- We have 240,000 homeless students in our state.

We have more young people who live in poverty, who are hungry, and, you know, always at risk of federal programs coming against them.

We have students who are under attack by the ICE and the Trump administration, you know, whereas on the other hand, I've passed legislation to keep ICE out of our schools and out of our hospitals.

And now my legislation puts a tax on any company that operates an ICE detention center.

And so, no disrespect to Steve Hilton, but I don't think he understands education, what our educators need and what our students need.

- Hey, everyone from KQED in San Francisco.

This is Political Breakdown.

I'm Marisa Lagos.

- And I'm Scott Shafer.

Today on the Breakdown, we continue our series of interviews with the many candidates vying to be California's next governor.

Tony Thurmond is a Democrat, and currently California's top education official.

- Thurman was elected in 2018 as superintendent a public instruction.

He previously was a city council member, school board member and state assemblyman.

Tony Thurman, welcome back to Political Breakdown.

- Thank you.

Thanks for having me on.

Good help.

- Well, we're thrilled to have you.

And we are opening with a kind of broad question for all these candidates, which is, who are you politically and what is your vision for the state?

- Yeah, you know, my vision is that we're gonna do better.

You know, I love this state, but it's really found itself on hard times.

We have got to address homelessness.

You know, we have 10,000 homeless teens in this state, and I'm working on legislation to address that.

We gotta build housing and make sure that people have good education and healthcare and good jobs.

Who am I?

I'm a son of California.

I was born here, lived here most of my life.

California has been good to me and my family.

And I'm somebody who believes that we can do better.

- You know, you talked a little bit, you just alluded there to growing up here.

You've spoken about your tough childhood though.

- Yeah.

- You were one of four kids.

Yeah.

Your mom was from Panama.

Your dad was estranged.

He was a a Vietnam War vet.

You were born at an army post in Fort or Monterey.

You moved to San Jose.

Your mom died when you were six.

Yeah.

That's really tough.

How was your upbringing affected by all of that?

- It was completely affected.

You know, my mom was a teacher in San Jose, and she did her best.

And while my dad was off in Vietnam, she cared for the family.

When she passed away, she had cancer.

I was six years old and all the kids got split up.

Two stayed in California, and my five-year-old brother and I ended up in Philly living with a relative.

We didn't know her until we showed up on our doorstep.

Oh, wow.

- And - She took us in and raised us and made sure we got a good education and kept us outta harm's way.

But we struggled financially.

We didn't have food in the house most of the time.

I grew up on the free lunch program, on food stamps and on government cheese.

And so I'm sensitive to those who are hungry in our estate.

And that's why I've worked on so many programs to establish universal mules for California kids.

But those experience shaped my thinking.

And you know, I worked my way through college working minimum wage jobs and fast food UPS worked in the restaurant industry.

And those things make me think about where Californians are.

They are struggling, and I believe they need a governor who understands where working people are and will advance policies that will make a difference for people.

And so the humble beginnings help me to, you know, get started and to become a social worker and help foster youth and seniors and work on almost every single issue.

I, I had a 20 year career in the nonprofit world before stepping into politics.

And I've worked on housing, on education, on healthcare, homelessness issues.

And I believe that I have something to offer to the voters of California as governor.

- Yeah, I wonder, I mean, I can only imagine being that young of a child and showing up somewhere with somebody you've never met, but it, it does sound like you really had a lot of support.

You've talked about crediting good teachers - Yes.

- For really making you aim high.

Can you, can you talk about that and like how did you kind, how did that play into you going into public service?

Yeah.

Which even before you ran for elected office, a lot of the jobs you were doing were really aimed around service.

- Sure.

Yeah.

I think the teachers were holding the bar high and saying that you can do well in spite of your circumstances.

And without saying these words, I believe there was saying that there's a promise that if you believe in education, it will carry you wherever you want to go.

And so, in my life, I look back, I feel like the promise was kept.

I believed in it.

I bought into what they were saying, but a lot of young people don't.

And I work with so many young people who have no sense of hope for their future.

And so we've gotta do more to reach young people earlier.

And so I did have people invest in me, even though I didn't have the, the support around.

You know, there was no - The privilege.

Yeah.

- And there were not any bereavement programs.

