro is trying to bring the best and I say the best transportation system in the world to L.A. so later in the broadcast, we are going to talk about some of the ways both of you are trying to meet that goal first.

So obviously tragic news September 2024.

Basically, a man hijacked a metro bus at gunpoint, took the bus driver and a couple of passengers hostage, shot and killed a passenger.

Fortunately, LAPD got to the scene, apprehended the killer.

With that said, crime is out of control.

Many say on la metro.

Stephanie, explain the new plan to solve the crime situation, which is bad.

We can't walk that back.

Obviously, there are stabbings on the metro.

There are certainly tens of millions of people who rely on the great trains and busses.

This is what the largest county in the US.

It spans something like 4000mi.

So in your guys's defense, this is a lot of area, a lot of people to police, as you know.

Yet as I mentioned earlier, many riders say they're scared these days.

They're worried about the violent crimes on Metro, the homeless situation, the people jumping the gate there.

They're riding for free, and you've got to keep these riders safe.

So with that said, and thank you for that, Stephanie, give us an overview of the new plan to have your own sort of in-house police force, so to speak, your own law enforcement.

And also, if I'm not mistaken, you have a new weapon detection system.

So talk about that.

And then Robert can really give more of the security logistics.

Stephanie.

David, let me first say, and be clear that at Metro, we know that our customers and our employees deserve a safe ride, a safe place to work.

And that's our number one priority.

We are averaging more than 25 million trips a month on our system, where the second largest transit system in the country.

And as you noted, L.A. County is large.

We operate more than 2400 busses each day, serving 120 routes and over 13,000 bus stops, six different rail lines, over 100 miles of rail and 108 rail stations.

So our footprint is large and one incident is one to many on our system.

And there has been an uptick that we saw in the beginning of the year, not unlike our other partners across the country.

On violent incidents.

We do know, and we have this three point plan to address the crime that we're seeing on our system.

The first element is to increase the visible presence of uniformed personnel.

And we've been doing that.

We have a surge underway with law enforcement, our transit security, our ambassadors.

We're doing that because we know from our riders and employees that a more uniform presence you see on the system, it helps people feel safe.

The second area, though, is we're ensuring that we're intending for people who are using our system to use it for its purpose, which is transit, not sheltering, not for shelter, not fare evasion.

We're doing environmental design enhancements that Robert can talk more about, but really we call it enhancing access control.

We know from our riders and our employees.

Then when these controls are in place, it's a safer experience.

It's a cleaner metro.

So that's a second element to our safety plan.

And the third element is the overwhelming number of incidents on our system, David, or what we call quality of life issues.

And it's really simply a reflection that Metro does not operate on an island.

We are part of the community, and what happens on our city and county streets spills over into our system.

And the and the majority of incidents on our system are related to people sheltering on our system.

The opioid epidemic, untreated mental illness.

And those are issues that simply Metro cannot handle on our own.

And so our third element is really engaging our regional partners.

It takes a whole a government approach.

And as we take took a step back on those three initiatives that we became laser focused on starting in April of this year.

We know that there's also a longer term vision that we need to do to ensure a safer metro.

And when we looked at how we are growing as a network and we looked at the consistent challenges we've been have we've been experiencing, what we know is we value our partnership with our law enforcement partners, LAPD, the Sheriff Department and Long Beach.

We appreciate the officer's deep, attention and engagement, but there are consistent issues that we've had, and they only going to get exacerbated as we continue to grow.

We are not a static system.

We're in the middle of a rail revolution, and we continue to expand.

And so as we took the longer view, in addition, in parallel with dealing with immediate action, we realized when it was time to look at developing our own public safety department that's focused, that has a transit focus.

When we looked at the ten largest transit agencies in the country, David, six of them have their own in-house transit public safety department.

So we are committed to that.

We're in the process of that five year transition.

But in the meantime, we know as you opened with we have issues today that we urgently need to address.

So we're really excited that we're also looking at new technologies to help address the safety and security needs.

And one of them is weapons detection.

It's an increasing technology that's used in other forms and other industries, and we are beginning to explore how to do that at Metro.

And we're fortunate to have our outstanding deputy chief, Robert Gummer has experience with this technology and can talk further about the details.

What a perfect intro, Robert, based upon what Stephanie has said.

Yeah.

Give us more of the details of the logistics of the security detail to talk more about what's going to be taken place where security is concerned.

As we all are saying, some folks are scared to ride Metro, so give us an overview of that aspect of it.

Robert.

Thank you for the opportunity, Bill, to talk about all the efforts we're doing here at Metro.

