
What’s Your Money Personality?
Season 5 Episode 501 | 28m 46sVideo has Closed Captions
A look at the range of emotional reactions and connections people have with money.
How do you act with money? Are you a “Money Star,” “Oblivious,” or “Penny Wise Pound Foolish”? This episode looks at the range of emotional reactions and connections people have with money. So what personality are you? Find out in this episode.
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Biz Kid$ is presented by your local public television station.
Distributed nationally by American Public Television

What’s Your Money Personality?
Season 5 Episode 501 | 28m 46sVideo has Closed Captions
How do you act with money? Are you a “Money Star,” “Oblivious,” or “Penny Wise Pound Foolish”? This episode looks at the range of emotional reactions and connections people have with money. So what personality are you? Find out in this episode.
Problems playing video? | Closed Captioning Feedback
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Providing Support for PBS.org
Learn Moreabout PBS online sponsorship>> Production funding and educational outreach for Biz Kids is provided by a coalition of America's Credit Unions, where people are worth more than money.
A complete list of individual credit union funders is available at WXXI.org.
>> Every day, America's Credit Unions help members with their financial needs and with programs like Invest in America.
It's only fitting that credit unions support Biz Kids because financial education is what we do.
Learn more at lovemycreditunion.org.
>> Paging Dr. Bender... >> Well, Doc, what is it?
A boy or a girl?
>> Well, the Persona-scan 3000 is a state-of-the-art 3D-imaging device, so not only can it tell the gender of your child but also your baby's money personality.
You see there are multiple kinds of money personalities.
There's the penny-wise, pound-foolish type, or PWPF, and then you've got your oblivious type who doesn't even really think about money.
And then there's... huh, that's interesting.
>> Wh... what is it?
Is my baby okay?
>> Well, you see the swollen cranium?
That means your child likely has an active imagination.
And right there, the twitching fingers.
That means your baby probably has a compulsory need for material possessions.
And right there, see that?
That sir, is a $10,000 watch.
Congratulations, you two are going to be the proud parents of a money star.
You best start saving now, 'cause these kids tend to rack up huge debts.
And... >> (sobbing) >> What's wrong?
>> We were hoping for a Biz Kid.
>> ♪ Whoo-hoo-hoo!
>> ♪ When making money is the aim ♪ These kids they bring their game.
♪ They're the Biz Kids!
>> Can you dig it?
>> ♪ They know what's up, they let you know ♪ just how to make that dough.
♪ They're the Biz Kids.
>> Right on!
>> ♪ So learn a little more about bringing money through the ♪ door.
♪ They're the Biz Kids!
>> Right on!
♪ >> Brought to you by: your money personality.
Define it before it defines you.
>> Shh.
I'm running a little experiment.
I'm trying to see what I can find out about people's money personalities based on how they handle... candy.
Let's take a look.
Ah, oblivious.
Oblivious doesn't know how much is going in or how much is coming out.
The same is true for both candy and money.
They don't pay attention to how much they're making or how much they're spending.
They're oblivious.
>> Where are the European chocolates?
>> The money star personality is all about the bling-bling of what they have.
You know who they are.
They need to have the brand names, they worship money, and they overspend to make it look like they have it.
>> I only eat the most expensive candy.
>> Huh?
Candy!
>> More candy?
>> Maybe you know someone who's penny-wise and pound-foolish.
We like to call that PWPF.
They try very hard to save a whole bunch of money up front, but in the long run actually spend more.
>> I have tons of these at home that I bought on sale at the Overstock Discount Warehouse of Value place.
They were cheap, because they were beyond the past due expiration date.
Now I'm sick of 'em.
And they're getting kind of moldy.
>> The PWPF either saves too much or cuts costs to the point of having a lot of expenses in the long run.
You see, they spend a lot of money in order to save a little money.
So there you have it.
Oblivious, PWPF, and money star.
All these three personalities are inside all of us to one degree or another, the trick is not to let any single personality take over.
You gotta find out which personality is most like yours, break some bad habits, and hopefully you'll become the best kind of money personality-- the Biz Kid.
Don't you want some candy?
>> No, thanks.
I had some earlier.
>> The way someone handles their money says a lot about their money personality.
(whistling) >> Hi, I'm Valerie.
I used to make impulse purchases without knowing if I could really afford them.