No one talked about your feelings and being bereaved, it was kind of like, just keep moving forward.

But education was clear in the center and it was, your life will be better if you just believe in that.

And that's proven to be true.

And I've been trying to do that for students and youth my entire career.

And certainly in this current role.

And I hope to continue that as governor.

- You came back to the Bay Area after getting your master's degree.

Yeah.

And as you said, you worked in non the nonprofit world.

Yeah.

A couple decades before you got into politics.

How did that shape the way you look at government?

Yeah.

And what government can or can't do?

- First time I ran for an office was the Richmond City Council, and the city had a $35 million deficit.

And I heard one of the incumbents say that they didn't know how they got there.

And it struck me, if you don't know how you ended up in a big deficit like that, I put my name on the ballot the next day.

That was it.

I was gonna run, because I had worked on big public programs, I had managed public resources.

And that's the trust that our voters depend on.

And so I think the, so the nonprofit experiences gave me a way and experience in specific programs.

And so as a legislator, I was able to bring legislation to expand programs for students, for seniors in healthcare, for people with developmental disabilities.

And we had a lot of success as a, when I learned that there was a position that was all about helping young people, even though everyone told me not to run for it, they said, you'll make political enemies and destroy your career.

I decided to run for it anyway because to me, my politics are all about helping people and of course helping young people.

And so it was an easy decision for me to make.

And so the nonprofit world has shaped a lot of my beliefs.

I grew up following people who helped people, and I always had a sense that I wanted to be in some form of public service, but I waited, you know, I waited 20 years before I ever put my name on a ballot.

And I'm grateful that for the last 18 years, the people of the state have elected me to serve them in different capacities.

- We have a crowded field for governor.

There's a lot of ideas out there, kind of wondering if there's anything audacious, big outside the box that you have as part of your platform.

- Yeah.

I've talked about building 2 million housing units right off the top.

- How - In this campaign?

Yeah.

You know, the surplus property in every one of our 58 counties that's ready for development right now, it does not require any additional permitting.

And that's been a big issue in our state.

The permitting process holds up the ability to build housing.

And so we've landed on something that we can do right now.

And I'm not waiting to become governor to do it.

I'm working on ways to get money to the school districts that own that surplus property to help them begin to build that housing.

If there were just 12 units on every single one of those vacant parcels, we'd get to 2.3 million units over the next four years.

And so we can do it.

- You know, it's interesting that you say that.

'cause I remember when Gavin Newsom was running for governor in 2018, he said, we're gonna build 3.5 million.

- Yeah.

- You know even more than what you just said.

And I not, you know, for lack of trying.

- Right.

- He's got nowhere near that.

- Right.

- So what did he do wrong?

What did California do wrong that you're gonna fix?

- For starters, California got rid of redevelopment agencies.

I mean, that was a huge source of funding for cities and counties to build housing.

As, as a council member, we built thousands of units of housing because we had redevelopment.

You know, you can't place a mandate on cities and counties without giving them some resources to work with.

And so, from my perspective, we have to help cities and counties to build housing.

I'm also supporting legislation that if passed by the voters would put a $10 billion bond in front of the voters to have $10 billion for building affordable housing.

- Hmm.

- In all the years when California had its surpluses, not enough going into, into housing, affordable housing.

And at the same time, we have a federal government that puts absolutely zero into supporting us.

And so California, for now, we have to go our own way until we change who occupies the White House.

But this is something that we can do.

And this plan, my 2 million housing plan is proven.

It's been studied, it's been researched, and it is something that we can accomplish.

- Yeah.

Well, you mentioned there were several years of surplus.

Unfortunately, the next governor, we are not in that situation.

- Yep.

- You know, I think between the Trump cuts the money he's trying to withhold from states like California.

- Yes.

- And then just our structural deficit, there's a lot of challenges.

And as you know, better than anyone, K through 12 education and healthcare are the two biggest chunks of this budget.

- Yep.

- How would you grapple with those deficits?

Like, would you have to cut?

Do you want to add to revenues?

What, what's your plan there?

- I would say a little bit of both.

I think we have to start by stamping out any fraud, waste, and abuse.

You know, there are estimates that there are billions in the unemployment in insurance sector and insurance, that that's just waste, fraud and abuse.