You know, and I have one thing I want to go to call out, is that we have a very holistic approach to safety.

We have to, engage not only, the things that put, personnel.

Patrons aren't employees in unsafe positions, but we also have to engage what creates a deep concern, the perception that their experience is unsafe as they're going through our metro system.

Now, Stephanie, you know, so eloquently put down, you know, one of the challenges is, of a jury of our issues are suicidal in nature.

You know, so when we looked at, you know, the approaches that we have, currently underway now, we really have to look at it from multiple angles.

You know, one is, the increased physical presence.

So since May, we've had a public safety surge, and it's really increased engagement, increase visible presence of uniformed personnel.

And that's all of our public safety resources.

I think, oftentimes the media focuses on law enforcement, but it's more than that.

We have transit security, who focuses on code of conduct on our system.

We have our contract security, who's supporting our infrastructure protection.

But then we have a lot of care base resources.

They're strategically placed across our environment, to engage on issues such as homelessness and individuals experiencing mental health challenges.

But then, you know, last but not least, the importance of having and helping the experience of our riders is our transit ambassadors, which serve multiple, functions on our system.

First for wayfinding, helping, riders, you know, new rider sort system and current riders navigate the system, being data connected to our resources and with a variety of different resources that include the life program, which is available for riders, but they also serve as a critical eyes and ears of our system, looking at, some of the challenges that impact the perception of safety, specifically, it's not always just crime.

It could be the elevators broken.

The escalators don't work.

The station is too dark.

So Stephanie had talked about the environmental designs that we're doing inside the stations.

It's not just the impact crime.

You know, sometimes, the it's dual function.

So improving the lighting, not only improves experience as a rider, but also remove some of the areas that could be hideaways, for individuals thinking about doing illicit activity.

So I think it's it's critical to really think about it at large as a whole, of operations.

And that's really how we continue to look at it and grow and improve the system.

We also, utilize a lot of our data.

So understanding the nuances of our environment, so we could be better and more effective, and I could be everything from engaging our public, directly, through surveys or public engagement and looking through social media.

So understanding what the feedback is as we do engagements to riders.

You know, asking our employees who are out there every day, so we understand what they're doing, what their experiences and what they're seeing, and then also looking at things such that are crime stats, understanding the ebb and flow, of what's going on across the region or county and understanding how different things such as whether or, events changes the environment, of our communities, which impacts our community, our environment, for our actual transit system, you know, and understanding what that looks like year over year, month over month, and that allows us to better gauge how our resources are going to be deployed.

So with that, I do want to quickly transition to what was set up, this previously.

And that's the weapons detection, platforms.

So, Stephanie, you talked about, you know, have a lot of experience in that, that realm, it's kind of one of my, signature backgrounds, so to speak.

In this in particular, we've had a lot of challenges, over the past year and a half, with individuals coming on to our system, with handguns and sharp edged weapons.

It's unfortunate, and we know post-pandemic with a lot, I guess the rise of anti-social behavior, this has been an increasing, engagement between patrons, you know, and it doesn't take much to go from a dispute, to a, unfortunately, an escalated situation.

So what we're looking at right now, we're currently involved in, several 30 day low cost pilots, in which we're looking at a variety of different technologies that are out there, and we're trying to get the best of industry.

So we're looking at it from several different lenses.

So there's video analytics, and that's, specifically geared towards identifying individuals brandishing sharp edged weapons or handguns on a system using millimeter wave technology.

Very similar to what you see in the airport.

That allows, a video analytics software or a system to detect whether or not you have a hidden handgun, or short range weapon, on your person, as you're traveling through our system.

And then there's the what you would more traditionally see when you go to an event, or venue these days, that's the dual lane weapons detection.

They've gotten really good.

It's not just like what you see the airport when you're stopping and pause and you're getting scanned.

Now, these the new software really allows you to walk through and it's passed to not really impeding your movement unless the text, you having a potential weapon on your person, and then you go to secondary screen.

What we're trying to do right now is really understand, what systems work and don't work for our system, such as ours.

We have, you know, you know, 25 million, boardings per month.

So there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of personnel.

So you have to find kind of a good middle ground.

What we're dignifying, and removing and hopefully deterring, sharpened weapons and hand guns recon on our system, but at the same time ensuring that, our riders, commute is not being impeded, due to, just an added security measure.

You know, I think there's a comfortable balance, but we have to do these tests to really understand what's going to work best for our system.

Robert, for our viewers, Robert Gummer's a bit too humble.

Everybody knows Stephanie Wiegand.

She's gets interviewed a lot, and her resume speaks for itself.