>> Gucci.
>> Prada.
>> And Versace.
>> I bought this online because I had to have it.
Never worn it.
I bought this hat because I just thought I needed it.
Never worn it.
I bought these shoes for $100.
Never worn 'em.
>> I had made a lot of money through working, and I had no idea where I'd spent any of this money.
I had nothing to show for where this money had gone.
>> That is pretty.
I love that.
>> Look at this one.
>> If I'm out shopping with my friends, it's a lot easier for me to make impulse purchases because I'm caught up in the moment and I'm not really tracking where my finances are going.
It's a lot easier to spend on a debit or credit card because you can't see exactly how fast your money is going.
When I started working at Forever 21 and got my first paycheck, I knew that I needed to have a better handle on my finances because I know that I had worked hard for that money.
That's when I became a Biz Kid.
I started to use a ledger in order to track my finances and I started checking my online banking statements more regularly.
Pay attention to what you earn and what you spend, Biz Kid.
I started a blog called "Beauty and the Budget" back in May of 2009.
You can find a wide variety of content on frugal living, like how to manage your finances or where to find the latest fashions for under $50.
I'm really driven to do "Beauty and the Budget" because I want to show that fashion can be affordable without having to worry about buyer's remorse or maxing out credit cards.
>> Hi, I'm Dorothy, and my friends and I need your help.
>> My help?
I, the Great and Powerful?
>> Yes, you see this old witch told me I couldn't go home to Kansas unless I help the three worst money personalities in all of Oz change their bad spending habits.
>> I see.
Tell me, each of you, your attitudes towards money.
>> Well, I don't have a brain, so I don't really think about money.
I just buy whatever I want and hopefully I have enough to pay for everything.
>> What about when you don't have enough to cover everything?
I see.
Clearly you're oblivious.
What about you, Lion?
>> Well, uh, being king of the jungle, I need to have nice things.
I don't care how much money I have, just so long as I can keep spending.
Look it, I got gators, I got fancy chains, and the munchkin ladies just love the bling.
>> You act like a star.
But your habits belie a deep lack of self-esteem.
>> Well, when you mention it... >> Silence!
Tin Man, speak!
>> Well, I don't have a heart.
So sometimes I worry that I don't have lots of other things, either.
Then I make bad decisions with my money.
Normally I'm good with my savings, but then I'll turn around and blow it on bulk deals or buy things that I'll never be able to use.
>> So, you're penny-wise, pound-foolish.
>> Why, no.
I'm a tin man.
>> Moo!
>> Cash Cow here.
So, what's your money personality?
Are you oblivious?
Many cows are, but to be oblivious means you'll never save any hay.
Moo!
>> Have you ever known someone who's oblivious about money?
>> That's their money personality: oblivious.
>> They're oblivious to what they have in the bank.
>> Lookie here, it says I got $200 in my bank account.
>> This is your phone bill, not your bank statement.
>> Oblivious about what they spend.
>> Oblivious to the rules of good credit.
>> They never pay attention to their finances and they never keep records.
>> An oblivious person will often make spur-of-the-moment impulse purchases, without knowing if they can actually afford them.
>> They just hope everything will work out okay, somehow.
>> The good part about being oblivious is you don't worry so much.
>> The bad part?
Bounced checks, over the ATM limit, never having money.
>> Or borrow it and forget to pay it back.
>> Taking responsibility for one's finances can be scary for the oblivious person, but it's really not hard to keep track of how much you earn and how much you spend.
Hey, where's that $10 you owe me?
>> Um, er, uh...
I thought I had it.
>> To be financially oblivious is to be ridiculous.
>> Ridiculous.
>> That guy.
(kids screaming) >> Ice cream!
>> I'm Mik Bushinski and I'm the owner of Mik Mart Ice Cream.
I'm selling ice cream so I can make money to live off of for the next two years while I play junior hockey, and for college after that.
I really love to play hockey.
Keep track of your money and you'll never miss your goal.
Those.
Thank you.
And I'll use all these.
Thanks, Mom.
The whole family sells ice cream novelties, about 70 products in each ice cream truck.
Me, my brother, my sisters, my dad and my mom.
We kept track of money when I first started the business, but we didn't keep track of where all the money went that wasn't related to the business.
At the beginning, it was difficult to track the money because everyone likes using money when it's around.