But even with cutting that out, California has always needed more revenue.

California, can you imagine during the pandemic, we had these record surpluses, that means that people got rich during the pandemic and coming outta the pandemic, now we have these huge, you know, deficits.

And so we need a permanent and steady source of revenue for K 12 education, for higher education, and for healthcare.

And so my proposal is that we make the cuts and that we stamp out abuse and waste, and that we also identify new tax revenue.

And that would be on billionaires, not on working people or middle class people who are already paying so much.

Hmm.

I, I think we tax billionaires and closed loopholes for corporations like in Prop 13.

That won't mean any new taxes for seniors or for homeowners, or for small businesses.

Actually, I'm planning, I'm proposing that we give Californians a tax credit to have more money in your pocket every single month to pay for the high cost of gas, groceries, and housing.

- So, as that answer suggests, you've carved out maybe the most liberal progressive lane of those running for a governor.

But how would you, you know, build relationships with the private sector, with business?

Because you have to have that too, as governor.

- Without a doubt.

And, you know, small business is the backbone of our economy.

And as governor, I would continue working with small businesses to have money to help them upgrade their businesses and to support them.

And again, to streamline government processes.

Government processes are killing our small businesses.

I've also supported big industry in California.

If you provide jobs in our state, I will be a governor who will partner with you.

I've, I've helped to pass tax credits for our film credit industry, for our biotechnology industry.

You know, California will have another 80,000 jobs that will go unfilled in steam and technology.

We have jobs and I will support those sectors.

I'm not against, by supporting a billionaire's tax doesn't mean that I'm against business.

I actually wanna work closely with businesses, but only those businesses that wanna support Californians.

If you're the homeowner's insurance industry, yeah.

I'm gonna be hard on that industry because they didn't write policies for Californians.

Or when there were fires, they didn't pay out those policies.

And then they turned around and got a rate increase.

I'm sorry, where I come from, if you do a bad job, you don't get a rate increase.

You don't get, unless you're writing policies for California.

So I'll, I'll work with the business community, but we do need more revenue.

It's unquestionable, unquestioned that we need it and we can't tax working people anymore.

- Yeah.

I'm curious, I mean by saying you're open to things like a billionaire's tax, like it sounds like a split rule.

So to take out commercial properties from Prop 13.

- Yep.

- You know, and in general, maybe you're alluding to bigger sort of changes of the tax code.

This is something our current governor, Gavin Newsom, obviously another Democrat, has resisted in a lot of ways.

Is that one of your biggest criticisms of his leadership?

Do you have others?

Like how do you see yourself differing from how he's governed the state?

- Yeah, I'll, I'll be honest, look, I'm, you know, I'll take a huge risk here and just say, I think that the governor's done a, a great job on so many fronts.

Think about our disasters.

You know, the last seven years that I've served alongside him, I've watched all the natural disasters affect our communities.

From my standpoint, I've had to raise money for schools that have, you know, housing vouchers and books and clothes and water.

And he really is someone who has led and he has tried to be innovative.

But, you know, I think when he says he's against the billionaires tax, he's probably making decisions because he is running for president.

- Mm.

- And those options, - Although he's been pretty anti new taxes in general, I will say.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Well, we can tax billionaires and still protect our economy from them leaving.

There is a proposal for a national wealth tax.

And as governor, I would've work with the members of Congress to bring that forward - To - Protect California's revenue.

And so, you know, I think overall the governor's done a great job.

You know, I think he is ambitious in his ideology and, and, and his plans.

You know, I think he has learned that implementation is very hard.

And I don't, I don't fault him for that.

I think he's been willing to take chances.

And you need a governor who's willing to do that.

I'm not running for president.

I'm focused on California only.

And that means that I'm willing to take chances that I know are gonna help working people.

We got a bunch of billionaires running for this office who've never served before.

I don't think that just because you have made a lot of money, that should mean that you should be able to buy being governor.

And I think we need somebody who struggled like Californians and is gonna put working people and middle class people first as their priority.

And that's what I plan to do as governor.

- You said the Governor Newsom has done a good job, but one of the things he proposed this year was moving the Department of Education from the superintendent's control and into the executive branch.