I spent, about a half a day with, Robert Gummer at the Little Tokyo station, and got really a great tour of everything.

Robert Gummer has an amazing resume.

I want you, Robert.

Just take 30s.

We'll get back to Stephanie.

Would you tell our viewers why I have you on this program?

Your resume is amazing.

Just give a 32nd background because I want folks to know.

Yes, there's crime on the metro.

Yes, we're all kind of scared, but there are good people, such as the both of you who are taking care of us.

Share for our audience your background, which is insane.

Robert.

Well, I appreciate that.

David.

So just in summary, I had eight years in the military, a couple of tours, to Kosovo in Iraq.

I spent most of my career in the intelligence field, teaching it, for a number of years, before I joined the FBI, where I worked, essentially every type of violation, from counter-terrorism to white collar crime to, you know, cyber security, I was able to get into the technology space, where I manage the FBI analytic portfolio.

So that's all there.

Big data and geospatial tools.

For about two years, I left the FBI, as their expert on emerging technology.

So that's why video analytics, all these kind of things, are my passion projects.

I love them, but then I had the unique opportunity to build, the National Football League's first global security operations center and your intelligence program.

And those efforts have revolutionized, a lot of how, operations and our support sports, and how intelligence, allows you to get ahead of the global threats.

And that's a humble brag since you set it up now, there are articles out there of how, the efforts of my team, at my last at the NFL, helped the NFL come out of the pandemic, and they were actually the only sports league who was able to have a full season, in 2020.

So coming here, coming to L.A. Metro, it's been a great opportunity because it's like all of the things I've learned throughout my career have all come to bear.

Now, with one of the greatest challenges, I think, you know, of our current generation dealing with the cascading impacts of the pandemic.

You know, as we prep for major global events, you know, and, you know, try to get us to a point where we have a system for writers and employees, and the world is proud of.

And we're trying to get to be world class.

Stephanie, the other thing I want to say, and again, I should not editorialize, but I do appreciate that you folks do not run from this issue, and that's just a fact.

You acknowledge a crime you take on this issue.

Yes.

You get a lot of negative news media where crime is concerned.

And I'm not going to walk this back.

It's fair that you deserve some negative press, but what you don't deserve is too much negative press because I don't think people put everything into context.

There is so much going on with Metro, so much more than just the crime that we keep hearing about every day.

For example, I was reading Metro.

If I'm not mistaken, you guys were recently awarded what was a $900 million grant from the US Department of Transportation to help fund what is it?

The the East San Fernando Valley Light Rail Transit project.

I mention this because for folks who don't know Los Angeles, and we have a lot of viewers outside the Southern California area, I'm a Cal State Northridge grad, and I know when I was in the San Fernando Valley, we all feel somewhat disconnected from LA.

This project is probably important because this another project is sort of bridging all of LA together for the future.

So, Stephanie, talk about that.

Sure.

We're really proud of the partnership that we have with the federal government, in providing the funding that really completes the funding package.

I think it's currently estimated to cost around $3.5 billion to extend rail further into the valley.

And so this will be about seven miles of new light rail, largely down Van Nuys Boulevard, and really connecting more of the valley to our Orange line, our bus rapid transit, as well as our our red line.

So we're really excited about that.

It's a long time coming for the Valley and what we know about all of our infrastructure projects.

We built communities.

It's not just building the tracks, they're transformational.

Not only the jobs that they bring during the construction, but also the economic benefit and long lasting, benefit after the rail line opens.

And we know for a long time, particularly in an area like this, where there's been under investment in infrastructure, that this will be transformative.

We're really excited about it.

And so you mentioned something very important, David Metro is a multifaceted organization that has to chew gum and walk at the same time.

We have to be dealing with what's happening in the moment, as well as planning for future and building for future.

Even with a prominent project like the San Fernando Valley, it doesn't deter us from our number one priority, which is safety.

Safety existing for our workforce and our riders today, as well as, the safe way we build, design and build build projects.

And so, yes, we're very excited about the progress.

And that would not have happened without local residents actually voting to tax themselves for transportation projects that, as a result of our local sales tax measures, are able to attract additional federal and state dollars.

And that's what happened here, for the Valley project.

So we're really excited about that.

And stay tuned, for when we have our formal groundbreaking now that we got the big check.

You know, I do take the, the trains once in a while.

It's pretty crazy.

I mean, you've built completely a city underneath the city.

It wasn't like New York or Chicago or Boston, right?

I mean, they're building their cities simultaneously with this transportation.

It wasn't easy here in L.A., just take one segment of Los Angeles Wilshire Boulevard, for example.