It's always nice to have some, just, "Oh, I need this" or "I need that."
I use the money I took from the money box for new skates, new hockey gear, go get food, going to movies, sports gear for me and my brother, buy stuff that I want.
And when people started taking, you don't always mark it down, then you don't know really where it is.
There was a point where we went to the cashbox to get money to buy our order of ice cream and... how do I put this?
There wasn't very much money left in the ice cream box, so we couldn't offer all the products that we pride ourselves in offering.
You can take the rest of those.
But I'm actually sold out of that one.
The truck had a lot of sold out signs on it and it's a little embarrassing when people start asking, "Where's all the options?"
I really love to play hockey.
"Where's all the options?"
New skates.
"Where's all the options?"
Oh, I need this.
"Where's all the options?"
I need that.
"Where's all the options?"
Stuff that I want.
Being oblivious is like skating on thin ice.
(buzzer sounds) No, I have not made this mistake again, and I hope to not make it in the future.
Thank you.
>> Can I get a hot fudge?
>> I keep very strict books that track every penny of the money, where it goes, what comes in, what we spend it on, and what's paid out or what's used.
I find that when you keep track of it, you spend it more wisely.
It's important to track the money coming in and going out, otherwise you're oblivious.
Don't be oblivious, be a Biz Kid.
>> Biz Kid.
>> Hello, my name's Oblivious.
Yeah, that's my name.
O-B-L... (Monday Night Football theme) >> Welcome to the 21st annual Extreme Money Games.
The sun is shining on our track and field athletes today.
>> It is a great day we've got out here, Mike.
And look at these athletes all preparing down on the field right now for our 200-meter dash.
>> Absolutely, Jim, and I believe favored to win today is Bolt Getaclue from the U.S. of A.
>> Well, he looks very promising, Mike.
In fact, I think that he might even be able to pull off a win in the event today.
Now wait just one minute, would you take a look at his track shoes?
>> It looks like he has two left shoes on.
He obviously did not try the shoes on when he made the purchase.
He... he is completely oblivious and we can't warn him now.
>> Runner's ready?
(starter gun) >> And they're off.
>> What a spin out!
>> Being oblivious has really cost Bolt the race once again.
>> Not being more mindful of his purchase has really cost this money athlete his 200-meter dash.
You might call it a Nightmare on Spin Street.
>> Well, you can say that again, Mike.
>> (slowed down): Nightmare on Spin Street.
Stay tuned because women's tennis singles... >> Hey, Capitalist Peg here.
What's your money personality?
Are you oblivious, are you penny-wise, pound-foolish, or are you the money star?
>> I need another raise because I need to dress nice.
I got a hot date and I want her to think I'm all that.
Please, please, please!
>> Ba-rian, quit trying to be a money star.
>> But she'll never go out with me unless she thinks I'm boss.
>> I'm the boss, and I'm telling you, you gotta live within your means.
>> Means?
Means?
What do you mean by means?
>> You're overdrawn, money star.
>> Ugh... (cheering) >> Do you know someone who has the money star personality?
>> A money star is someone who thinks the things they have make them a better person.
>> It's almost like they worship money and the illusion of happiness that it brings.
>> The problem is they overspend to try to live that fantasy life.
>> Instead of living in real life.
>> And the debt a money star can rack up is very real and very dangerous.
>> It can ruin your finances and credit early in your life trying to live like a money star.
>> And really, who wants to be friends with people who only like you for what you have?
>> Now, there's nothing wrong with wanting to look good, but you have to live within your means.
>> Where's all the paparazzi?
>> Now he's living the money star dream.
>> What a nightmare.
>> Money star.
>> Hi, my name is Joey Mar.
>> Money star.
>> I like shoes.
>> My name is Kylie Staples and I like shoes even more.
>> Money, money, money star.
>> We are Glow Mo, that's our business, and what we do is we buy limited shoes, or shoes that just came out, and we resell them.
Money star.
>> In my personal collection, I have about 70 pairs of shoes.
>> I have about 50 or 60.
One of my favorites... these are the Carmine Sixes.
I was willing to pay like $280 just to get this one.
>> These ones are probably $450, $500.
I really don't know why they're worth that much.
>> This is my favorite Jordan ever.
This is like my dream shoe.
Comes in pink.
They're special.