And you told us right after he made that proposal, he had not talked with you - True - About that.

So has the governor's office tried to make the case to you since he first floated that?

- Well, I, as I said, I think he's done a good job on most things.

Right.

I, you know, I would just say, and he actually has been a great governor in terms of getting funding for education, which is where the power lies in the governor's office.

You have all the authority for what goes into the budget.

And so this new proposal, I don't understand exactly how it's gonna help kids, but I've said, Hey, if you can show me how it does, I'll be open to it.

- Wasn't that a little disrespectful though?

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think he sent some messages to staff that he was thinking about it.

But, you know, we've worked very closely together these last seven years, and I would expect there to be some dialogue about what he's doing.

And the question that he still hasn't answered, why, why do it again?

- Like what do, why do you think, I mean, it, it does seem like it wouldn't have been that hard to pick up the phone and call you.

- That's true.

And I would've to just say the timing and smack of some kind of a political benefit.

It's gotta be a political benefit for him that he hopes to achieve.

Which is unfortunate because this governor has done more for California education than any other governor in recent history.

We have worked together to create a free preschool for every single 4-year-old, free meals, 4 billion for mental health.

We've done things that, you know, programs to support kids in, in terms of building their reading comprehension.

And so why he's doing it baffles me.

But I have continued to say, put the focus on things that we know are gonna make a difference.

Like the five-year plan for making sure that kids learn to read by third grade, which is a plan that I've written, I've asked him to invest in.

He's not done that.

Although he has done a lot to fund literacy.

There's more that California needs to do.

Every other state has had a long-term plan that brings all the programs together, whether it's dyslexia, screening, and tutoring.

California has cobbled it together over the years.

It's time for us to have a comprehensive plan.

And I'm leading that now, and I hope to be able to implement it as governor.

- I wonder, you mentioned earlier like California needs more revenue.

- Yeah.

- And we have seen under this governor and your leadership, the per pupil spending increase.

- Yeah.

- We are still, I think we're in the middle of states when it comes to per pupil spending - Overall.

- Right.

- Lower down the list on outcomes and achievement.

- Yeah.

- Is money the issue?

Is it having a plan?

Like you're talking about like - Yeah.

- Because there are other people in this race and thinking of Steve Hilton who say we're spending so much, like why are, is the achievement gap still so large?

It's not a money problem?

- Yeah.

You know, money helps, but it's not the only thing, you know, you, the number one thing you need is to have well prepared teachers and school staff who work with our kids.

And for years, California has a, has a, has not been able to be clear about making sure teachers are trained in the basics like phonics so that kids, you know, are able to read by third grade.

Now we are moving forward on that.

I helped to push through the proposal that make sure that we do dyslexia screening.

Mm.

I mean, that's a, that's a basic to make sure that kids are ready and prepared and get the supports that they need.

You know, no disrespect to Steve Hilton, but I don't think he has any experience in education.

I think he's making a, an outlandish statement to suggest that we cut education at a time when we need more.

We have 240,000 homeless students in our state.

We have more young people who live in poverty, who are hungry, and, you know, always at risk of federal programs coming against them.

We have students who are under attack by the ICE and the Trump administration, you know, whereas on the other hand, I've passed legislation to keep ICE out of our schools and out of our hospitals.

And now my legislation puts a tax on any company that operates an ICE detention center.

And so, no disrespect to Steve Hilton, but I don't think he understands education, what our educators need and what our students need.

- You mentioned ICE and of course, immigration, deportations a big issue.

And whoever the next governor is, they're gonna have to deal with this president.

Yes.

And, you know, for at least a couple years, once they become governor, you know, some Democrats are calling for the abolition.

That's right.

Get rid of ICE altogether.

- That's right.

- Number one, do you support that?

And if so, what would you replace it with?

- Yep.

I'm pretty sure I'm the first gubernatorial candidate to call for abolishing ICE.

And it's because ICE has so far been disruptive.

- Right.

- We were told by Trump that ICE was gonna keep our borders closed and safe.

But what have they done to keep anybody safe?

By my count, two Americans have lost their lives, who spoke out against ICE.

The people who've been arrested weren't involved in committing some atrocious act.

The people who've been arrested have been childcare workers and farm workers.