Again, for viewers unfamiliar with the L.A. area, well, sure, it's sort of this main iconic thoroughfare that connects downtown L.A. through what's known as a Mid Wilshire area, then on to West LA, Santa Monica.

Then you're in the Pacific Ocean.

This is a massive swath of L.A. geography.

My question is this.

And I always forget to ask both of you this and all the times I've interviewed you.

What happens if we're sitting on one of those trains far underground and we get that massive earthquake that all the seismologists predict?

Are we safe?

Because there's something like 200 fault lines underneath L.A. and Southern California.

Robert.

There are, So one thing I will say.

So one of my portfolios that we have is emergency management, you know, so we have a variety of different tools and protocols, to handle emergencies, you know, Swat the Valley.

We have emergency supplies at all of our locations.

But we also have extensive training.

There's this shakeout, you know, every year, in which we make sure all of our staff know exactly what to do in the event of an earthquake.

We also have a sheet caste system, that allows us to, have an alert and notification, to all of our staff, all of our trains, all of our moving busses, usually, with a early warning before an earthquake actually happens.

And we have a very robust protocol that allows us to, reconstitute and recover any of our resources.

So obviously, earthquakes happen quite frequently, in this area, you know, and I'm confident, you know, that we have the protocols and process in place, to be able to handle that and ensure that our riders and employees are safe, don't have those kind of events.

And, David, if I could add, we have when we have earthquakes, ironically, the safest place to be in LA is on our subway underground, and in actuality, and 93 when we opened our first subway line the year later, was a devastating Northridge earthquake.

You might have remembered no issues with our subway, and in fact, there have been many other earthquakes, as you know, since since 1994, no issues with our subway.

That's because we take very seriously this is earthquake country.

And and for that Wilshire segment that you talked about, there was so many concerns by the community, understandably, about whether it would be safe to construct a subway underground for a number of reasons.

We have convened and, what we call our Tap team, but it's, three tunnel experts, the best in the country that review our designs, give us advice on construction, and then monitor the construction to make sure it's being built as designed.

So we're very fortunate that we have the availability of that outside expertise.

But you know what I can think of even recently, a few earthquakes above ground and a high rise.

And, I was rolling, you know, because it was it was a retrofit for earthquake safety.

But in fact, the safest place to be is underground.

What is the final message you have for our viewers, regarding Metro, whether it's about crime, safety or just the future of LA?

Well, I think the future of LA and LA metro is bright.

One of the reasons I know it's bright, because we are not taking our eye off the ball of safety and security.

The improvements that we are implementing are making a difference.

The plans to develop our own in-house public safety department means that we will be bringing in crisis intervention specialists, ambassadors, other personnel in response to what our riders and workforce wants to see on our system.

And we know what the growth adding lines, adding to San Fernando Valley, adding lines to UCLA and other places we know we're headed in the right direction to support even the 2026 World Cup and 2028 games, because, David, year after year, I'm sorry, year after year, month after month, we're seeing that ridership growth and we continue to see it every day.

So we appreciate the confidence that our riders have and our system.

And that's what keeps me hopeful, because I know our efforts are working.

And riders should appreciate both of you.

Stephanie Wiggins, CEO of L.A. Metro and Metro Deputy Chief Robert Gummer, thank you both so much for being here.

Return guest I should add now, for more information about our program, just click on KLCS.org and then click contact Us to send us your questions or comments, even your story ideas, so we can hear from you or you know, you can contact me directly at DavidNazarNews all one word or just go to David?NazarNews on YouTube, that's my channel.

Let me know what concerns and you know I'll get back with you.

And be sure to catch our program here on PBS or catch us on the PBS app.

Thanks so much for joining us.

I'm David Nazar.

Hello.

Thanks for joining us.

For sustaining us here on Cox Public Media.

I'm David Huizar.

The issue of race in Americ can be complicated these days.

Some believe racism i very prevalent in our society.

Others sa racism is a thing of the past.

And then you have some Americans who simply voice even just a hint of being critical of racial justice policies, and they can be labeled a racist.

Why is that?

Is this fair?

Unfair?

We're going to discuss this dichotomy.

We're going to talk about the racism argument used in both politics and the media and other related racial issues, as well.

And joining m now to discuss the issue of race in America are the co-hosts of the very popular Healing Race podcast Todd Levinson and Andre Thomas.

Prior to their podcast, Todd Levinson designed various programs to help communities all over the US promote more solutions with less Partizan politics.

Todd also helped create local, state, and national workforce policies to help Americans find better career skills.

Andre Thomas, the other co-hosts of the Healing Rac podcast, is a tech enthusiast.