I'll have 'em, some day.
It's just all about the sneakers, 'cause that's the only thing that you could tell different from anybody else.
I think the target customer is high schoolers and basketball players and money stars.
It's really a younger market and a lot of these kids, they're still in school, they don't work.
>> Think of creative ways to maintain a money star look.
>> Don't impulse buy and really think it out before you wanna buy your shoes, so if you know you want to buy a shoe, try to set an amount in your head about how much you're willing to spend.
Don't let your money star lifestyle... >> ...get you into financial trouble.
>> And they're off here at Money Downs with a thundering roar.
Heading out of the gate, it's Penny-wise, Pound-foolish, Oblivious, and Money Star.
And that's Money Star taking the early lead.
>> Go, Money Star!
Go, Money Sta... >> Well, here we are courtside for the women's singles tennis event.
>> Well, you know, Mike, I'm having a hard time making out Ms.
Millions.
It seems like there's a bright light coming off of her body.
>> Yes, it is indescribable, Jim.
Can I... can I get some sunglasses?
Yeah, I just really need... Ah, that's... that's much better Mike.
I can tell you now Sabrina Millions has blinded the audience with her expensive accessories.
>> Yes, look at that splashy couture sequined tennis dress she's wearing.
And... who knew you could buy a diamond-studded tennis racket?
>> I didn't.
>> Absolutely not.
You know, Sabrina has always been known for her showy showmanship but she has really outdone herself this time, Jim.
Here comes the serve.
Oh!
And Sabrina Millions misses.
She was blinded by her own bling, Jim.
>> Well, yes, she was, Mike.
Yes, she was.
>> Well, it is all over.
>> Sabrina's taste for being a money star ruined her chances to ever be a tennis star.
>> And as the horses round the turn, it looks like Money Star and Oblivious have fallen behind.
Penny-wise, Pound-foolish pushing hard for the lead.
My... >> Time for another startling adventure with Fast Buck and his faithful horse, Lucky.
>> Okay, Lucky, where's Gabby?
I sent him into town to pick up supplies.
>> He should be here soon, Fast Buck-- ho!
There he is.
>> Howdy, Fast Buck.
Lemme tell you the deal I got on beans.
A hundred cases of beans.
>> Beans?
I hate beans.
>> But beans is good for you.
Yep, bake 'em over the fire and they're mighty tasty.
>> Beans?
I can't eat beans.
>> And I hate beans.
>> Didn't you buy some hay or some oats?
>> Nope.
Just a hundred cases of beans.
>> (whinnies) >> Gabby... >> Everyone likes to save money, and nobody wants to pay too much.
But there's one money personality that takes these measures to the extreme.
>> Do you know someone who's penny-wise, pound-foolish-- what we like to call PWPF?
>> The PWPF goes for the short- term savings, but doesn't realize that they're actually losing money in the long term.
>> They'll buy something on sale in bulk, like soda or candy bars... >> Or toilet paper.
>> And then end up saving it for years.
>> The classic PWPF gets sucked into a sale and then ends up overspending to buy, like, five for the price of three.
>> When they only really need one.
>> Or the PWPF will buy low quality, because it's cheap, and then spend more to repair the item when it's broken.
>> Like the kid who buys the cheapest cell phone plan and then always goes over on her minutes.
>> Hey!
Are you talking about me?
>> Yeah, I'm tired of leaving you messages when you can't pick up my calls.
>> If you're too focused on short term savings, it can really hurt you in the long run.
>> But it's no problem that can't be fixed once you're aware of it.
>> Yeah, just text me.
>> Texting costs too much, so I didn't get it.
>> Hey!
Hey, look out!
>> Good deal there on the TP, PWPF.
>> ROFL.
>> LOL.
>> BRB, I need this.
>> Hi, I'm the coupon kid and I used to be penny-wise, pound-foolish.
I was just buying because shopping is fun.
If I had a coupon, I bought the product.
I wouldn't prepare, I would just go and if I something that I had a coupon for, I would have bought it.
In the beginning I was bringing home bags and bags of stuff.
I always thought it was a good deal because I was saving 50 cents or a dollar on the product.
First, I was buying things that weren't needed by my family.
They were going to waste.
>> Kathleen!
>> I was buying too many of a certain product and too little of what we actually needed.
>> Kathleen!