And the mother of my 6-year-old student who was a deaf student who was abducted right here in San Francisco while he was in a meeting with his mom at, at an ICE office.

And so again, who were they protecting?

Who were they keeping safe?

So let's abolish ICE and start all over again with agencies.

Yes.

We have to have immigration enforcement and we can keep our borders safe and we can create a pathway to citizenship.

And as governor, that's what I'll work on.

For people who simply wanna work here and pay taxes, many of these folks already are, they're paying taxes into a system that they cannot use.

They can't collect social security.

And so, and, and yes, I am the son and grandson of immigrants.

My grandmother was born in Columbia.

My mother in Panama, my grandfather in Jamaica, they came here wanting a better life.

They worked it to clean bathrooms to give that better life.

And I see how immigrants are providing for us.

And Trump's reckless immigration policy has done nothing but disrupt our agricultural sector.

Huge.

For California hotels and hospitality construction, I think we can do better.

And as governor, I intend to work with Congress to help us create better.

- You mentioned briefly the 6-year-old Joseph Ladia Rodriguez, who was deaf.

He was deported to Columbia with his family.

I know you and other California democrats have been very vocal calling for him to come back.

- Yes.

- Have you received any response from the Trump administration?

- Only their public statements that, that suggest?

- So defending the deportation.

- Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

Exactly.

But there were many conversations happening, I would say in the courts.

You know, we've had many, many conversations with members of the Senate and Congress, and I would just say that there have been behind the scenes conversations with members of the Trump administration to see how we might reverse this situation.

- You mentioned when we were talking earlier that you have a couple of kids who are now older, but all of us were affected by COVID.

Yeah.

The closures, whether you're a small business person, a student, a teacher.

And I'm wondering, you know, in hindsight, yeah.

Do you think that California did anything that maybe we shouldn't have done or that you would do differently as governor?

If a situation came up again like that, - You hope that you never experience it again.

Right.

But a hundred thousand people lost their lives.

You, you hope that you're never in that situation to experience a worldwide phenomena that threatens lives and that we don't know.

And I feel like in this state, this state has followed the guidance of those who work in public health.

And the state did the best that it can do.

We probably could have gotten schools open a little sooner.

You know, the, the governor and the legislature tried to create a framework that said, you'll get more money based on the sooner that you open.

- Hmm.

- You know, I was going in a different direction.

You know, I'll tell you, as a parent, I was very scared about what this would mean for my kids going to school.

- Yeah.

- Even as we saw the cases going up in the fall, what would've been 2020.

But as we started to learn about things like these rapid COVID tests where you can know within 15 minutes if you've got COVID or not, that was the moment when I knew we could get schools open again.

People could be back in school and safe.

And if you're sick, you stay home.

And so there was this stretch of time from say, November, 2020 to about March of the next year, where things just got delayed.

And I think that they could have been better, but I don't fault, I don't fault anyone because everyone's worried about their safety and their world being the whole world.

And even states that opened a little sooner than California, we've seen the same effects on students in terms of learning loss.

It just goes to show that we went through something that was traumatic, and as a result, our kids had the highest rates of depression and anxiety and learning loss.

But California's done more than any other state to combat that learning loss.

Billions for extra tutoring, longer school days, professional development, 6 billion for computers.

It's heartbreaking to know that on day one of the pandemic, we had a million kids without a computer or access to the internet.

- Well, now we're trying to take the computers away from them.

Right.

- Well, only, only during, only during class time.

Right, exactly.

Yes.

Put your phone in a pouch and you'll be okay.

Right.

I've, I've had to do this as a parent and as a policymaker and Yeah.

- But some of it, you know, we've had to go back and be like, okay, now these young kids need to learn how to like write with their hands.

- Absolutely.

- 'cause you know, it's a challenge.

- Absolutely.

- I wonder, maybe last question on education.

I know we've talked about a lot to your expertise, but, you know, you talked about phonics earlier.

- Yeah.

- There's a big debate here in San Francisco and some other districts around algebra and middle school.

- Yes.

- I think there's a sense among some folks that in order to sort of close these achievement gaps, we have, you know, instead of just bringing like the, the quality of education or the quality of learning ha is being declined for some students, instead of bringing everyone up to the - Yeah.