Andre has over 20 years of corporate experience in the ops fields, product development and data analytics for various fortune 500 companies.

Thank you both so much for being here.

Great to be here David.

What's up David.

Hey Andre and Todd.

Thank you both.

Now, listen, I want to begin talk about your background, how you met each other and then what was the reason for personally beginning this new podcast, Healing Race?

Todd.

And then to Andre.

Yeah we met as roommates in college.

So we got randomly paired together and out of that grew and almost now 30 year close friendship.

Amid, you know, in 2020, amid the racial reckoning and backlash that happened at that time, I all of a sudden had the realization that we had never, ever, in almost 25 years at that poin had a conversation about race.

And I had to wonder, is that part of the problem, or is it part of the solution?

And what I came to realiz is that if we don't have honest, open conversations about the views that we have, the experiences that we have, how can we navigate and solve the racial challenges that so divide, us and create so much conflict?

And so began our, you know, conversation.

We started recording conversations so that people could see what a conversation that is open, real, honest, constructive could look like.

And now we bring on guests, random people having conversations so that we show that anyone can have this conversation and have it be meaningful productive, and move us toward a better place.

Under the same question for you, your background, your relationship with Todd, and certainly why you began the Healing Race podcast?

Sure.

I met Todd here.

There I was a Texan, had been admitted to the university and never set on toe in the state of California until that day.

I literally showed up for orientation.

So it was all new to me.

And I walked into a room and saw this white man and thought to myself, well, this will be interesting.

I wonder how this will go.

And like Todd said, nearly 38 to 38, we're not that old.

30 years later, with his sparked and intellectual and very thriving friendship between the two of us.

And then he approached me and I want to say early 2021 to start this podcast.

You know, the quote unquote talk about race.

And my first reaction, is he for real?

And then my second reaction is, I really don't feel like getting into all of this.

I'm going through a pandemic, whatever.

But, you know, when you talk to yourself off the ledge and things in life, I said to myself, if he really wants to know an he's earnest in his intention, then I will, you know, share my feelings about race in Americ and how it has impacted my life.

Amazing.

Now, before we further our discussion, because we're going to delve into several issues, we took our cameras to the streets to follow the both of you around as you took your Healing Race podcasts on the road, so to speak.

All throughout Southern California.

And here is some of that video.

And.

Talk to.

Excuse me.

PBS is, is is featuring our show called Healing Race.

And we're all about kind of having an open, positive, constructive conversations about race in the country and how we improve this race.

Would you would you be open to a conversation?

Yeah, but there's no such thing as race.

It was created.

It's a concept.

Was it was created.

Yeah.

Separate people.

And you think so?

Do you think in the country people do treat each other based on.

The idea of.

Race and how would you.

Well, politically, yes.

Okay.

Because it's it's it's a divisional system is same thing religion.

I was originally raised colorblin and it took me a while to learn.

That's not a good thing.

Why do you think it's not a good thing?

Because the fact that I, as a Caucasian man, woman, I can't be blind to the fact that if there's someon pulled over by a police officer, I should stop because I'm going to be a witness.

And I can assume that if I'm colorblind, that that person is going to go through the same experience as me.

You just have to recognize the fact that we do have inequities.

That if you're colorblind, then you're just ignorant to the fact that there are things that other people go through that we don't, and we really can't be an ally if we can't recognize that it's not just, you know, someone is a different skin color.

If someone has a different skin color, so they have a whole life, different experiences than I would have.

You know, have you had conversations about race.

In your own life?

Well, I have, but for the most part, it's been an internal conversation on how to accept what's happening.

How to understand it, learn from it.

Yeah.

And then reflect that back out to the people that I interact with on a daily basis.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

If you had a chance to sit down in kind of a multi diverse, multiracial group and ask any questio within your race or across race.

What.

What would be the most burning questions, you knew you were going to be met by curiosity and openness from you know, rather than blowback.

Right.

What would you ask?

What would you want to know more about or discuss more cultural differences?

Well, or specifically, yeah the family interactions within.

Okay.

Whether or not would you want to know more about how black into a black family interactions?

I believe I would, but also let's not discount the rest of the entire world.

Yeah.

And learning how they do it and all of various cultures things.

Yeah.

Totally.

Totally.

Yeah.

And what makes you curious about that?

Why do you think having the conversation about how we culturally interact would make a difference would be meaningful for you?

I'll repost that.

Yeah.

And then having the opportunity to no only talk to the black culture and see how they feel.

Yeah.

See their side.

Yeah.

There's also the opportunity to talk to folks in Europe.

In the Middle East and Africa.

Yeah.