>> Hey Biz Kids, don't buy things you don't need.
This is where the coupon magic happens.
I started doing more research online to be a better couponer, to save more for my family.
Every week I write down what I'm gonna buy, my coupon amount, and then the total.
The key to couponing is to be organized and prepared, and when you're not prepared, you spend more than you should.
Hey, Biz Kids, don't buy things you don't need.
Let's go find some deals.
So here are the free product coupons where you can today... to get free bandages and free candy.
>> Hey Kathy, you have any coupons for this?
This is $1.12.
>> I have this dollar off coupon, and we can match this with this to get this for 12 cents.
The beginning I was only saving 20 or 30 percent on a product, but now I save 90 percent.
That's a huge difference.
The things I buy for my family now are shampoo, toothpaste, mouthwash, razors, medicine, deodorant, toilet paper, napkins.
There's so much to buy, and there's so much you need, and a lot of people don't realize you spend a lot of money on essentials.
Hi.
>> Hi.
>> Got all of this, starting at $12, and it's all the way down to 93 cents.
The advice I would give to kids out there: if you don't need a product and you buy it, it's not saving, it's wasting.
Coupons are great, but they're useless when you're penny-wise, pound-foolish.
>> Welcome back to the 21st annual Extreme Money Games, and we are just moments away from the 100-meter men's freestyle swim race.
You know, the coaches have done all they can, Jim, and now it's just up to the athletes.
>> Well, that's right, Mike.
These young men have been training for this moment for most of their young lives and I think that... >> I'm sorry, Jim, I need to interrupt you there.
Look at Mark Miser there in lane six, he seems to be having a problem.
>> Well there seems to be a problem with his... with his swim trunks.
It appears that they're a little bit too large.
>> Ah, Miser's been known to buy his swim trunks by price and quantity rather than quality.
There must have been a sale.
>> Well, the swimmers are on their blocks now, they're ready to go, and they're off!
Whoa-ho-ho-ho!
>> That's an unfortunate turn of events.
>> But not entirely unexpected, Jim.
Buying the cheapest product is not always a smart move.
>> Well.
that's right, Mike.
Mark has been known to be penny-wise, pound-foolish in the past, and now he's exposed his money personality to the entire nation, quite literally.
>> Will someone get that boy some pants?
>> That fit!
>> Hey, look at this, girl in the plaid dress.
Take a look at all these bananas I bought.
They were really cheap.
'Course they're kinda rotten.
But what a great deal.
Would you like one?
>> Hey there, Ryan.
>> Hey, Jason.
>> Okay, let's do this.
>> Oh, I guess.
>> Boy, those are really puny punches.
>> Sorry, I'm just kind of bummed out.
>> What's wrong?
>> I just found out what my money personality is.
>> Oh yeah?
>> Yeah, I thought I was a Biz Kid.
>> A Biz Kid?
>> Yeah, like I know what I spend and I earn.
>> But you're not a Biz Kid.
>> No, it turns out I'm penny-wise, pound-foolish.
>> Did you say "pound"?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
(bell rings) >> Welcome to The Personality Game.
Today we have three different people with three very different money personalities.
Money Star.
Penny-wise, Pound-foolish.
And Oblivious.
(crickets chirping) Now, Cheryl needs to pick the one with the most desirable money personality.
Let's get right to it.
>> Money Star, if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?
>> I'd be somethin' expensive, somethin' like Brazilian rosewood, perhaps Chinese teak.
>> Ooh.
Penny-wise, Pound-foolish, same question.
>> A dogwood.
They've got a sale down at... at the garden store.
And you could get a whole forest for cheap.
But they're not really great for this climate.
>> Oblivious?
>> Huh?
>> Okay, stay with us, Oblivious.
>> Oblivious?
>> Huh?
>> Love that show.
You know, I used to be a money star back in the day.
Loved the fine suits.
Soon I ran into financial difficulties and quickly realized I needed to do a better job balancing spending and savings.
Once I did that, I had a plan for a sound financial future.
Like this kid.
>> I'm Steven, and what's my money personality?
I'm the Biz Kid.
I'm the founder of Tattoo ID.
We make temporary safety tattoos for children, featuring their child's initials and their parents' phone number.
I have a little brother, and he actually wandered off one day when while we were outside.
So I thought, "What's a cool way to keep him secure?"