The same level, how do you address that?

- Yeah.

And how, and what is it been a curriculum issue, things like that, or focus issue.

- Yeah.

- I think that when it comes to, especially math, we, we have to hold the bar high in any subject.

There has to be rigor.

And for students who struggle, then we get them extra help.

Now, I say that as a student, I struggled in algebra.

I had a very hard time.

And if she's listening, I have to give thanks to Mrs.

Harrell who sat with me through algebra.

And she basically said, baby, you're gonna get this.

And she stayed with me until I got it.

And that's the approach that I would take, keep the bar high, especially around math.

- And now you use algebra every day, right?

- No.

- Why did we learn that?

- No comment.

But you raise a point.

We should be teaching things that are practical for our kids and what are they going to use in the workforce.

And there are many who say that we should move away from certain subjects in math and instead move to things like data science, where, where kids are going to use that in their workplace.

But we have to set the bar high in every subject, and then just give support rather than water anything down or make it easier, you know, keep the rigor as the focus.

- Yeah.

- And then provide extra tutoring and mentoring and support for those who need it.

- How do you think of the CTA, the union - Yeah.

- For teachers in, in all of this?

Do you see them as being a help or a hindrance in reaching the kind of goals, making, the kind of changes that you're talking about?

- You know, they have been incredibly supportive of programs like community schools.

That's been their number one issue.

So that kids get access to mental health and healthcare at school, or someone who can connect them in the community to those resources.

And so they, they've got, you know, teachers who volunteer and in committees to think through how do you close the achievement gap?

How do you boost literacy?

And so in those ways, they are incredible partners and they fight for their members to make sure that they're being paid better, so that they don't, they don't leave the district.

And so they've been a great partner, you know, but look, no one gets a free pass.

You know, my, my approach has been, I work with everyone, but at the end of the day, we always have to do what's right for kids.

And there are times when we've disagreed on, on policy.

You know, the CTA disagreed with me on a policy that I helped to pass to teach our kids personal finance.

And I didn't understand that right away, but now I do.

They were making a statement about how many requirements there are.

- Right.

- And they're Right.

- Right.

So you only have so much time on a school day.

Right.

They're - Right.

Yeah.

So, and so my argument to them though is, let's not oppose personal finance.

Let's find a way to remove some of those requirements.

And they know that takes a long time, but personal finance means that our kids graduate more likely, they're more oftentimes going to college, and they will graduate and grow up to not have debt.

And I'm, I'm grateful that we are now implementing that in the state of California.

Yeah.

- All right.

We're short on time, but we've been asking everyone Yeah.

An end question, which is, where would you take an out of town guest to give them like a taste of California?

- Ooh.

So a taste.

I mean, we are, I, I think that we are in the best place in terms of, I would take them to Chinatown here in San Francisco.

I would take them to Broadway and Uptown and Oakland to have access to some of the best food.

I would take them to places like Richmond that has 23 miles of shoreline of Bay Trail that you can walk around and get a great feeling.

- First Richmond, shout out.

I love - It.

Of course, you know, the guy from Richmond's gonna talk about Richmond, but perfect.

We have, we have so many assets all throughout the Bay, and I'm learning about them in Southern California.

You know, incredible trails and places that you can hike.

And, you know, I've spent a lot more time in Los Angeles and a lot more time in, in the Inland Empire, - Right.

- Where your affiliate KVCR has been important to me and where my wife works in, you know, where we have found that there are just incredible people and treasures in this state.

And if they wanna know, I'm happy to take 'em to any of them.

- All right.

We're gonna leave it there.

Superintendent for Public Education.

Tony Thurman, he's running for governor.

Thank you so much for coming in today.

Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And no, before we go, you can find all our interviews for governor in our podcast feed in the coming weeks.

You can also watch them on the KQED News YouTube channel.

We're gonna be posting a lot more content there this year.

That's gonna be a wrap for Thursday, March 19th.

Political Breakdown is a production of KQED.

- Our engineer today is Jim Bennett.

Our producer is Emiko ota.

Our video team includes Matt Morales, Alex Tran, Jim McKee and Vivian Morales.

I'm Scott Shafer.

- And I'm Marisa Lagos.

Thanks for being here.