And find out how we ar affecting them and vice versa.

Yeah.

So it's a worldwide perspectiv and results in a great person.

Yeah.

Because it's not a small piece of the pie.

It's trying to present the whole time.

What are some of the internal conversation like you've had with yourself.

And maybe some of that tension that has been brought up?

That's a great question because I think a lot of people ask that of themselves.

Yes, a lot of people fail to understand that, or they put it by the wayside because life can get in the way it does family, children, immediate needs.

Yes.

But I think once you have the opportunity to.

Take that big step back.

Yeah.

And take the time for yourself to try and learn, to try and understan and try and reflect that.

Yes.

I do not like that.

We always have to have the race talk like it gets bothersome over time.

Does.

Okay.

You have your sons.

Have you had the race time with your son?

I have, especially my oldest son right now.

And we just moved to this area.

So more so.

Yes.

Gang talk and then, like, race.

What did you say in the race?

Stop the race talk is always treat people how you want to be treated.

Make sure that we're spreading love.

If someone is different, you know, it's okay.

Like, i differences are okay to share.

In your experience.

Have you.

Do you have conversations abou race across across the racial.

Divide?

Do you have white friends?

Group of people?

Yeah.

And you guys talk about this kind of stuff with your wife.

Why not?

And I'm like, this is nothing like because this is my white friend.

And in 30 years, I was didn't even want to go there.

And I was like, fine, I'll, I was.

In some like would be a first for the white community.

Don't understand the black women.

But like a lot of time they don't understand how many black new black mothers black fathers have got killed over.

Yeah.

So thing or Trayvon Martin.

Yeah.

Few years ago that was.

Yes.

You know, like, I think that's why I'm so happy that this woman is under the carpet.

What's what's this?

You know, how do you feel about race relations in the country right now?

And the ability to have open dialog about it and the need for it, you know, your own.

Friend group.

If you have white friends or black.

I would say socially.

Yeah.

I think that we do have some.

You, professionally I think there's a lot of people that struggle.

Really?

Yeah.

Like within my industry and definitely.

Okay.

What is your industry?

So I work in mechanical extraction.

So, like construction industry.

But which is obviously.

Well, and where I'm from, it' it's predominantly white males.

All right.

My older males.

Yes.

Yeah.

A little bit of a sensitive topic where I think them to accept it.

Yeah.

Is it a conversation you tried to have.

Or is it.

Well, there's a so there's a big thing, I guess, the big initiative, you know, going on with me, I right.

So a lot of thos like table talk summarization, I mean, it's not, I guess personally, but, when we do come to the table, you know, everybody sit in, but there are some peopl who aren't really open to like, okay, that wasn't ignorant or uneducated on slavery.

So you have th times when you come to the table and you notice that there's discomfort, but then once you have the conversation, does it, does i go to a, a constructive place?

Do you feel like everyone.

Or do they shut down.

Open?

And I think.

It's well, I can be I think it can be both.

We can't be so quick to let the stereotypical judgments of what society has for us, Be that for us, okay?

Like we can control our own minds and thoughts, and we can't always think that other people think like us.

Yes, well, put yourself in other people's shoes.

They didn't have the same experiences.

Yeah, I'm saying that we didn't have the same experiences you had.

So I can't be mad for this guy just being more so.

It was genuine.

Yeah, it was just curiosity.

It was in this office.

Speculation of what he thought.

So he can't.

I can't be mad at that.

I didn't say no.

You know, it was a sign of the asking or anything like that.

So again, that's where we can we can have we can be the answer.

This generation talking about the video we just played for our viewers, some of the people you interviewed what your takeaways were, Andre.

And then to Todd.

We were in Venice Beach, which I had in my travels to California.

I never visited before.

It was a lovely place.

And one of the first participants, you know, really opened up, with about his experiences with race.

And I just expected the day to be kind of run of the mill sort of, you know, common arguments and, and things that I've heard about race over the years.

But he really started to unburden about his racial past in ways in which he had used racial epithets, the N-word specifically.

And then he was motivated to hug me.

And that, even as I sit here in this moment, was hugely validating.

And I and I told him I didn't, I don't, you know, don't need your acknowledgment, but thank you.

But then as I meditated on the day, I feel as though I did need the acknowledgment because he was a white person that saw me.

I endeavor in this exercise t to help people see how they are participants in this phenomenon that we call racism, right?

And black and white relations.

Even if you believe that it doesn't land at your doorstep, you are participating in it by virtue of being in this country.

And that doesn't necessarily mean you need to actively do something or all of a sudden become, you know, some super hyperactive ally.