So I came up with these tattoos, which keep him safe just in case.
When I was younger, I use to just have, like, stacks of cash in my house and I thought I was cool.
Eventually my parents talked to me, they told me, you now, you never know when it's going to be a rainy day and you're going to need that cash that you saved up from before.
And this really helped me to, you know, lower how much I was spending and really allocate and balance my budget.
Personal spending, I don't spend much on myself.
You know, I spend it on transportation, school.
And other times everything goes towards my business.
I didn't know how to balance my budgets.
By spending less on myself and more towards my businesses, I probably wouldn't have the business where it is today.
The advice I have for kids is to learn to balance their budgets, is don't spend too much on yourself, think about the future.
Like, save up that money for college, not blow your money on all this stuff that you don't really need.
Find the right balance, Biz Kid!
>> They're coming down to the wire and it's... SeaBizKid!
>> And final question... >> Penny-wise, Pound-foolish, if your friends ditched you at a party, how would you get home?
>> That... that is a very timely question, because I have all these... these bus coupons, but I think they're about to expire.
I got a great deal for 'em, though.
>> Money Star, what about you?
>> I'd catch a cab.
I never take the bus.
>> What if you didn't have enough money to take a cab?
>> I'd throw it on the credit card, baby.
>> Oblivious?
>> I thought I had enough money for the bus.
>> So, now it's time for you to choose.
>> Well, Money Star would be fun until he went bankrupt.
Penny-wise, Pound-foolish is a short-term saver who ends up spending more money in the long term.
And Oblivious is just, well, oblivious.
>> Your choice.
>> I wouldn't pick any of these losers.
But I do have some questions for you.
>> Huh?
>> And now it's time for another Biz Kids Biz Quiz.
The Biz Kid money personality is A: Oblivious to what they spend, B: Blows cash like a money star, C: Saves money to the point of obsession, or D: A balance of all the above.
If you answered D, now that's thinking like a Biz Kid.
And really, who's never been oblivious once and while.
I remember this one time... >> Oblivious.
Money star.
PWPF.
Just to name a few.
Once you become aware of your money personality type, you can begin to take some steps to fight your worst habits.
Money star, your spending to be cool is running you into a financial black hole.
Penny-wise, pound-foolish, come on.
There's cheap, and then there's you.
And if you don't know which category you fall into, you may just be oblivious.
Remember, only when you begin to take control of your money and financial life can you truly become a Biz Kid.
>> Just balanced my checkbook.
>> Nice shoes.
Was gonna get a pair myself, but they're so trendy.
>> Yeah, but they match my eyes.
What?
I'm not allowed to have one little splurge?
>> How much did they cost?
>> Oh, I haven't looked at the receipt.
But I will once I...
what?!
(cell phone rings) Hello?
>> Hi, there's this really great deal.
>> Five for the price of three?
Hold them for me.
Oh, come on!
>> Well, I guess more work needs to be done.
Remember, it's all about finding the right balance.
(crashing) >> And now let's blow everybody a big kiss.
>> Oblivious.
Oblivious.
Oblivious.
>> Boink.
Boink.
Boink.
>> Money star.
Money star.
>> Penny-wise.
>> Money star.
>> Pound-foolish.
Silence!
>> Boink.
>> Guys, I'd like to thank you all very much for being part of my candy experiment.
>> Huh?
What?
>> Boink.
>> I was trying to find out what kind of money personalities you had.
>> This was an experiment, and you didn't tell us?
>> This wont look good.
>> What does this say about your money personality?
(crow cawing) >> Are you a kid that runs a successful business?
>> If so, then go to BizKids.com.
>> We want to hear all about it.
Like, are you hiring?
>> Wait, are you looking for a job?
>> No, just go to BizKids.com and you could be on the show.
>> That's BizKids.com.
What?
>> Nothing.
>> Production funding and educational outreach for Biz Kids is provided by a coalition of America's Credit Unions, where people are worth more than money.
A complete list of individual credit union funders is available at WXXI.org.
>> Every day, America's Credit Unions help members with their financial needs and with programs like Invest in America.
It's only fitting that credit unions support Biz Kids because financial education is what we do.
Learn more at lovemycreditunion.org.
>> Hooray!
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Hit the road in a classic car for a tour through Great Britain with two antiques experts.
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