But, you know, one of the simplest things a perso could do to help the situation and to start the conversation is just to acknowledge another person's emotional experience.

And that was absolutely amazing.

And my life is enriched by that day.

Just to build on what Andre said, you know, in terms of our participation in the way that race relations unfolds in the country, you saw two individuals, one white, one black.

Talk about reflecting on the ways that we respon when something racial comes up.

And I think, at the very least, we can all take ownership for the way that we are responding.

And whether as one of the whit male, the white male, you know, said, whether we're getting the whole pie, the whole set of experiences, that's the biggest thing that has come out of Andre and my conversation our conversations with guests, is that people are complicated, they're nuanced, and you may know a very little sliver of their beliefs about politics, about race, about society, but you know so littl about the depth of who they are and what drove them and led them and shaped them to have those views.

And what we've learned through understanding both each other and our guest is that people are complicated.

We had a white male conservative from the northeast area.

He the question that he brought to our show is, you know, I grew up in poverty.

I built a small business.

And when I hear that I have white privilege, it is hard for me to stomach.

Are you telling me that I have white privilege now?

He also brought up questions about Dei and the way that it's done now.

On the surface someone might have certain views of this individual, right, based on his objections.

But when you understand the background story and when they engage in real open conversation, you see one the the, the nuance behind his views and two, how much common ground there actually is when you get the whole story.

I hear this argument constantly.

Some people tell me we're talking about race too often, right?

In other words, is the word racist being overused?

Let's say, for example, in the media sphere with the identity politics, then there's also sort of this narrative.

And I know both of you have heard it.

If you support Donald Trump and MAGA or you believe in an America First agenda, you're all of a sudden automatically a racist if you believe in, let's say, for example, law and order, right?

More cops on the streets, you can be deemed a racist if you believe the migrant situatio at the border is out of control and you dare use the words illegal immigration, you're identified as racist.

Is this fear?

Andre?

Is the word racist overuse in the media, in the political discussion.

And then we'll get Todd's take on that.

A I recently heard the US poet laureate, Amanda Gorman, in, a poem cite that empathy is our emancipation and empathy is a 360 thing.

It's all the way around.

And for those who would try t indict others as you are racist, and this is a lesson I really had to learn, tha I was casually throwing around the word racist when a situation could have been racial, but I'm indicting a person's character and have a care with that word.

And I would say both.

When you have a care with your speech, you should also have a care with another person's experience and probably their pain.

And you should try to see life from their point of view.

You know, when you know race is an experience.

Sure thing.

In the United States.

And I recently told someone, when you don't see the needl move in your lived experience, it could feel as though nothing is happening.

And then out of the frustration, you want to lash out.

And that's wher that kind of community comes in.

Both your, you know, for me, I'm black, I self-identify as black, my black community in helping me feel bolstered and supported in life.

And also as I like to use the term talking yourself off the ledge such that you don't hav white people who are your enemy.

All the time.

So taking a beat and stepping back even because we can't control the media and how things are produced in what's said.

However, we can contro our reaction and the framework by which we listen and analyze what's coming to us.

And just that proactiv participation in your own life.

Really can help you evaluate what is something that's really racially motivated and requires, proportionate response versus other things in life.

And that does happen.

You know, I know with your podcast, you talk to so many Americans who, as Andre and I just talked about, as I mentioned, you know, they're kind of exhausted hearing the word racism, racist over and over again.

They argue because I talk to them when I'm on my stories.

You talk to the people on your podcast.

You know, it's kind of a narrative.

Maybe for progressive politicians, you could say with their identity politics argument, even those in the liberal medi who are real progressives, and they can often refer to anyon they disagree with as a racist.

As just the truth.

However, with that said, also on your podcast, I know both of you taught Andre.

You talk to many Americans who insist, listen, we cannot ignore the fact there are overt acts of racism today.

Certainly they argue things like what would policing with housing, job opportunities, what have you.

So, Todd and then back to you, Andre.

Todd, how do you balance out kind of this narrative, which is sort of, very differen depending upon who you talk to.

I get concerne that we have to make a choice.

Either we run away from race conversations, or our race conversations are about yelling and calling each other out.

And I think my question would be why can't we just have better, more meaningful, more human conversations?

I bet most of the viewers out there watching this right now want to see that.

And might actually participat if given the right environment where they kne it was going to be productive.

We had an individual who we wasn't in the in the video that we watched, but he was in Newport and he didn't want to hav so much conversation about race.

He didn't want race to enter so many aspects of our conversations.

Now, when I shared with him the experience of one of our guests.

So the example here, being a woman, black woman, she grew up having gone to school that were mostly white, mixed, and mostly black.

She had a variety of different experiences.

And when she was in a mostly white school, she befriended and had a really stron relationship with a white male.

And at some point took an interest in him and had the courage to ask him out on a date.

He got red in the face and said, oh, I, I can't date a black girl now imagine how that feels.

That same individual in Newport, when he heard that story, had an audible right.

It hit him in the gut.

And that's not to sa that every interaction is laced with some kind of racial bias, but these are real experience pieces that people have, and I think we can have those conversations in a productive manner both ways.

I sharing Andre asked me what was it like to grow up white?

That was his first questio to me, and I said, I don't know.

I never even said much.

My race.

And he said, Dre.

And I knew it was a luxury that I didn't have to think about it right.

But through my sharing with him, he gets a little window into why it might be so hard for some people who never had to think through a racial len to understand what it's like to so often, regularly have to think through a racia lens and deal either themselves or through their network with those kinds of experiences.

That's not the only experience we heard, right.

We heard another black woman who talked about a great friend she had in her childhood who wanted to bring her to her church.

And her mom said, we can't bring a black person to our church, right?

These are not experience that are necessarily happening all the time, right?

But they do happen and they have an impact.

And I think it can be productive to talk about our experiences and what shaped our views of how we want to proceed with race relations.

So with that, said, Andre, how do you balance ou the two narratives of them, of how people talk about well, there's no racism, right?

Which certainly that is not the case versus, there is a terrible amount of racism in the United States.

Well.

I balance it out by rememberin that we're dealing with a life and we're dealing with emotions, and we're dealing with the lived experiences of people, and so on both sides of the aisle.

You know, as I quoted, you know, Amanda Gorman, our, you know, our, empathy is our emancipation.

So in order to, to free yourself and to not feel any sense of, you know, constraint, you're going to have to look at a person as a person.

And I've struggled with that in these conversations because it does feel deflatin to hear the white point of view.

When you fee as though you have been the the you are the aggrieved party, right?

But I have to sit in those emotions and sit in that discomfort.

And I have encouraged other to just hear out the other side.

You know, this was not a part of Healing Race, but I was talking to, very lovely, lovely young woman who is white, and she was telling m how she feels a sense of tension when sometimes she is around black women.

She works in the restaurant industry and, you know, black people come, black women come you know, to celebrate things.

And she said, I've seen them ask to be either served or she said, and another place for my black coworkers.

And she was willing to lean into that right and lean into the discomfort of how that made her feel, but also recognize, well, that's something that black people have been going through you know, for a very long time.

And yes, it's happened to me.

But now this experience gives me some perspective.

So the way to circle bac to your question that I balance it is to look at the human being.

And that's hard when you're in your emotions.

I know that Los Angeles, when you I've been in your traffic like it's hard, but it's so much more rewarding when you do.

I have 60s for each of you on this final question, there is one final argument that one could make that forgive me for saying this, but maybe your podcast is just adding fuel to a fire that was possibly put out some years ago.

There are those who argue we've made great stride to bridge the racial divide in the playing field is leveling out.

I'm going to say it's not perfect, it's leveling out to a degree.

So with that said, is your podcast Fanning the flames, so to speak, or Todd, should we keep the fire burning on this race conversation and really keep talking about this?

I got 60s for you and then 60 for Andre.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, the proof is in the pudding.

Every one of our guests conversations, they want to have another conversation and then another conversation after that, people feel more connected.

They feel more informed.

They feel transformed in some way.

I think it's not whether we should have conversations, but how we have the conversations.

And I think what we provide with healing race is a way to not dance around topics, to keep the peace where we can be real but also move the ball forward.

Andre I like embers, right?

So as long as a person is having an uncomfortable emotion, that means growth is possible.

So I wouldn't say fan the flames, but we are certainly stoking the embers.

And that's a good thing because you can't rebuild until you kind of destroy the what.

You know what you what's already there.

And that's a great thing because now you get to write the narrativ in whatever direction you want.

And who wouldn't want to write a more positive narrative about their own live and connectedness in the world?

We live in a marvelous world full of marvelous people, but we allow these artificia institutions to keep us separate when it just doesn't have to be so.

Now I know why the two.

You're such great friends after 30 years and have a really great and popular podcast sailing race, Andre Thomas, Todd Levinson, thank you both so much for this great interview.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you David.

And we're going to interview you again.

Now.

For more information about our program just click on KLC US dot org and then click Contact Us to send us your questions, your comments, even your story ideas so we can hear from you or you know, you can contact me directly at David.

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Thank you all so much for joining us.

I'm Devin is are.